If clay holds cations why don't we add a little to our soilless mixes?

[flylowgethigh]

My efforts to loosen up clay with compost have been dire. It seems that to fix up 1Kg of clay, needs perhaps 1Kg of compost. However, clay must have 3 times the SG and I would like to see the top 6" come good. So, maybe, I need 18" of compost. Which is unrealistic to walk a mile with.
I have filled 10L holes with 50/50 mix, and a couple of seasons later the clay has taken in. Somehow liquefied over the winters. Run through the compost, and dropped in the hole a long way. Which is where the 3:1 ratio idea is coming from. Years on, having turned these holes again, adding more compost, I really need to reevaluate that ratio again. As it's really not happening. Though the ground is changing colour, it is still clay.

I plan to use a 12" dia auger to drill holes into the red clay, and put a chunk of wood on the bottom of the hole and let the composted wood chips mix in the hole also with the loosened clay. It takes a LOT of the organic material to break up the clay bonds I think. Huegelkulture = 'termite tek' I think.

 

[RobFromTX]

I use one of 3 different choices. Happy Frog or Roots Organic or Ocean Forest is used for the core. Roots Organic is my fav but they all work very well. Here are the ingredients of each mix.

Ocean Forest is aged forest products, sphagnum peat moss, earthworm castings, bat guano, fish emulsion, and crab meal. Aged forest products, sandy loam, and sphagnum peat.

Roots Organic is Perlite, coco fiber, peat moss, composted forest material, pumice, worm castings, bat guano, soybean meal, alfalfa meal, fishbone meal, kelp meal, greensand, mycorrhizal fungi.

Happy Frog is Composted forest humus, sphagnum peat moss, perlite, earthworm castings, bat guano, humic acid (derived from Leonardite), oyster shell and dolomite lime (for pH adjustment).

Roots organic sounds great but somebody on another thread mentioned it came with bugs? Im using happy frog for the first and last time. Its not near as aerated as the ocean forest and its burning my seedlings. Its highly rated so i know it has its place. Maybe it just doesnt go well with landrace sativas

 

[flylowgethigh]

If was gonna buy soil I would try the BAS 3.0 mix. I just keep recycling and amending my own. I need to send some to Logan Labs and see what they think.

 

[Growdo Baggins]

Watch out for horse manure if they spray 'graze-on' to kill weeds in the pasture. The stuff is edible Round-up, and will pass through the animals guts and still kill plants.

I actually didn't use the house manure for that reason, for a while. Then I asked her about her hay fields, the hay that the horses eat. She said all they spread is fertilizer. I started using the hay and the manure after that. I dug out her stalls a few weeks ago and found the absolute oldest and hardest manure I've ever seen. It's 23 years old! I made a compost pile with it.

 

[Creeperpark]

Roots organic sounds great but somebody on another thread mentioned it came with bugs? Im using happy frog for the first and last time. Its not near as aerated as the ocean forest and its burning my seedlings. Its highly rated so i know it has its place. Maybe it just doesnt go well with landrace sativas

You can't overwater those Rob because every time you over water you will release nutrients. If an organic mix is over-watered, wet it will become too hot. If you weigh the small cups you will see how to water the organic mix without over-watering. When the plants go into a 1-gallon container you will know from weighing the dixie cups how to water,.

I've used Roots many times and have never seen any bugs. I know of some people overwatering Roots and getting gnats from wet soil. Roots is the best in my book for an Organic mix.

 

[Creeperpark]

What about acidic clay, is it good to use? I used to add some to my soil mixes for CEC and micronutrients. Didn't find many info or studies on this, tho.

I'm not really sure exploziv because I always use alkaline.

 

[troutman]

Don't use more than 10% clay until you figure it all out.

 

[Growdo Baggins]

Roots organic sounds great but somebody on another thread mentioned it came with bugs? Im using happy frog for the first and last time. Its not near as aerated as the ocean forest and its burning my seedlings. Its highly rated so i know it has its place. Maybe it just doesnt go well with landrace sativas

Ocean forest has always messed with my seedlings, I think bc is so charged. They'll be wonky as hell but they grow out of it. My last bag of happy frog had these little tiny white balls in it. I email fix farms and they asked some questions but nothing ever came of it. Fast forward to me using it and before I even took the dome off I had a bug eating my tiny ass little seedling.

On a podcast a guy said he dries out all bagged soil he gets before he ever uses it. It seems like a good idea. I'm going to do that with the rest of that bag of happy frog and use it for my tomato seedlings. Now I'm doing living soil and don't plan to ever need any more bags

 

[RobFromTX]

Ocean forest has always messed with my seedlings, I think bc is so charged. They'll be wonky as hell but they grow out of it. My last bag of happy frog had these little tiny white balls in it. I email fix farms and they asked some questions but nothing ever came of it. Fast forward to me using it and before I even took the dome off I had a bug eating my tiny ass little seedling.

On a podcast a guy said he dries out all bagged soil he gets before he ever uses it. It seems like a good idea. I'm going to do that with the rest of that bag of happy frog and use it for my tomato seedlings. Now I'm doing living soil and don't plan to ever need any more bags

That sounds like a great idea indeed That would definitely take care of bug or developing mold problems.

 

[Creeperpark]

I'm working with heavy clay outside too and working in organic material as Icanget it. I'm just now starting this garden. We bought the house last year. I've got a bunch of compost piles and a couple pretty large leaf piles going, but other than the one compost pile I started last year, none of is ready. The leaves will be 2 years before they're broken down. I did find some really dark rich soil loaded with worms and other insects on my neighbors horse farm, but getting it over to my house isn't super easy, so it's a slow process of building more garden area for me.

Super good deal. I remember when I started on building new soil.

If you can shread your leaves with a lawn mower they will break down fast in a year.

Please try some peat moss friend in one area and see what your clay will do. Peat moss is cheap and easy to spread. Just spread 1 big bale over a 10X10ft and work it in the soil.

Ocean forest has always messed with my seedlings, I think bc is so charged. They'll be wonky as hell but they grow out of it. My last bag of happy frog had these little tiny white balls in it. I email fix farms and they asked some questions but nothing ever came of it. Fast forward to me using it and before I even took the dome off I had a bug eating my tiny ass little seedling.

On a podcast a guy said he dries out all bagged soil he gets before he ever uses it. It seems like a good idea. I'm going to do that with the rest of that bag of happy frog and use it for my tomato seedlings. Now I'm doing living soil and don't plan to ever need any more bags

If you use Ocean Forest you need to use Dixie cups to start with and weigh the cups. Using large amounts of soil with small plants is the problem. Not the soil. When you have more soil than the plant needs and water the soil you will burn the plant from releasing too many salts. Keep the seedlings in small amounts of soil and you won't have problems.

Seedlings can live 30 days in a dixie cup of Ocean Forest with just water.

 

[Creeperpark]

Growdo you can check out how I use FoxFarms only as a core without clay on Creeper is creeping again.

 

[BuckeyeGreen]

A handful of clay in a whole bale of Pro Mix would have no discernible affect. Anything you add to a soilless mix that would slow drainage in anyway would be detrimental to the plant. In this case a handful would be such a small amount when added to a full bale of Pro Mix that it would have no provable positive affect or any affect at all due to the fact that it’s such a small amount in comparison to the total amount of soilless mix.

A 400% improvement would be an unprecedented thing in the plant world and would be HUGE news. I talked to my soil scientist friend about this and he burst out laughing. He asked me where in the world did I read that? I told him and he laughed even harder.

He said that was total nonsense and if that were the case the horticultural world would have discovered this decades ago. He said the amount of double blind testing that has been done over the years mixing soil types and soilless mixes is staggering. He said if this were the case greenhouses and large scale growers around the world would be doing this today. People don’t seem to realize the amazing amount of scientific work and study that has been done over the years regarding soil.

Horticultural businesses around the world is a 20 billion dollar industry projected to be 40 billion by 2026. The worldwide farming industry is trillions of dollars each year.
Industries of this magnitude are looking for any little thing that might increase production and the health of their plants. The soil science world has been working and testing for decades exploring every aspect of plant life in order to improve these industries. A 400% increase in production would be headlining, worldwide news!

This is well meaning, well intentioned information provided by members and I respect those good intentions but this is classic bro science.

 

[Creeperpark]

A handful of clay in a whole bale of Pro Mix would have no discernible affect. Anything you add to a soilless mix that would slow drainage in anyway would be detrimental to the plant. In this case a handful would be such a small amount when added to a full bale of Pro Mix that it would have no provable positive affect or any affect at all due to the fact that it’s such a small amount in comparison to the total amount of soilless mix.

A 400% improvement would be an unprecedented thing in the plant world and would be HUGE news. I talked to my soil scientist friend about this and he burst out laughing. He asked me where in the world did I read that? I told him and he laughed even harder.

He said that was total nonsense and if that were the case the horticultural world would have discovered this decades ago. He said the amount of double blind testing that has been done over the years mixing soil types and soilless mixes is staggering. He said if this were the case greenhouses and large scale growers around the world would be doing this today. People don’t seem to realize the amazing amount of scientific work and study that has been done over the years regarding soil.

Horticultural businesses around the world is a 20 billion dollar industry projected to be 40 billion by 2026. The worldwide farming industry is trillions of dollars each year.
Industries of this magnitude are looking for any little thing that might increase production and the health of their plants. The soil science world has been working and testing for decades exploring every aspect of plant life in order to improve these industries. A 400% increase in production would be headlining, worldwide news!

This is well meaning, well intentioned information provided by members and I respect those good intentions but this is classic bro science.

Well, let me see your plants before you criticize others, friends. Your words are meaning less because you have nothing to back up your mouth. You can look at my Media anytime you like and see my results. Friend, I looked at your media and I see nothing. So Keep your words to yourself unless you can back them up.

Jealousy comes in many forms and I want to thank you for that friend. That means more to me than compliments.

 

[flylowgethigh]

A handful of clay in a whole bale of Pro Mix would have no discernible affect. Anything you add to a soilless mix that would slow drainage in anyway would be detrimental to the plant. In this case a handful would be such a small amount when added to a full bale of Pro Mix that it would have no provable positive affect or any affect at all due to the fact that it’s such a small amount in comparison to the total amount of soilless mix.

A 400% improvement would be an unprecedented thing in the plant world and would be HUGE news. I talked to my soil scientist friend about this and he burst out laughing. He asked me where in the world did I read that? I told him and he laughed even harder.

He said that was total nonsense and if that were the case the horticultural world would have discovered this decades ago. He said the amount of double blind testing that has been done over the years mixing soil types and soilless mixes is staggering. He said if this were the case greenhouses and large scale growers around the world would be doing this today. People don’t seem to realize the amazing amount of scientific work and study that has been done over the years regarding soil.

Horticultural businesses around the world is a 20 billion dollar industry projected to be 40 billion by 2026. The worldwide farming industry is trillions of dollars each year.
Industries of this magnitude are looking for any little thing that might increase production and the health of their plants. The soil science world has been working and testing for decades exploring every aspect of plant life in order to improve these industries. A 400% increase in production would be headlining, worldwide news!

This is well meaning, well intentioned information provided by members and I respect those good intentions but this is classic bro science.

The commercial farming industry is based on Round-up, at least corn is.

What acts as the cation in a soil-less mix?

 

[Ca++]

I plan to use a 12" dia auger to drill holes into the red clay, and put a chunk of wood on the bottom of the hole and let the composted wood chips mix in the hole also with the loosened clay. It takes a LOT of the organic material to break up the clay bonds I think. Huegelkulture = 'termite tek' I think.

I can't be sure what happened, but on one site we did something similar, and created a stink so bad a friends hand swelled up. I think the clay sealed the hole, and the material within had no oxygen. It wasn't the right type of composting.

The holes idea was early years, if we are talking the type a 12" might be used for. That wet winter thing made a hole impossible to maintain, as clay would move in from surrounding it. The clay was tough as bricks, yet when wet it's seemed to be fluid. No grain to it.

I had to view the spaces as a whole, and settle with working to a depth I could manage. If you look at allotments, a rotorvator is only working the top 6" Or look at a farmer, as he ploughs a field over. He has a lorry to bring in amendments, but still works just the top soil. Many are careful they don't get too deep and bring up a lot of clay from below their managed top soil.

From a maths angle, fixing the top 6" is half the work of fixing the top 12"
Our plants will root off to where the food is good. People talk of seeds tapping down, but if it's solid clay the root systems I see are pretty much surface. The clay isn't ideal for them, when the upper surface has been worked. You can work the top, getting deeper over the years. You don't loose it, as you do with holes. It's where I'm shallow working that plots are changing colour over time. Getting the soil-like texture we want, though it's a long term mission and surrounding terrain has lost some sites before I made any great progress. I am carrying sacks though. I have no wheels that can get there. Like the farmer, who still works his top soil. Growing analogues like maize.

Your local farming practices might be of interest.

 

[RobFromTX]

You can't overwater those Rob because every time you over water you will release nutrients. If an organic mix is over-watered, wet it will become too hot. If you weigh the small cups you will see how to water the organic mix without over-watering. When the plants go into a 1-gallon container you will know from weighing the dixie cups how to water,.

I've used Roots many times and have never seen any bugs. I know of some people overwatering Roots and getting gnats from wet soil. Roots is the best in my book for an Organic mix.

Not to take the thread off subject but which roots soil do you use? They have original and greenfields listed online. I think ill use this to up pot my honduran sativas

 

[cola]

On my property I have red clay, yellow clay, and gray gumbo clay. Plus this white stuff that is solidified something with shells in it. The red clay is the good stuff, but needs a bunch of humis. And lime. I suspect the positive calcium ions are attaching to the clay and helping break the electrical bonds between clay particles, but no idea really. I had to use a lot of the yellow stuff as topsoil to level a spot, and it needs a lot of help.

When they say forest material, they mean tree trimmings. Any kind of trees. I tell the wood chip guy only hardwoods no pine. Pine is acidic also.

Yep. In my experience the reddish clay is the best to work with. Composted manure and peat blended seems to do a really fine job feeding plants. They gray is almost unworkable. I've tried a few things, but it's a more tedious process.

 

[Growdo Baggins]

I guess I'm lucky bc I have red clay where I'm at. I've been told by the ext office to just add organic matter and I should be good. But I'm going to play around with soil testing and remineralization outside in my garden. I got a test for my indoor living soil too, but I didn't try that on my own. I don't know what target levels to hit for cannabis. They got a little bit of science worked out on this so I followed a soil recipe put together by KiS organics for my living soil. I haven't started in it yet though.

 

[Creeperpark]

Not to take the thread off subject but which roots soil do you use? They have original and greenfields listed online. I think ill use this to up pot my honduran sativas

Original

 

[Creeperpark]

I guess I'm lucky bc I have red clay where I'm at. I've been told by the ext office to just add organic matter and I should be good. But I'm going to play around with soil testing and remineralization outside in my garden. I got a test for my indoor living soil too, but I didn't try that on my own. I don't know what target levels to hit for cannabis. They got a little bit of science worked out on this so I followed a soil recipe put together by KiS organics for my living soil. I haven't started in it yet though.

If you add Canadian peat moss to your red clay you will boost the CEC like crazy. Use one large bale @ 10x10 area. Put it out a few weeks before planting and you will be blown away with amazement later in the year. .