LED and BUD QUALITY

[FletchF.Fletch]

Spectrum is important. Also it seems to me that the margin for error is smaller, wiggle-room is tighter (meaning the range of acceptable/ideal conditions), and the forgiveness factor (on the part of our plants in Flower) is almost nonexistent under LED vs. HPS. Metal Halides grew killer tight budded sticky back in the day.

 

[delta9nxs]

@snakedope there are 3840 diodes and they are .456 watts each. i don't have a clue as to the manufacturer. it's whoever is making these for Walmart. undoubtedly china.

editing to correct diode number

 

[delta9nxs]

@Hammerhead i'm not saying anything negative here just sharing my own experience. we are all looking for answers.

i built this light specifically to experiment with the spectrum and power levels.

 

[FletchF.Fletch]

Same cut, top shot is 3 weeks ahead. Playing with spectrum by adding extra UV and Red with Coral T5HOs, and extra Red at 630 and 660 with T5HOs for the younger Twins. Base lights are Hortilux 350Ascend in the Coral Reefer Corner, and Hortilux 240R in the Red Zone. Happy with LEDs, but understanding the Tech is still developing.

 

[snakedope]

FletchF, your ideas are on par with the bud we see nowadays, im used to killer sticky bud, with funky smell that poison the whole room, the kind of bud that make your paranoia go through the roof, anxiety is running down your neck, your heart is pounding, your mind is buzzin... and all of this happens while your on the couch haha.. im used to go to the post office to get my mail and always someone around the corner is waiting to ask me what is that funky smell that surround me everywhere i go today ? i just dont get this anymore from bud that other growers grow or my LED grows (thats why i only tried it for 2 cycles, and bunked it back to HIDs)

Something has changed, in the side of growers i only know that LED is now the king of the entire cycle in at least 90% of growers ops
At the consumer side, quality has gone down to a no selling point like Canary has mentioned
The market has blown, not just in my country, but worldwide, demand is way up there, money is up for grabs, people are going to cut corners, we feel it in the final product.

Early harvest eliminate any ripe features, trim machines destroy the structure and sift a lot of the glue, and like Canary has said, LED is the strew that broke the camels back
Each lowering the quality in its own proportions, with LED changing the process of the plants defensive reactions (glue forming) by manipulating light output and materials that create that light.

Maybe the answer really is that 95% of people just dont know how to grow with LEDs ?
I can say with a whole heart that my HPS flowers are 2 weeks old right now and look, smell, stick better then most of the finished bud around my country, which baffle me to be honest because 1 year ago everyone here had killer sticky funky bud.

 

[snakedope]

@snakedope there are 3840 diodes and they are .456 watts each. i don't have a clue as to the manufacturer. it's whoever is making these for Walmart. undoubtedly china.

editing to correct diode number

So i did the math, you have something like 190K LM total, 50LM each diode roughly
This you claim give you 1500 ppfd at 26 inch height ? at whole canopy space ?

 

[delta9nxs]

@snakedope actually 1500 umols dead center at 26" produces about 1250 at the edges but i can even out the readings by adding this 16" reflectix curtain.

editing to say that lumen are a measurement of light at the source and umols are measurements taken at the target.

 

[snakedope]

I dont get the idea of this... the whole purpose of LED is spread
you took 1700w and put it all in a 4x4 or a 5x5 ?
my 750w led panel is "state of the art" diodes and MW drivers, and i push 1400 maybe if i believe the mfg at 10 inch height... so you push 1500 with chinese diodes at 26 inch height
Am i missing something ? i think someone is lying, and its not me or you, its the light mfgs.

 

[snakedope]

editing to say that lumen are a measurement of light at the source and umols are measurements taken at the target.

Be more specific, Lumen are your starting point, after you divide the inital lm count upon a surface then you get the ppfd, which is only an avg of how many lm falls on a surface, that avg can change depending on height, more or less measauring points, area to be covered and so on
each lamp has its umol or ppfd rating that applies to a given surface based on its initial power, which to be honest ? dosent mean anything to the avg grower.
Why ? because umols and ppfd are tested at specific conditions that apply to the one testing them.
lets say a 600w hid is tested and yields 1200 umol, next a 600w LED is tested and gets 1500 umol (like delta), but how can that be ? if i take a 600w HID lamp, and measure 2 inch below it, i will have more then 25000 umol maybe more, it cant be more then the inital count of the lamp im measuring (taking into account reflector losses), if i measure a LED panel at 2 inch height i will get 40-50 umol, that is the starting point of the diode, so they take the 40 lm starting point, add the math to 40 lm x 30 or whatever number of diodes that are in the cone of the sensor and tell you look ! you have here 1500 ppfd, at this very spot !
The whole story is based upon a false presumption, that you can add LM\PPFD\UMOL call it what u will.
Every good light guy knows, you cannot add LM, and this is the problem, all LED mfg keeps adding the LM...
So, you create a blanket of light which the source of it is very low as one, and very high when added, but just like i said above, in the same way your 300 or how many diodes are not in 1 place\source, you cannot say you have the intensity of them all at 1 place at all times.

In simple words, what u end up with is 300 small 40 lm lamps that are unable to saturate each place because they are scattered all around, only by adding the lm\light you can get to these figures which is not possible.
The result of this is not enough saturation and intensity for each of the plants to develop its protection\defense (trichomes) sufficiently.

 

[Ca++]

candela-lumen-umol
It's the progression of time. Different measuring systems we can use. You can convert between them roughly. Lumen is used to measure what we can see, and umol is a measurement of PAR light. Generally about the same colours covered, but we can talk about colours we can't see using umol.

You can talk about the number of photons emitted from a lamp in umol per second terms. Then you can talk about surface illumination in terms of photon density, like umol/d
You can talk about lumens from a lamp, or lumens falling upon an area. L/m2 is what our meters are telling us.



1000umol at source, spread over 1m2 = 1000umol/d illumination.
Spread a 1000 umol lamp over 2 meters, and you have 500 umol/d
No need for hands or feet. That will not be easy at all.

 

[Snipp]

@snakedope so you saying everyone who does not agree to your believings is lying? Just because they sell you bad weed?

I see some really good answers with background, but no real arguments from yours. Just complaining - it's just not the same anymore - is not a valid one.

 

[Ca++]

What on earth are you talking about?!

My RH% is around 60%+ atm. so you're just making things up.
Maybe you shouldn’t assume so much about people’s situation when you start writing your lectures, it just makes you look silly..

I have grown plants in soil and coco side by side in low RH% and high RH% and the coco plant can stay alot closer to the cob light in both environments

Have you personally grown the same cuts or any plants side by side in coco/hydro and in soil? ...or are you just repeating stuff you have read from the internet or learned in school?

They are your numbers repeated over years of posting. I have seen you withholding these figures in talks, to avoid hearing a different story. Jumping up and down as someone figured out your grow over months of you dropping little bits. Right now you are doing that fan on, fan off thing, because you won't buy a controller to do it properly. You need a good lecturing. Have you got a light meter yet?

You keep telling this hot photon story like you're trolling. Not a single person is along for the ride. Over half a dozen people have told you.

You are fundamentally challanged if you think my knowledge aligns with what you didn't hear properly at school. I think the most obvious thing going on here is that you really don't want to challenge what you think you know. I have only seen this with blind faith before. Not blind faith in yourself though. You are very interesting in that respect. I will keep watching, and replying, which you shouldn't think is for you.

 

[Brother Nature]

Weird thread, needs more photos...

Not sure if it's been stated in this thread previously, but there is also a link between the UV produced by HPS/MH and the smell of cannabis grown that way. LED's do not produce UV on their own.

 

[snakedope]

@snakedope so you saying everyone who does not agree to your believings is lying? Just because they sell you bad weed?

I see some really good answers with background, but no real arguments from yours. Just complaining - it's just not the same anymore - is not a valid one.

Did i say that ? or you ?
Where are the good answers with background if you can point me to them i must be blind not to see
So, me, a person with over 20 years of smoking killer bud, telling you its not the same, not by 10% but by 90% is not valid... Sorry that i dont meet the validation stds of Snipp GTFO

So now all my light arguments mean nothing to you ?
Now you make me sad.
Dont forget 1 thing, its their numbers and values, not mine.
if a 750w state of the art
led panel gives you 1400 at 10 inch height, what will it do for you at 26 inch ? give you 1500 ? i doubt it.

You keep telling this hot photon story like you're trolling. Not a single person is along for the ride. Over half a dozen people have told you.

I also dont buy in to this Hot Photon story..
From my research i found that the materials that make the diodes are mostly heavy metals, alloys and structures that are used to make microwaves engines, this whole LED tech is based upon microwave research, this light is destructive, not natural, natural light is - magnetism(the sun) + noble gases(the atmosphere).
Non of those exist in LED tech.
Thats the reason when you get it close the plants will die.

 

[snakedope]

Weird thread, needs more photos...

Not sure if it's been stated in this thread previously, but there is also a link between the UV produced by HPS/MH and the smell of cannabis grown that way. LED's do not produce UV on their own.

Change the LEDs you have for HIDs while theres still time my friend, you have no glue on your bud.

 

[Cerathule]

Be more specific, Lumen are your starting point, after you divide the inital lm count upon a surface then you get the ppfd, which is only an avg of how many lm falls on a surface, that avg can change depending on height, more or less measauring points, area to be covered and so on
each lamp has its umol or ppfd rating that applies to a given surface based on its initial power, which to be honest ? dosent mean anything to the avg grower.
Why ? because umols and ppfd are tested at specific conditions that apply to the one testing them.
lets say a 600w hid is tested and yields 1200 umol, next a 600w LED is tested and gets 1500 umol (like delta), but how can that be ? if i take a 600w HID lamp, and measure 2 inch below it, i will have more then 25000 umol maybe more, it cant be more then the inital count of the lamp im measuring (taking into account reflector losses), if i measure a LED panel at 2 inch height i will get 40-50 umol, that is the starting point of the diode, so they take the 40 lm starting point, add the math to 40 lm x 30 or whatever number of diodes that are in the cone of the sensor and tell you look ! you have here 1500 ppfd, at this very spot !
The whole story is based upon a false presumption, that you can add LM\PPFD\UMOL call it what u will.
Every good light guy knows, you cannot add LM, and this is the problem, all LED mfg keeps adding the LM...
So, you create a blanket of light which the source of it is very low as one, and very high when added, but just like i said above, in the same way your 300 or how many diodes are not in 1 place\source, you cannot say you have the intensity of them all at 1 place at all times.

In simple words, what u end up with is 300 small 40 lm lamps that are unable to saturate each place because they are scattered all around, only by adding the lm\light you can get to these figures which is not possible.
The result of this is not enough saturation and intensity for each of the plants to develop its protection\defense (trichomes) sufficiently.

This has all been explained to you back then in the other thread

LED puts out way more light than HID

You replace 600W HPS SE (900umol max) with 750W LED (!) which is actually designed to replace a 1000W HPS DE.

 

[Cerathule]

the point i'm getting at is that we need higher power lights to grow the best quality. and some, but i don't know how much, far-red.

Bugbee recommends up to 20% of the total SPD, but this is a number from his investigations into the Emerson-Effect, where he did a thorough job but focused mainly in carbon-fixation and total plant-mass.
Indoors 730nm can cause excessive stretching and have some other major photomorphogenic consequences, that may weigh or factor in higher/severe than the bonus from light-reaction 1 & 2.

That said, the farred causes a phytochtome response that peaks between 720-730nm.
Plants measure not only the colour-ratios of the spectrum but also the irradiance. Bluntly speaking some lightcolours are perceived differently in a low-light setting than under a high irradiance. Accordingly phytochrome have several different fluence response. Excessive farred can only be applied at a fullstrength illumination at regions where the sun is - +1000ppfd at least. But any indoor light will diminish with distance leaving the middle and lower parts with far less, while the sun, if she comes through, is at +1500ppfd regardless of plant height.

The sun has even more farred (700-800nm) included than any known growlight, and a red-to-farred ratio of 1.2:1, but won't cause this excessive stretching. Also has UV/blue that may counter-balance that.

 

[GoatCheese]

They are your numbers repeated over years of posting. I have seen you withholding these figures in talks, to avoid hearing a different story. Jumping up and down as someone figured out your grow over months of you dropping little bits. Right now you are doing that fan on, fan off thing, because you won't buy a controller to do it properly. You need a good lecturing. Have you got a light meter yet?

You keep telling this hot photon story like you're trolling. Not a single person is along for the ride. Over half a dozen people have told you.

You are fundamentally challanged if you think my knowledge aligns with what you didn't hear properly at school. I think the most obvious thing going on here is that you really don't want to challenge what you think you know. I have only seen this with blind faith before. Not blind faith in yourself though. You are very interesting in that respect. I will keep watching, and replying, which you shouldn't think is for you.

First..

Were you too high or drunk when you wrote that? I can barely understand what you’re trying to say.

Your post has nothing to do with the topic which is leds and bud quality.
..so my reply to you is off topic too. But lets hope if someone reads this, that they atleast get a laugh out of it ,cause you’re such a turkey.

::

“They are your numbers repeated over years of posting.”

Maybe i moved to another country since the first led-post i made!? How would you know, did you ask?

When i wrote about 20% RH in my apartment- not my grow tent and cab - i was talking about the winter times over here, asshole. Now it’s late summer over here and around 23c outside today. F U

:::

WITHHOLD

” refuse to give (something that is due to or is desired by another).”

It’s a difficult word for you, ay?

Obviously, since you pretend to know the environment in my bloom tent – i don’t have a grow room as you wrongly claimed ..again – i haven’t withheld anyone my temp and RH% numbers then, have i??! Idiot.

Here’s the latest for you, two-bit: 27c-28c and 65-70% RH yesterday in my bloom tent. Why would i refuse to tell people that info? And i can’t remember anyone ever asking me.

And since i don’t own a ppfd meter and so i don’t know the numbers, obviously i’m not ‘withholding’ the information from you ..you f-ing idiot.

...see how silly you are? You can’t even use the word ‘withhold’ in the right context.

::::

Since you know i couldn’t tell people my ppfd numbers, you should then also know the reason why i refuse to buy a ppfd meter. = I can’t raise the cobs in my tent and veg cab any higher and i already can’t use as much power as i’d want to - knowing the ppfd reading isn’t gonna change anything for me. What am i gonna use the meter for?
I’m not gonna buy a ppfd meter only because some two-bit on ICMAG wants to know the reading. F U

:::

I stopped reading your post when you started claiming i have 30% RH in my tent..

Since you know i use a timer on my exhaust to control the temps and RH in my tent a smarter person than you should be able to conclude i have taken temps and the RH% into account. Understand what i mean? You didn't teach me anything new. F U

See how f-ing silly you are? You’re so ignorant and arrogant that it’s funny. What a silly person you are.

:::

“Hot photons” ... You just made that up, didn’t you. PM me the post where i supposedly used that term.

If photons aren’t heat-carriers why do you think it gets warmer during day time and colder during the night?

So, half a dozen idiots on ICMAG + you don’t understand that the photons out of the Sun actually warm up the atmosphere!! Hah-hah ..You’re such simpletons, the lot of you. The Magnificent Seven!

Go read the led diffuser-thread again for what i said about photons. I’m not gonna repeat it here and i got nothing more to add.

:::

Since you didn’t want to reply to me when i asked HAVE YOU PERSONALLY GROWN PLANTS SIDE BY SIDE IN COCO/HYDRO VS. SOIL

..i gather that you haven’t. Let’s continue the convo when you have, kid.



Stop with the false claims about me. That's not too cool. PM me if you want to continue this stupidity.

The topic of this thread is leds and bud quality.

F OFF, two-bit

 

[GoatCheese]

I also dont buy in to this Hot Photon story..
From my research i found that the materials that make the diodes are mostly heavy metals, alloys and structures that are used to make microwaves engines, this whole LED tech is based upon microwave research, this light is destructive, not natural, natural light is - magnetism(the sun) + noble gases(the atmosphere).
Non of those exist in LED tech.
Thats the reason when you get it close the plants will die.

Here’s NASA explaining it for you..

“Electromagnetic radiation can be described in terms of a stream of mass-less particles, called photons, each traveling in a wave-like pattern at the speed of light. Each photon contains a certain amount of energy. The different types of radiation are defined by the the amount of energy found in the photons. Radio waves have photons with low energies, microwave photons have a little more energy than radio waves, infrared photons have still more, then visible, ultraviolet, X-rays, and, the most energetic of all, gamma-rays.”

https://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/science/toolbox/emspectrum1.html

PS.
Ask the other guy what he means with "hot photons" cause i have never used that term.

 

[Snipp]

Did i say that ? or you ?
Where are the good answers with background if you can point me to them i must be blind not to see
So, me, a person with over 20 years of smoking killer bud, telling you its not the same, not by 10% but by 90% is not valid... Sorry that i dont meet the validation stds of Snipp GTFO

So now all my light arguments mean nothing to you ?
Now you make me sad.
Dont forget 1 thing, its their numbers and values, not mine.
if a 750w state of the art
led panel gives you 1400 at 10 inch height, what will it do for you at 26 inch ? give you 1500 ? i doubt it.



I also dont buy in to this Hot Photon story..
From my research i found that the materials that make the diodes are mostly heavy metals, alloys and structures that are used to make microwaves engines, this whole LED tech is based upon microwave research, this light is destructive, not natural, natural light is - magnetism(the sun) + noble gases(the atmosphere).
Non of those exist in LED tech.
Thats the reason when you get it close the plants will die.

Now you sound like that consipracy people - you just are fearing what you don't know. Sorry if I do not take you serious anymore - will leave thr thread.
I smoke twice long as you , if this is a argument for you.
And what you are writing just shows that you have no idea how physics , chemics or technic works in real life. Sorry...
Believe me or not - I know what I am talking about and can also prove it on a scientific way.

Microwave reasearch...