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Anyone 'cured' prostate cancer with....

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G

Guest

https://www.fredhutch.org/en/news/releases/2000/01/JAMAprostatectomy.html

Found an article from JAMA re. both urinary incontinence and erectile dysfunction following radical prostatectomy procedures for well over 1,200 subjects.

The author and data are more positive than the Anchorage surgeon, but not necessarily spewing lollipops and rainbows in their numbers, either.

Still, these are numbers that are slightly less bleak, and slightly closer to what others have reported anecdotally.
 

sdd420

Well-known member
Veteran
I admire how you are being your own advocate. These days it’s a must I guess but tiresome. I’m sending you positive vibes and wish you the best. Happy holidays too
 

trichrider

Kiss My Ring
Veteran
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]And, if nothing else, I had a thought about orally-sourced enzymes and their roles in breaking down and making food stuffs (or what ever) more bio-available....[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]i did, after a minute, consider this as anecdotal.
[/FONT]

Most THC and CBD oil goes to waste in your body—here’s why

Emma StoneOctober 28, 2019

If you knew that only 6% of your CBD gummies would enter your bloodstream to do their job, would you still purchase them? Amid the current frenzy surrounding cannabis and its therapeutic benefits, it’s easy to gloss over the bioavailability of cannabis products.
Bioavailability refers to the degree and rate at which a substance is absorbed into your bloodstream to be used where needed. Physiological processes and consumption methods can affect cannabis absorption, rendering its effects somewhat hit-and-miss.
It’s critical to get clued up about bioavailability in order to maximize the medicinal potency of cannabis. The more bioavailable your cannabis, the lower the quantity of the plant you need to reap its benefits.
Related
Edibles dosage chart: How strong is your cannabis-infused edible?

What factors influence cannabis bioavailability?

The surge in cannabis popularity can be partly attributed to the range of consumption methods available. Edibles and tinctures can have less of the stigma traditionally associated with joints. However, when cannabinoids such as CBD and THC are ingested in oil form—oil is also used to make edibles—their bioavailability becomes compromised.
CBD and THC oils resist absorption into the bloodstream because the human body is up to 60% water. Basic science—and salad dressing—dictates that oil and water do not mix, and the same is true for cannabis oil and the human body.
“Cannabinoids are fat-loving molecules and have to traverse a cellular environment that is aqueous or watery,” explains Dr. Patricia Frye, a member of the Society of Cannabis Clinicians and chief medical officer at Hello MD. When cannabis is consumed as an oil, the onset of effects can become delayed and bioavailability limited.
Related
A physician’s perspective on optimal cannabis dosing

Another phenomenon that limits oil-based cannabis extracts from reaching the bloodstream is the first-pass effect. When cannabis is ingested orally, it is absorbed in the gastrointestinal tract and transported via the portal vein to the liver, where it is metabolized. As a result of this process, only a limited quantity reaches the circulatory system. Since cannabis oil is often taken orally, its efficacy can be hindered.
Are some cannabinoids more bioavailable than others?

There has been some investigation into CBD, THC, and less into cannabinol, or CBN. Studies have shown that the bioavailability of cannabinoids depends on the method of delivery.
When applied as a topical ointment or transdermal patch, CBD can penetrate the tissue ten times more effectively than THC. The same is true of CBN.
THC, however, is more bioavailable than CBD when administered orally or delivered via the lungs. A clinical study found that concentrations of THC in the bloodstream appeared 30-50% higher than CBD following oral delivery as a sublingual spray.
However, the bioavailability of THC is still limited when consumed orally, averaging only 4-12%. When smoked or vaped, the bioavailability of THC leaps to an average of 30%.
Which methods of cannabis consumption optimize bioavailability?

Some of the most common and convenient cannabis products, such as capsules, soft gels, tinctures, and edibles, limit bioavailability due to the first pass through the liver. “With edibles, absorption is slow, unpredictable, and highly variable,” says Frye. “Only about 6% of the dose is absorbed. The onset of action can be as long as 6 hours; it’s very easy to take too much, and the effects can last as long as 20 hours!”
Oral administration lasts longer than smoking, eliminating the need for frequent dosing. Oral methods also avoid irritation to the airways and the risk of malignancies associated with smoking or vaping.
That said, inhaling cannabis guarantees increased bioavailability because molecules are transported by vapor particles directly to the alveoli in the lungs. This allows cannabinoids to rapidly enter the bloodstream without being metabolized by the liver.
Related
Do cannabis sublingual strips really work? Yes—here’s how

Another lesser known method of administration is intranasal delivery, which enables cannabinoids to be easily absorbed with a rapid onset of 10 minutes or less. “Intranasal methods are highly bioavailable at 34-46%,” says Frye. “It’s a particularly helpful mode of delivery for patients who are having a seizure or for patients trying to abort an impending seizure or migraine.”
Transdermal patches can be super effective at targeting localized or systemic pain. They allow for a steady infusion of active ingredients to the delivery site, so the patient is unlikely to experience spikes of THC in the bloodstream.
Finally, nano-emulsions and micro-emulsions can dramatically increase the stability and bioavailability of cannabinoids. These novel formulations use nanotechnology to offer up to 100% bioavailability. Frye cautions, however, that the research is still scarce. “We don’t know the full extent of how these manipulations affect cannabinoid activity at the cellular level,” she says.
What tips or tricks can help increase bioavailability?

One method that boosts the absorption of edibles is to combine cannabis product with fats. Frye recommends combining edibles or tinctures with healthy fats such as guacamole, hummus, or dark chocolate. If you’re feeling less virtuous, however, ice cream works as a treat. The same goes for alcohol-based tinctures.
For those who smoke or vape, bioavailability can be enhanced by minimizing sidestream loss and increasing the number of puffs. “Using a desktop or handheld vaporizer with flower will eliminate sidestream losses,” Frye advises. If you think you get more bang for your buck by holding your breath, think again. “There is no evidence supporting holding one’s breath for more than 10 secs,” says Frye.
Some final words of advice from Dr. Fyre, for those looking to optimize cannabis bioavailability: “The most cost-effective way to use cannabis is not to use more than you need. Less is more,” she says. Due to its biphasic nature, excessive dosing may exacerbate the symptoms you’re trying to alleviate.


https://www.leafly.com/news/health/most-thc-cbd-oil-waste-in-body
.......

Absorption After Ingestion and Sublingual Methods

The most common route of CBD oil administration is orally, or through the mouth. When CBD is ingested, it is absorbed by the digestive system. From the stomach, the compounds enter the hepatic portal system, where they are carried through the portal vein into the liver. The liver then metabolizes the CBD molecules, in what’s referred to as the “first pass effect.” CYP450 mixed function oxidases enzymes in the liver act upon CBD, reducing the concentration of the compounds before passing on what remains to the bloodstream.
Ingestion, while considered by most to be the easiest administration method, isn’t the most efficient for absorbing high levels of CBD. Studies have found, however, that consuming CBD oil with fatty acids can help bypass first pass metabolism and increase how much CBD is absorbed through ingestion.
If CBD oil is held under the tongue for 60 to 90 seconds before being swallowed, the mucus membranes in the mouth can absorb the compounds. This sublingual method allows CBD to completely bypass the digestive system and liver metabolism, so the compounds can avoid being broken down by enzymes and reach the bloodstream more quickly.


https://echoconnection.org/cbd-absorbed-body/


it appears enzymes from mucous membranes are ill equipped to 'digest' (for want of a better word) cannabinoids without a carrier (fats) and that the liver passes on less than 10%.
sublingual, vaping and transdermal patches deliver more effective percentages.
good luck with the seattle area clinics...
 

Weezard

Hawaiian Inebriatti
Veteran
Good information for the most part.
It's why we use lecithin for full emulsification.


And the following is spot on.



[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]“The most cost-effective way to use cannabis is not to use more than you need. Less is more,” she says. Due to its biphasic nature, excessive dosing may exacerbate the symptoms you’re trying to alleviate."[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Translates to: "More than enough is too much." :)
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]
 

trichrider

Kiss My Ring
Veteran
i don't think either of those articles even mentioned lecithin.

fats are essential and help your body absorb vitamins etc., also help controlling inflammation...lecithin helps break down fat.
i was not crapping on lecithin or its use, wish i had known about it when i was eating oil every day for months...probably wasted most of the oil i ingested because of not being aware.
just pointing out how inefficient oral consumption really is.
 
G

Guest

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]And, if nothing else, I had a thought about orally-sourced enzymes and their roles in breaking down and making food stuffs (or what ever) more bio-available....[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]i did, after a minute, consider this as anecdotal.
[/FONT]

Most THC and CBD oil goes to waste in your body—here’s why

Emma StoneOctober 28, 2019

If you knew that only 6% of your CBD gummies would enter your bloodstream to do their job, would you still purchase them? Amid the current frenzy surrounding cannabis and its therapeutic benefits, it’s easy to gloss over the bioavailability of cannabis products.
Bioavailability refers to the degree and rate at which a substance is absorbed into your bloodstream to be used where needed. Physiological processes and consumption methods can affect cannabis absorption, rendering its effects somewhat hit-and-miss.
It’s critical to get clued up about bioavailability in order to maximize the medicinal potency of cannabis. The more bioavailable your cannabis, the lower the quantity of the plant you need to reap its benefits.
Related
Edibles dosage chart: How strong is your cannabis-infused edible?

What factors influence cannabis bioavailability?

The surge in cannabis popularity can be partly attributed to the range of consumption methods available. Edibles and tinctures can have less of the stigma traditionally associated with joints. However, when cannabinoids such as CBD and THC are ingested in oil form—oil is also used to make edibles—their bioavailability becomes compromised.
CBD and THC oils resist absorption into the bloodstream because the human body is up to 60% water. Basic science—and salad dressing—dictates that oil and water do not mix, and the same is true for cannabis oil and the human body.
“Cannabinoids are fat-loving molecules and have to traverse a cellular environment that is aqueous or watery,” explains Dr. Patricia Frye, a member of the Society of Cannabis Clinicians and chief medical officer at Hello MD. When cannabis is consumed as an oil, the onset of effects can become delayed and bioavailability limited.
Related
A physician’s perspective on optimal cannabis dosing

Another phenomenon that limits oil-based cannabis extracts from reaching the bloodstream is the first-pass effect. When cannabis is ingested orally, it is absorbed in the gastrointestinal tract and transported via the portal vein to the liver, where it is metabolized. As a result of this process, only a limited quantity reaches the circulatory system. Since cannabis oil is often taken orally, its efficacy can be hindered.
Are some cannabinoids more bioavailable than others?

There has been some investigation into CBD, THC, and less into cannabinol, or CBN. Studies have shown that the bioavailability of cannabinoids depends on the method of delivery.
When applied as a topical ointment or transdermal patch, CBD can penetrate the tissue ten times more effectively than THC. The same is true of CBN.
THC, however, is more bioavailable than CBD when administered orally or delivered via the lungs. A clinical study found that concentrations of THC in the bloodstream appeared 30-50% higher than CBD following oral delivery as a sublingual spray.
However, the bioavailability of THC is still limited when consumed orally, averaging only 4-12%. When smoked or vaped, the bioavailability of THC leaps to an average of 30%.
Which methods of cannabis consumption optimize bioavailability?

Some of the most common and convenient cannabis products, such as capsules, soft gels, tinctures, and edibles, limit bioavailability due to the first pass through the liver. “With edibles, absorption is slow, unpredictable, and highly variable,” says Frye. “Only about 6% of the dose is absorbed. The onset of action can be as long as 6 hours; it’s very easy to take too much, and the effects can last as long as 20 hours!”
Oral administration lasts longer than smoking, eliminating the need for frequent dosing. Oral methods also avoid irritation to the airways and the risk of malignancies associated with smoking or vaping.
That said, inhaling cannabis guarantees increased bioavailability because molecules are transported by vapor particles directly to the alveoli in the lungs. This allows cannabinoids to rapidly enter the bloodstream without being metabolized by the liver.
Related
Do cannabis sublingual strips really work? Yes—here’s how

Another lesser known method of administration is intranasal delivery, which enables cannabinoids to be easily absorbed with a rapid onset of 10 minutes or less. “Intranasal methods are highly bioavailable at 34-46%,” says Frye. “It’s a particularly helpful mode of delivery for patients who are having a seizure or for patients trying to abort an impending seizure or migraine.”
Transdermal patches can be super effective at targeting localized or systemic pain. They allow for a steady infusion of active ingredients to the delivery site, so the patient is unlikely to experience spikes of THC in the bloodstream.
Finally, nano-emulsions and micro-emulsions can dramatically increase the stability and bioavailability of cannabinoids. These novel formulations use nanotechnology to offer up to 100% bioavailability. Frye cautions, however, that the research is still scarce. “We don’t know the full extent of how these manipulations affect cannabinoid activity at the cellular level,” she says.
What tips or tricks can help increase bioavailability?

One method that boosts the absorption of edibles is to combine cannabis product with fats. Frye recommends combining edibles or tinctures with healthy fats such as guacamole, hummus, or dark chocolate. If you’re feeling less virtuous, however, ice cream works as a treat. The same goes for alcohol-based tinctures.
For those who smoke or vape, bioavailability can be enhanced by minimizing sidestream loss and increasing the number of puffs. “Using a desktop or handheld vaporizer with flower will eliminate sidestream losses,” Frye advises. If you think you get more bang for your buck by holding your breath, think again. “There is no evidence supporting holding one’s breath for more than 10 secs,” says Frye.
Some final words of advice from Dr. Fyre, for those looking to optimize cannabis bioavailability: “The most cost-effective way to use cannabis is not to use more than you need. Less is more,” she says. Due to its biphasic nature, excessive dosing may exacerbate the symptoms you’re trying to alleviate.


https://www.leafly.com/news/health/most-thc-cbd-oil-waste-in-body
.......

Absorption After Ingestion and Sublingual Methods

The most common route of CBD oil administration is orally, or through the mouth. When CBD is ingested, it is absorbed by the digestive system. From the stomach, the compounds enter the hepatic portal system, where they are carried through the portal vein into the liver. The liver then metabolizes the CBD molecules, in what’s referred to as the “first pass effect.” CYP450 mixed function oxidases enzymes in the liver act upon CBD, reducing the concentration of the compounds before passing on what remains to the bloodstream.
Ingestion, while considered by most to be the easiest administration method, isn’t the most efficient for absorbing high levels of CBD. Studies have found, however, that consuming CBD oil with fatty acids can help bypass first pass metabolism and increase how much CBD is absorbed through ingestion.
If CBD oil is held under the tongue for 60 to 90 seconds before being swallowed, the mucus membranes in the mouth can absorb the compounds. This sublingual method allows CBD to completely bypass the digestive system and liver metabolism, so the compounds can avoid being broken down by enzymes and reach the bloodstream more quickly.


https://echoconnection.org/cbd-absorbed-body/


it appears enzymes from mucous membranes are ill equipped to 'digest' (for want of a better word) cannabinoids without a carrier (fats) and that the liver passes on less than 10%.
sublingual, vaping and transdermal patches deliver more effective percentages.
good luck with the seattle area clinics...

Thanks, trich.

I scanned through much of that, but will admittedly need to come back for a more thorough and slower reading.

I'd anecdotally and subjectively perceived a greater effect from eating the decarbed flowers after or along with eating oily nuts, especially macadamias, almonds, and cashews... 3 of the more extremely oily varieties.

And now that I've engaged in a relatively abrupt change of diet/additional diet foods, I now have a pretty steady diet of decent nuts to assist in absorption/bioavailability.

In re-reading the post, I'll try to see if my intuitive addressing of the oral enzymes has any merit.
 
G

Guest

I admire how you are being your own advocate. These days it’s a must I guess but tiresome. I’m sending you positive vibes and wish you the best. Happy holidays too

Thank you, sdd.

When I was a tiny kid, we had a family physician, we all knew his name, he was typically the only guy we saw, no co-signer necessary, and a very family-person-friendly atmosphere; VERY personable.

Close to 6 or 7 years ago, I ended up in the ER, after 5 nights of no sleep, and my legs going utterly WONKY with pain and sensations I'd never had. It was spine-injury oriented.

I refused to go to the clinic or hospital, as I had no insurance, and just saying, "Hello" in our ER is literally apt to be close to $1,200, without even getting to address the real cause of the visit.

Anyway, without having the courage to say so, a family member who works in a methadone program witnessed the attendees implying I was a drug-seeker (*I am, but not THOSE types of drugs, and not on THAT day).

The problem, aside from timing, and being in the midst of the opiate 'crisis', was that I had been honest with persons who had likely led fairly narrow lives, and in my honesty, and addressing the tenor of "Maybe he's a drug-seeker", informing them that "Yes, I was indeed a child of the early 1970s, walked a time or 3 on the wild side, but my interests here today have NOTHING to do with that."

They gave me an ultrasound exam of my legs to make sure I wouldn't die on their sidewalk outside, and sue them, should a blood clot cut loose in my legs. Then, knowing my primary care Doc was over-seas for another 19 days, released me with 3 days worth of pain meds, some meds to interrupt pain signals that caused a brief transposing of consonants in speech (even on the incredibly light dose I was taking), and also brought on WEIRD dream sequences.

Again, that was all on way light doses of this more or less fairly common Rx drug, for which many of these side-effects are well known even before I ever received them.

So yeah, 20 years ago, had someone told me that it is almost always advisable to have a witness of credible character with you when you're visiting a hospital or clinic, I'd have questioned their mental health as a matter of paranoia.

But referencing what another poster here regards as 'modern Rockefeller-Era Medicine', I can now fully attest to witnesses and personal advocacy in modern health-care being a NECESSITY, if only because in those moments when you MIGHT get screwed around, they're not apt to send you a post card telling you when they're coming.

These days I am still (obviously) a serious advocate for myself (most persons do a job for q pay-check, and I figure most Docs, nurses, PA's, etc., are not much different, so we should ALL be looking out for ourselves, if not each other), and I typically, for now, don't take a witness along, violating my own established rules as a result of COVID-19.

Likewise, if/when I travel to Seattle/Pac NW for surgery or (????), I'll be going alone, wearing my P100 .3 micron food-grade silicone mask, with a surgical mask on over it, gloves, etc., and looking ornery enough that no one wants to sit near me on the aircraft, in the taxi, at check-in into what ever lodging at the hospital, during the stay, or the reverse course back home, then likely hibernate in our extra bedroom, until we're somewhat sure that I'm not contagious..
 
Last edited:
G

Guest

Childhood friend called this morning around 9:00 A.M.

Hadn't spoken in most of a decade, if not more. Likely he spoke with another friend from that region and years who shared my predicament.

People tend to go about their own ways, never really taking much effort to think about others in an on-going way, then one day hear some news, and suddenly want to reach out.

It's a noble gesture, but I find room for resentment in it. This same person had contacted me most of 2 decades ago, to reconnect, and to confess taking my knife my mother had given me when I was about 13. They had, back then, asked if I wanted them to replace the knife, which I privately saw as a bit shallow. I'd later thought, "What, you want forgiveness and a clean slate for taking my heirloom pocket knife, but not sure you want to spend the $35 that might make it right without asking?"

Humans; our species can be very short-sighted at times, myself included.

Anyway, woke again shortly after about 11:00, with my nerves all fried re. familial losses and conflicts, urgency of treatment, etc.

Once again, laid there for several hours trying to clarify or sort and appease the sadness and sense of emotional panic re. the whole mosaic cluster-fuck that is happening at the moment, and again spent a fair bit of time toying with the idea of how much simpler (in some ways) and cleaner this all might be to simply disappear, and shared that with my wife.

My younger son is still the major fly in the ointment where shrinking back from more terminal answers; there's images I've seen that I would not subject he or his mother to.

So after a bit, I got up, took my supplements and pills, drank a cup of coffee, some RO H2O, slammed a smaller moose meatloaf burger down with some sprouted broccoli seeds littering the top of it, and some reduced sugar ketchup and spicy brown mustard mixed into the sprouts on top.

Another half hour of self-talk, and some intense but amicable discourse with my wife, and I can park the 'nuclear option' for another hour or 20, until the next time everything seems to be overwhelming.

Now, after all of that, another moment of focusing and rest, the rest of my coffee, a gram+ of CBD flowers, and then, that part of the day we all live for... CHORES!!!
 

trichrider

Kiss My Ring
Veteran
after mulling over the inconsistency of oral dosing, i began to wonder why not bypass the liver like is done with sublingual and process that flower material into suppositories and get it as close to the problem area as possible.



have you given any consideration to that yet?



Do Cannabis Suppositories Work?

The low-down on what’s up with rectal and vaginal delivery.

By Jelena Grove on July 03, 2019 (Updated on January 14, 2020)



The back door is making a comeback - medically speaking.
Cannabis suppositories have grown in popularity, but how and to what extent they actually work remains a mystery. With contradictory claims from proponents and skeptics regarding the rectal bioavailability of THC, intoxication (or lack thereof), and alleviation of symptoms of difficult-to-treat diseases, it’s time to get a grip on what we really know about this method of administering cannabis.
Clinical research on cannabis suppositories is still limited. Much of the available data pertains to experiments conducted on animals, not on people who actually use suppositories. Despite the distinct lack of clinical studies, anecdotal accounts from patients are often very positive. The overwhelming majority of patient reports have one thing in common: a lack of intoxication that’s typically caused by smoking or ingesting THC-rich cannabis.
The absence of a “head high” would seem to indicate that a suppository does not distribute a systemic dose of cannabis – which corroborates initial research findings about limited bioavailability. This suggests that a suppository acts more like a topical with a local effect, rather than a transdermal patch which disseminates medicine systemically through the bloodstream.
Why suppositories?

Rectal and vaginal suppositories have both been used to deliver medicine to patients for decades. The pelvic region houses a matrix of nerves that travel to the legs and up the spine, and the colon contains cannabinoid receptors (CB1 and CB2), which mediate many of THC’s effects.
Generally, cannabis suppositories are made by combining cannabis-infused oils in a carrier oil that hardens at low temperatures. Rectal administration of cannabis oil may activate the cannabinoid receptors located there, which could be beneficial for local conditions like hemorrhoids or acute inflammation [6]. The rectum also contains a number of key veins that deliver blood to the entire body, but it doesn’t appear that suppositories facilitate cannabinoid absorption into the bloodstream.
Even if they are only effective locally rather than systemically, suppositories may offer a viable alternative to patients suffering from conditions that render them unable to ingest their prescriptions orally [1]. Issues with palatability, severe nausea or vomiting, compromised esophageal or gastrointestinal tracts, and a range of other symptoms can make oral administration an impossibility for many patients.
Related story
What Is the Best Way to Take CBD?

Clinical research

A number of studies have called into question the rectal bioavailability of THC. In a 1985 study, researchers found no circulating levels of ?9 THC in blood plasma after rectal administration of THC. According to University of Mississippi pharmacologist and researcher Dr. Mahmoud ElSohly, this means that in commercially available formulations THC is not absorbed into the bloodstream via the rectum at all.
ElSohly claims that any cerebral intoxication experienced using cannabis suppositories is a result of the placebo effect rather than the activation of the CB1 cannabinoid receptors in the brain – which is what makes us feel high from THC.
Interestingly, a later study showed that a chemically modified version of THC, called THC-hemisuccinate (or THC-HS for short), is bioavailable in the rectum. Succinate, an intermediate compound in the breakdown of sugar, is slightly water soluble, which allows it to be absorbed through the rectal mucosa. It was first synthesized at ElSohly Laboratories, Inc. Unlike regular THC, THC from the hemisuccinate ester was found to easily permeate and absorb into rectal mucus membranes [7], then enter into circulation as ?9 THC. As a result, most of the THC avoided first-pass metabolism and did not transform into its more psychotropically potent metabolite, 11-hydroxy-THC, in the liver [5].
“ElSohly claims that any cerebral intoxication experienced using cannabis suppositories is a result of the placebo effect.”
The results from a follow-up 1996 pilot study support the idea that THC-HS administered rectally could result in improvement in symptoms of spasticity, rigidity, and pain, while producing no measurable differences in cardiovascular function, concentration, and mood of the participants – in other words, without signs of measurable intoxication.
Most recently, in 2018, ElSohly and his team found that the concentration of ?9 THC in blood plasma after rectal administration of a THC-HS suppository was about 70-80% bioavailable, almost 2.5 times higher than an orally ingested THC capsule. While there were no reports of intoxication for the test subjects, the paper states that first-pass metabolism was “greatly reduced,” although not eliminated entirely. This means that some slight psychotropic effects from the 11-hydroxy-THC could still be possible with THC-HS formulation, but more studies are necessary to confirm this.
ElSohly’s research could have significant implications for cancer patients and others suffering from conditions that may require very high doses of cannabinoids but who are unable to smoke or ingest their medicine. THC-HS, however, is a patented molecule and can only be prepared with a license from the University of Mississippi.
Pain relief and pleasure

Cancer patients* and people with compromised upper alimentary tracts will likely have to wait some time before THC-HS formulations become commercially available. Meanwhile, THC and CBD-rich suppositories are currently being sold in state-licensed cannabis dispensaries.
Ben Odell, content director at Foria Wellness, a cannabis producer based in California and Colorado, says that the best way to conceptualize the effects of suppositories is by imagining them as powerful topicals – except they are applied internally. Just as externally applied topicals interact with cannabinoid receptors in the skin, rectal suppositories are aimed at nerve endings and cannabinoid receptors in colonic tissue.
“Everyone is debating and discussing rectal absorption of THC, and whether [cannabis oil extracts] and other formulations are absorbed into the bloodstream or not. But we’re not interested in getting people high,” says Odell. Instead their focus is on creating products that alleviate pain and discomfort in the lower body, as well as products that enhance intimate pleasure.
“Odell says that customers and Foria staff have been experimenting with cannabis suppositories for relief of other lower-body issues, like cramping, inflammation, and pelvic discomfort – with good results.”
Foria initially launched their mixed THC:CBD ratio rectal suppository as a sexual aid. “We were hearing from our friends in the queer community that a lot of people use nasty chemicals to relax the anal sphincter before sex — things like ‘poppers,” Odell told Project CBD. The idea behind the new product line is that THC and CBD could help mitigate painful localized inflammation and relax smooth muscle tissue – like the involuntary muscle tissue of the internal sphincter [9]. Odell says that customers and Foria staff have been experimenting with cannabis suppositories for relief of other lower-body issues, like cramping, inflammation, and pelvic discomfort – with good results.
Foria also produces a high-CBD suppository and a high-THC formula for vaginal application. Odell reports that feedback regarding THC-rich suppositories has been far more positive for pain relief than the CBD line. This summer Foria will be partnering with Harvard neuroscientist Dr. Staci Gruber to conduct a study that will track women’s responses to CBD suppositories.
Who can benefit?

Whether or not cannabinoids are absorbed into the bloodstream from the rectum, many suppository enthusiasts report powerful, localized, non-psychotropic effects for a range of middle and lower body afflictions.
Anal Suppositories

Men and women have reported using rectal suppositories to treat anal fissures, hemorrhoid inflammation, digestive issues, Crohn’s and IBS, sciatica, restless leg syndrome, lower back pain, prostate issues, and post-operative pain. Rectal suppositories are also being used for lubrication to mitigate pain during anal intercourse.
Vaginal Suppositories

Vaginal suppositories have been used to ease menstrual cramps, abdominal pain, endometriosis, pelvic discomfort, post-coital pain or inflammation, vaginal dryness and pain with intercourse, as well as for relaxation and sexual enhancement.
Of course, dosing via the vagina or rectum is not as simple as taking a puff or swallowing a pill (lest we forget about gravity). Cannabinoids are tricky molecules and there’s still much to learn scientifically and pragmatically about the efficacy of various delivery systems, including cannabis suppositories.
Thus far, clinical studies have shown no rectal bioavailability of unadulterated THC [2,7]. And while it’s plausible to speculate that cannabinoids could have an effect via local pathways in the colon and elsewhere, those pathways haven’t been studied yet. Although many anecdotal reports are positive, there are some significant discrepancies in observed efficacy [9]. Far more research is needed to better understand exactly how this method works (or doesn’t).
But there’s no need for patients to wait until all the results are in. If you’re curious, suppositories could be worth a try. You probably won’t get a “head high,” according to the legendary Tommy Chong, who uses cannabis suppositories under a doctor’s supervision. Though you might feel a little “butt high,” Chong says with a smile, which is not necessarily a bad thing.
Related story
CBD & Cannabis Dosing

How To Make Your Own Suppositories

If you want to try suppositories at home, you have a few options: you could find them at your local dispensary, order online, or make them yourself with a few simple ingredients.
What You Need


  • Full-extract cannabis oil of your choice
  • A base (organic cacao butter or coconut oil are recommended)
  • Suppository molds (these can be metal, silicone, or plastic)
Instructions


  • Gently heat the base in a pan.
  • Add in the cannabis oil of your choice and mix well.
  • Pour the mixture into the suppository mold and pop it into the freezer.
Tips and Tricks for Use


  • While the onset of effects is highly variable, users typically report feeling effects within 30-60 minutes for vaginal application and 15-30 minutes with rectal administration.
  • The base will melt quickly during contact with warm skin, so keep the suppositories in the freezer until you’re ready to medicate.
  • You can prevent leakage by lying in a horizontal position during insertion and for at least 15-30 minutes after.
  • Try using them at night your first few times. It’s always better to be familiar with potential effects before daytime use.
  • Record your experiences in a journal to identify your patterns and best practices.
(Recipe courtesy of Paula-Noel Macfie)
* Suppositories are not reccomended for use by cancer patients undergoing chemotherapy. According to Dr. Bonni Goldstien, “chemo causes thinning and sloughing of cells of the lining of mucus membranes (which is the tissue of the mouth and rectum) and also decreases the ability of the immune system to fight infection” and inserting a suppository could introduce infection-causing bacteria.
Jelena Grove is a cannabis writer and budtender based in Portland, OR. This is her first article for Project CBD.
Copyright, Project CBD. May not be reprinted without permission.


References


  1. Allen, Lloyd, “Suppositories as drug delivery systems.” Journal of Pharmaceutical Care in Pain & Symptom Control, vol. 5, 1997, https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1300/J088v05n02_03
  2. Elsohly, Mahmoud A., et al. “Rectal Bioavailability of Delta-9-Tetrahydrocannabinol from Various Esters.” Pharmacology Biochemistry and Behavior, vol. 40, no. 3, 1991, pp. 497–502., doi:10.1016/0091-3057(91)90353-4.
  3. ElSohly, Mahmoud, et al. “Pharmacokinetics and Tolerability of ?9 THC Hemisuccinate in a suppository formulation as an alternative to capsules for the systemic delivery of ?9 THC.” Medical Cannabis and Cannabinoids, April. 2018, https://www.karger.com/Article/Pdf/489037.
  4. ElSohly, Mahmoud ,et al, “The effect of orally and rectally administered delta 9-tetrahydrocannabinol on spasticity: a pilot study with 2 patients.” Int. Journal of Clinical Pharmacology and Therapeutics 1996 Oct;34(10):446-52., https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8897084
  5. Gonçalves, Joana, et al. “Cannabis and Its Secondary Metabolites: Their Use as Therapeutic Drugs, Toxicological Aspects, and Analytical Determination.” Medicines (Basel, Switzerland), MDPI, 23 Feb. 2019, www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6473697/.
  6. Maida, Vincent, and Jason Corban. “Topical Medical Cannabis: A New Treatment for Wound Pain—Three Cases of Pyoderma Gangrenosum.” Journal of Pain and Symptom Management, vol. 54, no. 5, 2017, pp. 732–736., doi:10.1016/j.jpainsymman.2017.06.005.
  7. Perlin, Elliott, et al. “Disposition and Bioavailability of Various Formulations of Tetrahydrocannabinol in the Rhesus Monkey.” Journal of Pharmaceutical Sciences, vol. 74, no. 2, 1985, pp. 171–174., doi:10.1002/jps.2600740213.
  8. Purohit, Trusha, et al. “Advances in rectal drug delivery systems.” Pharmaceutical Development and Technology, 24 Jul 2018, https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/10837450.2018.1484766?journalCode=iphd20
  9. Touitou, Elka, and Brian W Barry. “Anatomy and Physiology of the Rectum and Its Role in Drug Absorption.”
  10. Walker, Larry A., et al. “?9-THC Hemisuccinate in Suppository Form as an Alternative to Oral and Smoked THC.” Marihuana and Medicine, 1999, pp. 123–135., doi:10.1007/978-1-59259-710-9_13.
  11. Wright, Karen, et al. “Differential Expression of Cannabinoid Receptors in the Human Colon: Cannabinoids Promote Epithelial Wound Healing.” Gastroenterology, vol. 129, no. 2, 2005, pp. 437–453., doi:10.1053/j.gastro.2005.05.026.
 
G

Guest

after mulling over the inconsistency of oral dosing, i began to wonder why not bypass the liver like is done with sublingual and process that flower material into suppositories and get it as close to the problem area as possible.



have you given any consideration to that yet?



Do Cannabis Suppositories Work?

The low-down on what’s up with rectal and vaginal delivery.

By Jelena Grove on July 03, 2019 (Updated on January 14, 2020)



The back door is making a comeback - medically speaking.
Cannabis suppositories have grown in popularity, but how and to what extent they actually work remains a mystery. With contradictory claims from proponents and skeptics regarding the rectal bioavailability of THC, intoxication (or lack thereof), and alleviation of symptoms of difficult-to-treat diseases, it’s time to get a grip on what we really know about this method of administering cannabis.
Clinical research on cannabis suppositories is still limited. Much of the available data pertains to experiments conducted on animals, not on people who actually use suppositories. Despite the distinct lack of clinical studies, anecdotal accounts from patients are often very positive. The overwhelming majority of patient reports have one thing in common: a lack of intoxication that’s typically caused by smoking or ingesting THC-rich cannabis.
The absence of a “head high” would seem to indicate that a suppository does not distribute a systemic dose of cannabis – which corroborates initial research findings about limited bioavailability. This suggests that a suppository acts more like a topical with a local effect, rather than a transdermal patch which disseminates medicine systemically through the bloodstream.
Why suppositories?

Rectal and vaginal suppositories have both been used to deliver medicine to patients for decades. The pelvic region houses a matrix of nerves that travel to the legs and up the spine, and the colon contains cannabinoid receptors (CB1 and CB2), which mediate many of THC’s effects.
Generally, cannabis suppositories are made by combining cannabis-infused oils in a carrier oil that hardens at low temperatures. Rectal administration of cannabis oil may activate the cannabinoid receptors located there, which could be beneficial for local conditions like hemorrhoids or acute inflammation [6]. The rectum also contains a number of key veins that deliver blood to the entire body, but it doesn’t appear that suppositories facilitate cannabinoid absorption into the bloodstream.
Even if they are only effective locally rather than systemically, suppositories may offer a viable alternative to patients suffering from conditions that render them unable to ingest their prescriptions orally [1]. Issues with palatability, severe nausea or vomiting, compromised esophageal or gastrointestinal tracts, and a range of other symptoms can make oral administration an impossibility for many patients.
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What Is the Best Way to Take CBD?

Clinical research

A number of studies have called into question the rectal bioavailability of THC. In a 1985 study, researchers found no circulating levels of ?9 THC in blood plasma after rectal administration of THC. According to University of Mississippi pharmacologist and researcher Dr. Mahmoud ElSohly, this means that in commercially available formulations THC is not absorbed into the bloodstream via the rectum at all.
ElSohly claims that any cerebral intoxication experienced using cannabis suppositories is a result of the placebo effect rather than the activation of the CB1 cannabinoid receptors in the brain – which is what makes us feel high from THC.
Interestingly, a later study showed that a chemically modified version of THC, called THC-hemisuccinate (or THC-HS for short), is bioavailable in the rectum. Succinate, an intermediate compound in the breakdown of sugar, is slightly water soluble, which allows it to be absorbed through the rectal mucosa. It was first synthesized at ElSohly Laboratories, Inc. Unlike regular THC, THC from the hemisuccinate ester was found to easily permeate and absorb into rectal mucus membranes [7], then enter into circulation as ?9 THC. As a result, most of the THC avoided first-pass metabolism and did not transform into its more psychotropically potent metabolite, 11-hydroxy-THC, in the liver [5].
“ElSohly claims that any cerebral intoxication experienced using cannabis suppositories is a result of the placebo effect.”
The results from a follow-up 1996 pilot study support the idea that THC-HS administered rectally could result in improvement in symptoms of spasticity, rigidity, and pain, while producing no measurable differences in cardiovascular function, concentration, and mood of the participants – in other words, without signs of measurable intoxication.
Most recently, in 2018, ElSohly and his team found that the concentration of ?9 THC in blood plasma after rectal administration of a THC-HS suppository was about 70-80% bioavailable, almost 2.5 times higher than an orally ingested THC capsule. While there were no reports of intoxication for the test subjects, the paper states that first-pass metabolism was “greatly reduced,” although not eliminated entirely. This means that some slight psychotropic effects from the 11-hydroxy-THC could still be possible with THC-HS formulation, but more studies are necessary to confirm this.
ElSohly’s research could have significant implications for cancer patients and others suffering from conditions that may require very high doses of cannabinoids but who are unable to smoke or ingest their medicine. THC-HS, however, is a patented molecule and can only be prepared with a license from the University of Mississippi.
Pain relief and pleasure

Cancer patients* and people with compromised upper alimentary tracts will likely have to wait some time before THC-HS formulations become commercially available. Meanwhile, THC and CBD-rich suppositories are currently being sold in state-licensed cannabis dispensaries.
Ben Odell, content director at Foria Wellness, a cannabis producer based in California and Colorado, says that the best way to conceptualize the effects of suppositories is by imagining them as powerful topicals – except they are applied internally. Just as externally applied topicals interact with cannabinoid receptors in the skin, rectal suppositories are aimed at nerve endings and cannabinoid receptors in colonic tissue.
“Everyone is debating and discussing rectal absorption of THC, and whether [cannabis oil extracts] and other formulations are absorbed into the bloodstream or not. But we’re not interested in getting people high,” says Odell. Instead their focus is on creating products that alleviate pain and discomfort in the lower body, as well as products that enhance intimate pleasure.
“Odell says that customers and Foria staff have been experimenting with cannabis suppositories for relief of other lower-body issues, like cramping, inflammation, and pelvic discomfort – with good results.”
Foria initially launched their mixed THC:CBD ratio rectal suppository as a sexual aid. “We were hearing from our friends in the queer community that a lot of people use nasty chemicals to relax the anal sphincter before sex — things like ‘poppers,” Odell told Project CBD. The idea behind the new product line is that THC and CBD could help mitigate painful localized inflammation and relax smooth muscle tissue – like the involuntary muscle tissue of the internal sphincter [9]. Odell says that customers and Foria staff have been experimenting with cannabis suppositories for relief of other lower-body issues, like cramping, inflammation, and pelvic discomfort – with good results.
Foria also produces a high-CBD suppository and a high-THC formula for vaginal application. Odell reports that feedback regarding THC-rich suppositories has been far more positive for pain relief than the CBD line. This summer Foria will be partnering with Harvard neuroscientist Dr. Staci Gruber to conduct a study that will track women’s responses to CBD suppositories.
Who can benefit?

Whether or not cannabinoids are absorbed into the bloodstream from the rectum, many suppository enthusiasts report powerful, localized, non-psychotropic effects for a range of middle and lower body afflictions.
Anal Suppositories

Men and women have reported using rectal suppositories to treat anal fissures, hemorrhoid inflammation, digestive issues, Crohn’s and IBS, sciatica, restless leg syndrome, lower back pain, prostate issues, and post-operative pain. Rectal suppositories are also being used for lubrication to mitigate pain during anal intercourse.
Vaginal Suppositories

Vaginal suppositories have been used to ease menstrual cramps, abdominal pain, endometriosis, pelvic discomfort, post-coital pain or inflammation, vaginal dryness and pain with intercourse, as well as for relaxation and sexual enhancement.
Of course, dosing via the vagina or rectum is not as simple as taking a puff or swallowing a pill (lest we forget about gravity). Cannabinoids are tricky molecules and there’s still much to learn scientifically and pragmatically about the efficacy of various delivery systems, including cannabis suppositories.
Thus far, clinical studies have shown no rectal bioavailability of unadulterated THC [2,7]. And while it’s plausible to speculate that cannabinoids could have an effect via local pathways in the colon and elsewhere, those pathways haven’t been studied yet. Although many anecdotal reports are positive, there are some significant discrepancies in observed efficacy [9]. Far more research is needed to better understand exactly how this method works (or doesn’t).
But there’s no need for patients to wait until all the results are in. If you’re curious, suppositories could be worth a try. You probably won’t get a “head high,” according to the legendary Tommy Chong, who uses cannabis suppositories under a doctor’s supervision. Though you might feel a little “butt high,” Chong says with a smile, which is not necessarily a bad thing.
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CBD & Cannabis Dosing

How To Make Your Own Suppositories

If you want to try suppositories at home, you have a few options: you could find them at your local dispensary, order online, or make them yourself with a few simple ingredients.
What You Need


  • Full-extract cannabis oil of your choice
  • A base (organic cacao butter or coconut oil are recommended)
  • Suppository molds (these can be metal, silicone, or plastic)
Instructions


  • Gently heat the base in a pan.
  • Add in the cannabis oil of your choice and mix well.
  • Pour the mixture into the suppository mold and pop it into the freezer.
Tips and Tricks for Use


  • While the onset of effects is highly variable, users typically report feeling effects within 30-60 minutes for vaginal application and 15-30 minutes with rectal administration.
  • The base will melt quickly during contact with warm skin, so keep the suppositories in the freezer until you’re ready to medicate.
  • You can prevent leakage by lying in a horizontal position during insertion and for at least 15-30 minutes after.
  • Try using them at night your first few times. It’s always better to be familiar with potential effects before daytime use.
  • Record your experiences in a journal to identify your patterns and best practices.
(Recipe courtesy of Paula-Noel Macfie)
* Suppositories are not reccomended for use by cancer patients undergoing chemotherapy. According to Dr. Bonni Goldstien, “chemo causes thinning and sloughing of cells of the lining of mucus membranes (which is the tissue of the mouth and rectum) and also decreases the ability of the immune system to fight infection” and inserting a suppository could introduce infection-causing bacteria.
Jelena Grove is a cannabis writer and budtender based in Portland, OR. This is her first article for Project CBD.
Copyright, Project CBD. May not be reprinted without permission.


References


  1. Allen, Lloyd, “Suppositories as drug delivery systems.” Journal of Pharmaceutical Care in Pain & Symptom Control, vol. 5, 1997, https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1300/J088v05n02_03
  2. Elsohly, Mahmoud A., et al. “Rectal Bioavailability of Delta-9-Tetrahydrocannabinol from Various Esters.” Pharmacology Biochemistry and Behavior, vol. 40, no. 3, 1991, pp. 497–502., doi:10.1016/0091-3057(91)90353-4.
  3. ElSohly, Mahmoud, et al. “Pharmacokinetics and Tolerability of ?9 THC Hemisuccinate in a suppository formulation as an alternative to capsules for the systemic delivery of ?9 THC.” Medical Cannabis and Cannabinoids, April. 2018, https://www.karger.com/Article/Pdf/489037.
  4. ElSohly, Mahmoud ,et al, “The effect of orally and rectally administered delta 9-tetrahydrocannabinol on spasticity: a pilot study with 2 patients.” Int. Journal of Clinical Pharmacology and Therapeutics 1996 Oct;34(10):446-52., https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8897084
  5. Gonçalves, Joana, et al. “Cannabis and Its Secondary Metabolites: Their Use as Therapeutic Drugs, Toxicological Aspects, and Analytical Determination.” Medicines (Basel, Switzerland), MDPI, 23 Feb. 2019, www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6473697/.
  6. Maida, Vincent, and Jason Corban. “Topical Medical Cannabis: A New Treatment for Wound Pain—Three Cases of Pyoderma Gangrenosum.” Journal of Pain and Symptom Management, vol. 54, no. 5, 2017, pp. 732–736., doi:10.1016/j.jpainsymman.2017.06.005.
  7. Perlin, Elliott, et al. “Disposition and Bioavailability of Various Formulations of Tetrahydrocannabinol in the Rhesus Monkey.” Journal of Pharmaceutical Sciences, vol. 74, no. 2, 1985, pp. 171–174., doi:10.1002/jps.2600740213.
  8. Purohit, Trusha, et al. “Advances in rectal drug delivery systems.” Pharmaceutical Development and Technology, 24 Jul 2018, https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/10837450.2018.1484766?journalCode=iphd20
  9. Touitou, Elka, and Brian W Barry. “Anatomy and Physiology of the Rectum and Its Role in Drug Absorption.”
  10. Walker, Larry A., et al. “?9-THC Hemisuccinate in Suppository Form as an Alternative to Oral and Smoked THC.” Marihuana and Medicine, 1999, pp. 123–135., doi:10.1007/978-1-59259-710-9_13.
  11. Wright, Karen, et al. “Differential Expression of Cannabinoid Receptors in the Human Colon: Cannabinoids Promote Epithelial Wound Healing.” Gastroenterology, vol. 129, no. 2, 2005, pp. 437–453., doi:10.1053/j.gastro.2005.05.026.

Thanks again, trich.

I'd done a bit of reading re. suppositories and efficacy, and Weez had been critical of some of the assumptions or assertions in support of suppositories.

But yeah, I have 2 lbs. of organic cacao butter chunks here, as well as virgin organic coconut oil, sunflower lecithin, 2 ml suppository molds, empty plastic syringes for administering oral meds to critters and kids, and more.

In short, when I began gathering materials, etc., for this close to 2 months ago, I didn't quite go all-in, but pretty close.

Yes, there appers to be strong assertion that the body makes use of 85% of cannabinoids when used as a suppository, and (some papers say) 35% of cannabinoids are util9zed orally (as opposed to the 6% referenced in your post the other day).

What's been clear in al of this is that there's a whole lot more to be learned about this, and 85 years of prohibition and gate-keeping re. research, mostly by the DEA, now presents itself as a noteworthy barrier to our finding out what we need to know.

As stated, we're still uncertain about the specific cannabinoids, combinations of, or synergy between that causes the benefits to cancer patients. And why only some?

Anyway, woke up a bit earlier than most days... By woke up, I mean I didn't roll back over and close my eyes again.

Had been contending with nausea in the A.M. and sometimes other periods of the day, but had typically just let it pass without any real consequence, suspecting some of the time that the supplements I take on an empty stomach might be a primary contributor to unrest in the belly. Several of them have histories of causing some to feel less than cheery; zinc, magnesium, prostate plus health complex (which, aside from cranberry extract, pumpkin, and other natural ingredients, to include saw palmetto, also has a bit of additional zinc).

Anyway, Yin & Yang were with me this A.M. The negative being that after returning to bed, having taken my pills on an empty gut, the nausea didn't pass, instead going full-circle, and the good news was, I hadn't eaten anything...

If you're going to be sick, there's some benefits to it being on an empty (or mostly empty) stomach. There's also some well-known down-sides.

Having had a lengthy conversation with my brother-in-law last night, whose spouse died of cancer of the brain, and having worked as a MH clinician, I'm more than a little aware of the pressures brought to bear on any significant relationship when life-changing events occur, whether death, disease, unemployment, loss of career, etc., etc.

So my less-than-romantically-appealing predicament this A.M. prompted me to converse with my wife about such pressures, and discuss the direction of any perceived 'push' from the stress that comes hand-in-hand with such situations.

All of that is good, but GODDAMN, at some point a person becomes tired of making lemonade from lemons, and wishes someone would leave a nice bowl of Rainier Cherries sitting on the porch or something..

Another day, hours becoming slightly more normal. I'm hoping that when all of the adjustments to the psychological reality, the dietary changes, and more settle in, that I can cause myself to get up, get my shop taken care of, and get stuff back on track, instead of the whole shitterree becoming subject to this ONE unfortunate moment in time. FUCK!!!!!

Anyway, on to bigger and better things. The -30 f. temps that were called for, let alone the -40 f. my friend in the bush spoke of, are no where to be seen. And it's rumored by NOAA that Tuesday we may see high temps of close to the upper +20's, then +20 on Wednesday and +15 on Thursday and +10 on Christmas Day, so it looks like if I'm on my game (which the jury's been out on lately), maybe I can get some extraction cooked off on Tuesday.... Maybe...

Sending out release of info waivers on Monday to 2 Seattle area clinics and a total of 4 urology surgeons (between the 2 clinics), hoping to hear back form the one, as they have several Docs listed in Seattle's top 20 urology Docs, and they are at some respectable clinics.

Now for some steamed cauliflower, steamed cabbage, and raw broccoli sprouts, followed by a handful of pistachio nuts.

"Livin' the Dream!!!"

No, but livin'
 
T

Teddybrae

Hiya Moose!


Never thought I 'd see the day you used the word 'magic' (a few posts ago). And expense? Yep ... AU$20000 to remove a kidney.


I think you also previously referred to 'unfinished business'. Stuff that needs to be fully 'digested' before one can 'let it go'. Important stuff, that stuff ...



Just wondering: Besides medical issues ... Who have you got to talk to?
 
G

Guest

Hiya Moose!


Never thought I 'd see the day you used the word 'magic' (a few posts ago). And expense? Yep ... AU$20000 to remove a kidney.


I think you also previously referred to 'unfinished business'. Stuff that needs to be fully 'digested' before one can 'let it go'. Important stuff, that stuff ...



Just wondering: Besides medical issues ... Who have you got to talk to?

I use the word magic rarely (as you surmised) and often in quotes. not a believer in magic, other than sometimes as a metaphor for persons who are highly skilled, engaging in some feat that few to no others could pull off; that's a form of 'magic' in my world.

Otherwise, while being a Doubting Thomas, I am more of a realist than most persons I know. I have the optimism, of a hopeful child inside, but rarely let it run free.

The best solutions to problems, imo, are those that take into account the entirety of a situation, good, bad, or ugly, and includes mental or other schematics on what can go wrong at any moment, where, why, how, and who.. etc.

In short, if solutions don't include the totality of reality, they're apt to fall on their ass.

That said, there are times that novel approaches or solutions can take on an air of 'magic,' only in that they are sometimes so obvious or illuminating, that I end up slapping myself in the proverbial forehead as I surprise myself at how often I/we can miss obvious variables or answers.

Re. unfinished business, that can incorporate any number of topics; unfinished business with persons who have passed on leaves persons with baggage and conflict for which they will need more creative resolve to end, and so forth.

In that regard, I believe you may have been referencing my brief mention of my 2 older kids setting themselves up for similar outcomes... But we all know that American young adults and adolescents have the inside scoop on all of life's mysteries, so there's nothing in that trap for them to avoid... unless we talk to them 5 to 20 years after I'm cold rotting tissue in the ground, and they can no longer holler anything approaching witty or effective come-backs, cause I'm in a place where I don't give a rat's ass.

Other than for that, my social circles are intentionally shrunken, and have been for 2-3 years or longer now. Most of the generalized patterns our species possesses in terms of social or group behaviors, leaves them/us as a species to be wary of; not 100% across the board, and not with substantial individual exceptions, but in general, we're a mixed bag, as critters go.

So I have the 3-6 persons I can typically speak with socially, across the globe, whom I can phone, and talk about weather, death, dying, fishing, weed, etc.

Beyond that, more often than ever before in my life, some of the times that I receive incoming phone calls, and I'm attempting to rest, trying to keep my skin, brain, and body together in one place, and not leave a silhouette of my torso's outline in a hole in the ceiling from blasting off into outer space from tension and concerns, as the stress simmers to the point that I can feel my skin popping, and feel like my insides are going to explode graphically, and I tell my wife in non-verbal language to tell who ever is on the phone that I'm asleep.

Long ago I came to the conclusion that having 2 or 3 real friends, who -are- -real- friends, beats the snot out of social media, pretend concern, disingenuousness, or a multiplying of lesser-engaged ears and minds, which often accompanies a lessening of sincerity and an increasing of presence of inflated ego, re. the motivations for the dialogue.

That's led me to a place that I believe, where social membership is involved, that "Less is more."

This thread, aside from reaching out for information for myself and a fair bit of venting or pressure relief of sorts, (and I'm FAR from concluded in gathering all the information I need), will also serve as a disjointed resource, so that if some other poor motherfucker finds that, after they're diagnosed, they're sleeping like a marathon slumber competition is happening, they've lost their strength or desire/will to do those things that will help them to get as better as they can, lost their appetite, are having to flounder through abrupt changes to various aspects of lifestyle, and they're caught in the questionable conclusion of that they're going nuts, and this is unique to them, they can rest in some degree of twisted relief, knowing that there's other disturbed desperado bastards out here that did the same dance they are now consumed by, and that there are solutions for SOME of us, not all, but -some-, where we MAY get back our function, not need to forfeit the joys of life or sex, and not need to embarrass ourselves into old age, filling adult diapers with urine or feces, as people move away from us on buses, or in stores, because we smell funny.

Maybe this isolated thread, in the medical section of a weed site, will be where someone finds out that Docs sometimes/often don't know everything, and when their depressing prognoses makes a person want to put a bullet up-side their own temple, and cover their head with the blankets, feeling like no matter how warm a room is they're cold, and praying to die because there's no hope on the horizon.... they'll realize they're not quite so alone and hopeless, though there's no promises in any of this, other than eventually we pass on... and the System will want money from us for that.

My/our findings, in this thread and elsewhere, is that some Docs are full of shit, and their attitudes, skills, knowledge, and presentation, might be the difference between a patient putting too much stock in what the insensitive healthcare provider uttered without thinking, and deciding to shorten their suffering a'la the Jack Kevorkian model, versus knowing from research, other patients, better Docs, etc., that the negative BS being pushed by Docs who should've -stopped- being Docs the first time they let their own personal BS and burn-out destroy a patient's will to keep going, is not necessarily reality or truth..

That was quite an essay re. your couple of notes, Teddy, but that's a minor glimpse of what's going on in my brain for too long now.
 
Last edited:
G

Guest

Oh, nearly forgot, I sent off my release of info forms to 2 Seattle area clinics/hospitals, to 2 Docs at each hospital.

2 of the Docs at the 1 clinic are toward the top of 1 list's compilation of 'Seattle's best urologists.' (*No subjectivity in those rankings, I'm sure.. but, you go with what you got, knowing that not all information is of equal quality).

Anyway, the preferred (for now) clinic/hospital was one that has a hotel within the hospital, limiting exposure to COVID-19 when/if I'm there.

So furthering the mapping out of needs, plans, etc., I phoned Alaska Airlines...

Rates for round-trip to SeaTac are pretty attractive, if a person doesn't mind flying during the Black Plague. Direct from Interior Alaska to Seattle, round-trip, no stops either way, and currently no difference in pricing between the red-eye, and a more sane, mid-day flight; $256 round-trip. Can't beat that with a stick!!!

That's when the ticket agent informed me that Alaska Airlines will no longer be blocking out seats to provide distance for passengers, re.COVID-19, starting January 7..... and that if I want space for social distancing on those flights, I'll have to buy an 'extra seat.'

At those prices, the 'extra seat' was not entirely a dead-end, no-go deal, so I inquired as to whether or not, since I would be buying 2 seats, do I also receive 2 sets of air miles??.. NOPE. The passenger's name on my second ticket would apparently read, "Extra Seat.' (*Wondered if that invisible person would prefer to be addressed as 'Mr. Seat', or more informally as just 'Extra,' which is likely what they tell their friends to call them). :)

Few efforts have encapsulated the concept of some aspects of life being a matter of '1 step forward and 1 step back', the way this effort has. I told my wife that, looking back at the times I should've been dead or in prison, and the mystical mental exercises that had us toying with ideas such as, all the times things went to shit, helped to pull my proverbial bacon out of the fire in those close calls.... The balance of bad luck interceding to provide good luck; a metaphysical homeostasis of sorts...(*Definitely superstitious, and magical thinking to some degree, but stoking that tiny fire built on 'hope').

Now all I need is for 1 of the top Seattle Docs and clinics to agree they can help me to the extent that I want to be helped, that they believe I have a good chance of over-coming this in the ways I would like or need to, and I'll be giving Alaska Airlines some more of our money or air miles, and then making concrete plans to run the gauntlet of the planes, airports, ground transport, lodging, surgery, and the reverse course, and just like that....

We'll see what happens.
 

buzzmobile

Well-known member
Veteran
That sounds like a plan, moose eater. I like the thought of this thread being an anchor for a drifting soul in the future. You're on one helluva ride, and the thoughts you have shared are common to the disease.
Sharing your fears and emotions and musings and humor is hard work. You're doing a good job.
 
G

Guest

That sounds like a plan, moose eater. I like the thought of this thread being an anchor for a drifting soul in the future. You're on one helluva ride, and the thoughts you have shared are common to the disease.
Sharing your fears and emotions and musings and humor is hard work. You're doing a good job.

Thanks for the encouragement, buzz.

Some mornings I'm faltering in my drive more than others. One of them days.

I need to get to town to get Christmas shopping and groceries done; my youngest son has been incredibly generous with gifts, time, energy, etc., and I cringe when I consider all of the different pressures he's ill-equipped to speak about, and here he is , practically acting like a parent and providing Christmas and support.

While he's a young man now at his age, he's also still a minor who will need to sort out a whole lot of whit in his head about all of this, which he's less adept at discussing that some might be, if only from age and lack of practice.

Time to check a couple more messages, and then head into town for a ham, some gifts, a few other odds and ends.

Mama wants a water pic tooth brush of some decent sort, power tools, and the younger son wants some pillows and in-soles for his work boots. What ever else falls into the cart that catches my eyes is fair game.
 
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Guest

Well, right in line with energy and timing of late, I left for town only about 2-3 hours later than intended, after getting up about 4 hours later than intended.

Dropped more release of info waivers in town, did some Christmas shopping, grocery shopping, and bills, then, when I was down to one last stop, where I might've encountered my older son at his work place, I was feeling some notable nausea, so I decided to just return home.

Was getting ready to have a bite of smoked turkey drum stick, intending to eat a VERY conservative amount, then realized that was equally deserving of the same disdain I have held at times for those who were type II diabetic, who insisted on having bowls of chocolate candies on their desks, as though the whole battle is wrapped up in a pill, with no requirement for personal responsibility and proactivity...

So, there! I got to bitch myself out at Christmas time, just like I do everyone else... So... world!!! We're fucking even now!!.. Maybe.

Phoned home to see if there were any new developments, messages, etc., and was informed that the 1st-choice clinic in Seattle had phoned, and they want to schedule an IN-PERSON interview/consult/appointment.

Apparently they don't do TeleHealth, Zoom, Doxy, or other. Live and in color only.

So I thought about that for a while as I ran errands in town. "No guts, no glory" came to mind several times. As did, "Well, you wanted the gold, right?? That might take some extra."

So I'll call them tomorrow, and in my best submissive voice of politeness, right at the threshold of begging for mercy, ask if I DO head down via aircraft for an in-person consult, what are the chances of going straight into surgery (???), if after the consult is over, they agree they can do for me what I want done, and we still care for each others' company..

At least that would mean only (I'd hope) ONE trip down and back, running the gauntlet of aircraft and airports, persons, passengers, hospital, surgery etc., etc., and back home. One roll of the dice beats the shit out of 2 rolls of the dice at this time, where C-19 risks are involved, so... .I guess we'll see.

Or... If I'm at the top of my 'persuasion game' tomorrow, MAYBE, just MAYBE, I can effectively convince them that a TeleHealth meeting just to get the initial questions out of the way, might be best, and that during COVID-19, they might improve their standing in the Cosmic Metaphysics category if they took into account that they're dealing with persons who are likely immuno-compromised, and they're, at this time, insisting on Interstate travel via airports for initial meetings.

Oh well.. .What are ya' gonna' do??..

So, we'll see what that contact holds for us tomorrow.

And, on the bright side, I managed to avoid puking again. Cool.
 
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Guest

By the way, buzz, re. your past references to coming to see small gains as victories, or something along that line of thought, as of tomorrow, Dec. 23, 2020, we'll get 20 seconds more actual light in the day, as we're past Winter Solstice as of yesterday, 12/21/2020.

It was on the way home that I was listening to a special production on the radio, honoring some of the elders and the older ways and existence in Alaska, presumably First Nations specific.

There was a senior First Nations fellow on there, talking about being born on the trap line, where both his mother and father worked the hides and harvest, I assume some where near the 1940s, which made Alaska a very different place than it is now, in re. to modern conveniences.

Anyway, I thought about the modern conveniences that so many of us, not all, but many, have at our disposal now for things as common as child-birthing, and how being pregnant, ready to birth, and running a trap line with a dog sled team, working her way through the parts of life that don't always coordinate well with other needs.

I felt a bit more safe, more protected by my resources, and wondered that, while it seems cancers have broadened their types and presence in our world, (possibly/probably in part due to our contaminants we accept so readily these days, whether preservatives, pesticides, herbicides, hormonal, anti-bacterial, and on, and on), but that 80 years ago, +/-, when that old-timer was being birthed by candle or kerosene lamp, his mother and father the only ones present, in a tiny trapping cabin in the middle of the bush, that back then a person might not have known they had cancer, had a plague, were pregnant, had what ever form of medical need, until it came to be too late.

In that regard, our safety, sense of tentative existence, and more, is often relative to what we have come to expect.

If I had been present in person with that old feller, I probably would've, in non-C-19 times, patted him on the back, offered an embrace, and told him, "Man, that must've been pretty tough, and your parents must've been pretty damned amazing people!"
 

buzzmobile

Well-known member
Veteran
Those precious seconds add up. Merry Christmas, moose eater. Your reference to 'magic' a few posts back made me think of a corresponding term of 'angel'. They are out there in the medical community and to find one is your goal. My angel came in the form of the tech who ran the EBRT. He and I 'clicked' and we shared stories of fishing and baseball and cancer and radio and jigsaw puzzles. ;) My angel made coming back day after day for my 'dose' tolerable.

Give those folks in Seattle a full meal of schmooze and hang on.
:D
 
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Guest

Those precious seconds add up. Merry Christmas, moose eater. Your reference to 'magic' a few posts back made me think of a corresponding term of 'angel'. They are out there in the medical community and to find one is your goal. My angel came in the form of the tech who ran the EBRT. He and I 'clicked' and we shared stories of fishing and baseball and cancer and radio and jigsaw puzzles. ;) My angel made coming back day after day for my 'dose' tolerable.

Give those folks in Seattle a full meal of schmooze and hang on.
:D

Thanks buzz.

Yes, when I had spine surgery they served me a hefty portion of anesthetic, and I was about 4+ hours longer than the average person waking up.

When I opened up my eyes, had no idea who I was, where I was, etc., and was in some sort of seizure.

The woman tending to me 1:1 in my 'recovery area' was truly an angel; she stayed with me from the recovery area where she was with me for over 6 hours, on up through the maze of corridors and elevators form surgery recovery to my hospital bed.

She's yet another person for whom I meant to put a letter of commendation into her personnel file, but never did. Maybe still can, as it's not that long ago, really.

Anyway, the electronic records my local urology office sent o the 1st-choice clinic in Seattle are apparently minimally readable, so it was another 1 step forward, 2 steps back, again.

They are not able at this time to do any telephonic or computer consultations, so we're at that point of seeing who it is I would need to consult with, and maybe trying to line up a series of consults with various Docs from each tx modality they offer, and have enough time in between to not get tooo lost.

They have access to a town car/limo service, where I can get a car by myself to the hospital from SeaTac, and back again, alone in the car, and in theory, a disinfected vehicle.

A relatively simple room is not that expensive, and I've been offered air miles to get to and from SeaTac and home.

The ball is rolling, albeit with some less than perfectly rounded edges thumping along.

It seems I finally have some medical personnel involved who don't just look at me and ask, "So, Mr. Non-Doctor, what kind of treatment do you want us to provide?", instead, acknowledging that THEY are the pros, and I'm just the lesser-educated schmuck who just found out 2 months ago he has cancer near his nards.

Anyway, I doubt I'll hear back from the hospital in reference until next week, or maybe the next, but we'll see. Positive movement is good. Takes a minor amount of pressure out of the chest and mind.
 
G

Guest

Those precious seconds add up. Merry Christmas, moose eater. Your reference to 'magic' a few posts back made me think of a corresponding term of 'angel'. They are out there in the medical community and to find one is your goal. My angel came in the form of the tech who ran the EBRT. He and I 'clicked' and we shared stories of fishing and baseball and cancer and radio and jigsaw puzzles. ;) My angel made coming back day after day for my 'dose' tolerable.

Give those folks in Seattle a full meal of schmooze and hang on.
:D

Oh, and Merry Christmas to you, too, buzz.

I meant to include a coupe questions for you and others, includ9g some who made contributions to this thread last year, who either had successful treatments, or others close to them who had such experiences..

You did radiation, if I recall, buzz, correct?

How long was your tx again?

Pain after procedure?

Time involved until normal bowel and bladder processes?

Time until normal sexual function?

Prosthetics or chemistry required for normal sexual activity or was it strictly non-spontaneous post-surgery?

And folks, anyone in addition to buzz, who has pertinent information, or can ask someone they know, please, PLEASE, feel invited to chime in. At this time, I'm 3 steps away from navigating this whole conundrum by brail, and there's few opportunities for do-overs here.

Thanks. Really..
 
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