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Making your own Bottle Rocket - how do you keep it from burning too fast ?

St. Phatty

Active member
I have been thinking about Bottle Rockets.

900px-Space_Shuttle_Columbia_launching.jpg



On some of the Space Shuttle launches, they use a Solid Fuel Rocket, like a bottle rocket.

Those 2 white things on the side - special solid fuel rockets designed for Space Shuttle launches.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_...lid_Rocket_Boo ster

2.8 Million Pounds of Thrust from each booster. They used the Deion Sanders approach and used 2.


When I was younger, we lived in Greece, and it was my turn to have a Lesser Bedroom. I slept in a hall closet next to my older brother's bedroom.

My father was a chemist, and he told my older brother what to buy for fireworks.

Of course, the factory shops in Athens were plenty happy to sell Potassium Perchlorate to a 16 year old American kid.​

So he made fireworks in his bedroom, next to my Hall closet.


So I was about 14, and my next younger brother was about 11.

The younger brother made a mistake lighting somebody else's home-made firework.

The fuse burned too fast, and gave him a serious burn on his hand. Fortunately it didn't explode.

So I look at these larger rockets, and I wonder - what do the Space Shuttle astronauts think about sitting on top of 2 boosters, each with 1.1 Million pounds of Solid Rocket fuel ?

Isn't it kind of important that it burn slowly, and not all at once ?

"Ammonium perchlorate composite propellant (APCP) is a modern fuel used in solid-propellant rocket vehicles. It differs from many traditional solid rocket propellants such as black powder or zinc-sulfur, not only in chemical composition and overall performance but also by the nature of how it is processed. APCP is cast into shape, as opposed to powder pressing as with black powder."


How do you cast 1.1 million pounds of APCP ? Besides, very carefully.

When they cast the APCP into shape, Do they just turn the rocket fuel chamber upside down, and pour in the fuel after it's been heated enough to make it pour-able ? Sounds like they make a bunch of sections. 22 sections of fuel each weighing 50,000 pounds might be easier to handle than 1 big section with 1.1 Million pounds of fuel ?


ORGANIC ROCKET FUEL

Sometimes, people use Black Powder as a rocket propellant.

Potassium Nitrate, Carbon, and Sulfur.

Contains 3 of the 6 primary & secondary plant fertilizers !

"Black powder (gunpowder) propellant[edit]

Black powder (gunpowder) is composed of charcoal (fuel), potassium nitrate (oxidizer), and sulfur (fuel and catalyst). It is one of the oldest pyrotechnic compositions with application to rocketry. In modern times, black powder finds use in low-power model rockets (such as Estes and Quest rockets),[SUP][23][/SUP][SUP][24][/SUP] as it is cheap and fairly easy to produce."

:skiiing:

Good Pot today !

schematic.jpg
 

brickweeder

Well-known member
for bottle rocket propellants, you need to go with a nitrate-based powder. pot chlorate and perchlorate are much stronger oxidixers than pot nitrate and burn substantially quicker and more violently than nitrate based propellants. Using these in a bottle rocket will likely lead to an accelerated pressure event. For casting the propellants in boosters, I think the fuel component is important. If you have ever made a smoke bomb by mixing pot nitrate and suger, then carmelizing the mixture over low flameless heat, it becomes a consolidated hard mass on cooling....absolutely no powder remains. it is castable. Can't do this with charcoal as the only fuel component. I took a part an estes engine before...it was a hard mass like brittle plastic that would not powder. It reminded me of some kind of polymer...but it is nitrate based according to their website. not sure how they so it.
 

flylowgethigh

Non-growing Lurker
ICMag Donor
Those solid rocket boosters were the astronauts worst nightmare. Once lit, there was no turning them off. There is a lot of aluminum in the fuel in the solid boosters (plus Amonium Perchlorate). They had an issue with huge chunks of aluminum slag bouncing around inside the boosters during the burn. It would be there when they recovered the boosters. I don't think they ever figured that one out

The boosters were made in segments, which were stacked up and bolted together. The joint of the segments had o-rings inside to seal gasses from sneaking past the gap between segments, and going outside. Gas is hot and abrasive, you don't want gas going where it shouldn't. Like water erosion, a path is soon made. They decided to go ahead and launch that shuttle (teacher and all) cause Reagan was scheduled to talk wit the teacher later in the day. Icicles were hanging off the shuttle the morning they launched it. The rubber o-rings were frozen solid, not pliable any longer like when they are warm. The rubber n the booster was hard. So when they fired the booster and the pressure jumped up inside, gas got past the cold hard rubber and o-ring seals, making a path. Once a path is started, and there is no way of turning off the booster, they were fucked. Too bad the path ended up pointing right to an attach point for the booster, and it burned through and hit the main liquid tank.

I saw the explosion from the ground like a lot of people in South Florida did that day. The boosters were still burning for a while, like real bottle rockets, until they sent the destruct signal.

Musk's liquid fuel throttle-able rockets are better. Notice he is the only space billionaire who hasn't flown on his own toys?
 
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brickweeder

Well-known member
Look up "R candy" for how to home-make solid fuel rockets with cast propellant.

So the old smoke formulation is also a booster propellant. I remember the morton thiokol o-ring disaster...wouldn't want to ride on solid fuel, or liquid fuel for that matter.
 

Sunshineinabag

Active member
I'm not picky at all
willy Pete don't play
Then again a lithium cell phone battery small exposure opening to inner battery
get kinda hot tooo
 

trichrider

Kiss My Ring
Veteran
black powder isn't a great choice...heck even rocket candy burns too quickly.
i've used baking soda to cut it (the rocket candy)with to slow the burn when making smoke grenades, and even mixed paraffin with it.
i don't do rockets anymore, they are destructive to roof tiles...lol

try this video for your purpose.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iX5uPvi33Zo

A couple of points related to this chemical- Sufficiently fine ammonium perchlorate doesn't need to be mixed with a fuel to DETONATE, similar to the explosive properties of bulk ammonium nitrate. Check the UN shipping classification- AP finer than 15 micron particle size and dry ships as division 1.1, high explosives.
AP for propellant use is carefully segregated by particle size, only a particular "cut" of particle sizes is chosen for any specific application. If you want repeatable results, you will need to control for AP particle size. Don't try to use random sized powders for rocket engines. Also, use a binder that doesn't FOAM as the insulation product used here does! Those bubbles would lead to very fast burning and probably an exploded motor. If you wish to mix AP with Magnesium as was done for the "rocket fuel" (and have the mixture last more than a short time), you had best coat the Mg particles with chromate. This may be done by adding the Mg powder to a hot water solution of Potassium dichromate, then filter, dry and dispose of the nasty hexavalent chromium waste solution responsibly- It would be better to use a fine spheroidal Aluminum powder, as is usual for aerospace applications. Although Al powder based fuel may not ignite for demonstrations easily when unconfined, it is what you want in real world rocket fuel applications. If you have very fine Hafnium carbide powder available at your lab, you might find mixing some of THAT with fine AP and igniting the mixture entertaining. Even though HfC is used as a refractory ceramic, it burns with lots of energy once you get it going...

be safe
 

St. Phatty

Active member
The guy I learned investment casting from, Jim Kaye, was an engineer-manager who worked at the rocket motor test site.

After he retired he started Kaye's Tumblecraft in El Cajon CA.

He told me that he saw UFO's as an occasional occurrence, simply watching his test site.

He taught a 6 week class in Silver and Gold casting that I took twice.
 

St. Phatty

Active member
make sure you dont jack parson yourself

I think the SL1 lab accident is close to the top - of the list of things you don't want to try.

Lab worker was standing on top of the reactor when it exploded.

Long cylindrical fuel assembly Impaled the guy from the groin to the shoulder, pinned him to the ceiling, where he died.

Sort of like Crucifixion, without the Resurrection. 3 workers died.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SL-1
 

St. Phatty

Active member
Covid19 disruptions remind me of 89 Earthquake disruptions.

When the Bay Bridge went down, everybody's commute was disrupted.

Everyone started commuting on the Highway 92 bridge.

There was a terrible accident that was similar to the SL1 skewering accident, except it happened to a woman.

Some truck dropped short pieces of re-bar onto the roadway.

One of them came up through the bottom of someone's car, ended up impaling a driver.

Always wondered about the back history of that accident. About the truck that was carrying the re-bar.
 
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