"Legalization" leading to monopolies on genetics?

[Crazy Chester]

I'm writing this because recently I was looking for CBG seeds and couldn't find any that didn't come with an agreement to not reproduce the seeds attached to it. This, along with seed producers increasingly only offering feminized or autoflowering seeds, I believe has, and will continue to, restrict the genetics that would otherwise be used as medicine by those who need it from actually having it.

On the opposite side of the spectrum, one seed producer, "7 East Genetics" also sells their seeds with an agreement attached. Unlike the others, the agreement prohibits the buyer from applying for intellectual property protection for either the plants grown out from their seeds or any seeds made with the plants and that restriction is applied to everyone who uses the genetics downstream of the seed buyer.

It's a kind of forced "open source" method of keeping the genetics available to as many people as possible.

I'm starting to think that if enough seed producers don't do what "7 East" is doing, monopolies on certain genetics will be enforced via intellectual property laws by the courts - which will make it tougher for some to get the genetics - and impossible for others who will not be able to afford the price.

Thoughts?

 

[Zeez]

On the large scale, they are all mutts. Even with that, I expect large corporations wit lots of lawyers to try and copyright all the genetics.

 

[Crazy Chester]

On the large scale, they are all mutts. Even with that, I expect large corporations wit lots of lawyers to try and copyright all the genetics.

Welcome, Zeev!

True - they will try to "own" all the genetics. A seed maker finds out they can do that and then purports to own "Chem '91 Skunk VA cut", for example. That's what I'm worried about - them trying to own what has already been sold without a limitation on it. But, I agree, they're "mutts" - so I could care less what they do with their own genetics. It's the ones that have been open source for years, if not decades, that I worry about.

 

[Zeez]

Welcome, Zeev!

True - they will try to "own" all the genetics. A seed maker finds out they can do that and then purports to own "Chem '91 Skunk VA cut", for example. That's what I'm worried about - them trying to own what has already been sold without a limitation on it. But, I agree, they're "mutts" - so I could care less what they do with their own genetics. It's the ones that have been open source for years, if not decades, that I worry about.

The thing is, if they are all mutts then they all have some of everything. Even if corporations could claim specific percentages of landraces, those would still have variations with dominant and recessive genes with different combinations of traits or phenotypes showing up. They would have to genetically engineer their own pure strain. That said, this is America and it's probably allot easier to steal somebody's strain, claim it as their own and hire a bunch of lawyers.

 

[Switcher56]

Welcome, Zeev!

True - they will try to "own" all the genetics. A seed maker finds out they can do that and then purports to own "Chem '91 Skunk VA cut", for example. That's what I'm worried about - them trying to own what has already been sold without a limitation on it. But, I agree, they're "mutts" - so I could care less what they do with their own genetics. It's the ones that have been open source for years, if not decades, that I worry about.

Welcome to the free market "legal". Hey we pushed for it. Did anyone think we would be having this convo? Hell no! Capitalism at its best.

 

[Crazy Chester]

Welcome to the free market "legal". Hey we pushed for it. Did anyone thing we would be having this convo? Hell no! Capitalism at its best.

Yes - I knew we'd be having this convo. However, I wanted "legal" anyway, because it did mostly what I thought it would do - get rid of draconian sentencing, at least in some states. California law is now: anyone can grow as much as they want, transport as much as they want and sell as much as they want and face only misdemeanors! And, that's if they are caught! But, why would LE waste time on misdemeanors? And even if they did - the DA isn't going to waste the time to prosecute it = null pros discharge without formal charges being brought.

Sure, the Feds can do their own thing, but, I don't think the US Attorney is going to be interested even in violations of the 100 plant limit - they are looking for thousands of plants and preferably thousands of pounds.

The risk of growing and selling has gone done in a huge way in California.

I also predicted "legal" would bring back the black market with a vengeance. That has happened, will continue to happen and will accelerate.

It's all part of a long term plan for the nuts that run government. I predict that eventually they will tighten up the penal consequences of not being "legal" and eventually go back to the way it was.

But, that's many years off. Until then, this is the golden age of black market producers - at least in California.

Even if corporations could claim specific percentages of landraces, those would still have variations with dominant and recessive genes with different combinations of traits or phenotypes showing up. They would have to genetically engineer their own pure strain.

I hadn't thought of it that way - I've got to think on that one a bit, for sure.

 

[zaprjaques]

i think ryan lee talked about that topic on the pot cast.
first you have to prove your cultivar is unique in order to claim intelectual property rights.
then if somebody outcrosses it i wonder how much of that 'uniqueness' ,wich will be hard to pinpoint in the first place, will be left.

 

[Crazy Chester]

i think ryan lee talked about that topic on the pot cast.
first you have to prove your cultivar is unique in order to claim intelectual property rights.
then if somebody outcrosses it i wonder how much of that 'uniqueness' ,wich will be hard to pinpoint in the first place, will be left.

Another good point - there's just so many IP issues being worked out with cannabis right now...

 

[Zeez]

In the end it might just be who has the most lawyers and money regardless of genetic likeness.

 

[Crazy Chester]

In the end it might just be who has the most lawyers and money regardless of genetic likeness.

That's what usually happens, for sure. But, that's what the "open source" licensing of releases of genetics by the breeder/grower would likely prevent. For example, no amount of lawyers has resulted in anyone "owning" the Linux operating system.

 

[BlackBacardi]

It's an interesting problematic, something that the laws don't cover yet. I'm intrigued to see where these seeds take us.

 

[SmithJN]

Personally, I'm on my way to opening a dispensary, so this gives me one reason more that I need to actually open it. People trying to combine the seeds so that they can have exclusive rights on the product can be a really big problem when the resulted products won't be tested and declared safe anymore, just directly sold on the market. I feel like this is why we need to have enough dispensaries in the city so that people don't feel the need to buy from these sketchy "breeders" that might not be safe to consume from all the transformations the product when through. It's a hard process, that for opening a dispensary, but even a hair shop is hard to open. Thankfully there appear to be more and more sites that help guide you with the process, for example here is a link to an amazing one that I've just found while searching for price tags for such products.

 

[Rider420]

While the rest of the world lags behind Canada's legalization has gone smoothly. FYI in Canada no one owns a cultivar or if you like the slang a strain. And now you can buy legal seeds like "headband" from different producers. I love 34 street super lemon haze great yield and even better buzz :

• Yield: High
• THC: 21-26%
• CBD: < 1%
• Terpenes: 2% +
• Flower Period: 10 Weeks
• Lineage: Silver Haze X Lemon Skunk

Next seeds I'm getting is:

ZFPOG NEW!


Zkltz X OG X Fruity Pebbles

Photoperiod; Feminized

Yield: High
THC: 23 – 33%
CBD: < 1%
Terpenes: 3+%
Flower Period: 9 weeks
Lineage: Zktlz X Fruity Pebbles X OG

Or maybe:

Chocolate Cake NEW!
Double Chocolate X Wedding Cake X Gelato 33
Photoperiod; Feminized
Yield: High
THC: 20 – 27%
CBD: < 1%
Terpenes: 1.5 – 3%
Flower Period: 9 – 10 weeks
Lineage: Double Chocolate X Wedding Cake X Gelato 33

Not bad cultivars for $50.00 cnd a pop

 

[El Timbo]

That said, this is America

No... this is an international forum on the planet earth.

 

[Amynamous]

In my understanding, no one can patent a plant that is already part of the public domain. As an extension, I seriously doubt that someone could patent a cross of two existing strains, although i am sure someone will try. Add in the global cannabis breeding/pollen chucking market and i would think it near impossible and prohibitably expensive to enforce.

 

[Radicle Rye]

They can patent anything from leaf shape to smell with utility patents (PVP). All you have to do is grow the plant out once to be eligible to apply for a patent. This has been an ongoing problem in the breeding world for a very long time. This is why we see things like the Open Source Seed Initiative (OSSI) being created to create a legal safe guard for the public. In terms of creating a public commons for genetic material for the future of breeding. I know there have been initiatives in the cannabis world around this as well. I think Frank Morton from Wild Garden Seed puts it best in his articles online. Here are the links:

Plant Patents on Common Vegetables

What if you knew that 90% of the lettuce in salad mix that you eat is from lettuce varieties that corporations hold a utility patent on? Fuck Salanova!

 

[Rider420]

They can patent anything from leaf shape to smell with utility patents (PVP). All you have to do is grow the plant out once to be eligible to apply for a patent. This has been an ongoing problem in the breeding world for a very long time. This is why we see things like the Open Source Seed Initiative (OSSI) being created to create a legal safe guard for the public. In terms of creating a public commons for genetic material for the future of breeding. I know there have been initiatives in the cannabis world around this as well. I think Frank Morton from Wild Garden Seed puts it best in his articles online. Here are the links:

Plant Patents on Common Vegetables

What if you knew that 90% of the lettuce in salad mix that you eat is from lettuce varieties that corporations hold a utility patent on? Fuck Salanova!

Even in the States you can't patent seeds or cultivars of plants. You can only patent a clone!

You misunderstand the difference between plant patent and utility patents.

Cannabis Plant Patents and Requirements for Plant Patents (natlawreview.com)


Plant patents are different than utility patents. Utility patents are granted to anyone who invents or discovers a new and useful process, machine, article of manufacture, or composition of matter. Plant patents are granted to anyone who invents or discovers and asexually reproduces any distinct and new variety of plant. Plant patents were traditionally granted on useful sports that could be propagated by cloning — such as an early-flowering fruit tree or a new-colored rose.

Plant patents provide much narrower protection than utility patents. A utility patent gives its owner the right to prevent anyone in the US from making, using, selling, offering to sell, or importing the claimed invention. A plant patent gives its owner similar rights, but only for clones of the patented plant. In other words, a plant patent does not cover plants grown from seeds of the patented mother plant.

 

[Radicle Rye]

Even in the States you can't patent seeds or cultivars of plants. You can only patent a clone!

You misunderstand the difference between plant patent and utility patents.

Cannabis Plant Patents and Requirements for Plant Patents (natlawreview.com)


Plant patents are different than utility patents. Utility patents are granted to anyone who invents or discovers a new and useful process, machine, article of manufacture, or composition of matter. Plant patents are granted to anyone who invents or discovers and asexually reproduces any distinct and new variety of plant. Plant patents were traditionally granted on useful sports that could be propagated by cloning — such as an early-flowering fruit tree or a new-colored rose.

Plant patents provide much narrower protection than utility patents. A utility patent gives its owner the right to prevent anyone in the US from making, using, selling, offering to sell, or importing the claimed invention. A plant patent gives its owner similar rights, but only for clones of the patented plant. In other words, a plant patent does not cover plants grown from seeds of the patented mother plant.

I believe that this article is focused on current legal precedent of cannabis patents. It is a lawyer journal reporting strictly in a legal context within the confides of federal cannabis patent law.

My first response was from the context of cannabis under USDA control Federal Legalization, just to be clear. I am talking about the future of cannabis here and drawing comparison to what has happened inside the vegetable/grain/fruit breeding world.

Check out this hemp patent then and you can clearly see that it expressly states in the first sentence "sexual reproduced" as a patent protection . On the 4th page you can see the whole breeding map and how the patent was pulled off of a commercial seed lot, NOT A CLONE after selecting two f2 clones and selfing one.

HempHURV19PANplant patent certificate and application

The article I linked to in my first post talks about how corporations have placed utility patents on plants due to its novelty. Like Salanova lettuce varieties. They have a utility patent on the seeds you buy because of the leaf structure of the lettuce head. All the leaves grow essentially the same size. They literally have 2 utility patents that if they want to pursue ($$$) could end your breeding project because of your lettuce leaf shape and/or resistance to disease. Here are the patents:

Salanova Utility Patent for Leaf Shape

Salanova Utility Patent for Aphid Resistance

Now that cannabis is in the realm of Agriculture with legalization we need to start looking at how corporations have used these "tools" to hoard genetics on pretty much every thing a farmer could plant. Here is the whole list of patents placed on crops within the USA.

Plant Patent List - USDA

Hope this clears some things up!

 

[Rider420]

LOL sure buddy legalizing cannabis is a giant conspiracy by corporations to make money from it! Better run and hide chicken little "they" corporations are coming to steal farmers seeds.
I grew up on my family's farm and we thrived because we bought our seeds every year that produced a lot more and better vegetables then our neighbours "heirloom" seeds. BTW its the same with cannabis legal producers like 34 street is miles above most of the crap seeds you buy illegally both in buzz and yield. Good luck buddy and remember the only constant in this reality is change.

You can buy heirloom seeds online its only "NEW" GMO and clones of Sports that can be patented.

Point is existing cannabis cultivars cannot be patented only GMO and Sports ergo there will be no monopoly, Its like coke you can patent the name coke but not the ingredients you use to make it.

BTW the plants patent list has every plant you can grow and most have multiple patents but none of them own the plants just the sports they have patented. If you were right and you could own the patent on a plant like corn why is there been over 1500 patents issued?

 

[Radicle Rye]

LOL sure buddy legalizing cannabis is a giant conspiracy by corporations to make money from it! Better run and hide chicken little "they" corporations are coming to steal farmers seeds.
I grew up on my family's farm and we thrived because we bought our seeds every year that produced a lot more and better vegetables then our neighbours "heirloom" seeds. BTW its the same with cannabis legal producers like 34 street is miles above most of the crap seeds you buy illegally both in buzz and yield. Good luck buddy and remember the only constant in this reality is change.

You can buy heirloom seeds online its only "NEW" GMO and clones of Sports that can be patented.

Point is existing cannabis cultivars cannot be patented only GMO and Sports ergo there will be no monopoly, Its like coke you can patent the name coke but not the ingredients you use to make it.

BTW the plants patent list has every plant you can grow and most have multiple patents but none of them own the plants just the sports they have patented. If you were right and you could own the patent on a plant like corn why is there been over 1500 patents issued?

If you don't think corporations are in favor of legalizing cannabis to make money then you have lost the plot. Maybe you should look on the stock exchange and diversify your retirement with cannabis corporation stocks. I think you need to understand the breeding terms that you are using.

Heirloom variety = open pollinated and stabilized for 50 years +
Hybrid = two open pollinated varieties crossed
F1 commercial hybrid = two inbreed lines crossed
GMO = rDNA CRISPER technology
Sport = Is a loose term to describe a plant or a branch in a certain population that has some special characteristics. Its original use was in the world of fruit trees. All the elite clones could be considered sports.

If you would look at the hemp patent that I linked in the previous post, you will see that that particular variety was derived from one variety KC VIRTUS and from selection through 2 generations. They are claiming a new variety simply on selection and of a previous variety. So a new variety can come from simple selection off of an heirloom variety. All they have to do is claim "novelty".

To be clear Coke is a registered trade mark for the sake of branding and has nothing to due with plant patent protections. Obviously you can't own corn as a whole. But you sure as fuck can't start a breeding project with BT corn and think that you are not going to get a letter from Bayer telling you to stop.