Serious talk about legalization

[raygun]

So I had been thinking of this for a long time now as to what would be a grand plan for legalization. I think that it can be done and once the US does it most the rest of the world will follow suite I believe.

I want to open this up to discussion pros/cons lets put some serious # down for if we were writting a bill to be past. Tax%, lic fees, I would like to model it after how we handle Alcohol production currently as I think that system worked and got organized crime out of the business and cut crime rates dramastically and created a new source of wealth and a new sector of the legal taxable economy.

Please dont come in and be a nay sayor, offer a solution to the current problem. Or shut your mouth and bind your typing fingers as pointing out a problem with out offering a solution is worthless. Find another thread to post your its never going to happen pesamistic, Raygun's an idiot for starting this post, additude.

For everyone else that can keep an open mind and solutions please contribute

This is what I would like to see happen:

• Legalize cannabis for personal use
  
  
• Grows for personal use only are ok with out a lic., registration or inspection.
  
  
• Growing on a commercial scale would need to be controled by an ajency similar to alcohol beverage control (ABC). For all commercial brewing opporations they need to register and get lic for production. ABC also keeps tabs on the amount of ingrediants used vs. produced product. They keep tabs on water, grains, hops (if used) ect so they know how much should be produced to deter illegal production. So this would create jobs on the govt side.
  
  
• commercial grows would have to register, pay tax and lic $$$ be inspected and keep strict records of production.
  
  
• Licensing and production guidelines for what would be acceptable levels would have to be decided on a local (state/county) level, similar to how alcohol is regulated across the country. you have dry states, counties, even some places with % of alcohol restrictions on the beer that can be sold and even transported through the state.
  
  
• Transportation would be restricted to with in producing gardens state. This would hopefully keep big business (PM, RJR or the other tobacco producers) from blowing it up. Also it would help support state business more. ***I really worry about big business taking control over the production but i guess they could compete with and perhaps get out the cartels from importing brick weed. I just don't see them being able to produce the quality desired on such a massive scale. You would have to get lic $$$ to transport large amounts as well.
  
  
• Sales of it would be handeled just like alcohol or tobacco. Get lic and pay the fee $$$ for sale and have the local (city/county)communty.

The amount of $$$ that would be made off the tax and lic of all this is so rediculous i can not believe it is not legal and regulated. This is what I want to get actually calculated. Find real #'s for the amount of $$$ to be made and saved, that is where this will ultimately have it's power, unfortunatly...

The DEA could still go after the unlicensed commercial grower, cartels and free up more time for going after meth houses and other harder drugs that effect our society on such a greater level. Releasing non-violent MJ prisoners would save the tax payers X#$$$$$. These are the type of #'s that are needed to be compiled.

Now I know this has holes all over it but i think its a very reasonable start or outline and I have thought for many many years about what would make most every one happy on both sides. There are still people who would like to see alcohol and tobacco made illegal... so you are never going to please everyone.

I'm Raygun and this is my plan for a better, stronger America

 

[Guest]

I like how far you've taken the details for this, and would certainly love to see some numbers crunched someday. If enough information could be gathered, I agree with you that the amount of money we're talking about here would be astronomically large.

There are a lot of models in our society for how something like this could be regulated; legal poisons (tobacco/alcohol) and pharmaceuticals of all levels have varying controls, taxes, and production standards that have been tweaked over a long period of time.

If I didn't have to run right now, I'd try to dig up some research on these precedents, and maybe some general-use figures for cannabis consumption in legal vs illegal regions and in the US in general. With this sort of info, we might be able to roll out some speculative numbers. Even if we shoot low on all our approximations the result will still be massive.

I'm going to subscribe this and try to dig up some info later.

Good post,
~A

 

[icmag.is.#1]

"The DEA could still go after the unlicensed commercial grower"

That's the only thing I do not like about your plan. It's still a waste of time to pursue MJ

 

[raygun]

~A:
Thats what I'm talkin about!

"The DEA could still go after the unlicensed commercial grower"

That's the only thing I do not like about your plan. It's still a waste of time to pursue MJ

Agreed but you can't have it all. You are allowed to grow for personal consumption. If you want to grow for profit get a lic go legit. Just like with a lot of other jobs/businesses in the world you need a lic to do. a carpenter, a mechanic, a Dr. even a hairstylist. Most business require a business lic. so why not your cannabis farm?
Its about controling and regulating the market. They still go after bootleggers.

Keep it comming

 

[FreedomFGHTR]

Where you mention ABC controlling brewers and distillers thats only partially correct. They are also subject to the ATF. In fact at the level of actual production the ATF overseas most of it. ABC is usually a state or county agency in most areas. But hey it gives cops something to do so they don't lose their jobs either.... Also alcoholic beverages that are imported deal with customs and atf and don't have any oversight for their production the foreign governments do.

 

[raygun]

Freedom - You got the gist of it though. ABC is the localy controled eliment of the equasion. I think it should be more controlled on a local level. Let the people decide in there state what type of commercial production they want.

 

[dr.ofthesmoke]

I think your on to something there raygun but at what plant count would you separate commercial with registration and all that and personal grow. I feel that since mj has been illegial for sooo long that if this were to be the way, then those who had personal gardens and say grew 20 plants perpetual and had alot of left over mj, then just human nature to sell some of the excess and have alittle extra spending money non taxed. Thats where the Feds would step in and apply old law maybe since no taxes or inspections for public safety control was done. It would be cool since more and more states are putting in for med compassion and more press about the failed war on mj and how its not really as bad as the govt says....someday the govt just come out and say we cant spend any more resources to fight a war we havent won since the Reagan era, with new medical research it was found the original data was flawed and we will now allow consenting adults age(determined) to do as raygun outlined above. then the country could tackle the economy problem much more effectively and those who have dreamed of growing big could finally do in live out their dream in full peace and have a lifestyle they wouldnt have to hide and provide a valuable service to the med community and those who just wanted to smoke occassionally and didnt want the work of maintaining a garden.
When will these people open their eyes and finally realize with all the state voting on mmj, maybe they were not right all these years and somehow them come out not looking like complete idiots. It is known that the law to enact prohibition in the 30's was so flawed and based on such immorality that it should be reviewed in congress at the very least. Alot of harmless people who could otherwise be living productive lives with their families are spending wasteful time in prison for growing a God given plant for Christs sake that positively enables the lives of millions daily.
If we are a free country and this is a democracy, then start by reviewing the original prohibition act from in the beginning and getting rid of it. Let the all 50 states control their commercial vs personal and both benefit from the taxes gained by the sale. I guarentee you there will not be an incendive then to drop the market prices because of supply and demand will still be at what it is now and they will want to maximize their financial yeild as well. Let there be one standard recipe to follow as above and have penalties in place for those who abuse it. Honestly, I think that may be one way it could possibly work for both sides. The commercial guys wouldnt have to be so worried about them coming in for inspections cause they could rent warehouse space and such and work it as a day job and no disruption in the home. Man, doesnt hurt to dream at least. I think you have a pretty good idea there.

 

[jaysplifferton]

If pot were legalized, then people would probably try it who never would otherwise, and likely a large amount of these people would find it pleasurable or at least see that it's not as bad as it is in the commercials. The problem is, FOR pot to be legal, these people would have to already know that, which is realistically not going to happen. It's like a catch 22.

The reason I started smoking was because I was fed up with all of the propriety-related BS that everyone around me was doing (IE high school football, kissing teachers ass, etc). I needed to separate myself from those people, and think for myself, so I went the way of the green. These are probably the wrong reasons to start using drugs, but it was also out of curiosity. Problem is, the people who were worried about their rep are still worried about their rep, and without ever trying it they've dismissed it based on what they've heard and the fact that it's illegal. Granted, it's not right for everybody, but to at least understand the basics isn't that hard. How do we educate the stubborn, when they won't even listen to the arguments regarding the pragmatism of locking up so many people for a non-violent crime? when they think that cancer patients are just trying to get high? when the black market funds terrorism, and they use that as an argument FOR criminalization?

Ignorance, self-righteousness, and greed are the enemies of legalization, and those threads run deep. I'm glad our president admitted to smoking pot, it's too bad now he just smokes cigarettes... yet strangely apropos.

That said, your system sounds good and thorough. But unfortunately, it's just a little too rational for the US.

 

[Danger Mouse]

Great thread raygun! I like the way your mind works. My gut feeling is that you're on the right track.

I agree with Jaysplifferton that before we can get into actual legalization, we need a massive public education/marketing effort. I think marketing types are pretty evil (no offence to those on this board), but nothing big seems to get done without them. I've always wondered why NORMAL or other pro-weed organizations don't run full blown marketing campaigns with full-page newspaper/magazine ads dispelling the lies and misinformation related to our awesome plant. Seems to me they don't do much (that we hear about, anyway) but maintain a good Web site and comment occasionally on weed news.

Anyway, once the public is seriously educated about weed, THEN you submit your prepared legalization legislation brief.

 

[raygun]

j~ you gave ne neg rep for this? Please tell me you're not that much of a douch and it was a mistake...

My girls going kick my but if I don't go and watch Iron Man...
I'll get back at y'all later. I like your thoughts and I have some ways and ideas.

 

[blakhash]

Im keeping an open mind here. I love were ya going with it tho.

The Bad= The tobacco and alcohol industry make so much freggin money its going to be hard to get them on Mary Janes side.

The Possible= the tobacco and alcohol industry would have to gain control of it for it to become legalized.

The most plausible Solution= we continue to push for medical shops and allow the med shop owners to fill there pockets with enough money to were there influence matters in our government and they can run with the big dog billionaire tobacco and alcohol industry.

How i see it= pot smokers need to stand up in a single unite, march to the steps of the capitol and demand for the legalization of marijuana. as long as we live in fear and grow in stealth they are always winning. Its time we stand up as one and show the world that were not just a bunch of Doritos eating couch potatoes, but human beings just like them.

 

[jaysplifferton]

Woah. I didn't think I did. that isn't something I would do man... I'll send some positive your way just for posterity. SRY, if that was the case, it was definitely an F-up. This is a good thread; I wouldn't post if I didn't think it was interesting.

Iron man is awesome, I love it when they say "tony stark."

 

[Justa6655321]

If it was legal guys like me would lose their houses. LOL

I'm all for legalization 100%

What would happen though is people like us - the people of this forum would be lost - Big corporations would jump in and make big money! Billions of dollars!!!

You dont see too many brew shops around becasue people dont need to spend the money when they have unlimited choices at the local bar or store.

yeah sure, its super cheap to plant a few seeds in your backyard like tomatoes but how many people live on the tomatoes they grow. There is a billion dollar tomatoe business owned by big corps rigth now.

My point being i think it would be great to legalize but...the people that profit will be the wrong people. The Chinese will mass produce this just like everything else and it will be less than a dollar for the best pot...

Tell me is that good or bad?

 

[blakhash]

If it was legal guys like me would lose their houses. LOL

I'm all for legalization 100%

What would happen though is people like us - the people of this forum would be lost - Big corporations would jump in and make big money! Billions of dollars!!!

You dont see too many brew shops around becasue people dont need to spend the money when they have unlimited choices at the local bar or store.

yeah sure, its super cheap to plant a few seeds in your backyard like tomatoes but how many people live on the tomatoes they grow. There is a billion dollar tomatoe business owned by big corps rigth now.

My point being i think it would be great to legalize but...the people that profit will be the wrong people. The Chinese will mass produce this just like everything else and it will be less than a dollar for the best pot...

Tell me is that good or bad?

its already happening slowly in California, medical shops have great weed no doubt but there weed is no were close to the quality of weed you could grow yourself. it would become just like the other mass produced products on the market making it less and less desirable.

 

[IE2KS_KUSH]

its already happening slowly in California, medical shops have great weed no doubt but there weed is no were close to the quality of weed you could grow yourself. it would become just like the other mass produced products on the market making it less and less desirable.

I don't know where to start with that, but I will start here.
California is the model of how NOT to do it.
The AG or Congress can have cannabis removed from the schedule of narcotics, which HAS TO HAPPEN FOLKS plain and simple. Regardless of what many apparently believe, the president really only has the influence to appoint an AG or ask congress to act. That's it. Then I believe if we hypothetically thumbed our nose to international treaty, then the world would follow suit. I agree, it should be regulated much like alcohol. People can still brew their own now, it would be very similar, it would really, change, the world.

 

[raygun]

Son of a bitch... I had a huge reply typed up took me forever and then I hit submit and poof some how I was not log in any more... This has happend to me with the new format I get automatically logged out after a certain time frame....
Ok let me see if I can do this again...

.... at what plant count would you separate commercial with registration and all that and personal grow. .....

Ok since this is the revised version it should be more to the point....
We all first have to accept that there is a difference between growing styles.
- If I say that the plant count is limted to 20 flowering plants indoor. Well for me that works and my current set up woud be with in limits. I grow in a cab under a 400W light on a perpetual grow in about 1.5 lt pots with coco and harvest up to 3 plants ever 25-35 days depending on strain and getting any where from 1-3oz total from those harvested plants. I will have anywhere from 9-15 plants in flower at any time. Now take those same plant #'s and put it in a 2000W+ climate controlled room with 5 gal pots and coco and even if on the same perpetual cycle you are going to be able to pull a few OZ per plant if not a QP+ each if you did it right. Now they are still with in the plant #'s but that production is NOT A PERSONAL GROWERS production needs. Lets be honest about what can be produced. So there will have to be some sort of self regulation. Also I'm not going to pay for all the cost of such an extravagant grow room to produce such a volume of product on a monthly basis just for my personal consumption. It's cheeper for me at that point to go to the local canna club and pick up some stanky danky, because running a few thousand watts is not recreational growth production. These people need to get Lic. registered and set up as a business. Pay the man live with in the laws.

- Now for outdoor growers you have the same conundrum. 6 plants for one person could yeild them 2 LB each while his neighbor only gets 2 oz each. Well that neighbor who only got 2oz better learn quickly how to make those gals produce! I honestly don't see a need for more than 8-10 flowering/female plants in an outdoor grow. Even if its for your whole year supply you had best learn to make those product some serious herb or suppliment with an indoor grow for part of the year. 8-10 plants in the right hands outside will yeild some serious bud. If you don't have to hide it you should be abel to grow the sh!t out of them.

- As for vegging plants I don't think that there should be a limit. They are not currently producing anything and as long as in veg will never produce a product. I think that if you want to save some "vintages" just like wine you should not be limited. Also if you were growing from seed we all know its 50/50 for male/female typically so I don't think that males should count in the flowering plant count either.

- Clones would fall under this catagory and thus you could have lic registered clone services and their #'s would be limited only by the lic they have.

- Dry and Processed material limits I am not in favor of because some people will grow outdoor for the whole years supply and others won't.

.... I feel that since mj has been illegial for sooo long that if this were to be the way, then those who had personal gardens and say grew 20 plants perpetual and had alot of left over mj, then just human nature to sell some of the excess and have alittle extra spending money non taxed. Thats where the Feds would step in and apply old law maybe since no taxes or inspections for public safety control was done.....

This is basically what would need to happen. In reality if I brewed some beer and it was a request my friends asked me to do and said they would pay for all the supplies and give me $100 for labor is the ABC going to come in and arrest me? NO they are never going to find out because my friends would never say nor would any of them even think about it being illegal....
Or reverse it and I just brewed more beer/meed/wine than I could drink and my friends offered to remove some of my excess and pay me for it would the IRS come in and take away my everything?
Now if I did this on a regular and people new I would brew them beer for a small fee and I started to get customers on the regular then perhaps I would have a problem as I am now selling alcohol to the public with out a lic. I'm sure there is a loophole like if I gave them a starter and said ok its ready to ferment just keep it at X temp for Y days and then filter and bottle. I never sold them alcohol because it was not yet produced.

Same would apply here. A friend or some one would have to snitch on me for anyone to find out I was hooking friends up if I had more than I needed. It's not like I'm running a busienss with custmers in and out daily. These are my friends who I cook dinner for and with and plan camping trips and outing with. People who, when or if shitty drunk will take care of you. Now lets say for some off reason they caught you red handed this one time it would be a fine if they caught you with a record of selling illegaly or staked you out and saw you were moving product you would be brought up on "tax evasion, distribution w/o lic" and who knows what else they would thow at you.


The rest of your post gets the groove I am trying to move here. Now lets see if I can post this and get on to J's comment and the others....

 

[raygun]

If pot were legalized, then people would probably try it who never would otherwise, and likely a large amount of these people would find it pleasurable or at least see that it's not as bad as it is in the commercials. The problem is, FOR pot to be legal, these people would have to already know that, which is realistically not going to happen. It's like a catch 22.....
Problem is, the people who were worried about their rep are still worried about their rep, and without ever trying it they've dismissed it based on what they've heard and the fact that it's illegal. Granted, it's not right for everybody, but to at least understand the basics isn't that hard. How do we educate the stubborn, when they won't even listen to the arguments regarding the pragmatism of locking up so many people for a non-violent crime? when they think that cancer patients are just trying to get high? when the black market funds terrorism, and they use that as an argument FOR criminalization?....

These are good points however I disagree that for Cannabis to be legalized everyone needs to accept is as harmless just a majority of us. There will always be small minded people. Shoot look at the KKK or Neo-Nazis just plain ignorant. You will be hard pressed to change those hard core extremists views.
This is where you only need to get the majority and that is just one person over 50%. MADD will always be here, TRUTH will always be here those organizations will always be around and I'm sure that some PO'd soccer mom with nothing better to do will come up with some save the children campaign and organization.

I have to believe that the majority of America is not that ignorant. Especially now that the 60's and 70's population is becoming the power players and the old crows are dying off. With younger politicians and people in power we will become a more progressive society.

I don't think it's to little to late that attitude gets us no where its never to late to make a change or to little of a change as long as its forwards.

If we keep it in the public eye and keep it legit in there eye they will start to forget about the propaganda fed to them since the 20's...

That's a long time of brainwashing to unravel and its needs to start some where with something.

Hitlers propagandist said "A lie told often enough, often becomes the truth"
This is what has happened in America with cannabis prohibition.


Thakns for your contribution and the K+:friends:

 

[raygun]

Im keeping an open mind here. I love were ya going with it tho.

The Bad= The tobacco and alcohol industry make so much freggin money its going to be hard to get them on Mary Janes side.....

They don't have to. MJ legalizatoin and taxation will bring it to the same bargening table with the amount of $$$ that could be made. Its all about the fraklinsense or in this case the franklinsensi

....The Possible= the tobacco and alcohol industry would have to gain control of it for it to become legalized.....

I don't want it to be corporatized on that level. Who wants camel brand cannabis. Plus I don't think they could produce the quality required by the market on such a huge scale unless they wanted to supply the mexi and beaster crowd.
I think it will have to be done on a local level. I think the market would support this much better and I think that safe guards should be put in to place to avoid the large scale production of cannabis for uses other than industrial (hemp-oil,paper,fabric, rope, ect). Production for personal consumtion should only be allowed on a local level and with in whatever limits are set forth by those local governments. At this point you are only talking about final production and plant #'s mean nothing. So you would be lic to product X#'s of cannabis to sell for personal consumption per month. A set up similar to the fisheries as for there harvest quotas. The industry states they will allow X# or fish or crab to be harvested from the seas in any year and each boat/company is allocated a % of that. Commercial produciton would be handeled as such but by the local Cannabis Control Board or such.

....The most plausible Solution= we continue to push for medical shops and allow the med shop owners to fill there pockets with enough money to were there influence matters in our government and they can run with the big dog billionaire tobacco and alcohol industry......

This is one way but why keep it limited to medical use only. It is a wonder herb one that can be used for medicial uses and recreation. It is a bigger and more powerful organiazation finacially pushing for legalization rather than medical use only. I think that this will possibly lead in to legalization but why not just legalize and regulate eliminating a large portoin of the black market. The black market will never go away for anything. Or worse the pharm co's get controll of medical cannabis production and are the only ones who can supply cannabis to the medical community...

....How i see it= pot smokers need to stand up in a single unite, march to the steps of the capitol and demand for the legalization of marijuana. as long as we live in fear and grow in stealth they are always winning. Its time we stand up as one and show the world that were not just a bunch of Doritos eating couch potatoes, but human beings just like them.

You got it!

 

[IE2KS_KUSH]

You are right raygun.
If you legislate special "MMJ" laws, then you are in fact discriminating against those that would use it otherwise. It is morally wrong.

 

[Clackamas Coot]

F*ck legalization. Let's try allowing MMJ states to implement their laws as they were passed by the voters.

And then let's discuss reducing MMJ from the Schedule 1 paradigm, i.e. allowing states which have passed MMJ laws be allowed to implement their specific state laws.

That seems to me to be far more important than any cry for legalization.

HTH

CC