Living organic soil from start through recycling

[rrog]

Regarding Kelp meal, just look for the powdered kelp or seaweed that isn't made by Maxicrop? I don't need 50 lbs. Kelp Meal

 

[ClackamasCootz]

rrog

My bad - I failed to consider that there are companies re-packing the Acadian Seaplants' material under their labels - that's how the fertilizer industry works. That's kelp meal under Epsoma's label.

Down-To-Earth also has a box with their label and I believe Dr. Earth and I'm sure others that distribute in specific geographical areas. For example, Epsoma is a fairly new arrival to the PNW but I'd seen the name pop up for several years. The brand name on a bag of any fertilizer sold at the retail level is meaningless - they all source from 2 major brokers and almost no one packs their own. It's all out-sourced to a handful of companies which has been the industry standard going back to the 1920's, i.e. it's not a new business model.

As long as the label reads "Kelp Meal" then you have the correct product. The other identifier is Ascophyllum nodosum which is the Botanical name for the species of kelp harvested and processed by Maxicrop & Acadian Seaplants.

Maxicrop packs straight kelp meal and is available but it comes at a higher price over Acadian Seaplants due to transportation charges getting it to the East Coast from Norway. Both companies harvest the same species from the North Atlantic - Maxicrop built their plant in Norway 62 years ago and Acadian Seaplants began operations in 1981.

The Seaweed Site - the most comprehensive web site I could find on marine algae: species, comparing differences between brown, green and red seaweeds, etc.

 

[rrog]

I've been using this Algamin Kelp Meal

Thanks so much for all this excellent info!

 

[ClackamasCootz]

rrog

Yep - repacker: Algamin Kelp Meal Fertilizer is a Norwegian Kelp

As long as you can live with the per pound price! LOL

Around these here parts (Southern Oregon CC coming out) kelp meal is sold in bulk at several retail nurseries and they stab their customers just as hard so that's the market pricing - just not my market pricing I want to pay is probably pretty accurate.

I'm cheap......

CC

 

[rrog]

I like cheap...

Back to the hard water issue, this seems to be a big issue for those with hard water and recycling soil. Could make an otherwise great recycling program a bust

 

[ClackamasCootz]

rrog

I have an email I'm waiting on from a 'water guy' that works for the Oregon Association of Nurseries. He's the only one I know of that works in and around the horticulture industry up and down the I-5 Corridor.

I have a question for you though - how are the plants in your front or back yards doing overall? If you have a vegetable garden that would be a good indicator perhaps.

Any issues? How extensive of a filtering system do you have to run inside the home for drinking water?

CC

 

[rrog]

CC, no irrigation outside, so no indicator there, I'm afraid. I have the plants inside being fed from the straight well water, through a BluMat pressure reducer. Works great, but can't be modified. I'm also moving soon, so only so many grows left at the old house.

The new house also will use well water, so my query is still germane.

For drinking, I use a softener. I also have an RO that I used to add back CalMag to. I like the BluMats a lot, and don't want a reservoir.

So if the Ca+ and Mg+ from my well water is bio-available and building levels in soil, I'm looking into adjusting the initial Ca+ soil levels to buy me more Ca+ headroom.

I had thoughts at one point of connecting the RO system with a water pressure pump and then then the BM pressure reducer, but not sure watering with RO exclusively is a good idea, either.

 

[SeaMaiden]

rrog

My bad - I failed to consider that there are companies re-packing the Acadian Seaplants' material under their labels - that's how the fertilizer industry works. That's kelp meal under Epsoma's label.

Down-To-Earth also has a box with their label and I believe Dr. Earth and I'm sure others that distribute in specific geographical areas. For example, Epsoma is a fairly new arrival to the PNW but I'd seen the name pop up for several years. The brand name on a bag of any fertilizer sold at the retail level is meaningless - they all source from 2 major brokers and almost no one packs their own. It's all out-sourced to a handful of companies which has been the industry standard going back to the 1920's, i.e. it's not a new business model.

As long as the label reads "Kelp Meal" then you have the correct product. The other identifier is Ascophyllum nodosum which is the Botanical name for the species of kelp harvested and processed by Maxicrop & Acadian Seaplants.

Maxicrop packs straight kelp meal and is available but it comes at a higher price over Acadian Seaplants due to transportation charges getting it to the East Coast from Norway. Both companies harvest the same species from the North Atlantic - Maxicrop built their plant in Norway 62 years ago and Acadian Seaplants began operations in 1981.

The Seaweed Site - the most comprehensive web site I could find on marine algae: species, comparing differences between brown, green and red seaweeds, etc.

Hmm... more information than http://www.algaebase.org ...?

You know what macroalgae they should be using? Caulerpa taxifolia. I used to use it as a refugium species in my systems, FANTASTIC for taking up and locking nutrients out of the water column. It's also highly invasive and few marine critters eat it, or even want much of anything to do with it. It's just so incredibly easy to grow in the home, but is now illegal here in California, and for good reason (in my opinion, considering what idiots people can be when it comes to releasing non-natives).

In fact, there are many Caulerpa species that might show some usefulness. I mean, yeah, California giant kelp grows quickly, but so do the Caulerpa species, and in more environments where it isn't wanted.

Monaco! Are you listening?

Thanks Coot. I wonder, then, about the Epsom Salt (Magnesium Sulfate), as it's immediately available also.

My fear assumes that the Ca+ and Mg+ in my water is available for the plant / microbes and not locked in some very stable (less available) form.

SeaMaiden, You would suggest having the water tested or test it myself, to determine the type of Ca+ and Mg+ I have? If they are carbonates, does your instinct tell you they are locked up as potential Cations and I wouldn't have to be as concerned?

One or the other, having it tested is more expensive, but also more extensive and likely more accurate. You're likely going to get a sum total of carbonates, and that is exactly what you'll get if you test it yourself (unless you go all fancy and start using Salifert or La Motte tests for EVERYTHING), instead of actual parameters of each form of carbonate. Make sense?

As for whether they're locked up, that would be my practical experience, yes. Whether it's trying to get Ca into photosynthetic hermatypics or into my tomatoes, if it's only form is CaCO3, nobody gets enough and it needs supplementation.

 

[ClackamasCootz]

rrog

I'm supposed to ask you if the water softener chemical you're using is Potassium Chloride

Let me know......

BTW - are you growing coral or maintaining a reef system in your home?

 

[Greenheart]

I'm not sure where the term cook came from either honestly - compost is the correct term for certain...


dank.Frank

If I were to hazard a guess it would be from the heat created in a large compost pile. A person can actually preheat the water coming into the hot water tank as well as create a methane vapor for a fuel source all with composting.

 

[MrSterling]

I really want to know how well-fed fertilizer company bosses are - how much of price is profit margins and how much of it can we just toss up to business expenses?

 

[ClackamasCootz]

I really want to know how well-fed fertilizer company bosses are - how much of price is profit margins and how much of it can we just toss up to business expenses?

Here's a small example - Oyster Shell Powder (aka Flour) comes from a single source, the floor of the San Francisco Bay. This mined material is from ancient sea deposits of a small oyster about the size of your small fingernail.

Totes (1 c.y. or 27 c.f.) run about $100.00 for singles and down to $70,00 for a truckload (per tote). Fair enough.

When you buy it bagged at a farm store the price is around $12.00 for 50# bag. Fair enough redux.

By the time you buy it in a box from Down-To-Earth the price for 6 lbs. is $10.95 MSRP

So we went from $.04 per lb. (tote price) to $1.30 per lb. (DTE box price).

And then there's the eBay sellers - who knows what they're charging.

Then factor in what the price per lb. is when you look at Calcium supplements for you and your family. Which is nothing to compare with the price once it's put into a bottle for the pet supplement industry.

Yeah - big money indeed and that's just an example on a dirt cheap commodity

CC

 

[rrog]

As for whether they're locked up, that would be my practical experience, yes. Whether it's trying to get Ca into photosynthetic hermatypics or into my tomatoes, if it's only form is CaCO3, nobody gets enough and it needs supplementation.

That's the key right there. It's certainly worth getting the well water tested in the new house. I'll look around and see if CaCO3 is disassembled in soil somehow. If not, then I'm not building up Ca+, assuming my water Ca+ is CaCO3. Thanks much for the feedback.

rrog

I'm supposed to ask you if the water softener chemical you're using is Potassium Chloride

Let me know......

BTW - are you growing coral or maintaining a reef system in your home?

CC, again, thanks for your efforts. I use a NaCL based softening salt, so the resulting softened water has reduced Ca+, Mg+ and Fe+, while elevated Na+. The KCl you mentioned is $$, but if the resulting softened water with elevated K+ instead on Na+ would prove safe for the plants, it might be worth it.

IF I have CaCO3 as a Ca+ source in native well water, and IF CaCO3 is indeed locked up, then I'd continue to use the well water

 

[SeaMaiden]

Rrog, I want to clarify that, while I am also on a well, and while I know the basic parameters with specific regard to both general and carbonate hardness, I do not know the exact parameters; i.e. how much of what is in the water. It stains our porcelain orange, so I would guess that means I have at least a little Fe in there. I've tested general and carbonate hardness levels myself, but not with kits that are element or mineral-specific.

 

[ClackamasCootz]

Most carbonates (including Calcium Carbonate) are not water soluble - basic chemistry and the Laws of Solubility.....

Just trying to bring this back around to science and such

 

[rrog]

More good news, then. So some of the concerns about hard water seem invalid in some cases. Unless carbonates behave differently in soil than in straight water

 

[DARC MIND]

Most carbonates (including Calcium Carbonate) are not water soluble - basic chemistry and the Laws of Solubility.....

Just trying to bring this back around to science and such

but arnt humic substances capable of taking out some of the cal and mag ions that would make water "hard"?

peat has a softening effect in water?

 

[ClackamasCootz]

rrog

Calcium Carbonate (CaCO3) for example, is deconstructed when it comes in to contact with Sulphuric acid thereby releasing the Ca++ from the Carbon and Oxygen ions.

Soils low in Sulphur will often suffer from 'Calcium' lockout and a good example of that in the gardening world is Coir. Coir is almost completely free from elemental Sulfur meaning that Calcium++ is not available from Limestone, Calcite Lime, Oyster shell powder, etc.

Ever see any threads on Coir boards about Calcium lockout? LOL

Think that they would ever dig deep enough into soil science to figure out that adding more elemental Calcium locked in a double-ring with Magnesium Carbonate (Dolomite Lime) is a fool's errand?

CC

 

[YosemiteSam]

If the water hardness is CaCO3 you can make it available in water by acidifying the water. For example if you use nitric acid the reaction would be:

CaCO3 + 2HNO3 = Ca(NO3)2 + H2O + CO2

by the time you lower the pH to 4.5 it all would become available. So if you don't want that free Ca leave your water pH above 7

sorry about that...can't help myself sometimes

 

[ClackamasCootz]

but arnt humic substances capable of taking out some of the cal and mag ions that would make water "hard"?

peat has a softening effect in water?

Humic substances and clay will hold Calcium++ ions where they can be exchanged with other cations for uptake by the roots.

That's how humic substances and clay play the role that they do in maintaining the pH (too many free Hydrogen ions without a home to land at)

CC