Dolomite + Fulvic as Cal-Mag?

[Guest]

My tapwater is garbage and I have a crazy theory that using RO under LEDs depletes calcium and magnesium faster than the roots can expand and reach more. Can I mix Dolomite lime in my irrigation water and use fulvic acid to make it more available? If so, should I do the math and follow hydro guidelines for quantities? I could of course use garden lime and Epsoms if the cal/mag ratio needs adjusted. I'm guessing there's a catch, but can't think what it would be. The Google seems to think organic friendly Calmag only comes in the form of dissolves bones/eggshells.

My "theory" is in reference to seedlings/seedling mixes, in my case the Buildasoil "Coots mix" cut to 1/3 amendments. The problem seems to correct in full strength "Coots" as microbial colonies and roots establish, but I'm having a heck of a time getting healthy plants through the solo cup stage.


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[40degsouth]

Hey, great thread and something l researched extensively at one stage after reading about Tom Hill using cal/mag once a month as a foliar. We couldn’t get it here at the time so l thought, like you, l could make my own but alas one cancels the other out in solution. I can’t remember the exact chemistry behind it because that was beers ‘n beers ago but from memory, they attach and flocculate out of solution and become plant unavailable; l can’t for the life of me think of why because they’re both positively charged particles. I’m not sure what effect RO water would have on the solution maybe a lot but l do remember the process of producing the actual cal/mag product, was patented and difficult to keep both particles separate whilst in solution.
In Korean Natural Farming treated eggshells are used for calcium and processed bones are used for (calcium) phosphate. I’m not sure where the magnesium comes in, I’d like to learn though.
Cheers,
40.

 

[kushumpeng]

Isn’t rainwater pretty much the same as RO water? As long as the elements are in the medium is should be available to the plants with the proper ph.

 

[flylowgethigh]

Epsom salts and cal-mag have really helped my plants in soil. I use filtered tap water with a Ph of 7.6, that I am now dropping to 6,5 with PH down. Add some cal-mag, and the leafs have good color. I am under LED lights, and some folks are saying th LEDs make the plants need more cal or mag. All I know is it is working better.

RO water has no bacteria, and the BAS people say to not use it in living soil. But they also say Ph doesn't matter, and I think it does. Rain water has some H2O2 in it. I am not sure why we aren't adding a little H2O2 to our water, but you never hear of it.

 

[Guest]

In Korean Natural Farming treated eggshells are used for calcium and processed bones are used for (calcium) phosphate. I’m not sure where the magnesium comes in, I’d like to learn though.
Cheers,
40.

Im completely confused about all of this. If you can dissolve eggshells and bones with vinegar, why can't you dissolve lime (ancient powdered shells and bones) with a weak acid? If magnesium doesn't play well, and needs to be in the soil and in the soil only, doesn't watering with calcium introduce them to each other any way? How would they even know if their in wet water or wet dirt?


So many people say "stop over thinking" which is code word for various things, "let the microbes do the work"... Well what are these magical microbes doing anyways, because mine suck, obviously. Pretty sure they are producing acids to break down the bone meal, oyster shell, etc in the soil. The same acids we can provide to save them the trouble.. This stuff is so horribly explained to us common folk, and there's so much conflicting information and misdirection it's ridiculous.

 

[Guest]

RO water has no bacteria, and the BAS people say to not use it in living soil. But they also say Ph doesn't matter, and I think it does. Rain water has some H2O2 in it. I am not sure why we aren't adding a little H2O2 to our water, but you never hear of it.

My problem with regular Calmag is the chemical nitrate. Part of the reason I have an EO system, my city's water comes with free chemical fertilizer.

I don't know what info to trust. I definitely don't trust buildasoil. Their idea of customer service is to claim everyone's problems don't exist. Magnesium deficiency doesn't exist, ph isn't importantly, yada yada yada.. I read an old pinned thread here on ICMag saying to foliar Dolomite at 1 teaspoon per quart. I know that is bad info, but for shits and giggles I put one teaspoon of dolomite per quart. It raised ppm by 14...

​​​​​​​ I then drained out some of the settled chalk and replaced its volume with acetic acid. I gets carbon bubbles and rising ppm every time I shake the jug. That was an hour ago, the ppm is now up to 515ppm. Can anyone explain to me what I've made?

 

[Guest]

Isn’t rainwater pretty much the same as RO water? As long as the elements are in the medium is should be available to the plants with the proper ph.

I tried upping the amendments and had lockout issues right off the bat, but plenty of calcium and magnesium! I have spent a few days trying to find what a soil mix for seedlings looks like and have turned up nothing different than what I've done (cut my full strength mix) , looks like everyone is growing from teen cuttings but me lol. My seedlings definitely need something extra,but not the whole buffet. I'm going to have to make a seedling mix with gypsum (calcium sulfates) and Epsoms (magnesium sulfate) added if I can't figure out how to get it in the water. Is there such thing as Sulphur toxicity? There's plenty in the peat moss as is..

 

[flylowgethigh]

Do you have a soil Ph meter that works OK? See what the Ph is when the soil is pretty moist/wet. See my Ph thread in organic soil for why.

I think my problem with tailed seeds not popping in the soil may be critters eating the seed head. Who knows?

 

[40degsouth]

Hi everyone,
Butt, l know exactly how you feel, l spent quite a few grows chasing deficiencies that were lock outs due to an over abundance of certain elements, particularly salts. Anything with a sulphate has attached sulphur and have the ability to lower ph, sulphate of ammonia, sulphate of potash, magnesium sulphate etc, etc. What l really didn’t understand was that plants out of the same seed batch, can have different ways of feeding and have totally different needs from their brothers and sisters. In my opinion the perfect soil runs at a ph of 6.5 but will also run really well at 7- 7.5. All elements are available at 6.5.
Dolomite contains calcium and magnesium and is a lime that has the ability to raise ph and hydrated lime, or builders lime, raises ph rapidly and contains calcium.
Gypsum contains calcium and sulphur and although it’s a lime, it has the potential to lower ph because of the sulphur. It also has the added ability to grab hold of excess salts in a mix and take them out of your soil. It is possible to have sulphur toxicity and deficiency, same as magnesium. The plant really needs it though and helps it fight fungal infection and heaps of other stuff; every element is important for plant health and to get them in balance can be tricky.
I think what’s happening when trying to make a cal/mag solution is that they turn themselves into dolomite. The plant doesn’t need a lot of magnesium and to put more in can lock out calcium and vice versa. Quite honestly, l rarely add salts unless there is a deficiency and l know it’s a deficiency because l haven’t added to much of anything else.
With foliar sprays the particles that enter the leaf have to be really small and calcium and calcite are two different things.
The road down organics isn’t an easy one to wrap your head around when you’re trying to understand the science behind it and how things work but once you believe and understand, it’s the microbes and fungi in the soil that break down the nutrients and make them plant available then your starting to get it.
Depending on your volume of soil a healthy lot of worms will be your best friends and once you learn a few inputs for different elements npk, sillica, calcium your there.
If you’re really interested Microbeman started one of my favourite threads “Local Materials” it’s worth a read and one of the most comprehensive guides to what to compost, how to compost, brewing microbes and basically how to grow a better product for less money. It would be well worth asking some questions over there and see if you can put a spark back in it.
And hey, just to really mess with your head, if you can get the ph without being to radical, the plant has an ability to, not only adjust the ph around its roots but to also manipulate the nutrients available to it, by changing the exudates it excretes and changing the balance of microbes, feeding on certain nutrients around them.
Under the very definition of intelligence, which has been redefined, the plant itself has an intelligence simply because it has the ability to survive within and manipulate its environment.
How exciting’s that, it’s only just beginning to be understood and a whole new universe to explore.
Hope that might help you a bit,
40.

 

[Guest]

Do you have a soil Ph meter that works OK? See what the Ph is when the soil is pretty moist/wet. See my Ph thread in organic soil for why.

I think my problem with tailed seeds not popping in the soil may be critters eating the seed head. Who knows?

I have every ph meter imaginable! I've done so much poking and prodding trying to get a grasp on why my young plants are so picky in containers when it was pretty much set it and forget it outdoors. The current trial grow is running at 7ph, a little higher than aimed for, but like 40degsouth said the rhizosphere should self adjust and seems to, just not fast enough.

I don't know what condition my microbes are in, I assume if the soil tub gets hot after amending, all is well, but then you see speciality products like Mammoth P. Maybe I don't have sufficient "oyster shell solubilizing microbes". I've bought a couple different brands of microbes to try out, once I narrow a few other things down. It's already a science fair project short one poster board, might as well keep all the controls and variables seperate.


​​​​​​40degsouth, this is one of those things for me where the less I knew the better I did, because I didn't have to know any of the details.. Recreating nature is quite the balancing act. I'm now growing the same quality of herb, not better, but in laughable quantities and much uglier plants. If the dispensaries in my area sold anything worth smiling about I'd probably give up, but that stuffed comes in one flavor only and it sure ain't weed flavor.

​​​​​When building my soil I know the discussions on "coots mix" stressed that you need quality compost, or quality worm castings. Of course instead of blindly following what Buildasoil was selling (both in their grow commandments and retail products) I asked why, just tell me what species of microbes I need and I'll source/brew them myself. No answer? Well then I'm using whatever junk compost is locally avaliable! I really don't have the material to compost, I'd have to start growing my own vegetables, catching my own fish, but worms on the other hand I might be able to do. Maybe for now I'll break down and ship some bags from Buildasoil, I'm not doubting there's a quality difference. I've read stories of entire multi acre plots being ruined by bad compost. They've even got a complete kit I'm tempted to buy, because even the last bag of peat I bought locally didn't smell right. I used to scrape composted forest leaves off the mountainside and never had to worry about funny smelling batches. Maybe I'll pay a relative back home to send me some!

Where it stands right now I have to start seedlings in #1 pots as they won't make it in anything smaller: soil too fertile and they lock out, soil too weak and deficiency takes them, so they need lots of weak soil to explore, and they have trouble doing that when they're young for some reason.. partially because they have no assistance from the arbuscular fungi. I've read it can take months for a network to establish in a container. And partially because my roots simple don't grow well.

Which reminds me, there's not alot of phosphorus in "Coots mix" and that's a key root booster in commercial ag. Now I'm convinced I need more calcium, magnesium AND Phosphorus... Bone meal and a good microbial inoculation in order? It feels weird to add amendments on such young, small plants, but then again I see people using 20 gallon pots for half lb plants, maybe I need to get out of my old school mindset of giant outdoor plants with free range roots that don't need fertilizer for months. It's he mindset that brings me back to my original question, how to get calcium into water soluble form, why microbes and hydroponic producers can do it yet the average Joe can't. And my new question, HOW DOES CLACKAMAS COOT OR ANY OTHER WATER-ONLY GROWERS START SEEDLINGS?

I actually bought some "organic" Cal-Mag for my irrigation. The recommended dose only adds 20-30ppm.. "Wear gloves, do not over apply"? What is this stuff?! The label claims organic acids, namely fulvic, and magnesium calcium carbonate, aka Dolomite lime! Best guess is they sold me burnt lime, a hydroxide, which is not approved for organic production, and is definitely not microbe-friendly.. Of course 2ml per gallon is pretty dilute, but something tells me that ain't gonna cut it!

 

[flylowgethigh]

The cal-mag I am using is from Botnicare and is also got iron (cal-mag plus). It has helped my leafs get a consistant color and the plants show more vigor (from dead and lethargic).

I asked about PH, because this is going on in my soil. I just checked 4 plants in theother tent, and the Ph is not "sparking" like the plants in the tent shown here, yet:

https://www.icmag.com/forum/marijua...il-ph-changing-during-a-run-real-mystery-here

I had top watered the ones not showing the low Ph with a tea today, so the soil is nice and moist. I just re-inoculated them, and added some cal-mag and Ph down. We'll see if they start up. BTW, this is just a stoner observation from a guy who understands nothing about plants and how they work, on my first run.

The second run has bugs eating my tailed seeds when I put them in soil. Nematodes in there now.

 

[40degsouth]

In my opinion, foliar feedings are the quickest way to correct a deficiency. Have a look at the “How To......” youtube videos that Chris does regarding Korean Natural Farming, l find it really interesting. He demonstrates how to make plant available phosphate out of chared bone. People’s urine holds large amounts of plant available phosphate because our kidneys filter most of our ingested phosphorus out; this can be mixed with water at a rate of, between, 25-50/1, depending on the stage of growth. Seeds also contain phosphates because they need large amounts to develop properly. Of course there’s also soft rock phosphates and bat guanos that probably contain the most amounts but may not have been ethically sourced due to a global shortage.
As a side note there’s also growing research alluding to a correlation between a radium isotope attached to the phosphate ion, leading to cancers.
Obviously it’s not over or under watering effecting your seedlings so you need to come up with a seed raising mix that will take them to the point of transplant.
In my experience seedlings really don’t need a lot of nutrition, or water and perhaps you could make your own seed raising mix with water crystals, perlite and/or propagating sand and some of your pete moss. Then in a container mix in a quarter teaspoon of trace minerals, a teaspoon or two of liquid seaweed and a tablespoon or less of fish hydrolyslate, in a litre of water and submerge the pots until they are fully hydrated and don’t water them again until transplant, or point of wilt.
Im pretty sure calcium needs a slightly acidic soil to ionise/release due to the h+ ions; however thanks microbes and root exudates.
Clays, in general, contain calcium and magnesium and large amounts of sillica, in the sediment, clay particles negative, calcium, magnesium positive, they stick together. Dig it up, mix it up in a bucket with water and pour the , white coffee looking mixture on.
40

 

[kushumpeng]

Are you letting the little girls dry between watering in the solo cups? You might be overwatering them. Also I find sul po mag a very good source of magnesium, sulphur and potassium with out changing soil ph to much and without adding more calcium. However good quality worm castings and compost should have all the required micro, macro, and trace elements needed buy the plants. They really don’t need that much and if you run into problems top dressing with a bit of worm castings should solve 80-90% of the deficiencies. Less is more with organics a lot of times especially when using compost in potted plants indoors.
hope that helps.

 

[flylowgethigh]

Why the heck would you want to dry out the soil and kill off all the sparking and natural goodness that's going on in that electrolyte? The biggest lesson I have learned is don't let the soil get dry. Next lesson was dealing with wet soil bugs. Read something somewhere about guys using citric acid to blast the system with H+ ions, pull the Ca+ and Mg+ off the (negative charge carrier), so the process can be rebalanced again. I have been using Ph down, with whatever comes with that for side-effects.