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Cheap Nutrient Line for Commercial and Home Grows?

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  • BillFarthing
    replied
    The point of this thread is to grow fire without a huge budget or tons of additives.

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  • aikaramba
    replied
    Triacontanol can help with plant vigor but does not increase terpenes. 0,1 ppm is a suitable dosage, but keep in mind you have to dissolve it in tween20.
    I prefer a kelp/fulvic foliar once a week (50ppm kelp, 200ppm fulvic) as a plant boost, but if you're after Tria, try Vitazyme which is also gave me very good results.

    Terpenes can be increased by everything provoking a SAR but you have to be careful to not impact yield. I found chitosan to be effective without any noticable yield decrease at 125 ppm. Since SAR is more or less an immune reaction of the plant, each strain has different terpenes/secondary metabolites it uses to defend itself. This means SAR does not uniformely increase terpenes but those the plants uses for defense. This can alter the original terpene profile which might be good for some strains but not for others. Another basic thing you can do is increase sulfur. Especially for Sour/OG/Chem strains this helps with the stank and I've come to believe that much of the "funk" we all crave rom these strains is not from terpenes but rather thiols/sulfur compunds which have super intense odors at incredibly tiny concrentations

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  • maryjaneismyfre
    replied
    So you gotta ask yourself what terpenes you after and start from there...which genetics' rank stanking parents, are known for those terps, and work your way from there while germinating as much shit known to be of marketable form and super terpy from those or similar lines....and back to nutes LOL..

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  • maryjaneismyfre
    replied
    Triacontanol will not increase your terpenes if something in your grow was lacking where your terps were not to potential, it may increase resin and production but if timed wrong it will generate the wrong type of growth meaning more mass of popcorn bud or too much leaf, it definitely can make shit go turbo if all other factors are being met..if you want terpenes you need to work on your environment and a proper organic soil with right amount of pigshit will give you the best terps, with added sugars, microbes, AAC teas and also balanced salts with micronutes to makes sure no base left untouched..then you will get premium terps...to the best potential of your genetic.

    Which is the limiting factor and crux always...the terps of my 80's skunk, grown shit, in salts, in hot room, with underwatering, with a quick dry and no cure and no flush even, will still shit on the terps you'll get from 999 seeds you germinate out of 1000 from seed packs, grown the best way in living soil with lots of sulfur and lots of love and perfect dry and cure etc. Though grown properly you'll have to look through thousands of plants to find one that has that all pervasive penetrating lingering stench of that skunk..it all comes down to genetics in the end, but it is all part of a pie graph of things that when met, make up top shelf..we been smoking topshelf before there was even a term for it..LOL I smoke hash, or oil mostly...if I smoke flower its either top shelf or some whispy leafy old sticky skunky hazey thing that blows my taste buds and mind into outer space...or my skunk..which was found out hundreds of sisters/girls long time ago, so nothing much has changed.

    I grow with salts, as I grow on a large commercial scale and the practicality of organic on a commercial scale even much smaller than this just becomes impossible or a major PITA, though I use organic inputs like amino acids and fulvic acid, we don't purchase in bottles by any brand but in IBC flowbins that the brands are just rebottling up and selling to you guys, and the organic inputs do help terps 100% but a balanced diet with lots of sulfur and the right environment and and and make a big difference and no one ever complained that my weed isn't terpy enough..infact when I was underground, my weed always got a premium and it was always top shelf and it was grown in indoor hydro, or outdoor organic 1000L raised beds, or greenhouse with salts and organic or sugars etc..no one at retail ever noticed the difference (and I always got my price I asked on wholesale irrespective of how I grew it, I'd tell guys how it was grown to be honest to them and theyd be like yeah whatever, we dont care, how much you got i'll take it all), end consumers just knew the product from the terps, wouldn't care as well how it was grown..open the bag and you'd know my skunk..open the bag a week after it was empty and you'd still know my skunk..but that would be genetics then..and growing it well, either which way. Many ways to skin the cat (or skunk), but always comes down to the genetics..

    I grew hundreds of tester plants this year and the most of the most terpy came from old sams beans from the bou and old chimera beans with old blueberry and old haze lines in there, things like lemon cello, GFxBB, old skunk and haze x's, simply irresistable simply shat on most of the competition of modern pretenders in terms of terps...but most would not have a form that today would be considered marketable..but most of the modern stuff had terps that in the old days would not be considered marketable, or when they did they had a form that yielded for shit..so.... somewhere in the middle is where its at, and it aint found in a bottle .. its a whole bigger picture..
    Last edited by maryjaneismyfre; 09-14-2021, 20:58.

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  • RyanR
    replied
    Recalled how so? Majority of products on that list still being sold. You can't have enough terpenes . I see hundreds of examples of product and very few is what I would call 100% AAA Top shelf. Maybe if the terpene content was higher before the cure the end result would be a better product. I've smoked very few products that on exhale the flavor explosion still continues where I have no choice but to say holy crap this shit came out perfect. The market is flooded by boof and product that's just pretty good.


    I agree proper long dry down/ cure is absolutely important but may as well have maximum terpene and tricome production that's what keeps people drooling , paying more, which keeps hype and demand.

    No right or wrong way to skin a cat. Thinking light quality has a bigger impact then I once thought. Super terpenes always fetch the high dollar well here anyway.

    How many days does curing / drying take you?




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  • BillFarthing
    replied
    All those came off of a list of recalled products. LOL.

    Proper drying and curing for terps is better than adding any product. I'm looking to reduce operating costs and products in my garden, not add them. My plants yield great and test high TAC without it. Definitely let me know if you find a good dosage for cannabis, but I don't want to risk lower yields by intentionally throwing plants into SAR.
    Last edited by BillFarthing; 09-14-2021, 18:20.

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  • RyanR
    replied
    How much yield reduction we talking? If the quality boost was enough overall it would almost seem the yield reduction would be nil if the end product was worth more.


    "Advanced nutrients- Bud Candy Organic* was recently found to contain salicylic acid
    Advanced nutrients- Bud Candy> contains salicylic acid
    Advanced nutrients- Bud factor X> contains salicylic acid
    Humboldt county's own- Snowstorm ultra> contains salicylic acid
    Heavy 16- Fire, Fire> contains salicylic acid also contains idole-3-butyric acid.
    Cutting Edge Solutions- Uncle John's Blend> contains salicylic acid
    Mills- C4> contains salicylic acid
    NPK- Stack> contains salicylic acid
    Green Planets- Finish> contains salicylic acid
    Vegamatrix- Boost> contains salicylic acid
    Rambridge- Frost protection plus> contains salicylic acid
    Vital Grow- Thunder Bloom> contains salicylic acid
    Optic Foliar- AT-AK> contains salicylic acid
    SM-90 contains salicylic acid.
    Optic Foliar- Overgro> contains salicylic acid and 3-indoleacetic
    acid."

    Leave a comment:


  • BillFarthing
    replied
    aikaramba It's alkaline extracted meaning you are going to use much more pH down and it isn't going to buffer pH like neutral or acidic formulations. There's also significant Fe and B, with no mention of other minerals. Is it better than Ful-Power? Yup. Is it the ideal fulvic? I couldn't tell you without more documentation.

    RyanR Salicylic acid throws plants into SAR, which may mean more frost but lower yields. Low doses of triacontanol may be beneficial, but overdoing it gives you stringy buds like Dr. Grinspoon. I don't know a beneficial dosage or any commercial cannabis products that use either effectively.

    If you want more terpenes, just dry and cure properly to retain the terps that are there.

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  • RyanR
    replied
    Yo Bill. Thanks for all the good info.

    Whats the consensus on using salicylic acid ( not aspirin)and triancontrol during flower? Have anyone used anything alike with worthwhile results? If not what about jasmonate methyl esters?

    Looking to boost terpenes on the cheap without sacrificing weight. What's everyone's thoughts?


    https://scienceinhydroponics.com/201...droponics.html

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  • aikaramba
    replied
    BillFarthing

    Thanks for all the great info you've been providing in this thread. I'm in Europe and was glad that BioAg started distribution in the EU. I'm using Ful-Power with great success but totally get your reasoning behind shipping water etc. I found a fulvic product available here named Fulvic 25 from PHC. They say it is sourced from dutch ground water but I have not found any ISO/LAMAR data and have not received any answer to my mail yet. From what I see, the pH is a lot higher than the Mr Fulvic/ AGT-50, but AgTonik provides AGT-50 on demand at higher pH as well. On the AGT-50 website it says pure fulvic has a CEC of 1400 mEq, could that be a hint that the Fulvic 25 (94-185 mEq~ 140mEq) is about 1:10 diluted pure fulvic, so10%? It also says 10,2% organic matter.
    I'd be super greatful if yyou could take a look at this and tell me if this is something to work with.

    Datasheet: https://www.phc.eu/wp-content/upload...c-25-ENG-5.pdf

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  • maryjaneismyfre
    replied
    He has always posted mad resined up stuff, so it is genetics and also very strongly, grower skill...and silica helps..I dont know of any benefit for the orthosilicic acid over the potassium silicate as once in water as far as I understand it all splits up into ions and the silica is just as active in one form or the next..As far as I know the aim is to get ppm of silica in the feed solution to 20-50ppm range and the form is less relevant than the silica amount, then value comes into play and the potassium silicate is a lot better value for money..

    Also the cell walls of the trichomes as far as i know are normally comprised of silica which is why weed is a silica whore, and the ash in your screen in anycase contains a fair amount of silica if the weed was nutritionally or genetically limited. More trichomes means more silica in the ash, and more silica (to a point) means more trichomes if every other need is met for the plant.

    I use silica and would not grow without it, more for added PM resistance and the overall improved plant health, if the other needs are met. I also find things that generate an SAR response in the plant can also make a plant squeeze out that bit more resin..But in the end it all comes down to genetics..and the enviroment (ie grower) in that order. You can take a resinous clone and flower it out in crap environment and diet and it will still make more resin than a useless hay clone in the best environment and with the best diet..but they all play a part.

    https://www.usgs.gov/media/images/wa...teraction-salt

    https://www3.epa.gov/pesticides/chem...6_7-Oct-07.pdf

    "2. Environmental Fate Assessment
    When dissolved in water, the active ingredient potassium silicate dissociates into potassium
    cations, hydroxide anions, and mono- and polysilicic acids. The active ingredient does not
    contain any volatile organic compounds and will not degrade to any hazardous or
    environmentally persistent breakdown products (NOSB/TAP, 2003). Dissolved soluble silica
    from commercial sources will be indistinguishable from dissolved soluble silica from natural
    sources and any soluble silica input into aquatic or terrestrial environments will be insignificant
    in relation to the high flux of the natural silica cycle "

    So it is my understanding from my general knowledge that the difference between orthosilicic acid and potassium silicate only exists in the minds of the silicic acid salespersons. I have read studies online looking at the difference between forms and they found none except, foliar is ineffectual compared to in the feed as silica is immobile in the plant so needs to be available all the time for its main benefit, and that the benefit was found to be greatest in feed with silica in the 20-50ppm range, irrespective of form and beyond that diminishing returns or counter productive..

    https://www.mdpi.com/2223-7747/10/4/652/htm

    "However, at the early stages of dissolution, the presence of polymeric species may account for approximately 50% (by mol) of total dissolved silica [76]. Polysilicic acid converts over time to monosilicic acid if the concentration is far below saturation, but with increasing silicic acid concentrations in solution, the polymerization of monosilicic acid to polysilicic acid occurs. Nevertheless, silicic acid in soil solution is not only available for plant uptake and can precipitate but may also bind to (secondary) minerals"

    Poly and mono silicic acids will swing back and forth between the two forms of polymer chains trying to reach equilibrium, with when in an unsaturated solution, like our feed solutions, they will want to swing to be mono chains but the mono chains will also want to polymerise into poly chains...So one could add the purest mono orthosilicic and it would want to polymerise into non available forms, but most would be available, and likewise as a salt of and it would dissociate and most of the silica would be available as monosilicic acid and be want to find the same equilibrium of ratio between the mono and poly forms..

    But I stand to be corrected as always..
    Last edited by maryjaneismyfre; 09-14-2021, 20:17.

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  • CannaRed
    replied
    Originally posted by BillFarthing View Post
    I use Grow Genius for the potency for the price. If it's not available in your state, PowerSi or MSA for monosilicic acid.

    If you are really on a budget, potassium silicate, but you are going to spend time and money on pH down going that direction, which I really didn't want to mess with these last couple rounds.

    If you are looking for a dry organic input, RecycleSil is good. I use rice hulls for aeration in coco and castings as a grow medium this last round. Horsetails work great if you are the KNF/JADAM type.
    I got a bottle of PowerSi on the way. I mentioned this to someone yesterday and they said they did a "side by side" with protekt and PowerSi and he said he noticed nothing different.
    I will do my own experimenting of course, but my question is this-. Have you ever done a side by side with no silica vs with silica?
    It seems in theory it's an excellent supplement to the normal nutrients, but in practice I don't see a difference. That's why I want to try a good monosilicic acid so I could see if there was a difference when I'm using a plant available nutrient.
    I've been reading that potassium silicate isn't plant available and takes 4-6 weeks to become available from the processing of microbial life.
    I'm guessing it's same for silica dioxide?

    I see a member that used to be on Icmag is on IG now. He used to post pics of the ultimate frosty strain I think it was called "machine gun funk". He's posting pics on IG advertising for Aptus saying the reason it's so frosty is because he uses Aptus Fasilitator. I commented asking if he had pics of the plant with out using Aptus. No response. I think it was genetics, but if it really was extra frost because of silica, that's silica that I don't want. Silica ash thru the screen in my lungs can't be good.

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  • BillFarthing
    replied
    I use Grow Genius for the potency for the price. If it's not available in your state, PowerSi or MSA for monosilicic acid.

    If you are really on a budget, potassium silicate, but you are going to spend time and money on pH down going that direction, which I really didn't want to mess with these last couple rounds.

    If you are looking for a dry organic input, RecycleSil is good. I use rice hulls for aeration in coco and castings as a grow medium this last round. Horsetails work great if you are the KNF/JADAM type.

    Leave a comment:


  • CannaRed
    replied
    What are you using for soluble silica? (We may have already discussed this in pm, if that was you, I apologize)
    I have RecycleSil, BioNova Silution, Raw Silica.
    I haven't bothered experimenting with it since I had to start taking care of my grandparents, but I was having hard time getting RecycleSil dissolved where it would show on ec meter.
    Then I tried the solution, and I didn't wait a full 30 minutes and I had a smoking 5 gal bucket. Lol. That was crazy.

    The Raw Silica n the mail is Silica dioxide.
    I also have a bag of old potassium silicate powder that is now a brick.

    ​​​​​​Looking online I saw Aptus Fasilitator. Expensive!!
    and I saw Power Si.
    Most of the other brands are potassium silicate in solution like Protect, and armour si.
    What's your poison? I'm guessing you aren't reaching for the Aptus with your Signature. Lol

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  • BillFarthing
    replied
    Nope. Soluble silica, Jacks or Masterblend, calcium nitrate, and Mr. Fulvic.

    Fulvic acid is immediately bio-available. Humic acid is only suitable for long-term soil building for the carbon content and time it takes to break down to become available to plants.

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