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Silicon, The Misunderstood Element.

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    "thereby reducing the digestibility to herbavovores"! brilliant!

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  • G.O. Joe
    replied
    Found a use for the sodium form of silicate (common water glass) in:
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5620593

    We have observed a positive effect when hemp seeds are primed overnight with a solution of sodium metasilicate (Na2SiO3) 1 mM (Figure 1): the germination rate is higher and the plantlets are more vigorous.

    However - there's nothing there that proves silicate is responsible rather than the water, alkalinity of the solution, or even the sodium, somehow.

    Originally posted by Sante View Post
    If you look into the silica cycle in soil you'll find that silicates(SiO3) go through a chemical change to SiO4. It's a slow process and you usually add silicates like potassium silicate to your soil months before the growing season.
    The difference between silicic acid and soluble silicates is pH - the change is instant to minutes, depending on the concentration and pH.

    It's all been covered at this site in other threads long before this thread was started. Search for silicate or silicic and a lot will come up. Sample:
    https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=248842

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    happy to have native elders who enjoyed botany, i mean if you got horsetail growing anywhere nearby its top shelf source of silica!

    http://www.ryandrum.com/threeherbs1.htm

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  • Ibechillin
    replied
    Came across this post on sprouting and fermenting rice shoots I wanted to share with everyone:

    Originally posted by CC_2U View Post
    Sprout some rice - the silica is in the shoots/plant material long before it is used by the plant to create the seed hulls.

    I have not had any luck with perfumed rice - Basmati, Jasmine, etc. - probably from the curing process. Hardcore brown rice from the healthfood stores worked best for me as far as sprouting.

    I let them get about 10" in length and then shoved them into a 1/2 gallon Mason jar filled with water and let it sit for 7 - 10 days. You'll see the signs of fermentation. Dilute and apply.

    HTH

    CC

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  • G.O. Joe
    replied
    The GH Armor Si didn't amaze me either, but at least it seems to have no sodium in it - Botanicare's Silica Blast says derived from sodium and potassium silicates. Why not just potassium? Either way it sucks to have such an alkaline additive.

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  • Love&Peace
    replied
    I've used Botanicare's Silica product but haven't noticed a tangible change. I think its a good additive but probably not going to make a noticeable difference without it.

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  • CannaRed
    replied
    Originally posted by Sante View Post
    Hi, could someone explain me which is the best formula to incrising silicium in coco growed plant?


    SiO4 os SiO2(silicon dioxide)..H4SiO4?


    I found SiO2 with potassium(for example in : Armor sil, potsil, armor tech etc(potassium silicate?) and SiO4 for example into mineralmagic (calcium carbonate?)..could has any sense to use both in the two different stages?


    according with this previous posted chart:

    View Image




    which should be the more efficacy product?


    SAAT cropsil product really worth?

    https://www.zimex.cl/wp-content/uplo...forma-2017.pdf



    As they claim "silicates / SiO2, etc.re not plant available. Only mono-silicic acid (SA) can be absorbed by plants."

    so all the products for sale (GHE, Growtechnology, BAC) are completely useless?

    in another forum i found this:





    "Monosilicic acid? Primarily as a pure silica additive in the form that plants uptake quicker. It's H4SiO4.

    If you look into the silica cycle in soil you'll find that silicates(SiO3) go through a chemical change to SiO4. It's a slow process and you usually add silicates like potassium silicate to your soil months before the growing season. Using a monosilicic acid, you don't have to wait, basically. Plants will uptake SiO4 ions at a faster rate than SiO3 ions. And all these reasons are why silicic acid is commonly used on turf, at golf courses, for example, where you need quick growth turn around."


    I'm ever more confused.



    Hoping somebody could kind help me and sorry for my english!
    I'm confused with you.

    Recently got a bag of RecycleSil I think it's called.
    Recycled from rice hulls, amorphous silica.
    I came back here to study, because I remember ibechillin had done quite a bit of research.

    Mostly, I'm not educated enough to understand, with a little bit of conflicting science thrown in, I'm totally lost.

    Im thinking that we should use different types of silica at different times, depending on our goal?

    One for root drench type applications, another for Foliar?

    I miss ibechillin! We need your brain!!

    Leave a comment:


  • Sante
    replied
    Hi, could someone explain me which is the best formula to incrising silicium in coco growed plant?


    SiO4 os SiO2(silicon dioxide)..H4SiO4?


    I found SiO2 with potassium(for example in : Armor sil, potsil, armor tech etc(potassium silicate?) and SiO4 for example into mineralmagic (calcium carbonate?)..could has any sense to use both in the two different stages?


    according with this previous posted chart:






    which should be the more efficacy product?


    SAAT cropsil product really worth?

    https://www.zimex.cl/wp-content/uplo...forma-2017.pdf



    As they claim "silicates / SiO2, etc.re not plant available. Only mono-silicic acid (SA) can be absorbed by plants."

    so all the products for sale (GHE, Growtechnology, BAC) are completely useless?

    in another forum i found this:





    "Monosilicic acid? Primarily as a pure silica additive in the form that plants uptake quicker. It's H4SiO4.

    If you look into the silica cycle in soil you'll find that silicates(SiO3) go through a chemical change to SiO4. It's a slow process and you usually add silicates like potassium silicate to your soil months before the growing season. Using a monosilicic acid, you don't have to wait, basically. Plants will uptake SiO4 ions at a faster rate than SiO3 ions. And all these reasons are why silicic acid is commonly used on turf, at golf courses, for example, where you need quick growth turn around."


    I'm ever more confused.



    Hoping somebody could kind help me and sorry for my english!
    Last edited by Sante; 11-18-2019, 02:38.

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  • captainrelief
    replied
    "Silicon provides many benefits for plants including increased shoot and root density and increased yields (of which up to 65ppm of Si has been shown to be the most advantageous in hydroponic systems), it more importantly provides a much needed defense for plants against both biotic and abiotic stressors."

    up to 65ppm?

    so depending which conversation rate that is stated... its insanely small amount.

    0.1ec=50ppm=70ppm

    i have growthtechnologys liquid silica and by quick test 0.1ml of the stuff in 1liter of water ups the ec already by 0.2ec.

    and they state that you use it 0.5ml per liter o_O

    what gives?

    Leave a comment:


  • wvkindbud38
    replied
    Bump!!!! When do most of you guys stop using silicone in flowering?? I feed about 1/2 teaspoon almost every feeding. I'm about half way into flowering and usually kinda start backing off with 3wks to go or something.

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  • troutman
    replied
    I used Gaia's brand of Greensand in my last grow to boost silicon levels. I didn't really measure
    anything. I just added a few tablespoons per plant. Gaia Green Greensand is an iron potassium
    silicate containing 7% potassium (K2O), 20% iron oxide (FeO2), and as many as thirty other
    mineral elements.

    Leave a comment:


  • bsgospel
    replied
    Bump again
    this thread/conversation has a lot to contribute for those who haven't seen it
    https://logicalgardener.org/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=174
    OO/Spurr have a great conversation a few pages into this (like, starting page 8 but there are a lot of good calculations and stock solutions before that.)

    Leave a comment:


  • Ibechillin
    replied
    BUMP! Post #26 and #27 finally done! Enjoy!

    Leave a comment:


  • Ibechillin
    replied
    Silicic Acid Loss Between Initial Fertilization And Time Between PH Adjustment:





    Below you can see a graphical representation of a choline molecule's structure, choline is basically a beta aminoacid that is able to stabilize silicic acid by binding to its oxygen atoms through the positive trimethyl amine group, inhibiting polymerization:



    Some commercial producers of stabilized silicic acid claim that their product contains 100% monosilicic acid, but this is incorrect. Commercial products with stabilized silicic acid contain monosilicic acid as well as its oligomers (disilicic acid, trisilicic acid, etc.), because in an aqueous solution monosilicic acid is in equilibrium with its oligomers.



    The concentration of Si in the sSA sprays was 7–45 ppm (1–6 mL of the product with ±2.5% sSA/L). These concentrations are 20–100 times lower compared to the Si concentration in foliar silicate sprays (500–1000 ppm). The optimal sSA concentration of the spray differs according to the crop. For growth stimulation, 2 mL/L silicic acid is sufficient for most crops, while 4–6 mL is optimal for sugarcane. The best results in reducing infection rates and mite infestations are achieved using concentrations of 4 mL/L sSA, Concentrations of silicic acid >6 mL/L (60 ppm) are not effective; no increase of growth and yield were obtained compared to the control. A spraying frequency of 3–4 times is optimal for most crops; 3–4 sprays are more effective than one or two.

    In conclusion, sSA sprays are only effective when concentrations of 1–6 mL/L (Si: 7–45 ppm) are used at 10–20-day intervals, from the early vegetative stage onwards. Positive effects on growth, development, quality and the reduction of infections and mite infestations have been reported for plants grown in alkaline, neutral and more acidic soils, especially when stress factors such as salinity and acidity are involved.

    6. Summary and conclusions Results And Table are From: The Effects of Foliar Sprays with Different Silicon Compounds (PDF)
    (The vast majority of these experiments were conducted in a randomized complete block design (RCBD) with at least three replications. Species tested include Cucumber, Muskmelon, Zucchini, Grapes, Strawberries, Rice, Soybean, Wheat, Poinsettia, Beans, Capsicum (bell pepper), Mango, Date Palm, Chili)

    https://www.mdpi.com/2223-7747/7/2/45/pdf

    Links To Other Sources:

    Polymerization Of Silicic Acids:

    https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article...3/5_3_245/_pdf

    Silicon In Soil And Plants (PDF) (From Book Silicon And Plant Diseases):

    https://www.springer.com/cda/content...438-p177646737

    Harley Smith/NPK industries Explains Biogenic Silica:

    https://www.npk-university.com/resou...ic_Silica.html

    The Effects of Foliar Sprays with Different Silicon Compounds:

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6027496/

    Silica in Plants: Biological, Biochemical and Chemical Studies

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2759229/

    Stabilized Solution Of Ortho-Silicic Acid, Its Preparation And Use (Patent Literature On Stabilizing Monosilicic Acid):

    https://patents.google.com/patent/WO2012035364A1

    Is Stabilized Ortho-Silicic Acid Worth The Additional Expense?

    https://scienceinhydroponics.com/201...droponics.html

    SILICON IN AGRICULTURE:

    https://hortcom.wordpress.com/silico...culture-theme/
    Last edited by Ibechillin; 12-15-2018, 01:37.

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  • Ibechillin
    replied
    Originally posted by Mr. Greengenes View Post
    Cool thread, thanks everyone for contributing. I do what troutman says, I use regular playground sand in my soilmix. Quite a bit, actually. Sometimes it's probably 25% of the total. I flower plants quite root bound, so they visibly reduce the mass of the soil in that last container. Since I recycle 100% of my mix (have been for decades), I get an opportunity to see how much of each amendment gets used over time. On average, I go through 1-1/2 90lb. bags of playground sand a year. Some of that is just waste that I couldn't shake off the roots and ends up in the garden, but the rest is being 'eaten' by plants. It took me a couple decades to wrap my head around that. Apparently, plants 'eat' sand!

    Other growers often remark that my plants have very strong stems. Of course, I often credit genetics, but I have no doubt that silica plays a role there too. But, there are many variables to consider. Like troutman, I also add greensand.
    Mr. Greengenes thanks for that, both very interesting and confusing at the same time haha!

    Originally posted by Mr. Greengenes View Post
    I also use crushed up hardwood charcoal, which makes quite an obvious difference not only in stem strength but also in leaf color(s).
    I learned today biochar made from wheat, barley and rice (or other high silicon accumulating plants) works well to as a silicon source, i bet the hardwood has a good amount. Speaking of natural sllicon sources horsetail is high in it.

    Excerpt From Source Article In Post #27:

    Because of the added value of plant-based silicon sources to overall soil quality, the silicon-rich materials from plant biomass as potential sources of bioavailable silicon were evaluated. The application of biochar improved the soil chemical properties (e.g., the pH and cation exchange capacity, among others) and the soil physical properties, such as water-holding capacity and aggregation (Glaser et al. 2002;Chan et al. 2007).

    According to Ma and Takahashi (2002), rice straw has been widely used as source of silicon primarily because of the long-term effect (40 years) of rice straw on the plant-available silicon concentrations in soil. The silicon in the rice straw is not fully available in the short-term, but the amount of silicon that becomes plant-available in the long-term could exceed 70 % of the amount applied. The silicon-rich materials from industrial wastes and plant biomass are applied
    in large amounts. Because most of these materials are also good liming agents, the pH values of the soils that receive these materials commonly increase substantially (Tubaña et al. 2012a; Haynes et al. 2013)


    Originally posted by Bud Green View Post
    I have a question...

    Silica sand is mined not too far from me...
    I can get a trailer load of it for the taking..
    It is fairly fine, (like sand for iron casting molds) and is very white and pure...

    Other than for creating drainage in my soil, would silica sand do any good in my garden,
    or is the silicon locked up in the grains and unavailable for plant uptake??
    From what I understand currently the silicon in sand is in a very unavailable form for plants and microorganisms, and the small portion that does become available silicon is lost to oligomerization/polymerization...I planned on making the bioavailabilty/Oligomerization/polymerization portion a thread of its own lol, Ill try and network with a few people (like only ornamental, jidoka and maybe slownickel) for more insight as they probably have more experience in this area.

    Originally posted by jrelax View Post
    Bio Silica.
    Originally posted by Malato View Post
    You guys think if youre using a mix with actual soil(dirt mixed in with my compost) that this doesnt apply? Since there would certainly already be loads of silica. Or does the form of silica make a difference?
    Jrelax interesting you would mention bio silica (its silicon dioxide...its water soluble, but minimal plant silicon bioavailability from what i understand). Malato there are both available and non available forms of Silicon. Silicon chemistry is complicated...Things are about to get complicated...For starters, Silicon is best taken up by the roots for use in growth, foliar application is more as a preventative for pest/disease (stabilized monosilicic acid is the exception as it has been shown to give overall improvements to many crops from foliar sprays explained below).

    Silicon is the second most abundant element in the earth’s crust after oxygen, Content of soils ranges from 1% to 45% dry weight (Sommer et al 2006), with an average of 28% Si by dry weight. In rocks, the concentrations of silicon range from 23 % (e.g., basalt) to 46.5 % (e.g., orthoquartzite) (Monger and Kelly 2002). Trace amounts of silicon are also in carbonaceous rocks such as the limestones and the carbonites (Monger and Kelly 2002). Certain soils contain low levels of this element, These soils include the Oxisols and the Ultisols, which are typically characterized as highly weathered, leached, acidic and low in base saturation (Foy 1992), and the Histosols, which contain high levels of organic matter and very low mineral contents (Snyder et al. 1986). Additionally, the soils that are composed of a large fraction of quartz sand and those that have been under long-term crop production typically have low plant available silicon (Datnoff et al. 1997).

    The vast majority of Si compounds in the soil consists of silicate minerals, aluminum silicates and several forms of silicon dioxide (sand/quartz) none of which are available for plant uptake. Several silicon fertilizers are made with silicates (potassium silicate) and silicon dioxides (bio silica/biogenic silica, rice hull ash etc and diatomaceous earth). The only plant bioavailable silicon compound is H4SiO4 monosilicic acid (synonym: orthosilicic acid). The large quantities of silicon present in soil do not reflect the amount of soluble and plant-available monosilicic acid, the conversion of these solid silicon compounds into monosilicic acid is very low. In addition, the MSA concentration in the soil is also low due to the polymerization of MSA into oligomeric and polymeric silicic acids, resulting in a relative deficiency of monosilicic acid in the soil.

    In soils, silicon is generally grouped into three different fractions: the liquid phase, the adsorbed phase and the solid phase (Matichencov and Bocharnikova 2001; Sauer et al. 2006). The components of silicon in the liquid and adsorbed phases are similar, with exception that those in liquid phase are dissolved in the soil solution, whereas those that are adsorbed are held onto soil particles and the Fe and Al oxides/hydroxides.



    The uncharged form of H4SiO4 (monosilicic acid) is the only form that is absorbed by plants and microorganisms. The absorbed silicon is later deposited as polymerized silica within the plant tissues or the cell structure of the microorganisms. These polymerized silica bodies return to the topsoil in the litter fall, and the remains of microorganisms eventually enter the highly soluble biogenic silica pool that contributes to the silicon in the soil solution (Drees et al. 1989; Van Cappellen 2003; Farmer et al. 2005; Saccone et al. 2007; Fraysse et al. 2010). Silicon is also added to soils with applications of manure and compost, and the decomposition of silicon-rich manure can increase the level of available soil silicon (Song et al. 2013).

    Comprehensive Cycle Of Silicon In Soil:



    Green arrows represent transformation or processes which raise silicon concentration in soil solution.
    Yellow arrows represent the transformation or processes which reduce silicon concentration in soil solution.
    Red arrows represent processes that result in silicon loss from the soil system or production of stable plant unavailable form of silicon.
    Blue arrows represent transformation processes of silicon into a silica pool that contributes this element into the soil solution.

    Takahasi et al. 1990 categorized plant species based on the mechanisms of silicon uptake. The plants that rely primarily on active, passive or rejective mechanisms are classified as high, intermediate or non accumulators, respectively. The plants in the high-accumulator category have a silicon content in the shoot that ranges from 1.0 % to 10 % dry weight, an amount equivalent to, or even exceeding, several macronutrients (Epstein, 1994).

    The dicots examined (cucumber/tomato), which accumulate <0.2 % shoot dry weight silicon, form the low-accumulator group. Mitani and Ma (2005) attributed the low silicon accumulation in this group of plants to a lack of specific transporters to facilitate the radial transport and the xylem loading of silicon and suggested that the transport of silicon across cells was accomplished via a passive diffusion mechanism. Later, Liang et al. (2006) showed that both the active and the passive uptake of silicon, which occur in high-accumulator plants like Sunflowers (another hyper accumlator like Cannabis) are also found in the intermediate-accumulator plants.

    The absorbed H4SiO4 is transported through the xylem and is deposited in the leaf epidermal surfaces in which it is condensed into a hard, polymerized silica gel (SiO2·nH2O), also known as a phytolith (Yoshida et al. 1962; Jones and Handreck 1965, 1967; Raven 1983). According to Lanning (1963), the phytoliths are best classified as biogenic opal (Si-O-Si bonding). The absorbed H4SiO4 is preferentially deposited in the abaxial epidermis, but as the leaf grows, the deposition occurs in the epidermis (Hodson and Sangster 1988). The deposited silica is immobile and is not transferred to actively growing or meristematic tissues (Elawad and Green 1979; Ma et al. 1989; Epstein 1999). Transpiration remains a viable option as one of the primary drivers in silicon transport and deposition in plants, and therefore, the duration of plant growth significantly affects the concentration of silicon, for example older leaves contain more silicon than younger leaves (De Saussure 1804; Henriet et al. 2006).

    In the amelioration of biotic-related stresses, the role of silicon was first recognized in the modification of plant cell wall properties (Horst et al. 1999; Fawe et al. 2001; Lux et al. 2002; Iwasaki et al. 2002a, b). The deposition of biogenic silica in shoots increases the structural component of the plant and creates a hard outer layer (Rafi et al. 1997; Bélanger et al. 2003). Most of the reported benefits in crop quality and yield following silicon fertilization resulted from the improved overall mechanical strength and an outer layer of enhanced protection for the plant (Epstein 1999, 2001; Ma and Takahashi 2002; Epstein and Bloom 2005)

    Figure Shows Effect Of Ph On Silicon Plant Availability:



    Matichencov and Bocharnikova (2001) provided an overview of the formation of the different silicic acid species in soil solution as affected by the rates of silicon fertilization. Three phases were established based on the changes in the concentrations of monosilicic and polysilicic acids. At the lowest end of the range of silicon fertilization rates the concentration of H4SiO4 in the soil solution is the highest. As the rate of added silicon increases, the concentration of the monosilicic acid reaches a certain point and then begins to polymerize (the formation of polysilicic acid) becoming unavailable to plants.

    The polymerization of silicic aicd is strongly pH dependent. Shown below is the concentraition of monosilicic acid of different Ph solutions after 24hr (Top line) and 75hr (bottom line). In a very acid solution (Ph 0-4.8) after both 24 and 75hr no polymerization (loss) takes place. The monosilicic acid concentration decreases rapidly in the Ph 5-7 (where most plants prefer).



    Temperature Effect On Silicic Acid Polymerization at Ph 8.5:

    Last edited by Ibechillin; 02-10-2019, 23:01.

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