Too much inbreeding, normal genetic diversity, or are they sick?

[Mary57]

High,

The first growing season after Proposition 64 passed, I bought some unusually cheap bud at the dispensary that was clearly labelled "may contain seeds" and planted the seeds.

That was only three generations ago, but here is a recentish picture of this year's seedlings:



They were all planted right around New Year's day and grown under identical conditions until the two larger ones were ready to be moved to a DIY veg tent. The one on the right looks great, but the middle one is very pale and is starting to resemble the runt.

I've always gotten a runt, but I planted six of them the first time and four last year, and neither runt was anywhere near as extreme. I still have a clone of last year's runt, but it isn't a runt any more.

I gave the one in the middle some extra nitrogen after I took the picture, but it didn't seem to help much. She still looks too pale to me. I thought I was going to lose the one on the left a bunch of times, but it pulled through.

I'm not sure how ethical it is to just keep inbreeding bagseed, but I really like these guys. I've got a lot more seeds from both the second and third generations, so finances aren't the issue.

Do the littler ones just look sick? They are in three parts OFF to one part perlite. They get Grow Big nutes, maybe not exactly every other time I water them but close enough.

The runt is under one flourescent shop light with the new clones and younger seedlings and the bigger ones have two flourescents, nine dollar store SILs that draw 12 actual watts each, and a $30ish LED panel from eBay that draws ~<45 actal watts. That is enclosed in a DIY tent with mylar closest to the plants and panda film over the mylar.

Any suggestions? TIA

 

[FletchF.Fletch]

Hi,

Can you give a quick plant care summary? What type of soil, lights, feeds? Looks like a deficiency at first glance, but the symptoms are nearly identical for nutrient lockout. Also, if you can take a picture of just the affected plant a little closer up to see its leaves better.

 

[Mary57]

Thank you so much! That's what I am beginning to suspect as well.

It's a standard newbie grow: three parts Foxfarm Ocean Forest to one part Perlite. They get Foxfarm Grow Big full strength at least once a week, but I'm not that great about remembering who got watered when, and the instructions recommend every other feeding.

I prefer Dr. Earth outside because that just gets too fidgety.

The dwarf is still in the nursery area, which is just a single T5 flourescent and whatever they get that makes it through the windows past the blinds and curtains.

Closeup leaf shot of the dwarf, taken this morning:



The dwarf has never been healthy. Here's an older shot, but it's doing better now.



The bigger two are in a DIY "lego"/"tinker toy" style tent. They went in when it had two T5s and a ~<$30 blurple panel from eBay, but I have since added nine SIL LED bulbs, each of which draws 12 actual watts. It might help to show you a picture of it later.

Here is a closeup leaf shot of the larger affected plant:



A closer shot of what it looks like this morning:



and older shot of it before I became concerned about the pale foliage:

 

[Mary57]

even older:



the most recent shot of clones taken from the two larger plants from my diary; the affected plant is on the right ("Faith"). The clone doesn't look as bad as the mother, but it is noticably paler than the clone of the heathy plant now:



and a shot of the aunt ("Sunshine" or the one on the left) outdoors, compared to the mother of these seedlings ("Stephanie" or the one on the right) and another unaffected aunt:

 

[FletchF.Fletch]

It almost looks like Spider Mites. Take one of the affected leaves off the plant and put it onto a clean sheet of printer paper. It should be right side up, you should leave it on the paper for a few minutes then tap the leaf gently. You'll be looking to dislodge any inhabitants on the underside of the leaf onto the clean paper. Then watch for any movement. If anything changes position on the paper, it's bugs most likely Spider Mites. If it has Mites, that slows growth rate increasing likelihood of issues from Overwatering and nutrient buildup.

I can tell from your other plants that you know what you're doing. Just remember to be cautious when bringing new plants into the Indoor Garden. This includes any Cuttings or Seedlings introduced from elsewhere, especially if they've been Outside.

 

[FletchF.Fletch]

Also, if the Delta 10 cubes are being potted with soil you have to be careful about you ph and ec. Do you test nutrient solutions and runoff?

 

[Mary57]

Also, if the Delta 10 cubes are being potted with soil you have to be careful about you ph and ec. Do you test nutrient solutions and runoff?

I usually just test the water first and forget to retest after I add the nutes. I've never tested the runoff.

It could well be spider mites. Those nasty little buggers pretty much destroyed my first indoor run of last year's best outdoor producer. I got less than an eighth of larfy little buds out of a three foot tall clone that was just plain done with life.

The clone of last year's pale weakling got a ton of Neem Oil during that episode and went on to turn dark green and produce a lot of bud.

Thank you so much for your time and perspective.

 

[Joint Lock]

PH of water should be last thing u do after mixing your stuff up . to me they look over fed and over watered

 

[XbX]

in my experience after inbreeding or 3 or more generations you start to see a few of the dominant genes taking hold. some of them can be related to plants being more susceptible to certain stresses or even genetic expression of specific trait, eg weak and slow growing root system.

that being said your plants look sick to me. like the other guy said, check for mites. to me, it looks like nutrient lockout if its not mites.

what i do in these situations, i use this stuff which has 0.05g/l indole acetic acid and 0.05g/l napthalene acetic acid. I flush the plants concerned with plain water and then drop 40mls of this stuff into a 50ltr reservoir of normal nutrient, feed as normal. thats for hydro though. the dosage will be less for soil or coco.

that stuff basically kick starts the root system, rebuilding fresh feeder roots in a short time giving plants new set of legs if i can put it that way...it also perks up the shoots after a few days

the product is called plant starter where i am, its also used to stand clones in before putting into a medium

 

[...CR500AF...]

I am not sure what you call inbreeding do you mean you are just taking clones ? Or are you reversing a female and selecting from there,or are you doing seed runs then selecting.? ? ?

 

[Mary57]

I am not sure what you call inbreeding do you mean you are just taking clones ? Or are you reversing a female and selecting from there,or are you doing seed runs then selecting.? ? ?

I've been planting the seeds that I grew from bagseed for three years. It's been a fun project and I am very attached to the results: sometimes the grandchildren of the seeds from a fifteen dollar eighth get me high when nothing else does.

But a lot has changed, both in the legal cannabis world and in my own life. I question the ethics of bringing living beings into this world if I am dooming them to unhealthy lives.

This winter's big milestones for me were successfully keeping clones alive all winter and becoming more comfortable connecting with the cannabis community online. I'm wondering if it might be time to let breeding go for awhile until I have a better idea of what I'm doing.

There's a spiritual aspect to growing this plant that I guess I hadn't counted on. I've got a lot to learn.

On the positive side, both of the larger plants are definitely girls. The clone I took to sex the one in the middle ("Faith") has greened up nicely in the bud tent, so I took a second clone. I see some progress in the dwarf ("Dog") but not much in Faith.

They have been flushed and then treated with some indole acetic acid as well as lots of neem oil. I'm pretty sure I see mite damage on some other plants.

 

[...CR500AF...]

Sounds like you got a handle on it Mary57 hope everything comes back around and you get them healthy.