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Landrace experiment in Alps

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    #46
    Hey guys,

    can you please debate off topic issues somewhere else?

    This thread was great and focused on rosomah's work, now it looks a total mess.
    Thanks for contributing but please focus a bit on where you are posting stuff.



    Cheers
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      #47
      Since this became lore thread until spring 2021 i am very interested in details, sure its hard to find good information on cannabis, especially drug-type. There is a lot of information on forums but it is hard to distinguish anecdotes and stoner tales from what is out there. It is a bit easier to start from scientific publications via sci-hub and library genesis.


      For me foundations are the single most important thing. Yes, the learning curve is slow at start but once you get a grasp it go brrr


      I am really sad for the anti-science sentiment and conspiracy theories spreading around the internet, especially now with corona stuff. YET at the same time I understand most people don't have the same socioeconomic conditions and free time to relax/research/work on mental health. I have my critiques of the scientific method but think this is the best mode of thinking about the world so far.


      Back to cannabis, I think in past 50 years a huge shift happened. We went from imported to mostly indoor produced. Plants were selected for short stature, dense bud and resin production. Sales are mostly dependant on marketing (GHSC). Even outdoor strains are mostly produced indoors and maybe, maybe they are tested outdoor in a few different environments. Don't get me wrong strains/cultivars/clone lines have gone a long way and many people involved are smarter than i ever will be. Hybrids of past 30-40 years are hat off insane producers in comparison to traditional varieties.


      Hybrid strains are like the Habsburgs, inbred If you are all about growing this is excellent but if you are trying to do something new they lack many traits that “wild” and cultivated populations have in their centres of diversity. And i totally agree with John M. McPartland, Ernest Small, ngakpa and many others there is a need for preserving endangered high THC domesticates and their
      wild relatives. Easiest way is in situ (on site) where they are growing now but ngakpa you can tell more on that, since i dont have a clue.


      Second option of preservation is in seed banks but current “private seedbanks” are mostly for profit seed dealers, oh i am sorry i meant to say “entrepreneurs” (calling people like Arjan out) and public/scientific seedbanks don't have many (if any) high THC populations. I see the most potential in people like ngakpa and people here in icmag and other forums. But we are battle with small population sizes, genetic drift, lack of traceability, mixing up, sampling errors and just stoner problems in general.


      With years i want to expand on these thoughts and make a contribution back to community from which i learned a lot from.

      Comment


        #48
        Nah Koondense it's good


        I wont have anything interesting to post for a while. It's nice to just chill and see what others have to say. You cant go if there was no topic to begin with

        Comment


          #49
          I am super passomated about Tripweed . And just wanted to inform you that the most iconic Regions: like Vietnam 11 000 ft/3000 Meter , Columbia 18000 ft, 5000 meters might bare some old Gold for Alps 15000 ft/4500 meter

          Many take the Himalayans for deportation to alps. But i actually heard Thai beeing frostesistent per example

          I seen Plants have not the easyest time in my Growspots. And i felt its infact Coldness that lowers the outcome to a strong degree.. lol, they look dead.

          The point is: some ThaisLines, not the ones i have, are reported frostresistent.

          And stuff can flower as short a 13 Weeks, actually i found a o old Belizean reported 12 Weeks, thick bud! And i know how hybridnes looks, this wasnt looking too hybrid that much

          The real problem growing a shortflowering tropical here might be sunintensity. Sun is way stronger there. But that might be where Breeding comes in. Im just loving these tropicals, and i see a Way for growing the shortest of them, (depends how high in the alps)

          Comment


            #50
            Originally posted by Rosomah View Post
            Sunshineinabag everyday i learn something new love forums for that.


            romanoweed
            Vaccinium myrtillus and Castanea sativa will 100% tell you soil is acidic.
            General rule: if bedrock is from carbonate sedimentary rock like limestone soil will be heavier in clay and higher pH.
            If soil is from non carbonate sedimentary rock you can expect lower pH. Not a hard rule but something i noticed in my area.
            A thing about the jar test... you cant directly tell from the color of water about nutrients. Hummus (black stuff) is a good indication but salts also bond on clay crystal structure. Clay is the best at retaining nutrients but needs more for exchange to start, meaning i fertilize clay soils more, add more hummus and mulch so they dont dry and crack in summer drought.


            Best combination i noticed so far is light hummus rich top soil and clay subsoil, try to imitate every time when making new spots. Usually i use holes from toppled trees, draw soil in so the hole is leveled, cover with topsoil and sprinkle with fert and mulch. With tools i have its easier than digging and my spine is happier.


            Ngakpa and romanoweed interesting
            I used to have an uncle who would taste the soil and his motor oil to determine when things needed changing....sadly he passed away before I could understand how he did it. By the way I love your thread
            I eat legos

            Comment


              #51
              Vaccinium myrtillus Castanea sativa

              So where these 2 grow i have to raise the ph of the soil.
              Also now i understand why the cestnut tree at my parents place is growing good with no fruit. The soil ph is to high since granddad used a lot of limestone to raise the soil level to the street niveau.

              Thx man. I realy like the pics u post, most the plants in the fog.

              Comment


                #52
                I usually add a handfull of dolomite or limestone dust from a nearby path in that soil yes. How tall is that chestnut tree? what soil is it in? If it's still alive that means deep soil is still quite acidic.

                That fog was really interesting, starting at 700m asl up to 1200m. Wind was cold and wet. In some places drops were falling from trees like light rain. Couldn't have made it without hot pu'er


                Easy test is also with soil and distilled water, similar to clay/silt/sand jar test with those paper pH testers. (the fair enough method)



                If you want to know actual pH you have to do a test with 0,02M (i think) CaCl2. (wiki)

                Comment


                  #53
                  Scientific facts

                  I hear you want to preserve the Richness (or possibly a broad Genetic) of a given Strain.
                  I have that eact goal, a Member called Fuel gave me slightly Anwsers to this rather rare Topic in this Thread:
                  https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=363369

                  After that read this:
                  https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2019...tential-potato

                  An other Member found it, its about how deeply Landrace are changed from wild Ancestors, and how previously accidently outbreed Traits may be hard to re-select for, and are rather easyer to be re-injected trough other same regions Strains
                  Last edited by romanoweed; 11-27-2020, 18:58.

                  Comment


                    #54
                    I have grown now at 3 spots my tropicals, 2 times i had no problem, possibly cause i used bought Soil, but the third spot i didnt exchange Soil, and went straingt into Problems.

                    four suspects:
                    -after 20 Centim. / 8 Inch the Ground was somewhat very dense, Waterflowproblem?
                    -No Nutrients? It was pretty lightweight soil, like Peat
                    -the PH was off, it was inhabited by the roundleaved Bushes you see in following Pic in background, and Moss
                    -Rootbound?


                    Only at end flowering everything startet early to wilt and rot. lost 70 percent of seeds

                    I didnt do any Test, the soil looked kind of good, and i called it a day.. I wished i find a compleete easyreadable indepth Guide what plants to look for, cause i got the Feeling, over the years it would we so easy to learn, and become expert without any measurements

                    Comment


                      #55
                      Originally posted by Rosomah View Post
                      I usually add a handfull of dolomite or limestone dust from a nearby path in that soil yes. How tall is that chestnut tree? what soil is it in? If it's still alive that means deep soil is still quite acidic.

                      That fog was really interesting, starting at 700m asl up to 1200m. Wind was cold and wet. In some places drops were falling from trees like light rain. Couldn't have made it without hot pu'er


                      Easy test is also with soil and distilled water, similar to clay/silt/sand jar test with those paper pH testers. (the fair enough method)



                      If you want to know actual pH you have to do a test with 0,02M (i think) CaCl2. (wiki)
                      I consider the fog a slowfoliar application lol
                      I eat legos

                      Comment


                        #56
                        If i had to quess about 10m or 33 feet. Got a lot of fruits but nothing in them.

                        Soil in that region is known to have a high calcium content, a lot of nurseries recomende for example using plum as a stock for apricot because of that.
                        Think its an ice age gravel field with high ground water level geological.

                        I was planting an apple tree last year and was thinking a lot about my grandad. He was more the pragmatic guy. When he had to raise the level of the place to the new street niveau he used a lot of sandstone.

                        Comment


                          #57
                          Chilliwilli wierd, this doesn't make sense. Is it the only one in the area? Looked up on net and: Chestnut trees by themselves are not necessarily self pollinating (wiki)


                          damn, that was a project and a half!


                          Romanoweed information is out there, i studied agronomy and got to a point i know that i know jack shit ngakpa suggested Cannabis A Complete Guide from Ernest Small. I have to agree it is most up to date book on the subject and best if you want to get a broader understanding. Library genesis is a good place if you don't have money to buy it.


                          To be fair what i am doing right now is playing around and making as many mistakes as possible so in a few years i will know what not to do.
                          Last edited by Rosomah; 11-27-2020, 18:06. Reason: link

                          Comment


                            #58
                            Originally posted by Rosomah View Post
                            ngakpa suggested Cannabis A Complete Guide from Ernest Small. I have to agree it is most up to date book on the subject and best if you want to get a broader understanding. Library genesis is a good place if you don't have money to buy it.
                            ...

                            Comment


                              #59
                              does ernest smalls book anwser how landrace are made? or how to breed it further for rich genetic? for my taste few people adressed inbreeding depression, genetic loss, they more adressed how to reach homogenity, or improovement, wich is not my primary goal.

                              I also dont wanna do mistackes, i simply wanna learn how to copy a strain as is, but since any seedproduction, be it open poll, or selection has always the potential to be the mistacke. so, no way around. Open pollination bares ever the inner dynamic in a Strain, and done to often, your strain reverts to wild ancetors weak in thc

                              Comment


                                #60
                                @nakpa

                                First in our communicaion you say:
                                Originally posted by ngakpa View Post

                                the fact that a strain was collected at 1000 metres does not necessaily mean anything whatsoever about the strain, particulalry in the case of SE Asian ganja domesticates

                                the strains traditionally grown at that altitude in SE Asia are hemp, but that's simply because the people who live at that altitude in Southeast Asia are ethnic minorities who have migrated south from the highlands of southern China, bringing hemp landraces with them
                                Wich for me says pretty clear: some Strains are sometimes taken from elswhere, grown at another place. at high Altitude the hmong minorities brought Hemp to the high Altitude, and this was then further grown, wich indicates, principially all high altitude Stuff is mailnly derivering from Hemp.

                                Then i sayid something like, how do you know for shure what they grew even in 1900 century. You explained then how you are knowledgable about neighbourcounty, wich could mean that you assure me, that is the case for all and any high Altitude Viet Weed.

                                you continued describing something like that:
                                Originally posted by ngakpa View Post
                                Hmong are highlanders from southern China, with a long and quite well-studied tradition of growing hemp and no tradition of growing ganja
                                and that:
                                Originally posted by ngakpa View Post
                                and if you ask Lao in Khammouane about the Hmong growing ganja they will say as they did to me "??? ??? ?? ???????"
                                And many other Quotes telling simply : Hmong grow hemp,
                                But soon you then brought a slightly different anektote like that:
                                Originally posted by ngakpa View Post
                                and if you ask Hmong themselves in the highlands there, they will say - as they did to me - "We only grow it sometimes, because it's an awkward crop to grow right"
                                So. First you your response to my shortflowering highaltitude Viet was seemingly just like: Hmong and with it the high Altitude grows immigrated Hemp, followed by rather small Anektotes like they occasionally grow Marihuana.. The first response was however : Hmong grow immigrated Hemp, and that happen at high altutude.

                                --------

                                Then i akknowledged what your saying partly with a summing up:

                                "Not saying your general Idea that good weed is rare in hmong regions might be true",

                                And you respond to it with:

                                Originally posted by ngakpa View Post
                                that isn't what I said though, is it?

                                I said there's no Hmong tradition of growing ganja,
                                As if it should been clear that the Hemp they grow over periods of time can be good weed... The "is it" make it sound like : oouh, like that should been clear.

                                I think thats unusual that someone should have known that hemp can be or become good weed.

                                With this you might indicate that im not able to communicate right. Cause the "this isnt what i said, isnt it" kind of builds the picture of me making wrong conclusions out what you said, since the seemingly acclaimed "hemp ability to become good Weed" trough your statement "this isnt what i said, isnt it" gets the Body of a Shine you possibly tried to creat of me not beeing able to make right conclusions, and with it not beeing able to communicate propper.

                                Incase that,
                                I inform you that i dont see myselve a someone who is not able to communicate propper.(incase the hemp-beeinng-able-to-become-good-weed Given-ness you might see. Or the otherwise implicated Unability of undertanding your Sentence about Hemp growing Hmong, and with it hemp growing high Altitude, that was followed by later anektotes of occasional (possibly techniqueless) marihuana growing hmong.With it the implicated choosement of only one thing you said, of the Statements about Cannabis at high Altitude. Wich im not shure if i did only choose one side, since you possibly pronounced clearly this Side. Or the otherwise imilcated failing of recognition of you-holding the-posibilitiy-free for Marihuana in High altitudes by non-Hmongs, wich was possibly unmentioned by you, hence it was unlikely a failing of perception of your sentence than rather a unhighlighted-ness of such a sentence, possibly. Could equally likely be, that your anektote
                                "this isnt what i said, isnt it" possibly creating an unlikely picture of an obviousity of such a sentence. Namely unlikely)


                                Sorry so much for the thread.

                                Last edited by romanoweed; 11-28-2020, 01:35.

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