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question for sam the skunkman on the original haze

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    Why is this gettin ugly??
    How many times did kashgari & you state that the seeds used by Nevil were from 1969????here and in other sites??
    I choose to believe Skunkman´s words
    and btw,
    BCSC Haze comes from "lifted" cuts.First Wolman,and then my good friend charlie did the selections,but maybe you know better?????

    EDIT: I made a typo,I wrote 1979 instead of 1969 sry
    Last edited by Raco; 02-07-2016, 12:33.
    A picture is worth a thousand words


      Hola amigos

      I will never put in front a selection of 10.000 individuals done by Sam in the Original Haze with OT Haze. Sure OT haze contains old genes but an accurate selection is needed. Job on them is been done on all individuals available.. our job was to restore the best possible available.

      Bluebeard.. BC job is a joke. As said many times before I personally passed "some" clones to Oldtimer via BC. Never arrived to Oldtimer but were put in the market instead by BC mixing this little population I gave them for OT. Clear and in 2 words. I germed all seeds available. ACE job discharted some individuals and isolated best females and males. Each lot has written the female and male used for any future possibility to identify best individuals and combinations from all orignal seeds.. not f2 at all like you say. We are on third year of this job and still so much to be done. Each year different combiantions are studied. We cannot grow 10000 plants at once but we use time and time to do our best. btw I sent 2 early Haze male cuts..#16 and #25.. they were the earliest available in that moment.. not other consideration about them and at ACE were culled later as not so good at all. So excuse me BB but I dont know who told you or passed you such so incorrect info. Is a joke indeed. Cant talk about other things you express as my adkowledge comes from practical dirty jobs of gardening not theorical as BC seems to talk upon your OT haze comments...

      If you grow and smoke it you will recognize it as a Haze line. Aromas, type of effect, traits found... but I cannot say where these lines come from or if they are a segregation of old Haze jobs or Sam jobs... but definatelly upon my opinion there must be a common old point where they came from.

      I dont think there should be any problem to talk truly. Job done by Sam is galaxies away from what ACE did and universes away from joking BC haze job. Sam and his jobs have all our best, biggest and deepest respects. Wish there were more Sams around to do jobs in the way a real breeding should be done. And wish some other pseudo breeders will act honestly instead of selling others jobs.


      edit, any OT haze with earliness traits is been removed
      Last edited by charlie garcia; 02-25-2008, 02:35.


        Well said charlie!!
        Does BC have the female cut #1??I highly doubt it
        I have it
        They don´t even know what they have...
        A picture is worth a thousand words


          Hola Raco

          I dont know what they have or not. I disagree an open pollination could help the line at all.. but opposite in this case, you have to check each and every individual and grow each and every combination

          Last edited by charlie garcia; 02-25-2008, 02:45.


            Originally posted by Raco
            Why is this gettin ugly??
            How many times did kashgari & you stated that the seeds used by Nevil were from 1979????here and in other sites??
            I choose to believe Skunkman´s words
            and btw,
            BCSC Haze comes from "lifted" cuts.First Wolman,and then my good friend charlie did the selections,but maybe you know better?????
            Okay il jump out of the fox hole .

            hiya roco why it will get ugly well tell me one haze post that dont when people start to post its bound to happen.

            I never sed seeds used by nevile were from 1979 mate there from 69 find a single post i sed 79 or that kashgari has sed 79 you wont find one.

            I have a lot of respect for sam sure i may not agree with sam on things but it dont mean i dont like or respect him why do you think i watch wat i say to sam ?, Its not becouse im sceard of sam its becouse the guy called sam the skunk man has seen and done a lot and if you like him or not just like nevile and other they are pioners of this colture / community and are desrving of people respect full stop something many in this community dont show others its become a greed and self ego strokeing movement.

            I know shanti i call him a close friend met him more than once spoke to him and did ask him about haze he is one of the most honest people you could hope to met.

            You know if i start here whats it going to achive or solve roco im only going to piss of ace seeds im going to piss of breeders choice and oldtimer and many more whats it realy going to achive man ?.

            I have been growing non stop since 79 started on pure sativas only realy did dutch lines as people call them since realy 2002 i ran a few before that but not many smoket lots of things grown from dutch lines tho and you know not all dutch lines suck as i also once thort my self infact some comercial avaluble seed lines can be very special if you put some effert in the selection .

            Roco read this.

            Originally posted by Sam_Skunkman
            But maybe he meant seeds from 1969? And not grown until the 80's? To be honest I do not know.


              hola Hempy

              I agree there should not be a problem to talk an exchange opinions. Sometimes you talked about "elongated" trues hehe you can see how OT haze came short ago and is producing already misinformation.. so strange When things and facts are simple and should be kept simple.

              As you Hempy I am an stranger with the so called dutch genetics and only grew landraces for decades. So knowing a bit about wild sativa populations something I am shocked with the low hermi ratios found in Hazes. I dont know how they did in the past or which exact lines can be contained but some of this original breeding was so good on this sense... we know nowdays so many sativas are full of hermis. I can understand Sam really bred them well but seems other not so worked hazes are not much prone to hermis either.

              Thats something always surprised me about hazes... a nice fine job indeed

              Last edited by charlie garcia; 02-25-2008, 03:45.


                Sorry for bringing up a sore subject guys, I had just gotten the impression from reading the description, that you guys had worked the line more heavily. Didn't mean any offense by it, one way or the other. For some reason I thought your female numbering system went higher than the original quantity of seeds you had been working with. There was perhaps one concern with your approach where Dubi had mentioned that he chose not to breed with the 5-10% that took the longest to flower, but that is it. Just a misunderstanding I suppose.


                  not problem BB, is good to talk and clear subjects. We culled too early phenos

                  Best wishes
                  Last edited by charlie garcia; 02-25-2008, 03:57.


                    The Original Hazes never did have much hermis, maybe the Haze with Thai bloodlines had a few. We just never used hermis for breeding period.
                    They also traditionally gave 60-70 % the the plants female, the sex ratio was not 50/50.
                    All my best Original Hazes orver the years were late maturing not early.
                    BTW Original Haze is not Dutch genetics, it was developed in California, moved to Netherlands.

                    Last edited by Sam_Skunkman; 02-25-2008, 04:01.


                      Thx Sam for info. Gets me amazed such low ratio. Is hard to compare in that sense with a lot of present wild sativas. All works to erradicate best possible these hermi traits takes here so long and sometimes is impossible. So trying to create again another Haze from present world lines, apart of other traits and potencies, sounds like a really hard task.

                      Anytime I read about your 10.000 plants to select makes feel exhausted. Great indeed



                        refreshing memories...
                        Originally posted by Raco
                        ask kashgari :-)
                        He mentioned another source of Haze genetics,not only the Skunkman

                        QUOTE=Dalaihempy]Raco shanti clearly stated neville got seed from the brothers and why its called haze i wounder how many calling there lines haze infact got theres from the brothers or are infact even related the the brothers line.[/QUOTE]

                        kashgari edited his posts ,but I printed the thread before that [/QUOTE]

                        Originally posted by Raco
                        I don´t have it handy...but he basically said that Sam knows who...
                        Originally posted by Dalaihempy
                        Kas cant post under his acount as he lost his pass ward that is one reson why he has not posted .

                        Raco for it to be haze it had to of come from the haze brothers not just cali the fact nevile collected haze seed that was made in 69 and i belive the oldest haze not inuf info for you.

                        I dont get this personaly shanti sed neville got the seeds from the hz brothers now when they say 69 did any one stop and think that infact the seed was made in 69 i dont know when neville collected it or cear personaly what matters to me as a grower is that its infact real haze and the end resolt is what i expect it to be i know neville collected it from the us as i asket as i to read many things that did not add up to me i was told in person and things dont need to be complicated or mytrhical to be fact in the canna world guys.

                        Neville did a lot and in all honesty i can now see why he dont post online or why he dont bother with much more than his plants now days cant blame him.
                        A picture is worth a thousand words


                          hey sam and about purple haze ?
                          song by the famous jimi hendrix, my heroe

                          Purple haze all in my brain
                          Lately things just dont seem the same
                          Actin funny, but I dont know why
                          scuse me while I kiss the sky
                          Purple haze all around
                          Dont know if Im comin up or down
                          Am I happy or in misery?
                          What ever it is, that girl put a spell on me
                          Help me
                          Help me
                          Oh, no, no
                          [faint, spoken lyrics...all questionable]
                          Talkin bout heart n...s-soul
                          Im talkin about hard stuff
                          If everbodys still around, fluff and ease, if
                          So far out my mind
                          Somethings happening, somethings happening
                          Ooo, ahhh
                          Ooo, {click} ahhh,
                          Ooo, ahhh
                          Ooo, ahhh, yeah!
                          Purple haze all in my eyes, uhh
                          Dont know if its day or night
                          You got me blowin, blowin my mind
                          Is it tomorrow, or just the end of time?
                          Help me
                          Ahh, yea-yeah, purple haze, yeah
                          Oh, no, oh
                          Oh, help me
                          Purple haze, tell me, baby, tell me
                          I cant go on like this
                          Purple haze
                          Youre makin me blow my mind...mama
                          Purple haze, n-no, nooo
                          Purple haze, no, its painful, baby


                            Hiya charlie yes the older breeders deserve credit sam nevile and many more that few have ever heard of the proof is in there work decades later its still about in peoples gardens.

                            The funny thing with sativas i saw no hermies in them after sexing i saw hermies at sexing but never saw sativas hermie once sexet as a fem or male ever show hermie traits even if that female plant took a long long time to mature but that was my experence the first time i did see female plants show hermie traits once sexet and well into flower was infact dutch lines as there called.

                            I even had some pure sativa lines show no hermies at all in there lines one was a thia sativa they in thialand that my friend got it from called golden budda wich i think was wat many called chock thia i know there were many diffrent thia lines my favret was the golden budda that friend got me that traveled there for work often threw the years i lost it now becouse of bad storage methods but hopeing to re get it and infact asket some one on the weekend to ask him for me as i have had some luck in resent years in germing old seed in the hope he has some still.

                            Hiya sam you know the first time i smoke haze be it a haze hybreed the first thing that it reminded me off was a thia like high.

                            I dont know if tripping weed that was here in the 70s was haze but it had a very simila affect to haze.

                            I my self find the long flowering ones my pick i have seen many haze hybreeds flower long one of my favret plants i call queeny wich is a mangohaze phino took 17/18 weeks to flower from seed odly from clone comes in at 8/9 weeks cant explane the time diffrence from seed to clone but seen it in a few plants some even if they take long in seed still take long as a clone not sure why some do some dont but even if this phino still took 17/18 weeks in flower from clone id still run her as the high is worth ever day it takes took mature.

                            All i know is haze was a sativa hybreed even if 10 breeders started with the same seeds from the same batch from the brothers after each worket the line they would all have a diffrent out come why well its simple haze was not stable and each person selects and has diffrent aims some may try to seek out faster finishing plants others seek a given taste and some only seek yield others dont cear for bag apeal / taste or flowering times but are only intrested in a given affect.

                            Roco i did post that yes its not hard to work out for it to be haze it had to be from the brothers to be real haze man.

                            If i sed i did not know were nev got the seeds when i posted it i did not know now i do see roco i may be a bad speller i may be a pain in the ass to some in this community but what i am is honest basicly 30 years of growing under my belt had no one but my plants teach me about growing do i have all the answears no do i know it all no not even close will i hold all the answears one day no why becouse we never stop lorning.


                              Agree again Hempy, classic jobs of today deserve all my respect. Its very hard to create from originals and have lots of respect for ppl who works originally. Once I was asked if I will work Skunk... my reply was... is already done.. what can I do but make it worse maybe?

                              not many Thais here Hempy... lines we worked were the only seeds available we managed to get and most from mex, colombia or maybe africans brougth by sailors.. I guess, had not names I got with the time so tired of trying Thais... too many hermis, not good climate and so. Southamerican seemed to me not that hermi prone like asiatics. I was lucky instead to smoke some of the best hashes coming here form local US air base guys.. that was great but never found again. Also in late 90's I discovered Holland existed but old sativa lines were not there, only indicas or indica hybrids I am not used to... I guess I belong to the missing sativa age.

                              btw my english skill is not as good and be sure makes me hard to understand you sometimes Bluebeard, excuse us for not so accurate english in some ACE descriptions which could confuse you as u said. Sorry

                              Sam have you ever brougth those worked Hazes or Thais to be grown back in Thailand for instance or in any other highland area of a different country? If so any interesting results to comment?

                              Last edited by charlie garcia; 02-25-2008, 06:19.


                                It is absurd that neville said he got 1969 O Haze seeds from the Haze Bros.
                                #1 Neville first traveled to USA in 86 or 87 at the earliest, the main Haze Brother, R was gone, retired in Mexico by 82 he did not come back for 10 years. He was the one that created O Haze. The second Haze Brother J quit growing O Haze about 1980 and only grew Skunk #1 after that, until he became a reborn christian, then he quit growing, and anyway recently he told me he never met Neville and he certainly did not sell any Haze seeds to him or anyone else ever.
                                #2 The Haze Bros had a falling out in the late 70's and stopped talking to one another, for certain they did not sell seeds as the Haze Bros to anyone, it is ridiculous as well as impossible.
                                Lets be honest Neville got the seeds from me, but he had promised me that he would not make pure Haze and sell them as such, I told him it was fine to make Haze hybrids with other varieties that were not mine.
                                He broke his word and started selling Haze pure and hybrids with my varieties, and I stopped working with him.
                                Maybe he lied to avoid the problems that accompany breaking your word? I can not say, but I know Neville did not meet the Haze Bros and did not get any O Haze seeds from them. Both the Haze Bros were close friends of mine and both were close neighbors for years, J lived a few hundred meters from my house until he departed to Mexico.