The Haze discussion thread

[@hempy]

Hey Hempy I think the advocation for using a male Haze parent is because of what haze brings to the table in a hybrid is well known (to Sam). Unrivaled potency and hybrid vigor. It's a way to theoretically "supercharge" everything in your library. Using various males to the haze females is much more unknown going on the realistic assumption that most are doing more work and observation with the female plants they are tending than the male plants. This is how I interpret it anyways.
Why Nevil advocated for using haze males I'm unsure, is it because that's what he heard from Sam too? I would still like clarification as to what Nevil actually got from Sam. In a line with a majority of plants being female, dude supposedly had three plants with 2 males. Those are some impressive odds. From what I have read, Nevil didn't breed the female haze plant or work with it. How would he know which are the best to use for breeding, males or females, when he only used a handful of plants 2/3 of them male.

You bring up sex linked traits in humans and I can not say what is correct or incorrect this is definitely beyond my current scope but I can't help but point out the mere fact that cannabis plants can be reversed quite easily, female plants turning male and male turning female. I know enough to say I don't know, but these are the things I think when these topics and conversations come up.

Hi SB from what i have read vigor comes from the crossing of 2 unrelated lines.

Heterosis, also called hybrid vigour, the increase in such characteristics as size, growth rate, fertility, and yield of a hybrid organism over those of its parents. Plant and animal breeders exploit heterosis by mating two different pure-bred lines that have certain desirable traits.

Sex linked traits in plants and animal are the same but changes in asexual reproduction, In humans hermaphrodites are sterile were in plants they are not.

These are 2 key points.

The Y chromosome is passed on without recombination, the DNA on that chromosome provides a genetic history of a males paternal ancestral line.

Unfortunately, the X chromosome is short, such that the chance of any signal of recent ancestry on the X decays rather quickly.

That tells me the male carries a genetic history of a males paternal ancestral line and is past down to the males in the next generation of males.

Now the female say in Haze also gets the X from the father and why its a female. The male determines the sex of the offspring and if he passes on his X its female if he passes the Y then its a male. Like i posted before the Male adds 49% the Females adds 51% to the matting.

The X chromosome decays quickly so its ancestral informal must also.

So Haze is a hybrid and males carry the information of the father lines and going by science the male will carry across more of the Haze using a Male haze than you would a female Haze plant to a unrelated line.

 

[Chi13]

The male adds 49% the female adds 51% the males inherits the x from the mother.

From what i understood is if the father passes on the X then you get a female with an X also coming from the mother.

I wish you'd provide links as to where you get this stuff from. How did you arrive at the 49-51% for instance? Percentage of what? That makes no sense if you are talking about chromosomes, cannabis having 10 pairs.

And what do you mean exactly by "genetic history of a males paternal ancestral line"? What does that mean practically? If I cross a male Thai with a female Afghani, I get a cross which usually looks to be combination of both. It doesn't come out looking completely Thai? If I make f'2s I get all sorts of combinations of anything between Thai and Afghan. So what has happened to the "genetic history of a males paternal ancestral line"?

 

[acespicoli]

Definition of homogeneous
1 : of the same or a similar kind or nature
2 : of uniform structure or composition throughout a culturally homogeneous neighborhood
3 : having the property that if each variable is replaced by a constant times that variable the constant can be factored out : having each term of the same degree if all variables are considered a homogeneous equation

the perfect haze regular seed line = ?
the perfect haze fem seed line = ?

If your going to hybrid your library you need a male pollen or rev female pollen

Dominant
Traits that appear to mask (or hide) other traits.

Pedigree
A diagram of a family history used for tracing a trait through several generations.

Recessive
Traits that can be hidden in one generation and then appear in the next.

one example

• A5 Haze »»» NL#5 x Haze A S1
• NL#5
  • USA, Kalifornien »»» Mostly Indica
• Haze A
  • O Haze
    • »»» Mexico x Colombia x Thailand x India
    • Mexico »»» Sativa
    • Colombia »»» Sativa
    • Thailand »»» Sativa
    • India »»» Sativa

A5 Haze is a mostly sativa variety from Karma Genetics and can be cultivated indoors (where the plants will need a flowering time of ±109 days) and outdoors. Karma Genetics' A5 Haze is a THC dominant variety and is/was only available as feminized seeds.
Karma Genetics' A5 Haze Description


The return of the legendary NL Haze A, made in the late 80's by Neville Shoemaker, kept by the Southern Haze Collective for a long time in order to create this great strain.

Genetics: NL#5 x Haze A
Indoor / Outdoor
Flowering Time: 98 - 119 days
Yield: High

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Original Haze is a sativa variety from Cultivators Choice and can be cultivated indoors. Cultivators Choices Original Haze is a THC dominant variety and is/was never available as feminized seeds.
Cultivators Choices Original Haze Description

Sativa, pure (selfed)

All Sativa but is an inconsistent hybrid. 10% are spectacular, 75% good, 10% poor. Truly superior sweet taste. High incredibly clear an up energy. Will not mature outdoors in Holland or northern California.

Height: 2-3 m.
Yield: 100-300 gr.
Harvest: December (Flowers 3 months for quality)

(info from 1985)



Original Haze Lineage / Genealogy

• Original Haze »»» O Haze
• O Haze
  • »»» Mexico x Colombia x Thailand x India
  • Mexico »»» Sativa
  • Colombia »»» Sativa
  • Thai

Bandaide Haze is a mostly sativa variety from unknown origin and can be cultivated indoors (where the plants will need a flowering time of ±100 days) and outdoors. .
What do we know about the unknown/legendary Bandaide Haze?

Description stolen at chronic-connoisseur.com
Bandaid Haze – Bodhi’s Cut
Breeder: Bodhi (intentional breeding project)
Source: Bodhi > Doc D > DocGreenStone
Genetics: Cuban Black Haze x (a5/thai x Mirakel)
Type: Sativa
Flower Time: 100 days
Yield: Average
Difficulty: Expert
Description:
Backstory: There were these seeds that came from this Spanish grower in South Holland, Ronni aka Ronaldo, who was part of the “A5 crew”, who had a Thai pollinate his room. “a5” is shorthand for ‘nl5 x haze A’ different from her sister “c5”, or ‘nl5 x haze C’. These seeds were sent to e.T., who then shared some with Bodhi. Bodhi germinated them in early 2013 and all he got was one male (a5Haze x Mirakel). He doesn’t normally keep males if there are no females to evaluate but he used it anyway to pollinate the Cuban Black Haze cut that he had. The strain was referred to as Piff by Bodhi initially. The beans were shared almost exclusively with Doc D, who after running them selected the Piff #7 and shared a cut of it back with Bodhi. Bodhi had it tested and it came back in the high 20’s. Bodhi and Doc D shared cuts with other forum members here in late 2014 and after some discussion most of us agree that it is actually better than Cuban Black Haze and it also has a shorter flower time (100 days). Everyone, Bodhi, Doc D, e.T and everyone else, refer to this cut now as “Bandaid Haze”. Bodhi coined the term because, “it heals all wounds”.



Bandaide Haze Lineage / Genealogy

• Bandaide Haze »»» Unknown Haze Cuban Black Haze x {(Northern Lights #5 x Haze A) x Thai x Unknown Strain Mirakel}
• (Northern Lights #5 x Haze A) x Thai x Unknown Strain Mirakel
  • Northern Lights #5 x Haze A
    • Northern Lights #5
      • USA, Kalifornien »»» Mostly Indica
    • Haze A
      • O Haze (specified above)
  • Thai »»» Sativa
  • Unknown Strain Mirakel »»» Unknown Strain
• Unknown Haze Cuban Black Haze
  • »»» Mexico x Colombia x Thailand x India
  • Mexico »»» Sativa
  • Colombia »»» Sativa
  • Thailand »»» Sativa
  • India »»» Sativa

Piff is a sativa variety from Brazilian Seed Co. and can be cultivated indoors (where the plants will need a flowering time of ±110 days), outdoors and in the greenhouse. Brazilian Seed Co.s Piff is a THC dominant variety and is/was never available as feminized seeds.
Originally selected from Tom Hills last reproduced purple haze gifted to my partner fritzman back in 2004 . This is a must have strain for preservationists long flowering variety seeds available in reg photo period



Piff Lineage / Genealogy

• Piff »»» Purple Haze 2004 Tom Hill
• Purple Haze 2004 Tom Hill Probably
  • Haze Purple Pheno
    • »»» Mexico x Colombia x Thailand x India
    • Mexico »»» Sativa
    • Colombia »»» Sativa
    • Thailand »»» Sativa
    • India »»» Sativa

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
IMO get a proper specimen that breeds true for what you want
Brainkiller Haze Description



Strong, Powerful, Tall, Impressive, Simply Am-Hazing ! Brainkiller is an almost pure haze and will blow your mind when it comes to effect, potency and yields. Extreme Sativa dominance with very high THC levels (22%) puts you in a place where clarity is hard to find, Far Above the Clouds is the tune title I had to think of when writing this piece..but let’s try and stay on topic (clearly stay away from this strain when “trying” to work). The effect is euphoric, almost psychedelic and I personally have a hard time wiping a jaw breaking grin of my face right now, this strain produces the most uplifting, cheerful high ever.

Briankiller Haze is an ideal strain to pull you out of a mental dip but also very good to temporarily relieve those suffering from chronic pain. Besides all these amazing qualities Brainkiller Haze does also have its down sides, much reported are a very dry mouth so keep a jar of water close as well as dry eyes. It’s not an easy to grow strain either. It will take some time and effort to get to the amazing yields (1100gr/m2) this strain promises. It is very sensitive to pH levels and it takes as long as 14 weeks to finish flowering.. BUT in the end it will most certainly be worth all your efforts.

Genetics: 90% Sativa – 10% Indica
Lineage: Haze (almost pure)
Flower Period: 14 weeks
Harvest month: november
Yield (indoor/outdoor): 600/1100 gr/m2
Stature (indoor/outdoor): Tall and Branchy
THC %: 22
THC Level: Very High
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~
cant wait to see those old seeds Tom
so many people working some great lines should be a good year for HAZE

 

[bsgospel]

The male adds 49% the female adds 51% the males inherits the x from the mother.

From what i understood is if the father passes on the X then you get a female with an X also coming from the mother.

Yeah but what is that quote from? What's the source (Post 11364)?
I have a whole other point to make but I'd like to look at that paper.

I'm just catching up but there were several pages and no one mentioned mitochondrial DNA (anyone see where I'm going with this? )

 

[@hempy]

Yeah but what is that quote from? What's the source (Post 11364)?
I have a whole other point to make but I'd like to look at that paper.

I'm just catching up but there were several pages and no one mentioned mitochondrial DNA (anyone see where I'm going with this? )

What are you on about mate (Post 11364) is from Star.
https://www.icmag.com/forum/marijuan...4#post17952544

Try using google and a little research.

 

[bsgospel]

redacted

 

[bsgospel]

What are you on about mate (Post 11364) is from Star.
https://www.icmag.com/forum/marijuan...4#post17952544

Try using google and a little research.

Homie, that's you. ....unless there's some weird glitch where we're seeing different post numbers.....lemme try to quote again?

 

[bsgospel]

https://www.icmag.com/forum/marijua...aze-discussion-thread?p=17963761#post17963761

What is this from? The quote "Since males receive an X...."?

 

[Raco]

The long flowering time is related to haze females imo...knowing this I'd use haze males

 

[bsgospel]

Found it:
That paper is working towards a very different aim:
"By using Bayes’ theorem to invert these distributions, we can estimate the number of female ancestors between two relatives, giving us details about the genealogical relations between individuals not possible with autosomal data alone." And these speak to human genetics. Not even remotely close to plant genomes. Though the model is still XY, we should not presume to compare human and plant genetics.

 

[Raco]

Anthropomorphism ^ LOL

 

[@hempy]

Found it:
That paper is working towards a very different aim:
"By using Bayes’ theorem to invert these distributions, we can estimate the number of female ancestors between two relatives, giving us details about the genealogical relations between individuals not possible with autosomal data alone." And these speak to human genetics. Not even remotely close to plant genomes. Though the model is still XY, we should not presume to compare human and plant genetics.

"Autosomal" means that the gene in question is located on one of the numbered, or non-sex, chromosomes. "Dominant" means that a single copy of the disease-associated mutation is enough to cause the disease. This is in contrast to a recessive disorder, where two copies of the mutation are needed to cause the disease.

Bayes' theorem,
named after the Reverend Thomas Bayes, describes the probability of an event, based on prior knowledge of conditions that might be related to the event.

Not sure your point or how it relates to the The Y chromosome.

I didn't post that.

 

[acespicoli]

BACK TO THE HAZE FEED LOL - PIFF FROM BSC

 

[Donald Mallard]

The long flowering time is related to haze females imo...knowing this I'd use haze males

its not about the sex , its about the individual plant ,
some guys would argue its always about the sex though .. lol ....

 

[Donald Mallard]

is there a quote from sam saying its best to use male haze in hybrids ??
i dont recall reading it ,
i can see why nevil preferred it though , he only had males to work with ,
he had no option ,
sam says there are no sexual markers in cannabis as yet noted ,
and it doesnt make any difference whether u use a male or female in a combination ,
only that you use a quality or proven plant to my knowledge anyhow ...

 

[Chi13]

How is it incorrect ?.

The Y chromosome is passed on without recombination, the DNA on that chromosome provides a genetic history of a man’s paternal ancestral line.

Do you know what that means ?. It means the male passes on a genetic history of a males paternal ancestral line.

Only Males do that.

Females dont.

Why Sam and Nevil both said use the Haze male to out cross with.

Can I ask again where you got this from? The reason I ask is that you and others have brought up mitochondrial DNA. I am genuinely interested, not shit stirring. From wiki and other sources;
In most multicellular organisms, mtDNA is inherited from the mother (maternally inherited).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_DNA

It’s true that inside every one of our body’s cells there is a roughly equal mix of DNA from our parents. The vast majority of this parental DNA resides in the nucleus of the cell.
The DNA inside of mitochondria (called mtDNA) is unlike the DNA inside the nucleus in that all of it comes from our mothers.
https://dnacenter.com/blog/mitochond...na-mtdna-used/

 

[@hempy]

Can I ask again where you got this from? The reason I ask is that you and others have brought up mitochondrial DNA. From wiki and other sources;
In most multicellular organisms, mtDNA is inherited from the mother (maternally inherited).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_DNA

It’s true that inside every one of our body’s cells there is a roughly equal mix of DNA from our parents. The vast majority of this parental DNA resides in the nucleus of the cell.
The DNA inside of mitochondria (called mtDNA) is unlike the DNA inside the nucleus in that all of it comes from our mothers.
https://dnacenter.com/blog/mitochondrial-dna-mtdna-used/

Research it mate start with line-breeding.

I posted key points to make it assayer .

Key Point 1

The Father passes on the Y chromosome without recombination, the DNA on that chromosome provides a genetic history of a males paternal ancestral line.

Key Point 2

Since males receive an X only from their mothers, a male’s father cannot be an X ancestor. Consequently, a male’s father and all of his ancestors are excluded from the X genealogy (Figure 1). Therefore, females are overrepresented in the X genealogy, and as we go back in one’s genealogy, the fraction of individuals who are possible X ancestors shrinks. This property means that genetic relationships differ on the X compared to the autosomes, a fact that changes the calculation of kinship coefficients on the X (Pinto et al. 2011, 2012) and also has interesting implications for kin-selection models involving the X chromosome (Rice et al. 2008; Fox et al. 2009).

Key Point 3

Unfortunately, the X chromosome is short, such that the chance of any signal of recent ancestry on the X decays rather quickly.

 

[GoatCheese]

is there a quote from sam saying its best to use male haze in hybrids ??
i dont recall reading it ,
i can see why nevil preferred it though , he only had males to work with ,
he had no option ,
sam says there are no sexual markers in cannabis as yet noted ,
and it doesnt make any difference whether u use a male or female in a combination ,
only that you use a quality or proven plant to my knowledge anyhow ...

Here’s Sam talking about male vs. females based on his experiences and even uses Haze hybrids as an example:

I have heard many people/breeders say use a male for this or that reason, or use a female for this or that reason, but I do not think they know what they are talking about.
Are you sure about this? How do you know what a male can contribute unless you take your males and transform them to Female to smoke or analyze them? I have many many many reciprocal crosses, using for example the Haze male X female Thai and then female Haze X male Thai, I see very little differences at all. What is more important is that the males or the females are elite selections that have the ability to give progeny that express the traits you are looking for. Males can be lousy examples of a variety or a elite example, it is easier to tell with females they are elite.
I have used males of my most consistent lines in the hopes that the male used is not a loser, or do a lot of progeny testing to help you find really top males of a given variety. I also transform my males to female to get a better idea what they can be expected to give to progeny.
BTW taste and flavor from the terpenes is normally half way between the two populations regardless if male or female used or even if two females one transformed to male are used as in the case of all female seeds, I see no differences except in sex. Even if you use a male transformed to female to make seeds with a real male or with another female transformed to make pollen, the only differences are sex as all females seeds made with a transformed female for pollen times a real female just do not have a Y. A male transformed to female still has XY it is just not expressed at the time of flowering but it will have the XY for progeny. In fact you can get YY if you use a transformed male to a female and pollinate that with a normal male. 25% YY, 25% XX and 50% XY If the YY are all viable, maybe they are not?
-SamS

 

[Donald Mallard]

Here’s Sam talking about male vs. females based on his experiences and even uses Haze hybrids as an example:

yes i thought he would say that goatcheese ,
its not about the sex of the plant , its about the quality of it and its ability to pass on desired traits ,
not whether u use a male haze or a female , it makes very little if any difference
its about the individual plants , not their sex ...

 

[GoatCheese]

yes i thought he would say that goatcheese ,
its not about the sex of the plant , its about the quality of it and its ability to pass on desired traits ,
not whether u use a male haze or a female , it makes very little if any difference
its about the individual plants , not their sex ...

..and all you’d have to do to see that, is to look into the countless thousands of hybrid seeds that have been on the market for the past decades = you can clearly see traits and phenos from both male and female sides in these many hybrids.
If there is a Blueberry x NL as an example, people will find traits/phenos from both parents; looks, effect and aroma.

Speaking of Blueberry, i wonder how DJ Short gathered that it’s the female that shapes the type of the smell in crossers, while it’s the male who plays a part on how strong the smell is?? Looking at the thousands of hybrids on the market and the stuff i have grown myself, i see aroma traits (and other traits) from males and females contributing just as equally. ..ofcourse some plants are more dominant than others but there are dominant males and dominant females.