The Haze Hybrid Thread

[Piff_cat]

The funny thing is that the clones from the seed plants grew out very different from the original plants that they were cut from ..the chunky ones turned into spiraling spears and the spiraling spears turned into chunky …ones go figure

ive got a similar situation going. seems the outbackviet look and profile changed between the seed pop and clones from a healthy 6 month mother. one of the things i noticed is the cone callyxs i see in very nld 69 haze stay on even in veg or mother room after sexing. although we dont know of any true perrenial cannabis lines its very likely they did/do/can exist. the 3 closest plants to cannabis are all perennial- morus notabilis(wild mulberry in yunnan with the closest enzyme to thc/cbd synthase in plant kingdom) trema orientalis- another member of cannabacae which has become the first non cannabis plant to produce thc, cbd, and cbn in this 2021 thailand research paper. whats really interesting is the dominant cannabinoid is cbn!! which has me on this line of thinking.... thai lines are known to be high in cbn(and cbl). i always chalked the cbn up to a long hot growing season where some of the thc oxidized on the vine leaving cbn behind. but trema orientalis is a perrenial plant live up to 80 years. a plant such as this couldnt possibly stop the majority of its thc from oxidizing into cbn. so what if cbn is the tremas final product target and not thc. either way this study is a big deal especially since thais quality and profile is so mysterious. lastly, japan especially hokkaido cultivated cannabis/hemp year round. yes it was a cycle, but some of the japanese drug strains take 30 weeks to finish and end up with almost 10 percent thc not thca. i think its likely some of the best sativa chemotype/genotypes to be found could gain their magic quality from the remnants of perrenial traits. certainly would explain alot. any 3 of these relatives would go thru tree phrenology as it takes years for a juvenile tree to fully develop all defense/structure/reproduction traits. this would explain how a plant could gain/change quality after mother has had longer period in veg to "mature"

Cannabinoids from inflorescences fractions of Trema orientalis (L.) Blume (Cannabaceae) against human pathogenic bacteria

Cannabinoids; tetrahydrocannabinol (THC), cannabidiol (CBD) and cannabinol (CBN), might show antibacterial activity. Trema orientalis is a species in the Cannabaceae that is closely related to Cannabis through plastome phylogenetic evidence. This species ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Donald Mallard]

with the amount of cannabis grown around the planet ,
if there was such think as perennial , or even biennial cannabis ,
we would have probably seen some examples by now ,
but so far , not a single one ,
even near 30 years of growing in the tropics ,
all manner of strains , thousands apon thousands of plants , ive never seen one ,
some amazing and weird , unusual and rare traits even ,
but not a single plant that would fit in the category of perennial ,
this is an annual , no doubts about it ...

 

[flower~power]

ive got a similar situation going. seems the outbackviet look and profile changed between the seed pop and clones from a healthy 6 month mother. one of the things i noticed is the cone callyxs i see in very nld 69 haze stay on even in veg or mother room after sexing. although we dont know of any true perrenial cannabis lines its very likely they did/do/can exist. the 3 closest plants to cannabis are all perennial- morus notabilis(wild mulberry in yunnan with the closest enzyme to thc/cbd synthase in plant kingdom) trema orientalis- another member of cannabacae which has become the first non cannabis plant to produce thc, cbd, and cbn in this 2021 thailand research paper. whats really interesting is the dominant cannabinoid is cbn!! which has me on this line of thinking.... thai lines are known to be high in cbn(and cbl). i always chalked the cbn up to a long hot growing season where some of the thc oxidized on the vine leaving cbn behind. but trema orientalis is a perrenial plant live up to 80 years. a plant such as this couldnt possibly stop the majority of its thc from oxidizing into cbn. so what if cbn is the tremas final product target and not thc. either way this study is a big deal especially since thais quality and profile is so mysterious. lastly, japan especially hokkaido cultivated cannabis/hemp year round. yes it was a cycle, but some of the japanese drug strains take 30 weeks to finish and end up with almost 10 percent thc not thca. i think its likely some of the best sativa chemotype/genotypes to be found could gain their magic quality from the remnants of perrenial traits. certainly would explain alot. any 3 of these relatives would go thru tree phrenology as it takes years for a juvenile tree to fully develop all defense/structure/reproduction traits. this would explain how a plant could gain/change quality after mother has had longer period in veg to "mature"

Cannabinoids from inflorescences fractions of Trema orientalis (L.) Blume (Cannabaceae) against human pathogenic bacteria

Cannabinoids; tetrahydrocannabinol (THC), cannabidiol (CBD) and cannabinol (CBN), might show antibacterial activity. Trema orientalis is a species in the Cannabaceae that is closely related to Cannabis through plastome phylogenetic evidence. This species ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

View attachment 18775106
View attachment 18775105

View attachment 18775107

View attachment 18775104

If Only I was at your level of education I could understand a lot more about what you have been contributing

 

[Yo Sammy]

It

with the amount of cannabis grown around the planet ,
if there was such think as perennial , or even biennial cannabis ,
we would have probably seen some examples by now ,
but so far , not a single one ,
even near 30 years of growing in the tropics ,
all manner of strains , thousands apon thousands of plants , ive never seen one ,
some amazing and weird , unusual and rare traits even ,
but not a single plant that would fit in the category of perennial ,
this is an annual , no doubts about it ...

Prolly could categorise this as extremely rare & unique, almost or actual magic happening. Guess good vibes resonate strong

 

[gumzgi]

haze hibrids different plants @JohnnyChicago

 

[Sub24ox7]

Pan-o-haze from @JohnnyChicago

 

[funkyhorse]

About this perennial thing subject
In the tropics I think it is not possible, you get at most 11/13 photoperiod and you cannot reveg plants naturally. But around lat 30 and higher latitudes it is possible if you have a proper environment with certain genetics you can have annual plants
I always leave the lower branches of the plants I chop to see how they behave and if they survive winter
At the colder GH, this year I obtained the first plant to reveg and in fact it could be at least annual
This is Ot1 Purple Haze x Meao Thai PH pheno. Very resilient plant, it survived temperatures of close to 0C, coldest winter in 40 years, it is making seed and having new veg growth

I tried the new GH and the difference is huge, I have better temperatures and it was easy for Mangobiche to survive winter and come back
Yesterday was a foggy day but you can see Mangobiche back to veg.

Both plants will flower at the end of march, if I let them grow by then they will be monsters
I think in Perth, Adelaide, Sidney in greenhouses and protected microclimates you can get the seed plants to grow more than one year

 

[Bmac1]

Chocolope

Sour Strawberry Haze

GTH#1 (plants 1 and 5 were males and were culled)

 

[Piff_cat]

its not about arguing if perennial cannabis exists or did exist. its about the influence of cannabis closest relatives, all of whome are perrenials.
the goals and metabolism of a non annual plant are completly different. they have much more complicated maturation process from juveniles to adults which take place over years. we know how cannabis creates cannabinoids but we still have 0 idea why aside from uv connections.

the most important part of this equation is lignin composition, synthesis capabilities, and creating a defense system which in addition to all the challenges an annual plant will face and adding the necessity to survive thru the winter. this schematic of trema orientalis shows a direct example of perrenial traits influencing secondary metabolite profiles. lignin is created to strengthen the outer cell wall against fungi/bacteria, humidity. it is made up of 3 alcohols and there are different configurations between gymnosperms(like pine trees) and angiosperms. however its been found that haze and other sativas actually have a lignin alcohol makeup closer to gymnosperms. this is due to an increase in the G alcohol. this explains why some of these plants appear to have "bark"

the bark of trema orientalis(closest plant relation to cannabis and first plant found with thc other then cannabis). trema is very high in tannins which are used to tan leather. it has bark because its a perrenial and needs extra protection. now leather tones are synonymous with particular haze A progeny profile which nev selected for. nev used hempys 78 tia in outback because it had the leather/liver profile he was searching for. so it makes alot of sense that this trema plant with thc and leather tones is native to thailand/vietnam/phillipines.
not only does trema produce cannabinoids, the main creation is CBN. once again, thai cannabis has above average levels of cbn. another specific link to thai cannabis. but once foreign germplasm is mixed high energy requiring traits like bark are dumped when no longer "needed.". as the perrenial traits are lost by outcrossing to a non-perrenia relicl trait type the leather profile dissapears along with the silenced conservered organ(bark) the metabolites created for the bark become obsolete

a second example would be the creation of chromene cannabinoids. in this case, lepidote rhoddodendrons contain the full suite of cbc and its derivatives in their leaves, stem, and bark. their trichomes are refered to as scales. and their purpose is to protect and regulate the stomata underneath leaves. controlling the in/out gas flow along with protection from physical danger. this is the best visual example of a conserved trait being lost.

northeast asia landraces have the most chromene cananbinoids by far. japan, korea, ne china, vietnam even a couple lines in siberia. thanks to piffcoast farms detailed cannabinoid and terpene test results, we see 69 haze progeny is thru the roof when it comes to cbc,cbt, and cbl. its visually apparent becasue the underneath of sugar leaves are completely covered in the sessile trichomes cbc is created in. meaning no stalks mostly on stems or leaves and resemble a pillow. when both parents have these cbc organs and synthases in tack the visual result is amazing. however an outcross to aline without cbc type organs, the high cbc and sessile trikes will dissapear in another generation or two if new selections are not intervened. here is a great example of cbc and just haze breeding in general- nevils wreck

arcata trainwreck is one of the few non haze lines found in the ancestral "se asian clade" moonshine did a big male hunt using seeds from hazy lady in the dam. he selected the most nld late flowering sticky male he could find. this initial outcross is very similar to the outback stratedgy since trainwreck uses an old lowland thai

e32 trainwreck

nevils wreck female

moonshine haze = amnesia x nevil wreck
amnesia female-

moonshine haze female-

somali taxi ride- malawi x nevil wreck

zomia squirrel tail-

this is a great shot as it shows you how the top sugar leaves are covered in cbc trichomes. losing these chromene cannabinoid traits by outcrossing or even trimming them off must have a serious negative effect for these new hybrids. cbc potentiates thc and has shown marked anti depressant qualities.

this is why true open source pedigrees are so important for haze. and how nevils 1 to 1 breeding and notation left us with the tools for exploration of throwback haze phenotypes.

 

[GrandpaMillenial]

its not about arguing if perennial cannabis exists or did exist. its about the influence of cannabis closest relatives, all of whome are perrenials.
the goals and metabolism of a non annual plant are completly different. they have much more complicated maturation process from juveniles to adults which take place over years. we know how cannabis creates cannabinoids but we still have 0 idea why aside from uv connections.

the most important part of this equation is lignin composition, synthesis capabilities, and creating a defense system which in addition to all the challenges an annual plant will face and adding the necessity to survive thru the winter. this schematic of trema orientalis shows a direct example of perrenial traits influencing secondary metabolite profiles. lignin is created to strengthen the outer cell wall against fungi/bacteria, humidity. it is made up of 3 alcohols and there are different configurations between gymnosperms(like pine trees) and angiosperms. however its been found that haze and other sativas actually have a lignin alcohol makeup closer to gymnosperms. this is due to an increase in the G alcohol. this explains why some of these plants appear to have "bark"

the bark of trema orientalis(closest plant relation to cannabis and first plant found with thc other then cannabis). trema is very high in tannins which are used to tan leather. it has bark because its a perrenial and needs extra protection. now leather tones are synonymous with particular haze A progeny profile which nev selected for. nev used hempys 78 tia in outback because it had the leather/liver profile he was searching for. so it makes alot of sense that this trema plant with thc and leather tones is native to thailand/vietnam/phillipines.
not only does trema produce cannabinoids, the main creation is CBN. once again, thai cannabis has above average levels of cbn. another specific link to thai cannabis. but once foreign germplasm is mixed high energy requiring traits like bark are dumped when no longer "needed.". as the perrenial traits are lost by outcrossing to a non-perrenia relicl trait type the leather profile dissapears along with the silenced conservered organ(bark) the metabolites created for the bark become obsolete

View attachment 18776334


a second example would be the creation of chromene cannabinoids. in this case, lepidote rhoddodendrons contain the full suite of cbc and its derivatives in their leaves, stem, and bark. their trichomes are refered to as scales. and their purpose is to protect and regulate the stomata underneath leaves. controlling the in/out gas flow along with protection from physical danger. this is the best visual example of a conserved trait being lost.

northeast asia landraces have the most chromene cananbinoids by far. japan, korea, ne china, vietnam even a couple lines in siberia. thanks to piffcoast farms detailed cannabinoid and terpene test results, we see 69 haze progeny is thru the roof when it comes to cbc,cbt, and cbl. its visually apparent becasue the underneath of sugar leaves are completely covered in the sessile trichomes cbc is created in. meaning no stalks mostly on stems or leaves and resemble a pillow. when both parents have these cbc organs and synthases in tack the visual result is amazing. however an outcross to aline without cbc type organs, the high cbc and sessile trikes will dissapear in another generation or two if new selections are not intervened. here is a great example of cbc and just haze breeding in general- nevils wreck

arcata trainwreck is one of the few non haze lines found in the ancestral "se asian clade" moonshine did a big male hunt using seeds from hazy lady in the dam. he selected the most nld late flowering sticky male he could find. this initial outcross is very similar to the outback stratedgy since trainwreck uses an old lowland thai View attachment 18776380


e32 trainwreck
View attachment 18776350
View attachment 18776353


nevils wreck female
View attachment 18776354
moonshine haze = amnesia x nevil wreck
amnesia female-


View attachment 18776355

moonshine haze female-

View attachment 18776379
View attachment 18776358



somali taxi ride- malawi x nevil wreck
View attachment 18776377


zomia squirrel tail-

View attachment 18776361
this is a great shot as it shows you how the top sugar leaves are covered in cbc trichomes. losing these chromene cannabinoid traits by outcrossing or even trimming them off must have a serious negative effect for these new hybrids. cbc potentiates thc and has shown marked anti depressant qualities.

this is why true open source pedigrees are so important for haze. and how nevils 1 to 1 breeding and notation left us with the tools for exploration of throwback haze phenotypes.

I smoked my squirrel tail, it was borderline trippy. It was like the onset of taking mushrooms, lights and sound were both more vivid. Racey and a bit anxious, my fiancé took me shopping for halloween outfits for the kids, it was a bit unsettling being around people. It was very clear, not really a mood lifter, cant wait to see what they can do next time around, hopefully I can take them further next time.

edit:
also, Ive seen plants chopped 2inches from the ground and then left in the garage or basement just throw out new leaves from the stem, ive seen that a couple times. They dont have any “secondary woody growth” or regrow subsoil from a root ball.

but they are many instances where they go beyond what a typical annual can do

 

[Piff_cat]

@RingtailCanyon sent me a great selection of haze crosses he made searching for church. I germinated some mango haze selection female x mango haze ibl and found some incredible polyploid mutant.. very similar to Greenspoon pheno with cad red xylem wild traits

 

[AmanteSativo]

hi guys, what do you think about Expert haze by Expert seeds? I have grown 2 seeds and I have loved both phenotypes although they are very different from each other, but haze effect, it felt good the difference from the indica.
involuntarily the two plants were pollinated by a female blueberry herma.I gave birth to the seeds and now they are almost 50 days of flowering, the flowers have a very strong smell, and above all it has the same smell as the original Expert haze

---

 

[RandyCalifornia]

Demon Latcher, OaxacanXOriginal Haze 17 weeks

 

[Raho]

hi guys, what do you think about Expert haze by Expert seeds? I have grown 2 seeds and I have loved both phenotypes although they are very different from each other, but haze effect, it felt good the difference from the indica.
involuntarily the two plants were pollinated by a female blueberry herma.I gave birth to the seeds and now they are almost 50 days of flowering, the flowers have a very strong smell, and above all it has the same smell as the original Expert haze

View attachment 18777080 View attachment 18777081 View attachment 18777082

---

Hi AS,
That can you tell us about "Expert Haze" . . . what do "Expert Seeds" say about it?
I've never heard of it before.
Without knowing exactly what it was outcrossed with, it looks like a Chem or OG hybrid of some kind from the pic.

Thanks!

 

[willydread]

---

@Raho it SHOULD be (in these cases the conditional is a must), it should be one of the thousand amnesia selections made by the Spanish sb ....

 

[willydread]

@Raho it SHOULD be (in these cases the conditional is a must), it should be one of the thousand amnesia selections made by the Spanish sb ....

My mistake, after some research I discovered that expert haze should be arijan haze #3, so it's a s1 (?) of a fem seed ....

https://en.seedfinder.eu/strain-info/Expert_Haze/Expert_Seeds/

 

[Piff_cat]

my favorite outback vietnam fenotrigo pheno. this plant has resin like sandpaper. huge trichome heads along with almost golden calyx. all of the colas were all dreadlock foxtails. i think its best example of dj9 work with outback vietnam and hoping to use her for plentiful outcrosses and such ll. she actually finished first at 12.5 weeks from seed. had the narrowest razor blade fan leaves but it wasnt until bud growth started how special the flower would be. id like tp design a single cola sea of green haze hybrid baseball bats. with plant counts becoming a thing of the past large number of smaller plants has alot of advantages. have all nice furry buds needing very little veg .

 

[Raho]

My mistake, after some research I discovered that expert haze should be arijan haze #3, so it's a s1 (?) of a fem seed ....
View attachment 18777392
https://en.seedfinder.eu/strain-info/Expert_Haze/Expert_Seeds/

The pic certainly doesn't look like the pedigree suggests does it my friend? (Laos x oHaze)

I mean, this is the Haze Hybrid thread, so Indy/Sat looking plants are to be expected, but this Expert Haze is supposed to be all narrow leaf.

@AmanteSativo plant:

The pics from @AmanteSativo look very nice. Better than anything on seed finder, but also very wide leaf (NL?) dom phenos.

If you skip past the "Expert" breeders info and go to the source at Greenhouse, you can see in their own pic that Arjans #3 is not what they say it is.
Weird too because their other "Arjan's" haze lines seem pretty honest about basically making hybrids with Shanti's seeds. Funny I never paid attention to any of those lines.

The picture on the Greenhouse website looks like an NL dom 5hzC x some kind of sativa.

Taking that to F2 could create some wild diversity though, and with them claiming that it's a 10 week sativa . . . well you know that the pheno they selected to reverse and sell didn't look like the pic they show in the ad.
Greenhouse seeds web store:

I really resent being lied to by seed makers.
So weird how "Expert" describe the line as if they made the cross themselves.
Here's how the "Experts" describe "their" work:
======================================

Expert Haze is a cross between our best Haze with Laotian genetics to create a proper Sativa but with a relatively short flowering cycle, making it ideal for indoors or outdoors, even in northern European climes. A medium-sized, well-branched plant that is very flexible, making it ideal for SOG or SCROG systems. Produces a large central bud surrounded by smaller satellite buds in long Sativa tails that are hard, compact and full of resin glands. We would recommend staking or tutoring as the weight of the buds may break the branches. An incense and fine hardwood taste with fruity notes. A euphoric and very psychoactive effect.​

​

Genetic Background: 10% Indica 90%Sativa​

Lineage: Haze x Laos​

Yield Indoor: 550-650 g/m2​

Yield Outdoor: 800-900 g/plant​

Flowering Time: 65-70 days​

Harvest Month: October​

THC: 21%​

The pic from Expert on seed finder looks like an over-fertilized skunk #1 hybrid to me:

In the end, the most important thing is that @AmanteSativo is happy with the smoke he got.
I'd like to hear about those tastes and effects from him as I'm sure they will be more useful than the obviously deceptive Greenhouse or "Expert Seeds" info.

 

[willydread]

The pic certainly doesn't look like the pedigree suggests does it my friend? (Laos x oHaze)

I mean, this is the Haze Hybrid thread, so Indy/Sat looking plants are to be expected, but this Expert Haze is supposed to be all narrow leaf.

@AmanteSativo plant:

The pics from @AmanteSativo look very nice. Better than anything on seed finder, but also very wide leaf (NL?) dom phenos.

If you skip past the "Expert" breeders info and go to the source at Greenhouse, you can see in their own pic that Arjans #3 is not what they say it is.
Weird too because their other "Arjan's" haze lines seem pretty honest about basically making hybrids with Shanti's seeds. Funny I never paid attention to any of those lines.

The picture on the Greenhouse website looks like an NL dom 5hzC x some kind of sativa.

Taking that to F2 could create some wild diversity though, and with them claiming that it's a 10 week sativa . . . well you know that the pheno they selected to reverse and sell didn't look like the pic they show in the ad.
Greenhouse seeds web store:
View attachment 18777536

I really resent being lied to by seed makers.
So weird how "Expert" describe the line as if they made the cross themselves.
Here's how the "Experts" describe "their" work:
======================================

Expert Haze is a cross between our best Haze with Laotian genetics to create a proper Sativa but with a relatively short flowering cycle, making it ideal for indoors or outdoors, even in northern European climes. A medium-sized, well-branched plant that is very flexible, making it ideal for SOG or SCROG systems. Produces a large central bud surrounded by smaller satellite buds in long Sativa tails that are hard, compact and full of resin glands. We would recommend staking or tutoring as the weight of the buds may break the branches. An incense and fine hardwood taste with fruity notes. A euphoric and very psychoactive effect.​

​

Genetic Background: 10% Indica 90%Sativa​

Lineage: Haze x Laos​

Yield Indoor: 550-650 g/m2​

Yield Outdoor: 800-900 g/plant​

Flowering Time: 65-70 days​

Harvest Month: October​

THC: 21%​

The pic from Expert on seed finder looks like an over-fertilized skunk #1 hybrid to me:
View attachment 18777537


In the end, the most important thing is that @AmanteSativo is happy with the smoke he got.
I'd like to hear about those tastes and effects from him as I'm sure they will be more useful than the obviously deceptive Greenhouse or "Expert Seeds" info.

Well, to be hybrid it's hybrid, it probably contains haze, so that's where it belongs ... LOL
You know me enough to know what I think of ghs (for better or for worse), that strain is a classic example of a wrong lineage ...
On the other hand, many (but not all) Spanish seedbanks are repeating the same mistakes made 20/30 years ago in the Netherlands, same varieties renamed a hundred times and / or feminized ...
But the important thing is that expert haze is a fantastic plant ....

 

[F2F]

this plant has resin like sandpaper. huge trichome heads along with almost golden calyx.

Hiya Piff, is that cured or newly chopped?

Seeing some similarities of your plant with these Viet Black genetics [ (KA5xVB)xVB ].

2021 cured, 2022 fresh

Peace
F2F