Am I waiting too late to transplant?

[Guest]

In my various trials it's become obvious that seed starts in smaller containers completely lag behind starts in larger containers, to the point that my delayed awareness + transplant shock makes starting in small pots completely counter productive if not disastrous.

This goes against everything I've read, where most growers seem to intentionally bind their roots. My roots never look that impressive at transplant, and I've seen [coco coir] growers keep plants in solo cups so long that they actually push themselves out of the cup. I'm not in coco and not feeding liquids or watering twice a day, but I can't fathom the situations being that different from each other.

My background is outdoor in-ground (free range rhizo) growing, and I'm currently trying to figure out how to grow coco sized plants in realistic sized containers, and I'm wondering if I'm actually waiting too long to transplant. I don't know any indoor growers and only have online photos to go by, which always deceive me. So far, the only problem I have starting in large pots is that I sometimes loose the seed. Since soaking the entire medium instead of keeping a wet spot, I've not had that problem.


​​​​​​So my question is, is transplanting really beneficial in organic soil, and can someone show me examples of when to transplant? All my plants started in large pots (1 to 10 gallon) maintain coteyledons while all my starts in solo cups lose them and the single blade fans very quickly. So, am I waiting too long to transplant and completely stunting my plants waiting for them to shoot massive roots out the drain holes? My roots reach the bottom fairly quickly, but they never try to escape or push the plant out of the cup [like I've seen in coco/chemical grows].

Thanks for any input, Bholocaust

 

[moses wellfleet]

I was growing in 15 gallon totes once upon a time. I up potted 4 times along the way allowing root binding each time.

The theory was to encourage a vigorous root ball to form. If the clone had gone straight into the 15 gal roots would have migrated directly to the walls and wrapped round and round the edge of the container with little root mass in the center.

 

[Switcher56]

I was growing in 15 gallon totes once upon a time. I up potted 4 times along the way allowing root binding each time.

The theory was to encourage a vigorous root ball to form. If the clone had gone straight into the 15 gal roots would have migrated directly to the walls and wrapped round and round the edge of the container with little root mass in the center.

Cloth pots do this remarkably well

 

[moses wellfleet]

Before such technology was a reality

 

[Switcher56]

What happens below the soil IMHO is more important than what goes on above. because that is where everything starts

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9J8Dx3Yw9wM

 

[flylowgethigh]

Mr. Switcher, how much perlite are you using in that soil? It looked like a lot.

I just read that vermeculite has a lot higher CEC, and think it may want a more prominent place at the table in my soil.

 

[Gaussamer]

The only real concern with an oversized pot is overwatering. You also won't be able to get as much water over the roots as a smaller (appropriately sized) pot because of the more drawn-out watering schedule. Your risk of pests and infection goes through the roof as well due to the constantly warm wet parts of the soil which the plant won't utilize for possibly weeks.

Now in smaller pots, if you want the plants to keep on trucking without severe transplant shock don't wait until you have roots circling the bottom of the pot. Certain strains can have wildly different root proportions and growth rates, so it's not easy to give you a boilerplate direction on this. Worst case scenario if you wait a little too long is the plants slow down for a minute. Wait way too long and root stress can cause herms during flower and all kinds of other nightmare conditions which basically all come down to the same scenarios which overwatering invite at any point. My rule of thumb is I transplant when the leaves are about 1/3 beyond the edge of the pot they are in or the main stem gets taller than the pot is deep, but like I said it's very heavily dependant on genetics sometimes.

 

[Guest]

Thanks, I've got some ideas now, I'm having troubles dialing in a seedling/clone stage mix and was wondering if everything I read about the benefit of transplanting/root binding only applied to fertigated plants opposed to soil-fed. Looks like nutrient density is indeed the issue. I don't see a lot of organic growers perpetually feeding/top dressing in small pots, I guess it's just as feasible as with liquid/coco style grows though?


Heres my latest experiment. I wanted to see if heavy watering (left) or light watering (right) showed drastic difference.

The smaller more compact plants closest to the camera are about a week older than the ones in the back. The ones in the back were started in those pots while the smaller ones were just transplanted from yogurt cups. My plants in smaller pots are simply running out of nutrients before they're ready for transplant. Time to dial in my seedling mix in!

 

[Three Berries]

Transplanted today and had waited too long. I went from 16oz to 1 gallon and it was only in the one gallon one 3 weeks. I think I'll go straight into the one gallon pot with the seeds and eliminate a transplant.

First is 8 weeks and second is 6 weeks.

 

[Creeperpark]

One important reason to up-pott is to give the plants enough dry time that equals the wet time. If a plant has to be watered every day there will be limited wet to dry cycles. Where a larger container can hold water longer, the plants have enough time to get what they need before the soil dries. Since a large part of what a plant need comes from the atmosphere the "air we breathe" dry time is just as important. If I can balance the wet to dry within three days the plants seem to do the best.

When it comes to any additions of perlite or vermiculite the goal is to add enough to the substrate to maintain a 3-day wet to-dry cycle. Container size matters

 

[Three Berries]

I think an even moisture level is best. When soil dries, pH goes down.

 

[Ca++]

@Creeperpark
Soil seems to need the longer wet periods to work. When dry, it's activity is low. The longer wet periods need decent drainage, to ensure some air is present literally straight after watering.
In straight coco peat, I find 3 days worth of water, applied till runoff, is too wet. The coco gets waterlogged when you fertigate, and must drink before air can get in. I have seem many coco plants stall when potted up and waterlogged with 3 days supply.
I like to fertigate every 24 hours. If they are 6- 18 hours away from wilting when they get their daily, I feel they are at their best. Though that's not a soil, it's coco or peat mixes, where I'm fertigating not watering.

 

[VerdantGreen]

I haven't got the space to have my plants in big pots all the way from seed and thats fine because i think regular, timely up-potting is better anyway and you end up with more root mass overall...
get used to tipping the pot upside down and holding the plant + soil upside down on the palm of your hand, take the pot off and have a look. you want there to be enough roots to easily hold the soil + rootball together but you don't really want roots to be layered on top of ech other with no soil inbetween.
If you get it right you can ride a wave of growth that occurs as the roots inhabit the new soil and move up to the next pot before the plant stalls through rootbinding.
a skill worth learning. grow other stuff from seed like tomatoes if you can too as that will build your experience.

I'll try and take some pics but its hard with the plant upside down in one hand and the camera in the other !

NB: 'wet' and 'dry' are relative terms and so hard to discuss. you don't want your soil to get drier than 'damp' imo...
another good skill in all but huge pots is to learn to weigh them by hand ( 'shucking' ) to judge how much water is in the soil. a properly dry pot weighs bugger all !

VG

 

[Three Berries]

I use the green stick in the dirt moisture meter. Bought three so I'd have at least two that read the same.

But I try and stay above 7 out of 10 on the scale. If it's half way it's too dry for me.

 

[Somatek]

Thanks, I've got some ideas now, I'm having troubles dialing in a seedling/clone stage mix and was wondering if everything I read about the benefit of transplanting/root binding only applied to fertigated plants opposed to soil-fed. Looks like nutrient density is indeed the issue. I don't see a lot of organic growers perpetually feeding/top dressing in small pots, I guess it's just as feasible as with liquid/coco style grows though?

A big benefit of smaller plants specifically relates to using water soluble fertilizers so you have more control over feeding them, which is why you can grow big plants with big roots in small pots. If you're relying on decomposition in organic soil then it's counter productive, bigger pots will have a more consistently maintained moisture level with is better for microbes, which in turn increase nutrient availability.

That being said I remember CamelJoeGrows back on CW had gorgeous plants basically just using worm castings and bat guano top dressed in 5 gal buckets that were repotted from 1 to 3 gal if I remember correctly. Which is closer to hydroponics then organic growing as both castings and guano have very water soluble nutrients, so it definitely is possible if you're using top dressings that have a high bioavailability.

 

[Three Berries]

What about sugar?

I forgot to mention I dust the roots with some rooting Mycorrhizae and added a 1/2 tablespoon of some langbeinite to the new soil.

 

[Creeperpark]

I think an even moisture level is best. When soil dries, pH goes down.

Not when calcium is present the pH goes up.

 

[Three Berries]

Not when calcium is present the pH goes up.

How is that?

 

[Creeperpark]

How is that?

Because hydroxyl content always overpowers hydrogen content when it comes to pH dominance.

 

[Three Berries]

Because hydroxyl content always overpowers hydrogen content when it comes to pH dominance.

What happens to Ca++ when -OH combines with it? I've seen this happen with CaCl in a mixture and pH uped with KOH.

Carbonates on the other hand do offer some buffering.