Appreciate your posts,as always.
Always food for thought
Always food for thought
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Flowering Cool and Dry for Premium Smoking Quality Cannabis
- Thread starter Douglas.Curtis
- Start date
just found this thread..... interesting reading
just found this thread..... interesting reading
My harvest/plants always come out better in the winter.
I'm in Dallas and the summer the temps get too high with the lights on. (2 600watt HPS)I started putting ice in the res.( a gallon of ice/25 gal rez) seems to help. I'm also planning on adding a 100 watt metal halide to one of the lights.
This year I got some sativas, hoping they do better in the summer.
good thread...…...……….
just found this thread..... interesting reading
My harvest/plants always come out better in the winter.
I'm in Dallas and the summer the temps get too high with the lights on. (2 600watt HPS)I started putting ice in the res.( a gallon of ice/25 gal rez) seems to help. I'm also planning on adding a 100 watt metal halide to one of the lights.This year I got some sativas, hoping they do better in the summer.
good thread...…...……….
Douglas.Curtis
Autistic Diplomat in Training
So many thoughts in my head on this topic, I too am digging this thread. Thanks everyone. 
I've mainly used HPS through the years, and I've also worked with CFLs and SILs. Now I have a couple LEDs I've begun using. Without UV being a consideration, I believe the general spectrum is most important for physical development.
I 'Like' the HPS type flower formations from cannabis. I am not a fan of leaf, so I really prefer to grow low-leaf flowers. I've seen many spectrums over the years which grow very leafy flowers. Without the reds being close to HPS, the quality seems sub-par for me. Just more of the stem and leaf which I don't want.
I have a Mars Hydro TSW-2000 LED, and the spectrum definitely produces the structures I like. The same strain looked physically the same under HPS and the TSW. Closely enough, neither I nor anyone else could tell which was which, once the flowers were in the jar.
This off the shelf CFL/SIL comparison thread has many examples of different spectrums being used. You'll notice the 3200K, 3000K, and 2700K spectrums producing the lowest leaf to flower ratios.
Dallas is indeed a hot place for growing.
Do any of you run a sealed room cool and dry, and what type of equipment does this take? I have zero experience with de-humidification equipment, and only basic experience with a/c. Is it possible to get 15%RH/68F air from a mini-split with built in de-huey? In Dallas, in the middle of summer?
I do know UV can stimulate additional production of anthocyanins, which is great for cold resistance. They're generally the darker blue/purple colors. At this point I have not played with UV yet, though I have plans in the works to do so.
I've mainly used HPS through the years, and I've also worked with CFLs and SILs. Now I have a couple LEDs I've begun using. Without UV being a consideration, I believe the general spectrum is most important for physical development.
I 'Like' the HPS type flower formations from cannabis. I am not a fan of leaf, so I really prefer to grow low-leaf flowers. I've seen many spectrums over the years which grow very leafy flowers. Without the reds being close to HPS, the quality seems sub-par for me. Just more of the stem and leaf which I don't want.
I have a Mars Hydro TSW-2000 LED, and the spectrum definitely produces the structures I like. The same strain looked physically the same under HPS and the TSW. Closely enough, neither I nor anyone else could tell which was which, once the flowers were in the jar.
This off the shelf CFL/SIL comparison thread has many examples of different spectrums being used. You'll notice the 3200K, 3000K, and 2700K spectrums producing the lowest leaf to flower ratios.
The humidity is usually very high in Dallas during the winter, yes? Have you considered switching to LEDs to reduce heat loads?My harvest/plants always come out better in the winter.
Dallas is indeed a hot place for growing.Do any of you run a sealed room cool and dry, and what type of equipment does this take? I have zero experience with de-humidification equipment, and only basic experience with a/c. Is it possible to get 15%RH/68F air from a mini-split with built in de-huey? In Dallas, in the middle of summer?
Douglas.Curtis
Autistic Diplomat in Training
And we were having such a nice discussion, good job.
So, to get this straight, your theory is plant based nutrients are the magic bullet? How does this keep the flower structure to single stem? Does it keep the thickness of the leaves super thin, or are they fat and puffy? What's the frangibility like?
Are we talking fermented plant extracts? KNF and similar? (this IS a discussion thread.
)Would you be so kind as to elaborate on your definition of 'bad resin profiles,' and how cool and dry is a band aid? I'm actually interested in the meat behind your statement, so I can better understand where you're coming from.
Appreciate your input.
I did some experimenting with UV, Although minimally and I have no labs to verify the results, I feel like the benefits are outweighed by the drawbacks.
With my test I had no lab results to compare and be 100% certain, but what I did was run the same conditions strains and feeding schedule. What I noticed was that it seemed to induce more trichome development.
However I'd like to note that I was never able to get the same complex terpene profiles that usually were present without UV supplementation. I did full cycles and I tried cycles where I discontinued the uv for the final weeks.
I feel like the uv might have damaged more complex terpenes, I would really like to repeat the same type of experiment with lab results to confirm.
With my test I had no lab results to compare and be 100% certain, but what I did was run the same conditions strains and feeding schedule. What I noticed was that it seemed to induce more trichome development.
However I'd like to note that I was never able to get the same complex terpene profiles that usually were present without UV supplementation. I did full cycles and I tried cycles where I discontinued the uv for the final weeks.
I feel like the uv might have damaged more complex terpenes, I would really like to repeat the same type of experiment with lab results to confirm.
Douglas.Curtis
Autistic Diplomat in Training
Very interesting, and thanks for sharing this.
My confirmation bias immediately jumps to my monoterpene theory again. My belief is when monoterpenes are present for long enough periods of time, they polymerize with other terpenes. This increases their vape temp and complexity of flavor/aroma.
When the room is too hot, you lose some monoterpenes rather quickly. When UV is present, I'm guessing it's breaking down monoterpenes as well. Same result, which are less complex terpene profiles at harvest time.
10 years from now, cannabis testing will be super cheap, available to any Joe Schmoe, and we'll already know the answers to all this. lol
Veggia farmer
Well-known member
DC, In the VPD thread you talked about spectrum being variabel to get leafy buds? Do you mean a spectrum produce leafy, in a hotter and cooler environment, or that a spectrum causes leafy buds just when its cooler? Why I ask is because I have used the same bulbs when the room was cooler and hotter, but when it was cooler I believe the buds har more leaves..
As for veganic, I have studied a lot on the subject because I wanted a farm not dependent on animal manure. I fokus on the greens. Yes, it completely doable, in the form that we can feed the plants and soil with just "vegan" stuff, but if we looker deeper into the soil and root biology we can se that plants aren`t vegans... They eat small, small living creatures.. Dont remember there names, but I learned that from one teacher and she showed me the book about it.. Its many years ago, so I cant contribute so much more info on that subject..
As for veganic, I have studied a lot on the subject because I wanted a farm not dependent on animal manure. I fokus on the greens. Yes, it completely doable, in the form that we can feed the plants and soil with just "vegan" stuff, but if we looker deeper into the soil and root biology we can se that plants aren`t vegans... They eat small, small living creatures.. Dont remember there names, but I learned that from one teacher and she showed me the book about it.. Its many years ago, so I cant contribute so much more info on that subject..
Douglas.Curtis
Autistic Diplomat in Training
Blurple lighting, the deep blue and red without the whites and greens, grows leafy flowers. Temp/Rh considerations are minor factors in leaf development, as far as I'm aware. I'm so happy to see the new white LED generation of lights. Photo after blurple photo of super leafy cannabis, all over the net for years now.
As for veganics it's another form of providing npk and micros. There is no 'magic bullet' for cannabis, it's a combination of everything and the proper application of it all. My goal is to end up with a 'cannabis' plant, and not some plant full of 'stuff' you like the flavor of. LOTS of people describe moldy cannabis as 'earthy' and attribute it to 'organic' cannabis, and we're not talking the earthy smelling terpene profiles here. The finest bat-guanos on earth have a distinct flavor/smell to them, and so does cannabis which is over amended with it. Many growers consistently overfeed their organic plants to extreme excess, and are perfectly delighted with the heavy 'organic amendment' flavors it gives flowers.
Cannabis tastes awesome, all by itself without boosters and what-not. Adding humics/fulvics and other beneficial elements/molecules the plant can convert only makes things better, as long as the plant uses ALL of it. I've had many people call my cannabis the most flavorful and complex 'organic' cannabis they've seen. Over half the time it was only MaxiBloom, epsom and pH up. Nothing fancy, simply giving the plant the NPK/micros it's wanting. Only when the plants want them and nothing in excess.
Anything cannabis absorbs will be available in the plant, and most 'excess' will still be available after harvest. Cannabis is great at phytoremediation, so even 'stuff' which cannabis has no need for is absorbed. In a nutshell, I'm positive it's possible to screw up veganics just as easily as using any other method, and I'll be able to taste the mistake in the end cannabis.
When you feed your cannabis correctly, regardless of method, nobody should be able to tell what you used.
As for veganics it's another form of providing npk and micros. There is no 'magic bullet' for cannabis, it's a combination of everything and the proper application of it all. My goal is to end up with a 'cannabis' plant, and not some plant full of 'stuff' you like the flavor of. LOTS of people describe moldy cannabis as 'earthy' and attribute it to 'organic' cannabis, and we're not talking the earthy smelling terpene profiles here. The finest bat-guanos on earth have a distinct flavor/smell to them, and so does cannabis which is over amended with it. Many growers consistently overfeed their organic plants to extreme excess, and are perfectly delighted with the heavy 'organic amendment' flavors it gives flowers.
Cannabis tastes awesome, all by itself without boosters and what-not. Adding humics/fulvics and other beneficial elements/molecules the plant can convert only makes things better, as long as the plant uses ALL of it. I've had many people call my cannabis the most flavorful and complex 'organic' cannabis they've seen. Over half the time it was only MaxiBloom, epsom and pH up. Nothing fancy, simply giving the plant the NPK/micros it's wanting. Only when the plants want them and nothing in excess.
Anything cannabis absorbs will be available in the plant, and most 'excess' will still be available after harvest. Cannabis is great at phytoremediation, so even 'stuff' which cannabis has no need for is absorbed. In a nutshell, I'm positive it's possible to screw up veganics just as easily as using any other method, and I'll be able to taste the mistake in the end cannabis.
When you feed your cannabis correctly, regardless of method, nobody should be able to tell what you used.
Veggia farmer
Well-known member
I re-organize these days, switching from hps too cmh. We till see how it turs out.
Less is more often.. Some of the best joints I have tasted was a one joint (maybe two) plant that I had outdoors.. GG style and it just didn`t rain and very sandy soil with little organic matter.. Taste and high was incredible..
Less is more often.. Some of the best joints I have tasted was a one joint (maybe two) plant that I had outdoors.. GG style and it just didn`t rain and very sandy soil with little organic matter.. Taste and high was incredible..
Douglas.Curtis
Autistic Diplomat in Training
I've heard a lot of good things about CMH. Definitely less infra-red to deal with, lowering heat management a little. I would be interested in the difference between CMH and CMH + 660nm and appropriate far-red leds on physical flower structure.
Indeed. Give cannabis just what it needs and...
I grow micro style under P LL and non climate control.
There are cultivars that have been flowered both cool and dry,
and hot and wet. In my book any yield with these plants is good,
but the cool and dry is superior in quality.
I dry trim just before the jar sweat, jarred for several weeks
before smoking.
My only constant is medium, nutes, and lighting.
There are cultivars that have been flowered both cool and dry,
and hot and wet. In my book any yield with these plants is good,
but the cool and dry is superior in quality.
I dry trim just before the jar sweat, jarred for several weeks
before smoking.
My only constant is medium, nutes, and lighting.
Douglas.Curtis
Autistic Diplomat in Training
Awesome to hear and thank you for dropping by, Dropped Cat. Using the same strains in both environments will definitely highlight the differences in quality. I'll say it again, I doubt I would have figured this out if I'd started with a budget and could control RH.
Using the same strains in both environments will definitely highlight the differences in quality. I'll say it again, I doubt I would have figured this out if I'd started with a budget and could control RH.
Awesome to hear and thank you for dropping by, Dropped Cat.
I envy the growers who have climate control.
As a hobby grower I roll with the punches,
last summer I had 60+ days ambient 90F.
When I read threads about VPD and humidity /temp DIF I just sigh.
Nuances of growing I can't reproduce.
I'mback
Comfortably numb!
VPD ia a guideline e.g a starting point, a tool to be used, nothing more. You can't bend the rules unless you know them
Sunshineinabag
Active member
Excuse me curtis, great thread manAs some of you are aware, I've been pushing the concept of flowering in cool/dry conditions for many years now. I vastly prefer the quality it produces, and am unable to easily find it anywhere else. There are other variables involved than simply dropping RH, and I've tried to include as many as I could think of in this post.
SO... I give you a bit of context of where I'm coming from, a description of my preferred end product, and provide my best explanations on my how and why of it.
Cannabis is My Medicine
I use cannabis all day, every day, for a variety of medical reasons. I'm autistic, very intelligent, have adhd, dwindling anxieties, birth defects and injuries which have created lifelong character building. I'm working on taking consistent and detailed notes, and unfortunately this is a recent pursuit. I've never grown for the purpose of selling, and all of my cannabis goes to myself, my wife and occasionally shared with a few friends. I've not weighed a harvest in over 10 years so i really haven't any data on 'weight.' I do know my cannabis, gram for gram, generally lasts 2-3 times longer than what I get from other growers. Even when we're growing the same clone, there's a significant difference in the structure, frangibility, terpene profile and cannabinoid content, vs. 'the norm.'
The Accidental Path
The simple truth is, I doubt I ever would have figured this out if I'd started growing with a budget. I've lived in ridiculously dry conditions for nearly all of the 15+ years I've grown cannabis. Without a budget, the least expensive environmental variable I could control was temperature. With conditions so dry, only cooler temperatures gave me adequate plant health.
The End Result I Work Toward is Head Stash Quality Cannabis
Smoking your cannabis should be almost the same experience as whole flower vaping it. Unless the strain is a particularly unpleasant flavor/aroma combination, the experience should be like inhaling a rich dessert. Soft and cool air, densely packed with flavor and aroma. Even the exhale tastes and smells awesome enough to eat.
I've found myself chomping at the exhale so many times it's ridiculous, not to mention delicous. As you toke a tightly packed bowl you can taste the 'burnt plant' flavor of the flower itself, mixed in among the flavors and aromas of the terpenes and cannabinoids. As the bowl slowly turns to a light and fluffy ash, you notice the 'burnt plant' flavor increases only ever so slightly, leaving the last hit in the bowl a tasty one. Even the exhale of the last hit in the bowl is tasty. A truly remarkable experience.
The physical structure of the flower has a different ratio of stem to flower content. You literally have a single stem in each flower, which significantly reduces searching for stem bits and the number of joints with stem holes poked in the paper. The frangibility of the flower allows it to break into tiny, frosty pieces with gentle pressure from your thumb and fingers. The biggest issue with rolling joints is how sticky the cured flowers are. With an already frosty strain, joints will literally drip resin before you're halfway through smoking it.
The Number One Key to Quality Cannabis (in my opinion)
is understanding phytoremediation, and how this drastically effects nutrient uptake and end quality in cannabis. Simply put, anything in excess which cannabis can absorb, will gladly be absorbed by a cannabis plant. Should this excess remain in the plant for too long (I have no input on what is too long for what or when, these are questions I would like the answers to), cannabis will paint/bind those atoms/molecules on new tissue growth where it will never flush out. The best nutrient 'mistakes' you can make with cannabis are underfeeding it.
My method includes:
Extra Veg Time
High Air Exchange Rate
Low Incoming Air Temp
Low Incoming RH
Higher Transpiration Rate
Lower Nutrient/Amendment strength
Full and Cyclical pH Swing in the Root Zone
No CO2 added
Lowered nutrient demands late flower
How Much Extra Veg?
You'll have to veg a lot longer for the same weight as hot/wet grows. Taken with a 50lb bag of salt, I'm thinking a rough guesstimate would be 1/3rd larger plants before flip. Veg at higher temps/RH, as long as flowers are not forming your quality will not be diminished. I've historically used bloom nutes for veg, simply because it's what I had originally for years. I have to say I like the shorter, stockier plants for canopy management, and also for supporting the heavier flowers.
Air Exchange Rate
3 complete air exchanges per minute, with as little 'direct airflow on the plants' as possible. I generally have the air hitting some other surface first before coming in contact with the plants.
Incoming air Temperature
68F/20C and HEPA filtered. I attempt to create a vortex of air along the walls. The indirect air comes in below the plants, moving up through the canopy.
Canopy Temp Max 70F/21.1C
I have a theory I'd like to test. Keeping canopy temps at 70F and below retains the more fragile monoterpenes. I believe these terpenes may be contributing to the polymerization of the more complex terpenes. I know many times I can lick my lips 30-45 minutes after smoking a joint, and still taste the awesome terpenes remaining there.
Relative Humidity
Incoming RH has always varied. As low as 15%, and as high as 25% Without a budget, my attempts at raising RH were unfruitful, so I gave up. RH above the canopy is higher, as I normally run hydro. In the desert I ran a/c, at 10k feet in the rockies I mainly used cold/dry mountain air.
High Transpiration Means Same Nutes, Diluted with More Water
The lower the RH, the lower your temp and nutrient strength needs to be. Your plants will be using significant amounts of water to stay hydrated, and this means pulling a lot of nutes with it. Many of you have experienced heat spikes, where excess transpiration brought excess nutrients/amendments with it. This situation is similar, except the transpiration rate is from the plant attempting to stay hydrated.
CO2
Ambient, and as far as I'm aware it's almost always been below 800ppm. I have only played with boosting CO2 a few times and it was years ago. I did not see any point in continuing.
Root Temperatures
I run hydro and prefer DWC, so nutrient temps are always between 65F/18.33c and 69F/20.55C. I know soil and drip through media do better at higher temps, which is another reason I prefer DWC. I'm really unsure how to do what I do with soil and a healthy/warm microheard.
Root Zone pH Swing
I'm unable to stress the importance of a full and healthy pH swing in the root zone. The cyclic movement through all healthy pH ranges allow the plants to easily absorb elements they need, lowering the overall strength required for full and healthy growth.
Summary
At flip there is no explosion of growth, no insane stretch and I've never seen an NLD-dominate hybrid triple in size. The plants will speed up in growth for sure, just not nearly as much as you're likely used to.. At peak of physical flower bulking, I can go through up to 5 gallons of water a day for a 1K HPS DWC setup. Once physical flower bulking quits, transpiration will drop off unless your nutrient/amendment strength is reduced. I can see using lightly amended soils, with teas the last few weeks for greater control. Some strains drop the pH quite dramatically, and I'm looking for more info on which elements the plants are looking for most. Historically I've used potassium carbonate powder as my pH up and GH nutes with the basic Lucas ratio.
This photo is the best example I have of premium results from this process. It's from a clone of "Pink" (pre-2.0) from Avi a few years ago. Anyone who knows "Pink," will see the trichome density difference right away.
[URL=https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=70975&pictureid=1689883&thumb=1]View Image[/URL]
Challenges moving forward:
- Identifying a quality 'balanced' feed for CMH'ish spectrum LED lighting
- Working with the lack of IR from HID lamps
- Testing various UV and far-red levels and schedules while maintaining original quality
Thoughts, questions, expletives? I want to learn more about the why, while improving the process and quality. Thank you for your time and thoughts.
Id like to offer myself up for a p e psi type challenge.....
Douglas.Curtis
Autistic Diplomat in Training
Too true.VPD ia a guideline e.g a starting point, a tool to be used, nothing more. You can't bend the rules unless you know them
Awareness in anything is key. Most people don't know you can also eliminate/control condensation through proper VPD changes. Welcome to ICMag!!! Thank you for the kind words, they're greatly appreciated.
Me too. I look forward to a room with a dehuey mini-split, so I can get back to a full room grow again. To finally grow with consistent variables is going to be very different indeed. lol
Thanks for saying such, I've been working on being more clear so I'm glad I'm getting there. A pepsi challenge sounds great, and I look forward to national events.Excuse me curtis, great thread man
Id like to offer myself up for a p e psi type challenge.....
Hello Douglas Curtis, I am that brazilian guy who talked to you via facebook messenger a few months ago.
I am glad to see you online here, and look forward to learn from you.
I am also using Maxibloom(ph 6.0) now with pure coco and tap water of 40ppm. Under some Quantum Boards and COB LEDs, I have been feeding them around 250ppm during flowering and around 150ppm during veg. Even when using diluted versions of the 6/9 Micro and Bloom GH liquid nutrients, when I feed over 300 or 400PPM I start to get N toxicity, with dark green leaves clawing down.
My question is: Everywhere I research, people use at least 800PPM with the Maxibloom KISS method, is it possible to grow using less nutrients like my plants are? They are looking great right now under these low PPM feedings.
I am glad to see you online here, and look forward to learn from you.
I am also using Maxibloom(ph 6.0) now with pure coco and tap water of 40ppm. Under some Quantum Boards and COB LEDs, I have been feeding them around 250ppm during flowering and around 150ppm during veg. Even when using diluted versions of the 6/9 Micro and Bloom GH liquid nutrients, when I feed over 300 or 400PPM I start to get N toxicity, with dark green leaves clawing down.
My question is: Everywhere I research, people use at least 800PPM with the Maxibloom KISS method, is it possible to grow using less nutrients like my plants are? They are looking great right now under these low PPM feedings.
Veggia farmer
Well-known member
Is it humid, dry? Drink a lot or not? How much you need to eat have a lot to do with your metabolism, so is it for plants. More dry and hot climate drink more, lesser nutrients. Cooler and humid, drink less, stronger feed.
Check out POST #57 by Ibechilin in this thread :
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=366467&page=6
