Phylloxera information - aka root mites aka root aphids

[attila76]

Opt1c,

First gotta say, love your work. I subscribed to your grow before I found you on this particular thread, so....http://www.icmag.com/ic/images/smilies/respect.gif

I'm gonna give these guys a few days to die off with what I already done. There is no reason to think that what I've done is ineffective, not yet. I was just hoping that it was instant death.
Others here have had effective treatments over a span of time, i.e. with configor. Was that Scrub ninja who said that?

My next post will deal with another issue that is of import on this forum: identification.

 

[attila76]

Identification

Identification

Opt1c,

I really gotta wonder how many different species of root dwelling bug different people are calling "root aphids." Given all of many participants on this thread there are so few images of them.

You, Opt1c, described them as "mine looked like black dots crawling on the netpots"

One of the few picts on this thread show small green and small black crawlers. They are very visible with the naked eye.
Picture 1.png
Picture 2.png
from-bobs your uncle 03-29-2008 09:17 AM

Me: Mine are not black, they are white. They do not look like the picture above, at all.

Yet, Shan Diego checks out my picts and says in response to my uncertainty, "Yes, it is. Use the imid."

Others have "root aphids" in soil. But there is no way that one could see mine in soil far too small. They would have to be soooo past any hope of control by the time one sees them in soil.

If you have followed me so far...... you may begin to question whether we on this thread were ever referring to the same thing.

 

[attila76]

those photos

those photos

Here are those photos showing different bugs. the micro white one's are what I got.

 

[ScrubNinja]

I had orange, black, white crawlies, all in my coco/dirt. I had a big resurgence in one pot especially days after treatment. Don't panic atilla, it's a systemic. This means it has to get soaked up by the plant, spread through it's sytem, then eaten. Any instant contact activity is incidental to the way it's really working.

In the 3 cases I've seen the fliers and the ant activity have been the easiest indicator so I could then investigate in depth.

 

[attila76]

I never saw one of these fly. They never seem to get big enough for that. I've only seen them as a small speck of white sand. Can't even make out the a single feature with the naked eye.

Still, Scrubninja, how long did it take before you gained the upper hand, or began to notice a positive effect.

On the one hand, I am considering going the route of others here who have done the Merit 75, or triazide route.

On the other hand I MAY have already won the war and I only need to let it ride. If its a short period of time to gauge the effect of the current treatment well then thats easy. But if I have to wait too long to see an effect well...

What was your experience as you recall?

 

[ScrubNinja]

Well, on my 2 weed plants, each one is in a seperate cab. With both plants they seemed all gone the next day. Then a couple days later I realised the tiny white ones were in decent numbers on plant 2 (likely had dry pockets in the coco and eggs hatched?). Plant 1 (my big main plant) was the same but nowhere near as big of a resurgence. I treated plant 2 again with a mega dose (6 drops per litre!) as it's been treated with CS as well and wasn't going to be smoked anyway. Basically there are none now on either weed plant inside and I haven't seen any for a fair few days, although I will have a good check when lights come on soon, and post if I see anything. I should mention my house is well screened for insects.

In comparison, I have many vegetables in pots outside and they were probably the most swarming of all. They all seemed to die off straight away but much later I still notice one here and there. I saw the larger orange crawly today, just one, and I've seen two of the white tiny ones also on the vege soil. These don't bother me at all since I'd be foolish to think I can treat the nature outside. That is the benefit of the systemic, it will keep working. They'll eat the plant and die.

Of course, we have the ongoing issues with some people in the thread so I may well crash and burn but so far, it's behaving exactly how a systemic should work, and I no longer feel suicidal. Hell, I don't even think about them until I see this thread. So I hope that gives you some hope. If they are still crawling in large numbers say 5 days after treatment then I think it may be some other pest. If numbers keep dropping, then I suspect you'll be okay or at least can be sure you treated the right pest.

 

[opt1c]

attila; that's why i recommend the combination of merit with the gnatrol bt product... with the two of those whatever is crawling in your soil needs a spine to be alive after treatment. I like the merit because it is a more concentrated form of the imid without as many unknown fillers making up that other 90% or whatever the bayer is; i like to know what i'm putting in my plants as much as possible especially when it comes to chemicals.

Just like there are different species of mites there are different species of root aphids; i think the medium plays a role in what point in their life cycle they explode; often times you don't realize you have them until they're in their later stages of life; the last stage is the flying nymph stage where the go off seeking new roots as the ones in the pot they are in have been sucked dry; not a good stage to find them in. My netpots were full of rockwool minicubes and i didn't notice them until they reached the surface; they were brought in my garden via a compromised bag of coco and spread quite rapidly. I was lucky, i guess, in that i vegged my plants for over 50 days and flowered them for 70 days; well over the 90 days the chemicals were present in the plants; imid, however, is stored in the roots of the plants and i don't believe that it travels to the leaves or anything so i don't know how much would end up in the buds on a molecular level; i just go with the better safe than sorry approach.

good luck

 

[ScrubNinja]

I still have none of the obvious signs. Been watching the garden vegies like a hawk and no signs of any type. Definitely nothing crawling on my coco but I did find more cluster things on my roots, again only in a part where light was getting to them (this is the last time I ever use a clear plastic container). So I dunno man, not looking fantastic. I still have faith though.

What is the clustery perlite-like stuff anyway? Are they eggs? That was the first sign that people picked up on that I had root aphids. I definitely had the root aphids but some people suggested it could be a type of beneficial bacteria stuff or maybe even non beneficial. I started using a lot of organics in the mix so I just don't know at this point. Did all you guys have the perlite-like stuff in your medium?

I took some pics and I'll upload soon but I hope you know the stuff I mean.

 

[ScrubNinja]

Well I noticed that they reappearred on the surface of the mega-dosed plant. The tiny white crawlies, and some smaller darker, like miniature fleas. Still no more observed on vegies outdoors. The root stuff was observed on the other cannabis plant in the other cab, still no other signs apart from that - no crawlies etc. Here it is:



Bleh Eggs? They're larger in the coco but they sort of fall apart when you dig them up. They look a lot like perlite but it's just soft mush if you squeeze it.

 

[attila76]

An update:

They seem to have backed off quite a bit for now. Though I can still easily find them crawling about. The roots are stained orange, and brown. Still they grow slightly out pacing the bugs.

Not sure if I am making an impact. Thinking of Merit or another one that someone mentioned ... need to do more research on it.

Anyway, hjere are photos of mine. In the upclose photo you will see little bumps on the "top hat." They live submerged in water and stay under the waters surface tension.

 

[attila76]

Well I noticed that they reappearred on the surface of the mega-dosed plant. The tiny white crawlies, and some smaller darker, like miniature fleas. Still no more observed on vegies outdoors. The root stuff was observed on the other cannabis plant in the other cab, still no other signs apart from that - no crawlies etc. Here it is:



Bleh Eggs? They're larger in the coco but they sort of fall apart when you dig them up. They look a lot like perlite but it's just soft mush if you squeeze it.

That doesn't look familiar at all. The white stuff could be anything. Often the biggest problem with these kinds of bugs is the disease, fungus and various pathogens that they bring to the medium.

I wish you could drop some pictures of the little beasties themselves. I bet they are hard to get images of. Mine were nearly impossible. Though I've done it.

 

[ScrubNinja]

Yeah mate sadly it's got a thick scrog over it so it's too dark. I'll see if I can get a shot if they reappear (after an even slightly stronger treatment). They seem much like your little specks though. The plant with the white perlite stuff, despite having some root issues, is doing spectacular.

I'm not sure if you realise but most cameras have a macro mode, so if you see a button or option that looks like a Super Mario flower, that will let you get really clear close-ups. Good luck.

 

[attila76]

I'm trying to get photos to this page without the attachments. I think alot of people are afraid of downloading attachments.

Can I copy a link from my album, using the "insert image" button.

 

[ScrubNinja]

Yeah, I think you got it. Upload to your album, then click "Go advanced" when composing your post, and under the smilies is "Insert". Click and it adds the code to your post.

Well I still could see 2 white specks moving on the megadosed plant's surface - tried for a pic but no dice.

I found another orange larger one on my vegies outdoor and realised these are just tiny jumping spiders and not actually orange, just shiny - pretty sure it's a native spider. I watched it and all it was doing was circling the rim of my pot, like it was a predator protecting the plant. Maybe I smoke too much pot though.



So basically the megadosed dope plant has your white specks, my big dope plant has root issues but no signs of insects, and the outdoor vegies seem pest free.

 

[attila76]

Ya the few pictures that I have was like a hole in one. Impossible to line up camera, locate, focus, and find a stable enough hand. I've tried several more times, all to no avail.

Update: Fewer pests by the day in terms of numbers, yet they do persist. Interestingly, my ph level is falling in three of the four pots.

Any ideas?

Data points

under 2000 watts

sealed room

co2 controlled at 1300 ppm during light hours

air temps 72- 83

water temps 68 mostly

ppms 550- 600 mostly stable,

House and Garden Nutrients, and 4 tbs Bayer Tree and Scrub per 4 gallons.

good air stone oxygenation



Ph data over 24 hours-

Ak #1 ph found at 5.3 so I moved it to 5.8
Temp 68

Ak #2 ph fond at 5.2 I moved to 5.8, ppm 590
Temps 68

Ak #3 ph 5.8 perfect. Ppm 600
Temps 68

Ak #4 found at ph 5.3 moved to 5.8 ppm 530
Temps 68

Why?

 

[attila76]

A little update,

I have stuck with the Bayer Tree and Shrub, and it seems to effectively control the little beasties well enough. but still they continue to persist. Most times they are hard to find, other times they are easily visible. The roots are able to keep up with the damage actually quite well. I commenced flowering 10-27 and wow they are clearly budding up just fine. Only a little mag def due, i think, due to low ph locking mag out. very minor indeed

Just something for others searching this forum in the future.

 

[inreplyavalon]

HI folks. I recently discovered these, and was confirmed by the Noble scrubninja. I am about 5 weeks into flower and not going to apply any serious pesticides until next round, but wondering if there is a RELATIVELY SAFE APPLICATION OF SOMETHING TO POSSIBLY SLOW THEM DOWN A BIT 3 WEEKS BEFORE HARVEST?

I realize there only seems to be one pesticide that can get them under control, and plan on using it for the moms, but am having a hard time sitting idly by as my harvest is diminished. Thanks all.

ps. I did get to page 11 of the thread and will finish it eventually, but my head was spinning and i don't recall. THANKS AGAIN

 

[attila76]

I wouldn't mess with them at this point. I doubt that they will make a difference so late to go.
Treating them has costs too. Kind of like surgery, it may be worse than the disease, especially so late.
Even if they are in late stages it may be too late.

For example if in hydroponics, simply being effective in killing them will cause decomposition which drops ph dramatically. Like from 5.8 to 4.9 in less than one day. that will decrease harvest as well.
There are no truly good answers to this pest.

 

[attila76]

BYW- I'm prety sure that Bayer tree and scrub is supposed to be food safe.

 

[opt1c]

HI folks. I recently discovered these, and was confirmed by the Noble scrubninja. I am about 5 weeks into flower and not going to apply any serious pesticides until next round, but wondering if there is a RELATIVELY SAFE APPLICATION OF SOMETHING TO POSSIBLY SLOW THEM DOWN A BIT 3 WEEKS BEFORE HARVEST?

I realize there only seems to be one pesticide that can get them under control, and plan on using it for the moms, but am having a hard time sitting idly by as my harvest is diminished. Thanks all.

ps. I did get to page 11 of the thread and will finish it eventually, but my head was spinning and i don't recall. THANKS AGAIN

my friend said an azatrol/azamax soil drench worked; search my posts in the thread but i think the ratio was 1oz/gal... could b wrong... i never tried it myself but he said it works; i think the neem applied to soil won't affect the taste of buds or anything like that so late into flower