Phylloxera information - aka root mites aka root aphids

[sarek]

Merit hass the active ingredient Imadacloprid in it. This is a massively used systemic pesticide used in agriculture. Unfortunately it seems to be suspect in bee die offs. But for use in a room once to egt rid of Phylloxera I think that bees will not be affected. It seems to be used on ALOT of edible produce including lettuce and tobacco. It seems to be low in toxicity relative to alot of other pesticides including many commonly used organic pesticides. It is Clorinated Nicotine (like Spinosad) so it is very toxic to insects but not too bad for mammals. I thinkit is ~100 LESS toxic than nicotine pesticide but worse for insects.

This is also Bayer Tree and shrub (1.25%) vs Merit (~40%) Imidacloprid and many many other formulations that all contain Imid. I suggest the Bayer Tree and Shrub from Home Depot or many other nurseries as it is pretty weak. Merit is industrial strength and used for hundreds of acres. That concentration is probably dangerous to bring into your house and use for your little grow. The tree and shrub is already weak and for $20 you need to use about 15 cents worth to get rid of Phylloxera. I think that you would just need the smallest amount in hydroponics but need to give it some time to get absorbed. It takes 1 to 7 days to fully absorb throughout plant.

Bayer Tree and shrub 1 teaspoon /gallon of water in a bucket. Put over medium. The medium is important. Rockwool you can pour over top of cubes and let sit absorbing into roots. If you are in other medias you need to adjust delivery. Remember this stuff is not really a contact killer. It needs to be ABSORBED INTO roots and then it gets into plant and kills over next week or so. So if you just pour it over roots and then rinse it off it might not get absorbed. Whatever your technique and medium you need to think thru the delivery. You might add to resevoir and apply for 3 days then change water.

Normally I do not think using systemic is a good idea with a crop like this but for such a difficult pest as root aphids it might be ok to use it once. EVER. You should hit all plants and even house plants too since adults fly and can infect houseplants which can then re-infect. Pour the rest of the gallon on houseplants to kill all aphids around the house. Once Imid gets into your system plants that should be the end of the problem.

I think that this is a low toxicity pesticide that WILL kill Root Aphids if used correctly. That is better than spraying GALLONS of neem etc pesticides like some of you seem to be doing!

Below is a excerpt showing Imid used for tobacco. I think that is important since they are both smoked so if it is pretty safe for Tobacco then I think it is ok for this. Some of you hate ALL pesticides so good luck to you. I am trying to find a least toxic yet still highly effective pesticide.

This works for other sucking insects also but I do not think it should be used for other things as there are other treatments like Spinosad and Floramite.

I might suggest this if you get new clones from someone that might have pests. Add a couple drops of 1tsp/gal to babies and quarantine a few weeks.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Imidacloprid was registered for use on tobacco as a greenhouse tray drench in 1996 and as a transplant water treatment in 1997. When applied in either method, it provides extended control of aphids, flea beetles and wireworms on field tobacco. Imidacloprid is not registered to control insect pests in greenhouses or plant beds, but when it is applied as a tray drench to greenhouse plants just before transplanting it controls aphids, flea beetles and wireworms on the crop in the field. A single application of imidacloprid was used on an estimated 70 percent of greenhouse transplants at 1.0 to 1.4 fluid ounces per 1000 plants. About 75 percent of the imidacloprid used on tobacco is applied to greenhouse transplants as a tray drench treatment and the remaining 25 percent is applied in the transplant water (14,16).

Imidacloprid was introduced for use in 1996, but little was used during that first year. In 1999 and 2000, imidacloprid was used on an estimated 60 to 70 percent of the tobacco acreage, at a rate of 0.12 pounds active ingredient per acre.

++++++++++++++

Root aphids are NOT regular aphids. They share the common name but are very different.

Please if anybody can tell me anything quantifiably bad about Imidacloprid. From my research we all eat lots of this stuff everyday in agriculture. I believe it might be in the top 3 pesticides used worldwide for agriculture.

 

[DRock]

I was hit hard as well by root aphids. Everytime I get or make new babies I dip them in Azatrol 1oz/10gal. Havent seen a problem yet. Im gonna try that Merit 75 on a few that i have in flower. Any suggestions on dosage? Were can you buy it???

 

[NorCal]

dont know where to buy it but i can say , i applied it on saturday morning

and by monday afternoon when i checked em again, they grew about 50 % sprouted even more roots and all the bugs were dusted, so this stuff has got to work

its pretty crazy, theses things were in 3x3 pots w/coco and the roots were completely hanging out the bottoms and growing into their neighbors (nice white and fuzzy) and filled with tons of these little beetle looking things everywhere. I applied 1.2 grams to 5 gallons of water and top fed the pots ( realistically its way easier to just prepare the water and dunk each one individually and get all the bugs off the roots at the bottom by shaking the pot in the water) and by monday there wasnt any sign of the bugs left, I actually transplanted those root bound plants on monday and was able to check each one individually in the process (I wasnt done until 7 in the morning, started @ 2 in the afternoon, yeah real tiring) and didnt see anything in there.

if yu can find it, try it its def worth a shot with these crop killers on the loose

good luck, ill post up on the progress of the treatments, hth

 

[DRock]

dont know where to buy it but i can say , i applied it on saturday morning

and by monday afternoon when i checked em again, they grew about 50 % sprouted even more roots and all the bugs were dusted, so this stuff has got to work

its pretty crazy, theses things were in 3x3 pots w/coco and the roots were completely hanging out the bottoms and growing into their neighbors (nice white and fuzzy) and filled with tons of these little beetle looking things everywhere. I applied 1.2 grams to 5 gallons of water and top fed the pots ( realistically its way easier to just prepare the water and dunk each one individually and get all the bugs off the roots at the bottom by shaking the pot in the water) and by monday there wasnt any sign of the bugs left, I actually transplanted those root bound plants on monday and was able to check each one individually in the process (I wasnt done until 7 in the morning, started @ 2 in the afternoon, yeah real tiring) and didnt see anything in there.

if yu can find it, try it its def worth a shot with these crop killers on the loose

good luck, ill post up on the progress of the treatments, hth

Norcal, how is everything looking?

 

[terran2]

Pic below off the UC Davis site & larger pic one taken @ home with PC micro-capture ...yep same critter .

*** Sterilizing containers and rooms & restarting w/ fresh cuts & medium . I'd avoid any hardcore systemic pesticides unless one could be found that did more good than harm . Looking over alternatives Imidacloprid , a systemic nicotinic neurotoxin seems to be the most widely used , selective acting and less harmful ?

Sure works on dog's fleas in the product Advantage ! Would want to use this
early on to have the majority of broken down by harvest .

This pic i just took recently with a micro capture device/pc friendly ...determined little buggers bent on devastation ..but so are we humans , no ? lmao

btw, nice GDP cola kromobe .....nice cut that !

;o)

 

[S4vvy]

I think there's a chance that we're talking about two different pests in this thread What i have is pretty much a straight up aphid. Has a flying stage that looks kinda different from the non winged stage but i don't think there's any stage where they're armored

 

[clowntown]

I've thought that for a while too, S4vvy. What I have look exactly like the ones pictured by terran2, but I've never seen any flying / winged or any armored or anything that looks different than the picture... someone said it might be beneficial root mites?

 

[DRock]

Marathon II

Marathon II

Ok fellas, Im going to try a commercial form of Imidacloprid called Marathon II. I talked with techs @ Bayer and this was the only product with this active ingredient that can be used with edible containerized vegtables. They said it would treat this F-kn pest!!! I have a bottle on its way $250 for 250ml. I will keep you posted on this here in the next few days!!!

 

[sonoma]

yikes....I have a long battle ahead of me. little mother!@#$'s

 

[clowntown]

Wow, more and more people... sounds like this is really spreading in the SF Bay!

I met with slips and chrones the other day, who suggested a solution which I forgot the name to. I will remember to get it the next time I see them. It was something like triaz-something....

 

[sarek]

Imidacloprid.

I think it is very important to understand what you people are talking about. The active ingredient that WILL take care of Phylloxera is Imidicloprid. There are many, many formulations that go by many trade names such as Merit, Advantage, and Bayer tree and Shrub. These all have Imidacloprid as their main ingredient. The differences in many of the trade formulas are concentration and application type (such as wettable powder or soluble drench etc).

As I pointed out a few pages ago Bayer Tree and Shrub DOES work and has the benefit of costing $20 from many nurseries everywhere. Hard to frack up and make enough for 100 acres in a 3'x3' tray. 1 teaspoon in a gallon should eradicate all root aphids in most growrooms for perhaps 100 plants of medium/large size. If you are mathematical you can deduce other formulas but that is pretty simple. The Bayer tree and shrub is soluble in water which is important. Some other formulations might have sulubility issues or be very high concentrate.

This stuff works.

I totally recomend it for using on new clones u get from elsewhere. A good protocol is to plant clones in a separtate area and treat the soil or rockwool with imidacloprid and then wait for it to kill everything. Spinosad might also be applieed foliarly. Grow these out for awhile which should kill everything, then take clones and move them elsewhere. This quarantine process will stop you from catching bugs in the first place and even for organic people is safe as u r just applying a small amount on small clones which u later take clones from and so not much/any left later on in plants.

I post this cos I want people to use real insecticides like this carefully. I think this stuff seems pretty safe to use to get rid of your root aphids. I would not use it on an ongoing basis.

from Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imidacloprid

Imidacloprid is an insecticide manufactured by Bayer Cropscience (part of Bayer AG). It is sold under a variety of trade names including Kohinor, Admire, Advantage, Gaucho, Merit, Confidor, Hachikusan, Premise, Prothor, and Winner.

The most widely used applications for imidacloprid in California are pest control in structures, turf pest control, grape growing, and head and leaf lettuce growing. Other widespread crop uses are rice, grains/cereals including corn (maize), potatoes, vegetables, sugar beets, fruit, cotton, and hops. Target insects include sucking insects (e.g. aphids, whiteflies, leafhoppers and planthoppers, thrips, scales, mealybugs, bugs, psyllids, and phylloxera), beetles (e.g. longhorn beetles, leaf beetles, Colorado potato beetles, rice water-weevils, wireworms, grubs, and flea beetles), and others (e.g. lepidopterous leaf*miners, some diptera, termites, locusts, and fleas).

When used for seed treatments, it is sold under the trade names Akteur, Amigo, Baytan Secur, Chinook, El Hombre, Escocet, Gaucho, Gaucho Blé, Gaucho CS, Gaucho Maícero, Gaucho MZ, Gaucho Orge, Gaucho Primo, Gaucho T, Gaucho MT, Gaucho XT, Genesis, Faibel, Ferial Blé, Férial Orge, Imprimo, Manta Plus, Monceren Extra, Monceren G, Monceren GT, Montur, Prestige, Prestige M, Raxil Secur, Seed-one, Sibutol Secur, Yunta and Zorro FS 236.

When used on citrus, coffee, cotton, fruits, grapes, potatoes, rice, soybeans, sugarcane, tobacco and vegetables as an insecticide spray, it is sold under the trade names Admire, Confidor, Connect, Evidence, Leverage, Muralla, Provado and Trimax.

It is marketed as Premise for termite control and Advantage in the US and Europe for flea control on pets. It is also sold under the trade names Merit, Admire, Confidor and Winner, as well as Hachikusan (in Japan).

 

[DRock]

Sarek,

I will agree to some point on the Bayer and tree shrub. I applied it on two tables an havent seen any bugs running around. The only problem I have is that this product or Merit 75 are not recomended for containerized plants in greenhouses. Were as Anvantage II is Also for veggies for resale. So, im assuming there formulated differently because there is a large price difference. Andvantage II is also in liquid form but has a concentrate of Imid @ 21%. I dont want to mess anyone up with a product thats not recomended. Karma is a mofo. I spent all day yesterday researching this and i will treat tomorrow with advantage II. Not sure what dosages but i will let you guys know. I just want to make it thru this run then reevaluate. Does anyone know on how Imid is on benificial bacteria? Pretty sure it kills em but just double checking...

 

[sarek]

DRock,

I think that alot of what is going on has to do with EPA regulations. Pesticides in general are formulated for very specific crops and pests. Unfortunately, there seems to be little designed for hydroponics at all. Furthermore I think Bayer is worried about Imid getting intowater supply as it takes a long time to decompose. Pesticide companies make these things so that in general there use is very cookbook so people cannot mess up with food products. In our case we might need to infer a bit since canna in grow rooms are not really like much else. The closest seems to be greenhouse tomatoes and cucumbers and head lettuce.

In general I think that it is always good to think in terms of the active ingredient, Tylenol has Ibuprofen in it but sometimes might ahave other stuff so its important to tell people to take ibuprofen, not Tylenol.

I think the price dif and such is releted to formulations etc. 250 mls of 20% (or 50mls pure Imid) is alot more than Bayer Tree and Shrub which is maybe 1000 mls of 1.5% (or 15 mls of pure Imid).

My suggestion is that it is the lowest concentration I see available so harder to screw up.

As for dosing here are some data points with thrips which it also kills.

In following examples I use a standard 3x3 tray ebb n flow, 6 inch rockwool cubes, 40 gal resevoir, water 3-4x daily, 12 hour cycle in Flower.

10ml per tray for ebb n flow rockwool will kill thrips
4 ml per tray did NOT kill thrips
therefore 10ml is a good amount to use that both kills thrips and has minimal plant concentration.

Example 1: So if you have 4 trays of 3' x 3' ebb n flow you can add 40 mls (8tsp) into 1-3 gallons water. divide that by how many plants ya got. Pour that over cubes. Resevoir is 40 gallon.

Example 2: 1 tray 3x3 6 plants rockwool. 10ml bayer mixed into 1/2gallon of water =64 ounces solution. divide that up onto plants evenly.

Example 3: 1 tray flowering with 6 plants, 1 smaller veg tray with 12 smaller ones under 12 inches high and clone tray with 30 clones. Mix 15mls of imidacloprid/Bayer into 1 gallon water ~ 4 liters = 4000 mls. Puor 2/3 (or 2,666mls final soln) onto 6 in flower tray. Pour 1200 mls onto smaller plants with 100 mls per plants. Pour remaining ~130 mls onto clones. Use a small eye dropper or pipette to apply or carefully drop.

Ideally I think you should water at night so stuff has 12 hours to absorb. You can water during day but do it right after watering. Wait at least a few days before changing resevoir. Pour it OVER the cubes not into resevoir as this concentration that I provided is for pouring over the cubes. If you pour it into res you are further diluting imid so you might need to add more.

If you do other forms of hydro you can use this as a guideline. Any ebb n flow media might be similar. Hydrotons tho might be different as if you poured the imid over the rockwool it might drain through more readily. Variable can be many and include media type, media volume, watering frequency. If you are doing NFT for example the imid would be applied directly to roots.

In all cases you can titrate to find the amount. Start with a low dose with an active infestation. Use solution at a weak formula and wait a few days to see if things die. Write down in permanent marker how much you use exactly and how. If they are still alive after a week then that amount is not enough. Maybe you can double concentration. If that kills them you have found a good minimal dose. Imidacloprid works against Phyloxera, thrips and many other sucking insects. My guess is that the concentration for different insects is roughly the same, thats why I posted this thrip info which is about the same as Phyloxera. If I recall it takes 48 hours to absorb into plant (I think ) so wait a bit until you get some answers. Dont apply, wait 1 day, and add 10 times as much. Thats panicing. This stuff works like magic.

While it works for thrips, I still would recomend using spinosad over this on principal of not using systemics.

Upon further reflecting, I think there are a lot of variables with this process. If you are a small time grower doing different techniques stick with easier pesticides. This is for people with some experience and a standardized system. Try to avoid using this. Its a last resort.

WRITE DOWN your dosing patterns. Keep them for your own records so u know what worked. Post it here as well. Write down all the details. Posting I tried 3 mls means nothing unless u say more about your growth system - ebb n flow, medium, canopy size, etc. Do you mean per plant or per tray, Sea of green or trees. How long did u let it sit around for?

I am not a professional pesticide person but do understand science stuff and want to try to discuss this in an educated way which I think we are doing. Thanks.

I advocate other people who are considering using this pesticide to research it and help to come to a consensus of the safety of this since it is a systemic and that means that many people might be ingesting it. That is why I included Tobacco and Imid, analagous to the herb.

Please if anybody can find concerns voice them.

 

[NorCal]

the merit 75 is labled for use on fruit trees and grapes

imidacloprid is the same stuff you put on your dogs/cats to keep their fleas controlled for a month
(Advantage/frontline)

like i said, I used it and i have yet to see any more signs of the problem
just transplanted some more cuts that were treated and they all look good and very healthy

I weighed out 1.2 grams and added to 5 gallons of water in a bucket so that i could dunk each 3x3 pot in it

it took care of my problem and i have yet to see any furthur sign of reinfestation

I dont advocate using this product nor am i proud to say i did but im in a situation where i cant lose this crop and time is a big factor as this is my last run

likewise if anyone has any additional info please inform us

 

[-VT-]

I cleaned house....

I cleaned house....

and tossed every bit of plant matter and coco in sight. Toughest critters I've ever dealt with. So nothing to share on that, sorry. Gonna stray off topic....

Considering the behavior and biology of many aphid species, it's not surprising there is little consensus as to how to kill 'em off. I saw on Discovery Channel that pesticides are not always effective at every phase of a pests life cycle (especially those with complete metamorphosis). Tough to get 'em when they shed skin (molt) every few days. Also eggs, then the nymphs (or instars) at various stages. Gotta try a "cocktail", lol. I think insecticide soaps (I used Bti) are effective against the overwintering eggs. I had them under control--until, well, I'll get into the whole story.

Many aphids (namely, subterranean aphids--several classes, species, etc) undergo cyclical parthenogenesis. They will alternate between parthenogenesis (asexual reproduction) and sexual reproduction. The shit is complex and fascinating.

I am certain I saw this entire cycle, sadly. I mentioned having them in a thread last year and thought they were gone--not so. Last summer, during a transplant, I saw a waxy buildup on my roots (which looked white and healthy otherwise.) I thought it was fungus gnat eggs--It looked like a spider web embedded with eggs. This, I now know, is the early phase.

Males (can be winged or unwinged) and females (unwinged) will mate. My guess is that the males develop wings if they need to go find a female (at another plant/host). They'll crawl for it, if it's close by (not much unlike our species )

Anyways they will lay eggs (typically overwintering--further increasing survival chances). These eggs are in the medium (were in my coco--which I recycled for a year, lol) and will hatch when it's time (usually seasonal). In my case it was "time" soon as I introduced new genetics and thought they were gone

The eggs hatch and the "Fundatrix" are born at the root zone--now it gets bad. This is when they go parthenogenetic (asexual). This means the root zone is full of lesbians giving birth to females. No males. Females will even give birth to pregnant females!!! They won't hatch eggs (so Bti useless here). They'll keep eggs inside their bodies and have living babies. Obviously, they can reproduce quickly this way!! It's the girls in the rootzone that suck on the roots.

These girls will eventually give birth to winged females who go on to make more "sexuales" to start the entire cycle again.

That type of elaborate life cycle is tough to combat IMO, damn.

Not all species are holocyclic as described above--some are anholocyclic. Both overwinter. Foggers will not do anything, most likely, for overwintering eggs and nymphs.

In coco my advice is to water daily. They prefer it hot and dry. Cool temps and a wet medium will help keep them knocked down (as clowntown noted earlier)

So many of us may be attacking the critters at different phases of development. And, of course, there are so many species.

Never heard of these chemicals you guys are using. I say go for it. I'd worry about resistance though--long term.

 

[l_d_d]

That is a lil fugger t2. Hard to see I imagine.

You might just have root aphids in your brain tho


Thanks to everyone contributing info here and helping our community with what we can regarding to this problem and these lil bastids.

 

[S4vvy]

and tossed every bit of plant matter and coco in sight. Toughest critters I've ever dealt with. So nothing to share on that, sorry. Gonna stray off topic....

Considering the behavior and biology of many aphid species, it's not surprising there is little consensus as to how to kill 'em off. I saw on Discovery Channel that pesticides are not always effective at every phase of a pests life cycle (especially those with complete metamorphosis). Tough to get 'em when they shed skin (molt) every few days. Also eggs, then the nymphs (or instars) at various stages. Gotta try a "cocktail", lol. I think insecticide soaps (I used Bti) are effective against the overwintering eggs. I had them under control--until, well, I'll get into the whole story.

Many aphids (namely, subterranean aphids--several classes, species, etc) undergo cyclical parthenogenesis. They will alternate between parthenogenesis (asexual reproduction) and sexual reproduction. The shit is complex and fascinating.

I am certain I saw this entire cycle, sadly. I mentioned having them in a thread last year and thought they were gone--not so. Last summer, during a transplant, I saw a waxy buildup on my roots (which looked white and healthy otherwise.) I thought it was fungus gnat eggs--It looked like a spider web embedded with eggs. This, I now know, is the early phase.

Males (can be winged or unwinged) and females (unwinged) will mate. My guess is that the males develop wings if they need to go find a female (at another plant/host). They'll crawl for it, if it's close by (not much unlike our species )

Anyways they will lay eggs (typically overwintering--further increasing survival chances). These eggs are in the medium (were in my coco--which I recycled for a year, lol) and will hatch when it's time (usually seasonal). In my case it was "time" soon as I introduced new genetics and thought they were gone

The eggs hatch and the "Fundatrix" are born at the root zone--now it gets bad. This is when they go parthenogenetic (asexual). This means the root zone is full of lesbians giving birth to females. No males. Females will even give birth to pregnant females!!! They won't hatch eggs (so Bti useless here). They'll keep eggs inside their bodies and have living babies. Obviously, they can reproduce quickly this way!! It's the girls in the rootzone that suck on the roots.

These girls will eventually give birth to winged females who go on to make more "sexuales" to start the entire cycle again.

That type of elaborate life cycle is tough to combat IMO, damn.

Not all species are holocyclic as described above--some are anholocyclic. Both overwinter. Foggers will not do anything, most likely, for overwintering eggs and nymphs.

In coco my advice is to water daily. They prefer it hot and dry. Cool temps and a wet medium will help keep them knocked down (as clowntown noted earlier)

So many of us may be attacking the critters at different phases of development. And, of course, there are so many species.

Never heard of these chemicals you guys are using. I say go for it. I'd worry about resistance though--long term.

Excellent post! I agree their life cycles are fascinating as hell. Too bad we can't really enjoy it

 

[DRock]

Imidacloprid

Imidacloprid

I just wanted to keep you guys updated on my treatment of phylloxera. I treated with Marathon II(21%) on Tuesday. I hit the girls with full strength food and 1/2 strength insecticide. So far so good! No sign of any bugs @ all. Im going to reapply in 10days with same application to break there cycle(hopefully). Im also watering without any runoff to assure full absorbtion of Imid. Keep you guys updated...

 

[Shan Diego]

...I saw a waxy buildup on my roots (which looked white and healthy otherwise.)

If you dig down in there, you will find the grub-like thing. Too fat to be a fungus gnat larvae, but looks like a giant one. I had that, and the visible aphids in the root zone...and the flying f'ers too...it looks the the imidacloprid may have actually devastated them in just a week. I went for dunk number 2 today...looks effective and safe enough for normal daily consumption.

 

[DRock]

If you dig down in there, you will find the grub-like thing. Too fat to be a fungus gnat larvae, but looks like a giant one. I had that, and the visible aphids in the root zone...and the flying f'ers too...it looks the the imidacloprid may have actually devastated them in just a week. I went for dunk number 2 today...looks effective and safe enough for normal daily consumption.

Yo Shan,
What product did you use with Imidacloprid in it??? Bayer and tree shrub??
How many days did you wait before your second treatment? Well bro your in the same boat as me. I treated and havent seen anything since. I go for my second treatment next week. Keep us updated on your progress bro.Good luck!