Phylloxera information - aka root mites aka root aphids

[o.sparkles]

please......

http://www.amazon.com/Neem-475-mg-100-Capsule/dp/B00020HYD4/ref=pd_sbs_hpc_1

last thing growers need is misinformation

its been ingested by humans for 4000+ years..... and topical contact of any concentrate of anything might lead to anything. i dunno wtf getting concentrated neem on your skin has to do with the safety of it.

Why don't you try getting some concentrated Hydrochloric acid, or Sulfuric acid, or perhaps the 75% concentration of IMID on your skin and let us know what side effects that develops.

ok...well, that was totally dick.

Just saying it's not completely safe in concentrations you buy it in. People could get the wrong idea. If you ingested concentrate you would probably wish you were dead. A driplet on my finger ruined my day.

 

[BigSwifty]

Well today I took a couple 30 inch plants and killed em. They hadn't used any water for a week even with a fan on them. They look much better in pics than person. The rootballs were very sparse considering how long they should have rooted out these #5's Roots were also brownish.

At this time all plants in the garden are healthy and eating and drinking. These 3 were wasting light.

No one make fun of me wearing socks with flip flops.
I stepped in dogshit moments before the photo shoot
and had to change lol.

Bummer man! Looks like there were still in veg? Did you see any bugs when you inspected the root ball? I killed my Mr Nice plant the other day... it was 32 days into flower but all the fan leaves were almost entirely yellow and starting to get brown spots/necrosis. I didn't see any bugs in the roots at all upon thorough inspection. I did notice the root system wasn't nearly extensive as I expected... although I'm inexperienced. I also noticed some browning on some of the roots.

If the bugs stress the plant for long enough before being treated could that cause the plant to hermie?

Both of my white widow plants hermed pretty badly recently. However, they don't sign any sign of root aphid damage despite root aphids being present in my room. These plants could've hermed due to the treatments I used (pyrethrum drench/nicotine drench)... but I don't think so because none of the other plants hermed. I'm really stumped on this one though. There's no light leaks. I thought White Widow was a very stable strain... even my Sour D is doing great so far with no nanners or balls...

 

[GeorgeSmiley]

I found no bugs when I went through it. I figure the last treatment of Imid did it but these just weren't going to shape up. I have a couple smaller plants that haven't bounced back. I can give them time.......

 

[Fat J]

Well... its been what, 2 weeks or so... i forget. a lot.

Anyway: still no more RA's (knock on wood), no bugs of any kind, plants show no stress - think i caught em early as im kinda obsessive about looking at them every day. With the imid treatment I had no burn, all bugs dead within 1 week (most the 1st day) last one i saw was like 3-4 days ago - it was a gnat tho, and it was lying on its side twitching... dead when i came back later.

I still have a month and a week (maybe longer depending on how they look) so they should be nice and clean just in time for harvest. I have been treating my veg area and new clones as a preventative - dont wanna give em a chance to find another home.

At least I had a successful outcome - but it seems if they do enough damage and you dont catch em early, they can be a death sentence - especially in bloom when no new roots will grow.

Hope they get better for ya GS... :'( I'm rootin for ya. (no pun intended)

Heres what my garden looks like 3 weeks after treatment:

 

[GeorgeSmiley]

That's really great to hear. Do you have a plan for it coming up again in flower?


The only thing left struggling is some of the 1 gallon plants that are pretty yellow. Not sure if I was late feeding of they didn't handle the imid well. Not a big loss as they're small.

Here's a pic

 

[BigSwifty]

That's really great to hear. Do you have a plan for it coming up again in flower?


The only thing left struggling is some of the 1 gallon plants that are pretty yellow. Not sure if I was late feeding of they didn't handle the imid well. Not a big loss as they're small.

Are you sure those yellow ones aren't damaged from root aphids? That is how my most-damaged plant presented symptoms. The entire plant slowly turned yellow over the course of several weeks and didn't remedy itself upon addition of nitrogen. Also, it was odd because the only leaves that did remain somewhat green were on the bottom...

Well... its been what, 2 weeks or so... i forget. a lot.

Anyway: still no more RA's (knock on wood), no bugs of any kind, plants show no stress

Nice man! Plants look great... looks like you'll make it through mostly unscathed. So, I'm guessing you're somwhere around day 21? When/how did you notice the root aphids and start treating?

 

[GeorgeSmiley]

Yeah the stone cold yellow. It was all my smaller plants under 1 gallon. They have some green smaller, inner leaves that are starting to green.

I think at the very least, these plants will be stunted enough to probably affect yield and overall viability of the plant. That's 8 more I can probably throw away. Wy bother wasting 5 gallons of soil andf precious time under my light if they're already a shit plant?

Found a single flier. I've stared at my pots dirt and roots and not a crawler in any pots but all of a sudden yesterday I see a flying bug, catch it with a sticky and sure enough aphid.

The big plants were transplanted from 5 gal to 15 gal and the roots were healthy and white and these 2 were infected.

I think the point is, the more healthy roots I had on a plant before it got hit, the easier it recovered. The plants in smaller pots with less roots went quick.

Unless the IMID tortured the small plants?

Remember my outbreak never resulted in more than 5 fliers and the root eaters always took a few seconds to find. So it seemed like a mild outbreak until I had to kill those three big ones.

smiley

 

[Fat J]

GS> Yeah man I think you hit it on the head with the root damage... however if u can veg a couple more weeks maybe it would be worth root pruning and seein if they come back. If they eat enough of the roots, most of the remaining roots would be left rotting. I also wonder if the feedings during the infestation caused more nute build-up in your medium - maybe try a ph'd water flush and see how the ppm comes out. If the plants weren't eating the nutes and the water was just evaporating I wonder if you could have a lockout caused by an imbalance in the nutes in the medium (not sure - but I wonder)

As far as comin back in flower - I will be harvesting 50-60 days from when I treated, I'm hoping (knock on wood) that the treatment is strong enough in the plants to prevent their return - I hope since i treated everthing that the remaining eggs will hatch and they will die shortly after eating the plants.I'm sure there's a few eggs left (thats why u saw a flier) it was prolly laid somewhere else in the room and hatched, u prolly saw it before it had a chance to munch ur plants and die - the imid thats left in the plants will only kill the bugs once they try to consume it - preventing them from reproducing and processing food (ultimately causing total CNS failure) but it wont keep the remaining eggs from hatching.

If they come back late in flower I will try my best to keep the waterings minimal and try to keep their numbers down till I chop. I can't/won't treat with anything in the last month of flower so I hope it holds out for me. (knock on wood)^420

I dont think it was the imid that hurt ur plants - i used it on freshly rooted clones with tiny little roots - no worse for the wear.

ES> if u have the time i'd treat em, ya and maybe other things in ur garden - especially if you have cedar trees or grapes as these seem to attract the RA.

 

[spleebale]

GS: Sorry to hear about your continuing woes. I think that root damage and pathogens it makes plants susceptible to can send them into a sort of shock. The crappy thing when this happens is that they do not seem to be moving/changing/drinking, so just sitting there they do not seem to be doing anything... yet almost anything you give them is the wrong thing, since they are already over-watered.

If you have applied imid, you probably do not have bad munching going on anymore - in my experience the imid cuts out all the eating, though I was using Bayer Complete Insect Killer, which also has Beta Cyfluthrin.

I HIGHLY recommend Bayer Complete Insect Killer at 30-45 mL/gal (equiv to 15-22 mL/gal T&S). At this dose it seems to immediately kill any aphids that cannot quickly fly away.

Note: applying imid products does seem to shock plant to some extent; if they are healthy they get over it right away, where most people report a positive change in appearance (new growth etc) the very next day. If plants are unhealthy, imid treatment can stress them and cause them to stall (sometimes even induces outbreaks of pathogens, like fungal leaf issues). The most important thing is to be careful with imid in recirculating hydro systems; far less imid is necessary when there will be such repeated contact with roots (5-20 mL C.I.K or 2.5-10 mL T&S). It is also important to run the pesticides for only a short period of time (2-4 hrs should be plenty!) and then change out the res and run the system again. I would personally base the length of time and concentration on how "exposed" the roots will be to the pesticide; DWC/hydrofarm systems probably only need ~30 min exposure with very low doses (since roots will be continually soaked in the solution). NFT and aero type systems could probably use slightly higher doses and exposure time, and top-feed or ebb/flow probably a bit more/longer still (perhaps 2-4 waterings for such container-hydro or rockwool slab/Hugo cube systems). Using higher levels of pesticides than the system calls for or letting pesticides stay around too long can be a recipe for disaster, as plants do not like to be continually exposed to the imid products (even at low levels) for very long.

As to shocked plants, my recommendations are:

A)Get the soil drier (warm temps, high air movement over soil and exchange and as low of R/H as possible) but do not move too much air across leaves, as this will increase evaporation/stress - I would NOT, however, recommend too much light - shocked plants need to be treated gently. I have found that the BEST way to recover shocked plants is with proper fluorescents (ones with a good spectrum for plants). T5 Bulbs meant for growing (like the ones that come with T5 fixtures in the grow shops) are probably the best - thought there are some good grow bulbs in T8 and T12 sizes and compacts too. With fluoros you can give the plants heavy light (just a few inches away) even when they are shocked, but under HPS or even MH I would raise the light at least an extra foot until they recover. As for air movement, you want to move a lot of air across the tops of the pots and exchange a lot of air from the room but not to blow too much across the leaves (which can be tricky). You do not want the leaves to be in high wind, as this will only stress them out more.

B)As soon as you can get them to dry up significantly (not super-dry, but definitely not "damp") I would recommend giving them an AACT or the best biologically active brew of organics you can create or get a hold of. One very good option is Super Plant Tonic by BMO (you can get it on Ebay) or Mayan Microzyme (you can buy it at grow stores that sell Humboldt nutrients - some sell it brewed, others just sell the concentrate and you have to brew it).

Or you can buy some powdered soluble beneficials (Great White Shark may be best, but most will do) and make your own AACT with an air-pump, an air-stone, a bucket and whatever goodies you can muster (a sock full of soil, well-rotted compost, a bit of coffee grinds, worm castings or other high-N stuff if in VEG, Bat Guano or other high-P stuff if in bloom - I like the Indonesian bat guano - high P, good price). The biggest ingredient is Unsulfured Molasses - Blackstrap molasses has the most nutrients. This will provide a whole range of vitamins and minerals as well as the most readily available source of food for the beneficials (it will kick-start their population). I actually like Humboldt Honey ES best for this, as it also has yucca and volcanic ash and other natural sources of minerals and vitamins. Use about 15-30 mL of molasses (or Honey ES) per gallon of tea you want to make [you can then dilute the tea anywhere from 5:1 water:tea to 20:1 water to tea, depending on how strong you make it and how much you are trying to feed your plants] - again, organics will almost never over-dose... the brew at my local store is made for diluting 28:1, yet the store owner pours it on all the house-plants in the store directly (undiluted). Organics are (mostly) not ionic salts, so they do not cause burning etc. even at high levels.

You do NOT need a lot of different stuff to throw in the tea (just whatever you have, buying molasses if you don't have it). It can feel a bit overwhelming, (like: "I have no idea what I am doing here or if this is even right") - but you can't generally mess up much with organics (unless you throw a whole bag of bat guano into a few gallons of tea and use it un-diluted). If you just add just a bit of things, generally you can't make organics that are toxic and the ratios of this-and-that do not matter nearly like they do with chem nutes where they all have to be in a precious balance. Read a few articles on tea brewing and then take the plunge!

C) Also: as soon as they show the FIRST signs of recovery (drinking, perking up, greening up), if you can give them some direct sunlight for a while, they will almost certainly LOVE it. Sunshine is plant miracle-food (when they are in the shape to handle it). IF you put them in the sun, keep an eye on them for the first half-hour to make sure they don't wilt - if they are decently watered they will either show you right away that tehy can't handle it or they will simply love it.

 

[Fat J]

I would prune the tops (the worst leaves first) and cut back the number of branches a bit, then pull em out, and cut about an inch off the sides and bottom - removing the most rotting roots at the extremities and repot with more fresh medium, feed a bit lighter and keep em under less light ie flouros)

This will make room for new healthy roots to grow and remove the rotting, pathogen filled segments. The worst damage seems to be on the extremities starting with the roots that are "spun-out" on the sides of the container then it works its way in, the central roots are harder for the RA to eat.

I'm fairly confident if you do this you should be able to see healthy vigor and good veg within a week using good nutes.
You can just try it on 1 and see how it works for you but i bet u can get them close to 100% where they were before the damage started. Unless they are too far gone, but u still have green growth lower down, showing u have to have a couple viable roots left.

just my .02 ^.^

 

[spleebale]

Hey Scay Beez - can you post info on the oatmeal culture of nematodes? I am very interested in cultivating my own nematodes. Thanks for starting this revolution against the worst pest ever!

-WB

 

[mrcoco]

i have had this bastards phylloxera many times
i can give u all a verry good trick to kill those flying bastards
put a glass of beer in your growing room
(depends how big room ofcourse) the bigger the more beer
& see the results
alchohol kills.... and it taste damed good to i think,& so think the fuc**g flies to
im going to buy a lot of beers 2morrow cus i got this problem right now in my mini grow,one for the flies & 9 beers fore me

 

[sodonnll]

so I've got these little root aphids as well. But they don't seem to be multiplying to bad. I keep my flower room 65 at night and 75 degrees during the day. The humidity stays between 45 and 55 with tons of fans going. I'm 45 days into flowering and I'm thinking about giving them Merit (while the lights are off so that they don't drink it) and letting them sit for 2 hrs. Then come back with nute water with H2O2 in it.
I'm not sure if I should bc I've had these root aphids for a while. The flying females aren't too bad and don't seem to be multiplying to fast.
I took one of my plants out of its pot to look at the roots. I didn't see any root aphids. I know they're in there but It's not getting out of control.

 

[humble1]

re-read this thread and the other two pertaining to root aphids (if that is in fact what you have).
Merit is NOT to be applied that late into flowering.
It WILL end up in your finished product if you do apply it this late.
and welcome to icmag!

 

[Fat J]

Humble is 100% correct - its to late to use imid. You need a non-systemic treatment that late in.

 

[Fat J]

i have had this bastards phylloxera many times
i can give u all a verry good trick to kill those flying bastards
put a glass of beer in your growing room
(depends how big room ofcourse) the bigger the more beer
& see the results
alchohol kills.... and it taste damed good to i think,& so think the fuc**g flies to
im going to buy a lot of beers 2morrow cus i got this problem right now in my mini grow,one for the flies & 9 beers fore me

Dude, the fliers arent what kills ur plant, its the nymphs killin all ur roots... ur (sort of)treating a symptom, but ur doing nothing about the problem. If thats all ur doing, I really hope u dont actually have RA.

 

[sodonnll]

Humble is 100% correct - its to late to use imid. You need a non-systemic treatment that late in.

Yeah I just thought if I did it while the lights were off it would be ok.

What do you suggest I do just leave it alone? I've got sourd and gdp in the room and the flying females aren't even on the sourd.

 

[Fat J]

The ones in the roots may end up killing them all - i'd reccomend an organic pyrethrin dip - i think one is called pyreth-it... not sure, make sure if u get it u get something designed as a dip without heavy oils (avoid Bugbuster) some ppl have had good luck with a spectracide treatment that i think was gamma-something. if you look back in the thread some1 had good results flushing with a non-systemic product from spectracide - DONT SPRAY anything or it will BE IN YOUR BUD and ruin it!

At that point (bloomin 45 days) you cant really do much. Best idea is to scrap it and clean thoroughly, i couldnt do that and i used imid but it was when I still had 50+ days till chop.

Imid and other systemic treatments will soak into the plants thru the roots (roots feed 24hrs, they dont stop suckin when its dark).

I would use a pyreth dip if i were you, you can always leave em, but often once u see the fliers your whole setup is about to go downhill fast - see some of GS's plants he lost.

 

[spleebale]

Sod: Do not freak out. Many people grow with these pests all the time and never know they have them. If you are that far in and your plant health looks good then they are not going to destroy everything. It is too late for imid (Merit etc). since it is systemic. Spectracide Triazicide (gamma-cyhalothrin) is the cheapest option to do something against them; it is not systemic but I still wonder about whether it is absorbed in any quantity by the plant, and for this reason it is not my top recommendation as late in bloom. (There are also Lambda-cyhalothrin products, which should work exactly the same, but are only 1/2 as strong. Use Spectracide Triazicide anywhere from 5-20 mL/gal. Liquid Triazicide has 0.25% Gamma-Cyhalothrin, so do the conversion is using a different product)

There is also Botanigard ES, which is supposed to be very effective but is also quite expensive ($70/bottle). Bt also seems to work to some extent, in high doses, on some species of RA (Vectobac, Gnatrol and Thuricide are all Bt). Both these solutions (Bt and Botanigard) are biological approaches and should not pollute your buds.

You can also use insecticidal soap (potassium salts of fatty acids) and dunk the medium in it for 2-3 min per plant or run it through the roots in high volume (should probably follow with properly pHed water as soap will raise pH).

Additionally predatory nematodes can be quite useful, especially after another control has already been tried.

Please let us know what you try and how it works!

-WB

 

[BigSwifty]

Well, I must say that I've confirmed that a nicotine drench worked on my aphids. I used 1cup/gallon and boiled before using.

I have the green/black aphids... I'm not sure where they fall in with what everyone else has. They are kind of plumpish and almost look what I would think a foliage aphid looks like.

I'm not yet sure if pyrethrum worked or not... A couple plants that received only pyrethrum started showing signs after treatment (slowed drinking, yellowing, etc.). It could've been root damage that occurred before treatment, but I don't know the timeframe for manifestation of symptoms. I can confirm that the one plant that recieved nicotine/pyrethrum appears to have recovered somewhat has started drinking regularly again (used hygrozyme as well for root recovery).

I'll report back when I have definitive info on the pyrethrum-only plants. Also, all of my plants received predatory nematodes (both Steiner/Her??) one week after final drench. Before nematodes all plants received 2 drenches, some plants received nicotine/pyrethrum and others pyrethrum/pyrethrum. Used Bug-Buster-O and I would recommend the pyganic as someone mentioned above. That mineral oil is heavy and reeks even after you dilute it!