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Possible N deficiency?

afman916

Member
So I think I might have a problem with nitrogen deficiency in one of my plants. Here’s some quick context before I get into it:

3x3 tent with two 240w Kingbrite LEDs (measuring with lux meter to hit ~30-40k in veg and ~50-70k in flower). BuildASoil (BAS) nutrient (V 3.0) and mineral (V 2.0) kits in organic living soil – soil base is peat, rice hulls, coarse perlite, pumice, worm castings, four different types of compost (lobster, BAS Malibu, BAS fish, BAS pinto bean). Popped seeds in a seed starting mix in small pots (around volume of a Solo cup) and progressively potted up to final (small pots -> ½ gallon -> 1 gallon -> 3 gallon -> 7 gallon). Used mycos with final transplant. Have kept temps under 80 the whole time, right around 74-77, humidity 40-50%. Watering with spring water (Deer Park 2.5 gallon jugs) ph’D at 7.0 before additions, which have been: FulPower, BAS Big 6 (micronutrients and humic Acid), BAS AgSil, BAS Coconut Powder, BAS Aloe Vera Flakes, BAS Yucca Extract, Fish and Seaweed emulsion, and just now starting to add BAS BuildABloom to waterings. At this point, I’m watering twice a week, about a half-gallon per plant. I have a plastic water bottle that’s right at a quart; drilled a bunch of holes in the cap and I use it as a pseudo watering can. Two of those per plant about every 3-4 days. Plants are mulched with straw and were topdressed with BAS BuildAFlower when they made it to 7G pots, and I also just topdressed yesterday with a blend of BuildAFlower, ground up malted/sprouted barley, and BAS Craft Blend.

So everything has been going GREAT up to this point (day 15 flower, veg for 7.5 weeks), from what I can tell at least. Strains (all Ace Seeds) are Thai Chi, Honduras x Panama, Nepal Jam, and Violeta. The HxP is what’s giving me problems. It’s by far the most vigorous in terms of branching and leaves, and I’m wondering if it hasn’t depleted most of the nutrients in the soil at this point. Over the past couple of weeks, I’ve noticed the HxP yellowing a bit over the entire plant. It seems to be between the leaf margins and older leaves. Just yesterday during my topdressing/watering, I had to prune some dead/dying leaves that were totally yellow and had a few brown spots. These leaves mainly came from the bottom interior, but I can notice that the yellowing seems to be moving up the plant.
The kicker is that everyone else seems to be doing just fine foliage-wise. So I’m not sure why only the HxP would be exhibiting symptoms of N deficiency – unless it has indeed depleted the soil since it’s the largest by far.

I’m just looking for some feedback as to what my problem looks like and, if so, what ya’ll would recommend for a fast-acting organic source of N. I’m thinking blood meal just for that plant for the next couple waterings, if so?

Happy to provide a ton more pics/info if needed, thanks!

Pics are: HxP couple days before switching to flower, overall tent shot couple days before switching to flower, overall tent shot ten days ago, HxP and Thai Chi nine days ago, overall tent shot yesterday, HxP and Thai Chi yesterday, close up of HxP leaves I pruned yesterday.
 

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FletchF.Fletch

Well-known member
420giveaway
Are you testing ph and ec of your nutrient solution once mixed? Also test both values of your runoff, the water that runs out the bottom when you water. If the soil ph has been made too acidic, nutrient lockout will occur. When it happens, it shows up as deficiencies. If your runoff looks like weak tea, you're probably good, if it looks like strong coffee, it's too rich. Flush with water if that's the case. A cheap ec meter is worth it's weight in perfect nug.
 

afman916

Member
Admittedly no I’m not, and it’s something I’ve been considering (BlueLabs pH and EC pen) since a few weeks into veg. I consistently pH’d the Deer Park for the first 6 or 6 times; 7 on the money with a liquid pH kit every time. So I assumed I could carry that forward, assumed the spring water was high enough ppm for cal/mag/etc, and assumed my amendments would buffer pH down to say, 6.5 or so.

I also thought none of this mattered TOO much in organic soil as opposed to other mediums. But I could be wrong.

I also don’t water that much that I have a ton of runoff, as again I thought that was somewhat antithetical to organic soil grow. I can say that the minor runoff I do have, I’d describe as looking exactly like weak tea.
 

afman916

Member
And thank you! Fourth grow and really thought I had things dialed in perfectly - which is weird, I did up until a week or so ago (at least as far as I can tell from my pics?)
 

moses wellfleet

Well-known member
Moderator
Veteran
Have you changed anything to do with lighting, there are issues related to the spectrum of LEDs that look similar to this and seem to be showing up more often?
 

noknees

Member
So I assumed I could carry that forward, assumed the spring water was high enough ppm for cal/mag/etc, and assumed my amendments would buffer pH down to say, 6.5 or so.

I also thought none of this mattered TOO much in organic soil as opposed to other mediums. But I could be wrong.

I also don’t water that much that I have a ton of runoff

no dolomite in your mix?

assumptions about your water?

500 watts of LED (in a 3x3?!) but no watering can?

two quarts of water into a seven gallon flower pot every four days? that's a typo, right?
 

afman916

Member
Have you changed anything to do with lighting, there are issues related to the spectrum of LEDs that look similar to this and seem to be showing up more often?

Haven't changed anything with lighting other than to adjust each ballast individually to hit ~70k at the highest buds/branches (which are the sativas), which gives majority of the plants and the lower sections of the sativas roughly 45-60k.

I realize two of these 240w in a 3x3 is most likely overkill, but I've been adjusting them meticulously to hit recommended light levels all throughout the grow. Unless it turns out I'm having a problem due to too much light, I'm really happy that i went this route. Incredible coverage and penetration and everything has been growing like...weeds.
 

afman916

Member
no dolomite in your mix?
Used BuildASoil's mineral mix 2.0 (from website) -
BuildASoil Basalt - Our Favorite Rock Dust for
trace minerals. Highly paramagnetic.
Gypsum Flour Pellets - Calcium and Sulfur
Oyster Shell Flour - Calcium Carbonate - Adds
available calcium and limes the Peat moss.
Glacial Rock Dust
BuildASoil Premium Montomorillonite


assumptions about your water?
admittedly yes - assuming something like Deer Park spring water would be about as best a base as possible for living organic soil. Obviously checking ppm/EC is best, and I still will probably end up going down this route - if not to finish out this grow, then definitely next. What conflicts in my mind is the fact that a number of grows go off without a hitch without needing to get that granular with everything. Like the "FFOF plus bottled nutes in tap water" grows. I guess I was just under the impression that organic living soil helps buffer all of that, the need to check every little value.

500 watts of LED (in a 3x3?!) but no watering can?
Not sure what you mean here? I had a watering can (still do) but don't like the how it waters, in terms of how much force the water has behind it and also that I can't get right down close to the soil. My little quart water bottle actually works really well, allowing me to get right down at soil level and disperse the water pretty evenly.

two quarts of water into a seven gallon flower pot every four days? that's a typo, right?
Nope although it's actually more like every 3 days. So a half gallon every three days, call it a gallon a week. I've noticed no symptoms of underwatering though? In fact quite the opposite (I think) in that the leaves are perpetually praying; I don't notice any drooping, wilting, etc. that would seem to indicate under or overwatering.
 

moses wellfleet

Well-known member
Moderator
Veteran
You need 50 posts before you can edit.

Ok just trying to eliminate other factors. The LED issue would be most visible and pronounced on tips of branches closest to light, so if you said yellowing is happening from the bottom upwards, then that is not consistent with LED 'bleaching.'

I must agree with Noknees that the amount of water you are using sounds very low, considering container size and relative humidity.
 

afman916

Member
Didn't know that about editing, thanks.

And yeah I'm with you on the bleaching; I've been keeping a close eye as I know I've got a lot of wattage in there. But the leaves in question (that I pulled) are definitely lower on the plant.

And again, agree with ya'll on the water. I've had my fair share of overwatering nightmares so I'm making a conscious effort to err of the side of too little and let the plants tell me. So I know it doesn't sound like much, but I'm really not seeing signs of them being underwatered. I guess I could increase for a few waterings and monitor for changes?

What really confounds me is that the other three plants are seemingly doing just fine.

Root zone (i.e. outside of smart pots and top of mulch) is measuring 66 on IR therm. Tallest branches/buds read 74. I'm wondering if my root zone is a touch too cool and that's what's allowing me to conserve water in addition to the mulching? But I feel like 75-77 ambient with a 66-67 degree root zone sounds pretty comfortable?
 

moses wellfleet

Well-known member
Moderator
Veteran
All the plants appear too yellow to me with the big one worst off. Maybe another question is drainage and roots receiving enough oxygen?
 

afman916

Member
I had thought of that too, as I battled poor drainage last grow...

Thing is, I followed the standard recipe to a tee, making sure I was choosing what I thought were best inputs for each:

3 cu ft Peat Moss
1 cu ft Coarse Perlite
1 cu ft Pumice
1 cu ft Rice Hulls
1 cu ft Lobster Compost
1 cu ft EWC
1 cu ft blend pinto/Malibu/fish compost

Plants have been in this blend since leaving their seedling cups; so they spent time in 1/2G, 1G, and 3G pots in this blend. Each time I transplanted the roots were craaaazy healthy-looking, thick and bright white.

In fact, when I went from 3G to 7G, I was surprised at how much root mass I transplanted. I was anticipating having more space for fresh soil in the 7G, but I pulled out every bit of 3G soil/root mass from the 3G...I thought about really breaking up the mass and shaking loose some of the soil to make more room for fresh, but was hesitant to rough up the roots too much considering how well things had been going to that point.

There's this nagging part of me that really thinks they're starting to deplete the soil nutrients, with the big girl being most symptomatic due to her size. But again, this is only my fourth grow so I am 100% still in "learn as I go" mode.

Brings up a question I've had in the back of my mind as I look at pics trying to diagnose my problem - should healthy plants be relatively dark green, irrespective of strain? I thought I had read where some equatorial sativas tend towards more of a lime green, which is why I think I may have been possibly ignoring symptoms on the big girl, incorrectly attributing her light color to genetics.
 

afman916

Member
Thanks all - think I'll add a little blood meal and CalMag to this upcoming watering and see how it goes. Might also manipulate tent ventilation/2nd floor thermostat to hit...what, 78-79? I know 85 is kind of the threshold for too hot. I was operating under the assumption that 75 was just about ideal.

And I agree TanzanianMagic, in looking back at that one picture it does look like a mag deficiency...

Just not sure why only one plant would be exhibiting it.

Spider mites from the straw, that thought never even crossed my mind! I'll go do a little research on spider mite symptoms...
 

afman916

Member
Hmmmm, ok thank you. I haven't really noticed any of that while tending to them, so I don't think it's spider mites.

What I can also say is that I know the roots have been growing pretty well, as I've actually noticed bright white tips poking out of the side of the smart pots here and there - neat to see the air pruning in action. Anyway, I guess all I'm trying to say is I don't really think it's a root-related issue. I think they're healthy there under the soil, just perhaps not getting what they need?

Deficiencies show on older leaves and lockout shows on new growth, correct? Because the new growth looks the best on this particular girl.
 

FletchF.Fletch

Well-known member
420giveaway
What is the ph of your solution after you mix in your nutrients and additives?

Also, not to be a broken record, check ph and ec of runoff. No need for a top of the line meter, you just want to get a feel for the strength of your solutiom going in, and your runoff coming out. This will tell you a ton about what's going on inside the rootball. Basically, you do not want it to get worse so measuring a few things will tell you what the problem is. Too acidic, it is lockout, within range, needs more Nitrogen, Calcium, Magnesium. It's like when a baby cries, it can mean several different things: I'm hungry, I'm sleepy, I need a diaper change, or My new tooth hurts. All they can do is cry to let us know they need help. Similarly, leaf problems can mimic one another. Measuring removes much of the guesswork.

Hope this helps, they look great just need to identify which it is and they will bounce back and reward you for your effort and attention to their needs.
 
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