Dudding / Perpetual Sick Plants

[Fakir710]

Dudding is a virus also known as Hop Latent Viroid. Once you got it you cant do much. If you have genetics that you cant lose send cuts for meristem culture. People got lazy and did not quarantine incoming cuts, keep tools clean. Once you use your tools on an infected cut and do not clean it your passing it to every plant that touched that tool.

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Yeah have seen tons of videos, threads and read lots of news about it as well... The problem comes when we send samples to a lab and they tested negative. Maybe we sent just uninfected parts. Maybe another Viroid/virus causing it? Maybe they need different primer for the PCR test?

*edit: Im gonna attatch this video along with other links to the first post.

Ive seen it pass from seed as well bro.... Mine came from a plant who was displaying symptoms... This was almost 10 years ago and haven't seen it since... its a nothing to play around with ...it spreads as easy as water drops hitting leaves and Bam...It's good you've become good at identifying it so easy now.. that's how u really start eliminating it from your rooms

Shit, my buddy Muad' told me he had some looklike plants so many time ago as well from seeds, but maybe it wasn't so present and the clone scene wasnt so crazy active that it didn't spreaded as fast as right now. Lots of people arguing with this. European seedbanks as well... Yeah looks like it spread crazy fast, and yeah I'm understanding it better and seeing how it affects in veg, but sometimes i even doubt myself because this stuff is so weird...

I've harvested so many pounds of Hay because of this shit... I mean honestly you get more lit smoking pure Ditch Hemp... It changed my life forever and never looked at clones the same again.... to me everything is a walking petri dish full of problems... paranoia x10...Id take every visible enemy all at once over this issue...

Where Im at in SoCal....the Cuts are just str8 up nasty nasty nasty ....never worth it... seed game is where its anyways... if your looking for these Stupid Exotics everyone wants to throw their money at.....

For real i've tried better hemp than the affected plants, just end beign garbage, can't even make decent hash from it... Im changing all my propagation game radically, bought a gal of pure isopropyl alcohol for surfaces and scissors. No matter about exotics or not, i like to try everything, even if i got pure hay from some landrace seeds, i understand it because is possible, and appreciate the plants as well. But this shit in my selected clones never happened before...

 

[Dankwolf]

Have you checked soil for fungas gantz ?

 

[Fakir710]

Have you checked soil for fungas gantz ?

I think you really need to have a lot of fungus gnatz for beign so fucked up, I know of people that has a little fungus gnatz for years with succesfull grows. Sometimes it comes even with soil bags... :/

 

[Fakir710]

 

[Hammerhead]

Yeah have seen tons of videos, threads and read lots of news about it as well... The problem comes when we send samples to a lab and they tested negative. Maybe we sent just uninfected parts. Maybe another Viroid/virus causing it? Maybe they need different primer for the PCR test?

*edit: Im gonna attatch this video along with other links to the first post.



Shit, my buddy Muad' told me he had some looklike plants so many time ago as well from seeds, but maybe it wasn't so present and the clone scene wasnt so crazy active that it didn't spreaded as fast as right now. Lots of people arguing with this. European seedbanks as well... Yeah looks like it spread crazy fast, and yeah I'm understanding it better and seeing how it affects in veg, but sometimes i even doubt myself because this stuff is so weird...



For real i've tried better hemp than the affected plants, just end beign garbage, can't even make decent hash from it... Im changing all my propagation game radically, bought a gal of pure isopropyl alcohol for surfaces and scissors. No matter about exotics or not, i like to try everything, even if i got pure hay from some landrace seeds, i understand it because is possible, and appreciate the plants as well. But this shit in my selected clones never happened before...

The tools we have for this issue are limited. All you can do is test or just have everything sent for culture. Anytime a new cut comes in send it for culture 1st.

 

[Fakir710]

The tools we have for this issue are limited. All you can do is test or just have everything sent for culture. Anytime a new cut comes in send it for culture 1st.

Yeah i know, unfortunately this is just possible in legal states and is not very cheap. Sadly not an option for everybody.

 

[redlaser]

I would do a slurry test of the soil, check the ph and ec, as well as check the runoff ec and ph. Maybe you have done this already. Also would consider testing the water source, even though you are using an RO on it. I used to have issues after 60 days in a cycle, and after testing the water it had 390 ppm chloride from a poorly supplied well water source.

 

[Fakir710]

I would do a slurry test of the soil, check the ph and ec, as well as check the runoff ec and ph. Maybe you have done this already. Also would consider testing the water source, even though you are using an RO on it. I used to have issues after 60 days in a cycle, and after testing the water it had 390 ppm chloride from a poorly supplied well water source.

Hey, thanks for answering. Will do again in the veg room for trying in the next weeks, the flowers got no salvation... Anyway, my water source comes from public water system and it's drinking water. I even drink it sometimes, i use R/O because it comes at 700ppm and after R/O its 5ppm. Anyway, this has nothing to do with a lockout or salts build up or toxicity. The infected plants aren't capable of produce metabolites. I've seen not infected plants perform better than this under worse conditions and high stress levels...

 

[Fakir710]

I've been sharing clones with some friends 3 months ago because they need to flower something, they grew in coco, the grow was looking amazing, indeed i was smoking some flowers and the final product was supergood, but some other jars were pure garbage...

Last weeks of flowering he told me something weird was happening to some clones and i made him a visit. He had 5 GhostRider clones from same mom. 2 of them looks like shit and smells like hay. The other three plant are rock hard buds covered in resin wich smell like they should. 5 clones from my Mandarina mom and same, 1 was hay, the other 4 stunning and tasty flowers... About 20 percent of his room dudded. The problem looks like mine, same problem same shit, same times... Thats why this is systemic and latent.

edit:* I gave 4 different clones to another friend 4 month ago. He grows in soil.
He lost one, grew 3. Two of them are fire as they are supossed to. 1 Is pure hay and shit.

:/

Regards.

 

[Fakir710]

Hey amigos, took a look the other day to root system with the scope and didnt find nothing weird, no aphids, no fungus or mold. Not enough potent to see nematodes, but nothing weird, just a poor root developement compared to two years ago due to this weird thing...

 

[vulcanofilo]

Hello from Spain.

Tienes uno o varios virus.

Yo estoy igual, no vas a poder limpiar solo con alcohol, tampoco con glutalhadeido , amonio cuaternario... .

Mira las fotos de bancos y piensa ..

Por aquí está muy extenso, pero casi nadie se da cuenta.

 

[Fakir710]

Hello from Spain.

Tienes uno o varios virus.

Yo estoy igual, no vas a poder limpiar solo con alcohol, tampoco con glutalhadeido , amonio cuaternario... .

Mira las fotos de bancos y piensa ..

Por aquí está muy extenso, pero casi nadie se da cuenta.

Hola Vulcanofilo, yo también soy de Spain, si quieres hablamos por MP, he leído posts tuyos en cannabis café y en thc Talk, no lo estoy intentando limpiar, había pensado en tirar todo excepto los clone only y cosas que no puedo volver a tener y ponerlos en cuarentena, aunque sea mantenerlos enfermos por si algún día quiero poner un par de ramas para fumar en armarios separados... Aunque no se si es viable, puesto que
que si tuviera alguna plaga que pasara de un armario a otro me podría infectar todo lo nuevo también. Yo ya lo he visto en semillas de Delicious...

Desde cuando tienes problemas?

Saludos

 

[MoeFunk]

The small leaves are a dead giveaway. If it were me I'd assume I have a dud regardless of what any tests say. If fact just tossed a new cut I got because it looked like that. Didn't even flower it out. Duds are easy to spot once you've had them. Tests don't mean shit imo. A 'dud' could be caused by different things. HPLVD is only one virus that has been supposedly confirmed. Doesn't mean it's the only one that can infect and cause similar problems for a plant.

Trash everything that is showing symptoms. Everything that is growing normally you can keep, but each needs to be separated. Don't let any foliage touch other plants. Sterilize any pots, drip trays, tools before and after use with each plant. If you have fungus gnats, they can also transfer the disease. After a couple cycles with no new symptoms, you can go back to normal gardening practices. Handle all that, and you can eradicate the disease and keep genetics. I've done it.

 

[vulcanofilo]

Yo lo he intentado de todas formas casi me intoxico un par de veces limpiando todo he utilizado agua oxigenada ion plata alcohol lejía cloro azufre glutaraldehido amonio cuaternario y no he conseguido nada.si lo has tenido en tu casa es muy difícil que puedas volver a librarte de ellos están por todos sitios en la puerta en la ropa en tu grindr en tu papel en tu cajita suelo techo ventiladores........ Lo más difícil va a ser encontrar semillas que vengan de un banco certificada libre de virus porque la foto de todos los bancos muestran síntomas llevo 5 o 6 años luchando contra esto y lo he intentado todo he cambiado luces armario ventiladores sustratos abonos tijera todo lo que os podáis imaginar y lo he hecho varias veces algunas veces tengo cosecha más o menos exitosas , otra vez es un completo fracaso.
El problema me lo he buscado yo solito intercambiando genéticas intercambiando semilla dejando que gente entre a ver...

La solución no las va a dar monsanto, con sus semillas transgénicas

 

[Principante8]

When my plants were dudding 5 or so years ago I had leaf, stem, and root samples analyzed at a lab and they tested positive for fusarium oxysporum.

Look closely at the base of the stem (not under grow light) on the affected plants. Does it seem a tinge red or pink and/or perhaps a lighter shade of green than normal, and just less solid and lively looking? Poke the stem at the soil line with something sharp and poke a healthy unaffected plant and see if it's less rigid. Roots will sometimes be a tiny bit pink as well and quantity is waaaay less. Once it sets in pythium is soon to follow so roots will turn brownish and get super soft.

In veg the stems are hard, slow growth, abnormal node spacing, and tiny fan leaves compared to normal. Some plants 'appear' to be less affected or unaffected. When I had it I was able to minimize the effects in veg by choosing only the strongest clones at the top of the healthiest looking plants. This came back to haunt me in flower however because at day 35-45 depending on the cultivar and the health of each individual plant, the pathogen would take complete control and turn the crop to hay within a few days to a week tops. I couldn't beat it. If you have this i would recommend to throw everything away including filters etc that aren't a solid surface that can be cleaned with physan 20. Yes this means all clones, mother plants, and fabric pots, etc.

I moved, started from seed, and bought all new gear with the exception of my plastic tables and lights which I dipped in or wiped clean with physan20. I had a good crop and thought I had it beat but unfortunately a few of the seeds I sprouted were from an infected cut of SoCal Master Kush. I loved the MK because it helped my back pain and insomnia better than anything else I've ever tried so I didn't want to lose ir and sprouted the seeds. The next round showed signs of the pathogen on very few plants and I had about a 25% reduction in yield and quality was maybe 9/10. The third round was almost fully dudded again. There were about 15 cultivars (strains) in the garden that I chose from about 200 seeds and all of them had succumbed to the fusarium by round three. I threw everything away and started from seed again but this time none of my own.

I spent another couple grand on another couple hundred seeds. There were lots of winners in the seed packs (about 350-400 seeds total) Probably about 12-15 that are every bit as good as any 'elite' clones you can pick up in socal like Cookies, top Ogs, mendo breath etc, and another two dozen that were really great (quality on par with blue dream, green crack, tangie, OG hybrids, etc) but not quite AAA+. Most of the famous elite clones aren't grown perfectly so if you have something a step down but grown perfectly customers will appreciate it more than half assed grown elites. So two packs of seeds should net you a couple keepers and can be found in one round. After that everything should go back to normal.

All in all I lost about 6-7 crops. Two 48kw, one 22kw, three 17kw, one, 12 kw, one six kw. Notice a trend in the reduction of wattage? It's hard to pay the overhead when cash isn't coming in. I kept thinking I had it beat with perfect vegging plants flowering vigorous until week 6-7 until finally I broke down and bought the seeds. I learned the hard way with zero guidance which is why I share. Good luck to you. I hope you don't have what I did but whatever it is I hope you will be able to overcome it. There is sooo much good weed out there today so consider not getting caught up in clone only status or your attachment to a particular cultivar because it might come back to bite you like it did me. When I was buying seeds 20 years ago it was hard to come by real winners but today it's easy.

 

[Principante8]

I wonder if anyone else with dudding plants had fusarium oxysporum turn up in their test results?

 

[vulcanofilo]

Llevo muchos años estudiando y sufriendo este problema.
Para mí se a convertido en un reto, y leo todo los trabajos y noticias que salen.

Estoy seguro que mi problema y el de muchos no es un hongo, ya que hay una replicación fallida del ADN, al coexistir virus y plantas.

Si es verdad que la planta de debilita, y es más fácil el ataque de otros patógenos, pero los hongos son tratables con fungicidas,...

 

[vulcanofilo]

Fakir, ..

Ya veo que as leído y buscado mucho, ambos hemos hecho un largo viaje y encontrado la misma información, mira que lejos hemos coincidido,
Yo también he cambiado todo el sistema de iluminación, de ventilación, macetas mesas armarios...
Al igual que muchos otros antes que nosotros y que también han fracasado.

Como ya sabes es un problema extendido por todo el mundo y que está oculto a los ojos de la gente.
Todavía están pensando en ácaros anchos y falta de calcio y magnesio.
Otro enseñan su cosecha fallida como si fueran buenas y nunca han visto una planta sana.

 

[vulcanofilo]

Me gustaría un charla contigo fakir

 

[Fakir710]

The small leaves are a dead giveaway. If it were me I'd assume I have a dud regardless of what any tests say. If fact just tossed a new cut I got because it looked like that. Didn't even flower it out. Duds are easy to spot once you've had them. Tests don't mean shit imo. A 'dud' could be caused by different things. HPLVD is only one virus that has been supposedly confirmed. Doesn't mean it's the only one that can infect and cause similar problems for a plant.

Trash everything that is showing symptoms. Everything that is growing normally you can keep, but each needs to be separated. Don't let any foliage touch other plants. Sterilize any pots, drip trays, tools before and after use with each plant. If you have fungus gnats, they can also transfer the disease. After a couple cycles with no new symptoms, you can go back to normal gardening practices. Handle all that, and you can eradicate the disease and keep genetics. I've done it.

Beign something that could be more than just one thing, i think its a risk saving mother plants that you know had it even making extended and radical renovation practices. The fact that i spreaded it alog all my mother plants during a full year with bad cloning practices and not the most sterile protocols doesn't help. I have been arguing with this without having no clue of what was happening, so mostly i touched all the plants with the same scissors for a year without knowing about this.

I think the smartest thing is toss everything out and sterelize my whole life even my soul if there's some left...

Starting again from seed is not that bad. Lot of fun to come and new flavours to taste...

When my plants were dudding 5 or so years ago I had leaf, stem, and root samples analyzed at a lab and they tested positive for fusarium oxysporum.

Well Principante thanks for coming in and sharing your experience by here. First thing they told me in the lab is that i could have some kinf of vascular fungi. Fusarium, Phytium or Verticillium could be a hand to hand disease when it comes to HpLVD, There are several types of Fusarium Oxysporum and all of them cause several symptoms, as dudding doesn't look like a severe fungical disease it could cause plant inmuno system to weak and become a nice and warm home to opportunistic host.

Fusarium is something to be afraid of, also called Green Agent, it was planned to use it in the war against drugs over coca and other drug crops over 2000's.

Its effects could be the some of the worst, and i think its hard sanitize things with spores...

Even there is some cures for fungical diseases, spores travel in the air, whoever lives and grows close to nature or veg/outdoor crops are prone to get more fungical diseases, pests, etc...

Si es verdad que la planta de debilita, y es más fácil el ataque de otros patógenos, pero los hongos son tratables con fungicidas,...

Como ya sabes es un problema extendido por todo el mundo y que está oculto a los ojos de la gente.
Todavía están pensando en ácaros anchos y falta de calcio y magnesio.
Otro enseñan su cosecha fallida como si fueran buenas y nunca han visto una planta sana.

Hola Vulcanofilo, siempre es bueno intercambiar informacion y experiencias, muchas gracias por escribir, he intentado investigar un poco sobre el tema si, pero por culpa de la falta de informacion, fuentes poco fiables o no oficiales, opiniones muy contradictorias y experiencias de gente no profesional y con poca experiencia, como yo, he de decir que es muy complicado llegar a una conclusion y sentenciar algo claro me parece realmente dificil. Son tantas las variantes y las diferentes causas y efectos, que el hecho de descartar cualquier otra problema el causante del dudding y pensar que solo es una, sigue pareciendome mala idea.

El problema es que una vez la planta esta debilitada es mucho mas facil tener broadmites, thrips, fungus gnats, spidermites, tambien fusarium u otros hongos vasculares, ya que no puede defenderse contra ello.

Por mucho que los hongos puedan tratarse, si la fuente de infeccion es externa o ajena al cultivo, que es una posibilidad, puedes seguir teniendo problemas una vez todo se ha renovado y esterilizado.

El problema que yo veo es que no se puede intercambiar genetica en forma de clones, que algunas semillas poco fiables pueden venir enfermas y que esto cambia la dificultad del juego. Habrá que plantear nuevos protocolos, nuevas formas de trabajo y sobretodo ser limpio y esteril.

Saludos.