Can't figure this deficiency out

[ButterflyEffect]

I'll get more pics up very soon that show the whole plant. This was just what I was able to grab so I could post.

So it looks like either Manganese or Calcium. I've always struggled with certain deficiencies.

Here's the details of the run...

Time - Day 30 of flower (This has been happening for a week now)
Strain - Seedsman Bruce Banger (They're all clones and there are 7 of them in the run, all identical)
Method - Hempy 1G pots with a 4:1 Perlite & Vermiculite mix
Fertigation & feed - Jacks Hydro 2 part (No extra Mg) / pH at 5.6-5.8 / Fed to runoff twice during lights on
Lights - Vertical grow with 2 stacked 315CMHs
Environment - 78-80F lights on / 70F lights off / RH @ 55-60% / Extractor cycles the air every 15 mins.

I'm stumped because this is the only one showing this. There's nothing near the plant like a light leak or fans or AC that would be a factor and none of these plants had any issues in veg.

If I'm missing any info to help, please let me know.

Thanks in advance folks.

 

[Creeperpark]

I'll get more pics up very soon that show the whole plant. This was just what I was able to grab so I could post.

So it looks like either Manganese or Calcium. I've always struggled with certain deficiencies.

Here's the details of the run...

Time - Day 30 of flower (This has been happening for a week now)
Strain - Seedsman Bruce Banger (They're all clones and there are 7 of them in the run, all identical)
Method - Hempy 1G pots with a 4:1 Perlite & Vermiculite mix
Fertigation & feed - Jacks Hydro 2 part (No extra Mg) / pH at 5.6-5.8 / Fed to runoff twice during lights on
Lights - Vertical grow with 2 stacked 315CMHs
Environment - 78-80F lights on / 70F lights off / RH @ 55-60% / Extractor cycles the air every 15 mins.

I'm stumped because this is the only one showing this. There's nothing near the plant like a light leak or fans or AC that would be a factor and none of these plants had any issues in veg.

If I'm missing any info to help, please let me know.

Thanks in advance folks.

What kind of water are you using? Tap, RO,

 

[ButterflyEffect]

What kind of water are you using? Tap, RO,

Aah! The one missing detail.

Rain water. TDS is about 30ppm

 

[ButterflyEffect]

I checked runoff and the ppm is close to the input. Around 850. I forgot to check the pH of the runoff, so I'll do that tonight.

Follow-up pictures of the plant...

 

[Creeperpark]

Looks like you are needing calcium. If you add about 10 ml of cal-mag to 5 gallons of rainwater about 8 hrs before using, you will give the plant enough calcium. RO and Rainwater have to be buffered when using. My starting rainwater after adding cal-mag is 129 ppm from 7 ppm.

 

[Creeperpark]

Three reasons I let the cal-mag set 8 to 12 hrs before using. The first is so the molecules will reach equilibrium and bond. Second, I want a good pH reading from water that's stable. Third I want the water to be the same temp as room temperature. Outdoor rainwater can get very cold and needs time to warm up because it can shock the plant.

 

[Creeperpark]

Rainwater is about 5.5 pH when it hits the rain barrel. So if you don't add a buffer the pH will be too low over time. Lack of calcium and a low pH will cause the calcium to be unavailable. One can have a good amount of calcium in the mix and have a low pH and the calcium will not be available. I think that's your problem.

 

[ButterflyEffect]

Rainwater is about 5.5 pH when it hits the rain barrel. So if you don't add a buffer the pH will be too low over time. Lack of calcium and a low pH will cause the calcium to be unavailable. One can have a good amount of calcium in the mix and have a low pH and the calcium will not be available. I think that's your problem.

You make some interesting points to ponder creeper.

I guess the next thing is how do I go about integrating this idea. My water runs into 3 275 gallon tanks that are all connected together so they act as one. There's a well pump in one of them that goes to a pressure tank and then a 3 stage filtration setup and then finally a UV filter. There's also a first flush on the input.

With that in mind, I'm not sure how I would go about dosing the tanks. Especially when their volume can vary depending on rainfall. Plus getting to the actual tanks themselves isn't terribly easy.

Now from there, I have PEX running throughout the structure. Each room has a 27 gallon tote that acts as a res for each of the 3 flower rooms. I fill each res every 4 days. I mix in the feed at the same time. The feed is Jacks Hydro, but I mix up concentrate gallons at a specific weight that never changes(300g per gallon). From there I know exactly how many milliliters of solution I need to achieve my target PPM. I also spot check each gallon twice during its use to make sure the numbers still match, as I've found that the Jacks Part A has a tendency to vary for some reason. CalNit is always dead on. I pH adjust(almost always up) from there to about 5.8(5.5 in Veg). If I let the pH go higher, I usually wind up with deficiencies, but that was when I was adding extra Mg(I no longer do as Jacks has plenty.

I always knew my water was the problem. I'm toying with running a line from the house well to this structure and putting a blend tank in. Not too sure yet as it's a bit of work.

Odd that it would only show up on one of them, though. I will say that I've always dealt with Ca issues here. That's why I was thinking about the blend tank idea, plus I wouldn't run the risk of running out of water and I could get away from the Hempy pots, which bring their own issues. Likely I'd do some other DTW setup where the CEC isn't an issue.

Sorry for the long-winded response. I really appreciate your help on this. Any other thoughts you can add would be wonderful!

 

[ButterflyEffect]

A few other things I forgot to mention.

I cut the extra Mg because I was watching it antagonize the Calcium.

Also, When I fill up each res, it's at least 6-8 hours before the pump feeds the room, so they're already at room temp.

 

[Creeperpark]

By using cal-mag, in the RO or Rain, the calcium and magnesium are set at a perfect ratio for plants without antagonizing the mix. You may be ok using your mix if you only have one plant out of all of them, and the rest are doing well. I always buffer my water to keep the calcium and magnesium at the right ratio when using pure water.

 

[120Octane]

Man lmao alot of way off so far of the issue its hilarious..

Hear is the correct answer...You have calcium freckles, see those rust color spots..This is caused because you do not have enough boron to allow the calcium to work...

Yes you are showing excess calcium...cal mag is not gonna fix it and niether will magnesium.....Get you some borax and add it at .12G a gallon and it will clear up...btw pluck those leafs showing damged they are hosed and no good now..

​

 

[ButterflyEffect]

Man lmao alot of way off so far of the issue its hilarious..

Hear is the correct answer...You have calcium freckles, see those rust color spots..This is caused because you do not have enough boron to allow the calcium to work...

Yes you are showing excess calcium...cal mag is not gonna fix it and niether will magnesium.....Get you some borax and add it at .12G a gallon and it will clear up...btw pluck those leafs showing damged they are hosed and no good now..

​

I've been trying a MOST foliar to see if it were an issue with a micro. I do have borax so I'll give that a try. So odd that it would only affect one plant. Thanks!

 

[ButterflyEffect]

By using cal-mag, in the RO or Rain, the calcium and magnesium are set at a perfect ratio for plants without antagonizing the mix. You may be ok using your mix if you only have one plant out of all of them, and the rest are doing well. I always buffer my water to keep the calcium and magnesium at the right ratio when using pure water.

Thanks man. I think I'll be ok as it's not very easy to get to the tanks and when I setup each res, it's mixed and pH'd and then sits for 6-8 hours before use.

 

[TanzanianMagic]

That's phosphorus deficiency or lockout. I don't know what the PPM is.

 

[ButterflyEffect]

That's phosphorus deficiency or lockout. I don't know what the PPM is.

PPM is 800. Runoff is roughly the same. Now I'm getting 3 different possibilities. This is part of what makes diagnosing plant issues so difficult.

You're saying Phosphorus, Another is saying Calcium, and yet one more is saying that Boron is holding back the Ca.

Very frustrating to say the least.

 

[exploziv]

Not a typical deficiency either. I had that recently and I put it as Iron + Ca, maybe some P as well. Intense leds and quite low feed in my case.

 

[ButterflyEffect]

Not a typical deficiency either. I had that recently and I put it as Iron + Ca, maybe some P as well. Intense leds and quite low feed in my case.

The plot thickens!

I'm feeding at about 800ppms. Runoff is roughly the same. It's just odd that it's only this plant. They're all a clone of the same plant. I'm aware of the LED phenomenon. I'm running CMHs in flower. This did start to happen a few days after flip. They're at day 15 now.

I've been alternating foliars, (MOST & MKP) to see if there's any change. It doesn't seem like it's getting any worse, but it's hard to tell.

 

[TanzanianMagic]

PPM is 800. Runoff is roughly the same. Now I'm getting 3 different possibilities. This is part of what makes diagnosing plant issues so difficult.

You're saying Phosphorus, Another is saying Calcium, and yet one more is saying that Boron is holding back the Ca.

Very frustrating to say the least.

All I can say for sure is that this is phosphorus deficiency/lockout.

https://www.greenboxgrown.com/phosphorus-deficiency

The blotchy patches are in the right place of the leaf, one of the leaves is curled upward, and the deficiency is mobile in that the higher up the plant the less the damage. Calcium is a non-mobile deficiency that is mainly limited to the tops of the plant, and sometimes a large leaf that sticks out lower on the plant.

Phosphate is locked out by: potassium, calcium, copper, iron, zinc.

https://static.occnewspaper.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/NutrientAntagonism-2-800x570.jpg

There is a Jack's Hydro that has a high K level. I'd have to know exactly which of the many, many Jack's Hydro, and specifically the NPK.

 

[ButterflyEffect]

All I can say for sure is that this is phosphorus deficiency/lockout.

https://www.greenboxgrown.com/phosphorus-deficiency

The blotchy patches are in the right place of the leaf, one of the leaves is curled upward, and the deficiency is mobile in that the higher up the plant the less the damage. Calcium is a non-mobile deficiency that is mainly limited to the tops of the plant, and sometimes a large leaf that sticks out lower on the plant.

Phosphate is locked out by: potassium, calcium, copper, iron, zinc.

https://static.occnewspaper.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/NutrientAntagonism-2-800x570.jpg

There is a Jack's Hydro that has a high K level. I'd have to know exactly which of the many, many Jack's Hydro, and specifically the NPK.

I'm inclined to say that you're spot on.

I'm pretty sure I know why but I don't know the best way to fix it. I run Hempy pots with perlite & vermiculite and I push the feed out to runoff at lights on and then again 6 hours later. I know that P leaches out very quickly in a medium like mine. Combine that with the ramped up need for P in early flower and we have recipe for disaster.

I've also noticed that, not only in this run, which is at day 30 but also the other one that's at day 15, the older leaves snap off very easily and there's a slight purpling to the stems and petioles.

I just adjusted my cycle timers to add a 3rd feed. So now it's one at lights on, a second 4 hours later, and a third fours hours after that. I can add more if needed.

I really want to get away from the hempy pots but I'm not sure what the best media and method would be. I have to be careful because I can't switch to something that uses more water than I use now. I only get so much rain and until I address that, I have to be cautious.

Do you have any other suggestions for getting more P quickly? I'm going to foliar with MKP tonight as a start, although I'm concerned about the added K.

Thanks for the help!

 

[ButterflyEffect]

The Jacks I use is the 5-12-26. 3-2 ratio with CalNit. No added Mg. pH to 5.5-5.8