PH shift or waterlogged

[InsaneMembrane]

So I had two things going on at the same time

1) watered with pH 8.0 water
2) raise in humidity, 70%

what are we seeing here ?

additional info:

Symptoms appeared almost over night on bottom leaves and started moving upwards.

im using spring water with same soil mix for years, had heavy rains which drove my water to 8.0 (normaly at 7.4). Soil mix always buffered to 6.5. These symptoms appeared right after the rains as I forgot they will spike my water pH like they usually do. My guess is this is a P and Ca and maybe a micro lockout due to a sudden pH swing.

at the same time due to rains my rH spiked to 70% which means the transpiration stalled so my second guess is overwatering. bad transpiration with LED lights can be scary.

which is more likely?

Other info:
35 days of flower on a 8 week strain
600W LED
20L / 5gal fabric pots
Custom super soil performing well over the years for me so i wont go into what’s inside, im quite certain this must be pH / watering related

Actions taken:
let them go a day and a half longer than usual without water and then I watered with 6.4 pHed water. Seems like it has stopped progressing but I am not sure yet.

thanks fellow growers!

 

[InsaneMembrane]

 

[chronosync]

fungus gnats can do this

 

[Creeperpark]

Its not Calcium or Magnesium being locked out with a 8 pH, however you are locking out other macro and micro nutrients. In order to feed the plant the nutrients it needs, you will need to slowly drop the pH to the low 6s or high 5s in order to bring the high 8 to a suitable range. Using organic soil, one can release excess nutrients, just lowering the pH. Very good observation InsaneMebrane you caught it in time to save the grow.

 

[Growenhaft]

you will not be able to impress with a one-time normal irrigation of a slightly too high ph-value of 20l soil in its buffer effect. if so, the earth wouldn't be worth a chanterelle ... I've never come across it.

the ph value of your water rose as the precipitation temporarily reduced the amount of calcium and other mineral substances in your water.

the less calcium should also be verifiable for you. the youngest shoots should also brighten up a bit ... a bright green? that should also be visible in your case.

If so, the best thing to do is to do nothing ... let this little problem spoil your plant ... she will do better than you.

With the size of the medium you should never try to lower the ph value ... every measure that would be necessary for this would result in major problems.

the timing is of course very bad ... during the next 2-3 weeks of all things, the calcium requirement will be highest.

but trust it, if you will work with your usual water again in the future, the plant will recover on its own ... and the medium remained unaffected anyway due to the one-time watering with too little calcium.

it is usually better to let the plant straighten it by itself.
you can see from the way she holds the leaves that she is ready ... because she is vitally tense.

If the medium is too wet, a lack of calcium means that all nutrients are more difficult to absorb ... so it was only a temporary story.

Don't do anything with my tip ... keep watching. don't let yourself be disturbed just because the plant is now separating from a few old leaves ... they don't mean anything. they are just what is called a reserve tank in a car ... just because the tank in your car shows reserve ... would you therefore drive to the workshop? and get your car repaired?

 

[troutman]

pH 8 is too high. Like others mentioned it will cause some nutrients to be locked out.

I like just above pH 6 in the 6.2 - 6.6 range in soil.

 

[TanzanianMagic]

It looks like phosphorus deficiency at first glance. After all, the plants are in flowering.

Notice the upward curling of the leaves, which is typical for phosphorus deficiency.
https://free-the-tree.com/indoor-gro...es/phosphorus/

However, nutrients could simply be locked out, and that is merely showing up as a deficiency in the nutrient the plant is using most of at this phase of flowering.

So I would look at insects first, including mites, which look like tiny grains of dirt that could have splattered up on the leaves during watering. Which is why they're so hard to detect.

im using spring water with same soil mix for years, had heavy rains which drove my water to 8.0 (normaly at 7.4). Soil mix always buffered to 6.5. These symptoms appeared right after the rains as I forgot they will spike my water pH like they usually do. My guess is this is a P and Ca and maybe a micro lockout due to a sudden pH swing.

at the same time due to rains my rH spiked to 70% which means the transpiration stalled so my second guess is overwatering. bad transpiration with LED lights can be scary.

which is more likely?

On the balance of probabilities - I would go with the RH reducing transpiration.

The higher pH isn't that bad in itself. Going from 6.4 pH to somewhere between 6.4pH and 8.0 pH is not a huge disaster in organic growing. If anything, a high pH would lock out non-mobile nutrients, mainly trace elements. NPK are locked out at a low pH.

On on the other hand - if there is something else in the well water that would make it go to a high pH, like extra Calcium, that would lock out phosphorus.

Source: https://www.thcfarmer.com/threads/mulders-chart-and-soil-nutrient-interaction.85641/

So my first investigation would be:

- Phosphorus can get locked out by excess calcium - slow, long flushing with lower pH and PPM water.
- the high RH
- look for mites

 

[InsaneMembrane]

Great answers everybody, very much appreciated!

the spring is located amidst boulders of limestone so my guess is that heavy or longer rains dissolve some of the Ca which spikes our pH.

i know that a one time 8.0 watering probably didnt shake up my soil pH, but what about over time ? Surely watering with my normal 7.4 would raise the soil pH in 5 weeks ? Specially if the water likes to spike after rains? And then the big 8.0 tipped it off the edge that one time.

i looked for gnats and mites etc and couldn’t find anything

Growenhaft yes the tops have turned slightly lime-ish in color since

 

[Growenhaft]

Auf der anderen Seite - wenn etwas anderes im Brunnenwasser einen hohen pH-Wert erreicht, wie zusätzliches Kalzium,

Let's just assume it would be possible to bring more calcium into your spring water through precipitation (calcium as good as 0). what effect does an increase in calcium have on the ph value of the water?
It will not rise ... on the contrary, it will be very stable!

What are the effects if the calcium level in the water drops?
the pH will fluctuate and become unstable.

and now consider the whole thing in connection with 20l of organic soil ... the majority of all growers I know who work organically have no problem watering their plants with a pH value just above 8 without adjustment or lowering. on the contrary ... in organic cultivation it is not necessary to lower the ph value ... because the soil has an enormous buffer effect.

Rinsing in organic cultivation will cause more and more problems than the actual problem at the outset. It is frowned upon! you flush out all the nutrients that have been processed by the soil life ... the medium can therefore not supply your plants ... you end up in a deficiency situation because the soil life sometimes takes a long time to provide all the nutrients.

Rinsing is only really necessary if the medium has been tested ... which is not necessary, since the foliage is clearly vital ... the medium is healthy ... the plant only has to adapt to the new nutrient supply. .. she can do it! Do not intervene ... do not lower the ph ... do not rinse in any case, given the condition of your plants.

 

[InsaneMembrane]

Growenhaft first of all thank you for your time. i will not change the soil in any way and I never rinse, I did a slurry test in the pot that was most affected by symptoms to better understand what is going on and it showed me 6.9 pH when the initial soil started with 6.5. something must have changed the soil buffering capacities over time. How would you explain this shift and do you think it contributed to the end situation ? The plants were very thirsty on the day I watered and given they got 8.0 pH at the time the soil probably couldn’t buffer in time for the nutrients to be taken up correctly which in turn caused the symptoms we are seeing. I guess the plant drank water faster than the soil could buffer since it was thirsty.

If its not Ca that is building up over time due to spring water then what is ? Sadly I dont have the option to test for minerals in water but I know TDS is giving me 100-150ppms.

 

[Growenhaft]

etwas muss sich im Laufe der Zeit an der Pufferkapazität des Bodens verändert haben. ​

Wie würden Sie diese Verschiebung erklären und glauben Sie, dass sie zur Endsituation beigetragen hat?​

Organic soil has a very good pH value of 6.8 ... it is determined by the individual components of the soil and the existing soil life. As the constituents of the earth weather and rot, the tribes of their soil life will also change constantly.

how does our plant react to this high ph value in organic cultivation?

it excretes acid via its roots ... it acidifies the individual areas in the medium to the extent that it can absorb every nutrient. Our plants already know what to do with this pot size ... there is no comparison to a 10l pot ... a completely different story.

what happens if you correct the ph value of the water downwards using acids?

In any case, you bring additional acids to your medium ... this interferes with the sensory system of the roots ... the lesser evil ... it is worse for an abundance of soil organisms which cause a sharp drop in the ph value and deprive them of the habitat is.
It is a paradox that an increase in the pH value does not have such great consequences for life in the soil. Obviously the mushrooms which are helpful for a better nutrient absorption are more receptive to a higher pH value than to one that is suddenly too low.

You cannot determine the buffer effect of your earth from the fact that an exact, constant value has to be determined with every measurement of your medium. it depends much more on the area from which the samples were taken. therefore, as many samples as possible should be carried out, especially in the direct active root zone. This means that the medium should also have the correct moisture content ... because only then is the oxygen content in the soil in the right again.
2/3 of the total oxygen in your soil is consumed by your soil life ... only 1/3 is consumed by your plant. If a 20l pot is wet, the consumption of oxygen in the soil has an effect on the pH value ... it will go a little higher ... it will decrease again as it dries up.

you know yourself how many factors interact ... in local cultivation we give the plant the space to arrange itself with the medium ... but to do this it has to adapt again and again ... be it through hormones, root excretions ... all this doesn't work overnight ... it takes some time ... but by keeping the leaves your plant shows that it can handle it.

in small pots and minerals we force everything on the plant ... we don't give it its own space ... we deliver everything as we know that it has to be right for a good yield and the health of the plant.

 

[InsaneMembrane]

Growenhaft thanks makes sense. Since I can’t control rain what do you recommend for the future when water spikes again and symptoms could appear? What measures would you take to prepare for this variable I’m having ? I know my water pH will keep on spiking when rains come.

 

[Growenhaft]

i'm not sure i would do you any real favor.

the latest discussions raise the following theory ... the number of terpenes increases the more the plant is allowed to interact with its medium. our plants are pure chemistry laboratories, they can produce or convert almost any acid and element for your purposes. the more a plant has to remediate itself through minor changes in its environment, the more chemistry it has to do, the more varied cannabinoids are created by the plant, some as by-products.

it could be the reason why many people favor bioweed in terms of taste ... it is not the medium itself, because the plants still only absorb the ione. this change in taste can only be created by the plant itself ... by using chemistry to adapt.

My previous experiences in aquaponics show that this is the case ... in which fish and bacteria produce the nutrients, the plant must also produce many additives in the medium water.
this happens directly on the root hairs at the moment of water absorption. for this reason, the speed of water flow is an extremely important part of the right environment.
the difference in taste between dwc and aquaponics is the same as between rock wool and organic soil ... no difference to organic farming. if you had asked me 2 years ago ... my answer would be to add lime to the water ... today I would like to think that calcium is present in abundance in your soil ... but the plant feeds on the calcium of your water ... it's more accessible.

By removing the sufficient lime content, there is a temporary bottleneck ... the plant must finally learn to absorb calcium from the soil life in a processed manner ... through conversion / chemistry. you see ... liming up oldshool. latest status ... let the plant do chemistry ... something great comes out of it.

 

[f-e]

Just to be clear here, Lime increases pH. As does Calcium. Reduced levels wouldn't increase pH.

It's likely the faster movement of water towards the well, picked up stuff along the way. Very possibly calcium. Increasing pH and antagonising P. The higher RH may be part of the puzzle. There are brown hairs coming fast to. Which makes me think the roots might not be happy.

 

[Growenhaft]

Just to be clear here, Lime increases pH. As does Calcium. Reduced levels wouldn't increase pH.

It's likely the faster movement of water towards the well, picked up stuff along the way. Very possibly calcium.

just so that I understand you correctly ... do you think the water has been enriched with a lot of calcium?

 

[InsaneMembrane]

f-e i’ve been running this cut a couple times and jt can be taken at 50 days I doubt the brown hairs are a sign of anything here, its a Black Domina cross.

i’m still unsure what I’m seeing, to me it looks like both Ca and P are locked out. There was no visible progression of symptoms over a longer period of time, it came to this in two days and it looks like it’s progressing further up the plants. The pictures are from the most affected, the others have this going too but not as bad. Pic 1 and 2 are the start and then the next day it looks like Pic 3

 

[InsaneMembrane]

 

[TanzanianMagic]

Just to add - if the PPMs of the runoff are really low, you should just feed them more high PK nutrients or similar, which will counterbalance the calcium. Also, the soil looks a little dry.

Also, they're standing on wooden slats. You should never use wood in a grow tent. Even bamboo stakes are asking for trouble. Wood and any cellulose (wallpaper, carpets) are nutrients for fungi and molds.

 

[Growenhaft]

Ich bin mir immer noch nicht sicher, was ich sehe, für mich sieht es so aus, als wären sowohl Ca als auch P ausgesperrt.

look at the leaf position, pay attention to the spread of the fingers.

if it were a P exclusion, the fingers to the left and right of the middle fingers would approach each other ... it would not be evenly spread.

The reason why the plant becomes lighter from bottom to top is due to the lack of calcium, because this promotes the nutrient absorption of all elements. What is poorly absorbed, the plant shifts from the bottom to the top, as far as this is possible and the nutrients are mobile.

It is no wonder that the plant shows a rapid phosphorus and nitrogen deficiency, it is the mobile nutrients.

The most important thing is to brighten the youngest shoots, here you will see that calcium is missing as an immobile nutrient. And not because it is excluded, but because there is hardly any calcium in rainwater and your well water is therefore greatly diluted. You can also measure this by the EC value of your water if what your plants say is not enough for you.

on the other hand, if there was too much calcium in the game, it would mean a chaotic uptake of nutrients ... believe me, you would tell your plant that it is not feeling well.

rainwater is an extremely weak solvent due to its crystal lattice.

let's just assume that the rain today, when it is hardly charged with sulfur and falls acidic to the earth, would have such a strong reaction to the mineral limestone that the calcium content in your well would increase by leaps and bounds ... will there still be limestone at all today?
It's not just been raining since last year ... it has been raining for a few billion years.

an increase in calcium in the water due to rain would have the consequence that the limestone would dissolve ... which it does ... but not at the speed that you could measure this ... crockery impossible. they would have a hole in their floor.

Calcium is always used to increase the ph value when it is in the bottomless low range.
it serves to stabilize the pH value in the neutral range. However, you will not achieve a pH increase by enriching calcium above 7 and upwards.

Precisely for this reason, calcium is used for stabilization ... but other products are offered to increase the ph value.

you are now in a stupid situation ... some say too much calcium ... their plants and I say too little.

In case of doubt, you can treat 50% of the plants as the others say ... and with the other 50% you can do it as your plants say.

the current calcium deficiency gives your plant the chance to do chemistry. it can only absorb clzium as CA2 + ione ... which is mainly found in water ... most of the calcium that is in your medium has a different form. Your plant must first learn to convert it. then you will benefit from it, even if your leaf dress is a bit lighter.

the longer your water is in the bottom of the well, the more the water will be watered down by the rain ... your water will have the usual calcium content and its pH will be stable again.

 

[InsaneMembrane]

I checked logs from previous years and developed another theory. i buffer my soil mix to 6.5 pH everytime and I have continously watched it rise to 6.9 and on one ocassion to 7.1, samples taken from near rootballs from different pots, measured mid-flower and sometimes measured after harvest.

My guess is that my water source has high alkalinity which means that over time I’m depositing all those carbonates and bicarbonates in my organic 20L and in turn raising the medium pH. Kinda makes sense to me since the pots are never watered to runoff and the symptoms were often observed around week 5. Also it’s hard to pH my water source, needs a lot of citric acid and the low pH from it only lasts a couple of hours tops before it climbs back up to 7.3-7.4.

An article from MSU explaining this: https://www.canr.msu.edu/news/water_alkalinity_and_ph_what_they_mean_in_regards_to_water_quality