Fungus gnats or WINGED ROOT APHIDS???

[humble1]

you test it on your plants, buddy.
all i know is that low DO is bad.
I wouldn't let my DWC girls go 10 minutes without air.....

 

[Leonard NeemOil]

Thanks buddy, my plants are currently under control but if they become heavily infested again I will certainly consider it.

I have seen a few posters give up and scrap their whole grow. Maybe before destroying their plants they could consider trying soap soaks of various lengths to see if they kill the plants or not, in the name of advancing real knowledge.

 

[smokesalot420]

I may just do that as I have a purple kush that is looking like it's no longer getting nutes, I think they have eaten her roots all up!

Give me a couple days and I will report back with results.....

 

[FoCo(No.Co)]

you test it on your plants, buddy.
all i know is that low DO is bad.
I wouldn't let my DWC girls go 10 minutes without air.....

Thanks buddy, my plants are currently under control but if they become heavily infested again I will certainly consider it.

I have seen a few posters give up and scrap their whole grow. Maybe before destroying their plants they could consider trying soap soaks of various lengths to see if they kill the plants or not, in the name of advancing real knowledge.

You could build a "container dunk bubbler"; rubbermaid tub + 2 airstones + air pump= pesticide bubbler.

Just let it bubble for a few hours prior to dunking for several minutes. Might work, eh? Trying it sounds significantly less costly than scraping your entire grow anyway.

 

[RetroGrow]

nematodes are most certainly not insects.
phylum Nematoda, actually.
good luck getting up a sizable population before the root aphids take over!
pyrethrins do work.
you need to dunk the whole rooting medium of each and every plant for ~15 seconds so the pyrethrins can permeate.
then you need to repeat in 3-4 days to break their breeding cycle.
then you need to repeat in about a week in case of any dormant, unaffected aphids.
and again in 3-4 days.
meanwhile you should be sterilizing your room and changing your intake filter.
mind you, this only applies to indoor containerized grows.
otherwise imid is it.

I repeat: Pyrethrins do not work against these. I completely submerged them in pyrethrins, and, as I said, they swam out and walked away. Did nothing to them Waste of time.

 

[Neo 420]

I have seen this thread pop up several times and never read it because I never had issue with these chumps. Well being bored the article popped up on the new post thingy and I decided to read it. I read 2 pages and said to myself I better do a "real" check. I took my 20 or 30 mag scope and check out buds and stalks and said to myself " Not me. Mot a issue I have." I then read more post. Something started to nag at me. I do show mag def and said I better check with my 60- 100 mag scope (thanks to the advice in a thread I read here. Radio Shack!!) I put the scope directly on top of the rockwool and I saw one. I almost fainted and started to cry. I ran back to my comp and read every page of the this thread. I am in the 5th week of flower. I see no wing creatures. Just the little ones in the rockwool. Transparent and with 2 antennas in the rear. I am going to buy sprectacide in about 15 20 mins. Any other advice? I plan on running the 7mil per gallon like NorCal said. I am so lucky to catch this early ( I hope). I PM'ed NorCal ( because I have hydro like him and will run through the rez) for advice but I need some NOW so I can buy what I need and put this nightmare behind me..

 

[humble1]

I repeat: Pyrethrins do not work against these. I completely submerged them in pyrethrins, and, as I said, they swam out and walked away. Did nothing to them Waste of time.

so you tried it once.
not over and over again as per instructions?
i wonder why it didn't work then......

 

[spleebale]

Since I clearly asked for far too much information in far too many places, here is a questionnaire I ask that everyone please fill out if you have root aphids, phantom "magnesium/potassium lockout/deficiency" symptoms, or both.

1)Do you have root aphids? (if so please answer A-D)
A)Do they look like any of the bugs pictured/linked in the first post? ("crabs" "tank beetles" "micros" or "psulloxera"? - use at least 10X magnification to see. If not, describe. Post a pic if possible!
B)Do you have/have you had fliers (winged version)? - Do they look like the two pictured at the top of the first post, or like the "Tank Beetle" fliers pictured here: http://www.icmag.com/gallery/data/500/20934mass0bugs.jpg (note the two winged creatures in the pic: one looks just like the Tank Beetles but with wings [round, beetle-like aphid] and the other has a banded abdomen and looks like a bee. Call the "Tank Beetle" fliers "Tank Fliers" and the bee-like creatures "bee-bugs" - I am assuming the latter is not aphids, but let us know what you have either way)
C)Have you noticed a waxy residue in the medium, on and around roots?
D)Have you tried any control methods/substances? What has and has not worked?

2)Do you have nutrient lockout/deficiency symptoms? (if so please answer A-B)
A)Do the symptoms seem to be connected to/tied to root aphid population?
B)Do they look like magnesium or potassium deficiency? (Intervenal chlorosis, little blotches of tan, necrotic tissue form in between veins and at leaf tips/margins, then spread and take over leaf edges and tips?)

3)What is your grow setup like? (closet/room, high air exchange vs. closed w/ CO2)
4)What medium/method do you do? (5-gal soil bags?/16 plants in NFT per 600W?/Bubble buckets w/ hydroton?)
5)What nutrient line do you use? (recipe/ppms?)
6)Do you foliar-spray your plants? What do you spray with? pH of spray?

Thank you!

 

[GeorgeSmiley]

Since I clearly asked for far too much information in far too many places, here is a questionnaire I ask that everyone please fill out if you have root aphids, phantom "magnesium/potassium lockout/deficiency" symptoms, or both.

1)Do you have root aphids? (if so please answer A- )

Yes

A)Do they look like any of the bugs pictured/linked in the first post? ("crabs" "tank beetles" "micros" or "psulloxera"? - use at least 10X magnification to see. If not, describe. Post a pic if possible!

Yes, under a 10x loupe I have clear tank beetles and when dead on the floor there are black ones of the same but larger

B)Do you have fliers (winged version)? [have you ever seen them]

yes but very few since I have been battling them. I was able to view them under 10x and see the clear difference between them and fungus gnats

C)Have you noticed a waxy residue in the medium, on and around roots?

No I haven't but have noticed brown mushy roots in first few mm of soil

D)Have you tried any control methods/substances? What has and has not worked?

First spray was floromite and azamax and a second spray with the dont bug me pyreth. 4 days later had dead bugs everywhere. When this method was tried later with an azamax drench, no dead were seen. I don't know if this is due to decreased numbers or something else. Recently io used Bayer tree and shrub with imid. I can't find any bugs on smaller plants but my largest still have the little clear ones running around in the soil

2)Do you have nutrient lockout/deficiency symptoms? (if so please answer A- )

Yes

A)Do they seem to be connected to/tied to root aphid population?

absolutely

B)Do they look like magnesium or potassium deficiency? (Intervenal chlorosis, little blotches of tan, necrotic tissue form in between veins and at leaf tips/margins, then spread and take over leaf edges and tips?)

that and nutrient burn/deficiency

3)What is your grow setup like? (closet/room, high air exchange vs. closed w/ CO2)

Room, high air exchange, 80 degrees 29% RH

4)What medium/method do you do? (5-gal soil bags?/16 plants in NFT per 600W?/Bubble buckets w/ hydroton?)

In sunshine mix34 and earthworm castings in beer cup to 15 gallon containers 2000w

5)What nutrient line do you use? (recipe/ppms?)

General Organics normal feeding schedule

6)Do you foliar-spray your plants? What do you spray with? pH of spray?

besides pesticides I spray with a kelp mix PH of 6.4

Thank you!

No! Thank you for the work you're putting in

 

[smokesalot420]

questionnaire I ask that everyone please fill out if you have root aphids, phantom "magnesium/potassium lockout/deficiency" symptoms, or both.

1)Do you have root aphids?
YES
A)Do they look like any of the bugs pictured/linked in the first post? Small black and green aphids, 2 cornicles on their back as seen thru 30x magnification
B)Do you have fliers (winged version)? A small amount But no longer seen since treating with the Imid
C)Have you noticed a waxy residue in the medium, on and around roots? Yes, some plants more then others

D)Have you tried any control methods/substances?

What did NOT work?
Neem oil (foliar and soil drench)
Gnatrol
Zero Tolerance (Foliar and soil drench-soil drench killed plants)
SM-90 soil drench (did not keep submerged, will try this for 5 minutes and see plants response)

What might have worked? Rotating the following depending on what stage they my plants are in:
Bayer Fruit, Citris and Vegatable w/ Imid at 6ml per gallon as a soil drench (1 time application only! during flip or veg phase)
Azamax/Azatrol at med-high dilution rate as a soil drench (2 applications at 10 day interval)
Pyrethrum TR bomb (2 applications to eliminate fliers at 2 week interval)

2)Do you have nutrient lockout/deficiency symptoms? YES
A)Do the symptoms seem to be connected to/tied to root aphid population? YES
B)Do they look like magnesium or potassium deficiency? BOTH

3)What is your grow setup like? 8 x 5 x 8 Secret Jardin tent (600w HPS and 2 400w vertical CMHs)

4)What medium/method do you do? Various sized soil containers, 5 gal- 3 gallon containers

5)What nutrient line do you use? Botanicare Cal/Mag and Liquid Karma, Humbolt nutes (master A and B), Super Thrive, Rhizotonic, Hygrozyme

6)Do you foliar-spray your plants? Foliar feed 2x in veg, Neem + SM-90 foliar in veg and 1st week of flower; Sulfur burn 3x during flower (3rd, 4th and 5th week of flower)

I will take pics of the Purple Kush plant that I am going to do the soil root drench with tomorrow.... Plant has been vegging for a couple months so it hurts to let it go as anyone who has grown these know how slow of veggers these things are

Oh well, looks like I will have lost 2 purple kush, an odyssey and a cheese plant to these but I caught them at the winged stage so if that's all I lose I will be thankful. Last year I lost everything to either the aphids or the treatments so it's a big improvement and hopefully we're learning how to proactively take care of these things.

I am now incorporating the Bayer (Imid) treatment along with my floramite (at different times during veg) and Neem so hopefully I will be covered in all respects now!

 

[Neo 420]

I also bought Ortho ecosense insecticidal soap. States can be used to the day of harvest. Any info on this product?

 

[milehighmedical]

Since I clearly asked for far too much information in far too many places, here is a questionnaire I ask that everyone please fill out if you have root aphids, phantom "magnesium/potassium lockout/deficiency" symptoms, or both.

1)Do you have root aphids? (if so please answer A-D) I believe so.
A)Do they look like any of the bugs pictured/linked in the first post? ("crabs" "tank beetles" "micros" or "psulloxera"? - use at least 10X magnification to see. If not, describe. Post a pic if possible! I don't have a lense, and my eyes aren't good enough for 100% identification but the symptoms fit perfectly.
B)Do you have/have you had fliers (winged version)? - Do they look like the two pictured at the top of the first post, or like the "Tank Beetle" fliers pictured here: http://www.icmag.com/gallery/data/500/20934mass0bugs.jpg (note the two winged creatures in the pic: one looks just like the Tank Beetles but with wings [round, beetle-like aphid] and the other has a banded abdomen and looks like a bee. Call the "Tank Beetle" fliers "Tank Fliers" and the bee-like creatures "bee-bugs" - I am assuming the latter is not aphids, but let us know what you have either way) Yes
C)Have you noticed a waxy residue in the medium, on and around roots? No
D)Have you tried any control methods/substances? What has and has not worked? Neem Oil, Azamax, Nematodes, Spectracide, Gnatrol, Pyrethrins. The neem, azamax and spectracide seemed like they helped a little bit, but I couldn't keep using neem. Couldn't afford more azamax. Spectracide might be helping, but not nearly enough to avoid nute lock out. Gnatrol did nothing. Pyrethrins did nothing.

2)Do you have nutrient lockout/deficiency symptoms? (if so please answer A-B)
A)Do the symptoms seem to be connected to/tied to root aphid population? Yes
B)Do they look like magnesium or potassium deficiency? (Intervenal chlorosis, little blotches of tan, necrotic tissue form in between veins and at leaf tips/margins, then spread and take over leaf edges and tips?) Yes

3)What is your grow setup like? (closet/room, high air exchange vs. closed w/ CO2) 2600w flowering, tents, normal exchange, 80F, 30% RH
4)What medium/method do you do? (5-gal soil bags?/16 plants in NFT per 600W?/Bubble buckets w/ hydroton?) 7 gal, Organic soil, 4 per light.
5)What nutrient line do you use? (recipe/ppms?) FF peace of mind, BioCanna, Liquid Karma, Honey ES, super thrive, and some what ever's laying around. As they ask for it.
6)Do you foliar-spray your plants? What do you spray with? pH of spray? Did once this round. With some cannaboost. Didn't PH. Just had the bottle sitting around, gave it a little kick but nothing special.

Thank you!
thank you.

..........

 

[RetroGrow]

so you tried it once.
not over and over again as per instructions?
i wonder why it didn't work then......

Hey bro, I had those bastards in a shot glass, and submerged them in pyrethrins. They did the back stroke and climbed out and walked away. On the other hand, I did the Imid drench, and they were all dead in moments. So, I say again, with all respect, pyrethrins do not kill these things, and neither do other "normal" insecticides that you might have around. That's why they are so nasty and dangerous. If people want to waste their time and money on stuff that doesn't work, that is their business.
The key to killing them is Imid.
Period.

 

[humble1]

So, I say again, with all respect, pyrethrins do not kill these things, and neither do other "normal" insecticides that you might have around. ......
The key to killing them is Imid.
Period.

I agree with you that imid is the way to go. However, with all due respect, you did not follow the directions. I have used pyrethrins successfully and it is a long and arduous process. I only recommend it for the obsessive hippies who don't use poison or for folks that are too far into flower to use imid safely.
One application is not hardly enough.
Adults are resistant to pyrethrins, but not immune, and it severely hinders their reproductive cycle which is the key to ending an infestation without real poison.

 

[Neo 420]

I have ran the sprecta for 20 min thru the drip and poured over each cube 2 gallons. Now do I run a lower PPM nute mix now? Or should I let them dry? There lights off in 40 minutes. Then send a new batch of nutes to them first thing daylight?

 

[milehighmedical]

.

 

[Neo 420]

I ran warm water thru the drip for 10 min. They will receive fresh nutes (Lowered PPM) tomorrow (The next cycle). Should I reapply in 4 days? I also have the ecosense insecticide which i sprayed on the base stalks and top of medium. I seen no bugs on any leaves. Is that normal? No flyers. I did look thru the scope and seen that the bugs (the micro's) have appeared to die. I seen 1 dead black one. Any further advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

[spleebale]

smokesalot: You need to be careful with the Sulfur + oils. Neem and SM90 are both mostly oil, and many other chems that are not water-soluble are often dissolved in oil, especially pyrethrins. The oils stick to the leaves and stay around for quite a long time.Sulfur reacts with the oil and burns leaves. You may be able to rinse leaves off after oil application with a small amount of soap or any other wetting agent (rinsing until run-off), but I have not found much on this.

I am currently looking at the combination of Mag-Amp (a Magnesium Sulfate product) and oils as being a potential contributor to/cause of the leaf-burn symptoms I am having, as it seems that something I have been doing with sprays seems to produce the leaf-burn symptoms in and of itself (although I think the symptoms are very similar to the advanced symptoms of root-aphid "lockout", they seem to happen in just a couple places after I apply sprays, even to plants which were not yet progressing toward such signs of deficiency)

Does anyone know if the small amount of sulfur in Mag-Amp could react badly with oils (even though Mag-Amp is only 1% MgSO4, and I only use generally 2-3 but at most 5 mL Mag-Amp/gal?

It is clear to me now that root aphids are the worst cause of my leaf-death necrosis (from correlation between aphid flier levels and the worst of the problem), though it seems that I am unfortunately also doing something else that induces the symptoms or causes the same problem with the sprays I do (to keep down mite levels).

Please let me know if anyone has any good information on what this may be that is causing the same intervenal chlorosis/leaf necrosis, or whether the small amount of sulfur in 3-5 mL/gal of 1% MgSO4 could be inducing these symptoms.

Thank you!!!

 

[smokesalot420]

Yeah I make sure to wait at least 2 weeks between oil treatments and sulfur burns, but good lookin out!

 

[BigSwifty]

Has anybody posted actual results from using Botanigard yet? I saw a few people considering but missed seeing any actual results. I wish they sold smaller amounts to try out first, that stuff is expensive.

I have had good luck with nematodes and Azamax drenches so far, contrary to other peoples experience. Maybe we are dealing with different species or completely different families as in the case of phylloxera.

I noticed my fliers liked the shiniest, brightest leaves, in the sweet spot, but they were always dead when I found them. At first, before I had them under control, there would be a couple of dead ones on the same leaf, even the same blade. I would remove them and then the next day there would be one or two more on the exact same leaf on the exact same blade! Always dead! Very bizarre.

I also noticed dozens of dead fliers piled in between the spiral of a compact fluorescent bulb in my closet that is rarely on.

They seem to be attracted to bright and shiny, so I hung a blue sticky trap directly under a compact fluorescent bulb in another room and left the light on 24 hours a day. The little bastards covered the trap within a day or two. The same sticky traps on the periphery of my actual grow area barely only attracted one or two previously.

Hey I was very close to picking up some Botanigard. I was researching though and I read somewhere that it doesn't work as well for soil-dwelling insects because they've developed a resistance to it over time. I guess it may still take them out in high doses. Who knows? I wish there were some definitive results on it.

Do you know if nematodes are affected by pyrethrins and nicotine? I've been using nicotine teas and pyrethrins and I'd like to implement nematodes. I'd imagine if you could continue to use pyrethrins then the nematode population would build up pretty well.

Also, can you add pyrethrins to the nutrient solution when feeding? I'd rather use plain water, but I don't want the plants to miss their nutes. I'm in soil and handwatering...