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Fungus gnats or WINGED ROOT APHIDS???

Old Fogey

Well-known member
Perhaps we are not talking about the same product...as I can not find Vectobac WDG/WG available for sale anywhere, at least not on Google/Amazon.

According to Valent Bioservices website-- https://publichealth.valentbioscien...lth-resources/vectobac-wg-technical-use-sheet

VectoBac WG Biological Larvicide is available in the following package sizes:
• USA only
– 1 lb (0.45 kg) HDPE plastic canisters, packaged 24 per case
– 25 lb (11.3 kg) drums
• International only
– 0.5 kg HDPE plastic canisters, packaged 24 per case
– 25 kg drums

Are you sure you bought 5 kg for $200? or was it 0.5 kg? If so, I would like to know where I can buy some.

I paid $180 plus tax and handling for a 5kg tub. I say $200 because that's close enough to my total outlay, perhaps $10 more.

Photo attached. That's a quart bottle of CaliMagic sitting on top of the tub.

I'm reluctant to provide a closeup of the label because of the meta-data contained in it (I'm not in a legal state). But the potency statement quoted from the label in my post above is verbatim.

I make up each batch roughly 5 to 10 minutes before use and I make sure to make up enough for that watering event only. Certainly, I found that allowing it to sit around for more than 18-24 hours would lead to residue/sludge issues, but once it is in the coco/perlite it ceases to act that way, even if it's an older batch.

I've been using freshly prepared batches on a daily basis for roughly a month now and I have encountered no buildup problems, no sludge, no slime or scale etc etc. Everything is clean (I use zyme at all times). I was using daily for 2 months before changing my methods and I've seen no ill effects on my plants.

I've just pulled some Peak Seeds Skunk Berry and Kush Northern Lights males. They've been watered with BTi daily for 30 days and the root system on them is perfectly healthy and normal. I tried to take a picture to illustrate that but my camera isn't up to the job.

Anyway, I am sure you can track the product down. I'd be shocked if agricultural chemical companies in Southern US don't carry it, there are a lot of mosquitoes down that way.

Peace
 

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DocTim420

The Doctor is OUT and has moved on...
OK...we will have to take your word for it.
Just that you suggested a product that does not seem to be available to buy on the internet--in any size, much yet 5kg. Odd, huh?

But if you find a source, please let us know, I am sure others are probably interested as I will be needing to buy another bucket of BTI in about 6 months--just got my 5 gallon bucket of Bits a few weeks ago.
 

Old Fogey

Well-known member
This is almost the entire 5kg, I wouldn't have used half a pound in 3 months. And in the pill bottle lid is 1 gram which I add to each 7.5 liters or roughly 2 gallons of nutrient solution.

You must only ever use BTi in acidic solutions, alkaline kills the bacteria. The ideal PH for BTi is 5.6. but I have no problems when PH is as high as 6.2.

The maximum usage time for a single batch of BTi/nutrient solution is 72 hours.

Never refrigerate this Water Dispersible Granule BTi, I did so with a small batch and it killed the bacteria. I keep my tub in a cupboard at around 65F - 75F degrees.

Edit: the instructions say to allow a 10% slurry, not the 1% slurry that I stated in a previous post. This instruction is for large scale spraying operations, I think, so if you were using the same product as me and were using it in a drip system or similar, you would dump your res before it reaches 10% of the volume of the amount of feed/water you added your BTi to originally.

Peace
 

Old Fogey

Well-known member
I didn't see before that you can get the product from Valent in 1lb tubs.

That is the product I'm talking about, and unless you are running a commercial operation, and bearing in mind that it has a 2 year shelf life from date of manufacture and you're unlike to get a freshly made tub in the first place, 1lb ought to be more than you can use before it needs replacing.

How much for the 1lb tub? I saw it on ebay from a guy in France and he wanted around $100 for 500 grams (a bit more than 1lb). That's expensive to me now I've found a supplier of 5kg tubs, but really cheap compared to what I was paying from my grow store at $75+ for just 50 grams of the exact same substance.

If the price is anything below $150 for 1lb, I say it represents excellent value for money because it will eradicate Fungus gnats and prevent future infestations and you should seriously think about purchasing it.

Peace
 

Old Fogey

Well-known member
OK...we will have to take your word for it.
Just that you suggested a product that does not seem to be available to buy on the internet--in any size, much yet 5kg. Odd, huh?

But if you find a source, please let us know, I am sure others are probably interested as I will be needing to buy another bucket of BTI in about 6 months--just got my 5 gallon bucket of Bits a few weeks ago.

What do you mean, you'll have to take my word for it and the product isn't available to you in any size?

It's in your post above: Valent BioServices Vectobac WG - 1lb and 25lb tubs.

That/this is the precise same product. Clearly, you can find the manufacturer, it shouldn't be impossible for you to find a seller.
 

DocTim420

The Doctor is OUT and has moved on...
Google it dude...that is all I am saying, it is not available via internet. Easy to prove me wrong, just cut and paste a link to an online seller. Very simple.
 

Old Fogey

Well-known member
I don't have a Fungus gnat problem anymore. Period. Why?

Because Vectobac WG purchased in a 5kg bucket eliminated an 18 month-old infestation and has prevented any other occurring since, and it will do the job for a two year period at a cost to me of $200.

If folk can't manage to buy fewer than 25lbs of the stuff because that is all you can get in your locality, organize a shared buy with other growers or perhaps suggest it to your local grow store owner and hope they charge a reasonable price for it. Whatever.

Just don't put your bummer on me and in the process question my integrity because I've found the product and you cannot. That is envy, and it's very unattractive.
 

Old Fogey

Well-known member
OK...we will have to take your word for it.
Just that you suggested a product that does not seem to be available to buy on the internet--in any size, much yet 5kg. Odd, huh?

But if you find a source, please let us know, I am sure others are probably interested as I will be needing to buy another bucket of BTI in about 6 months--just got my 5 gallon bucket of Bits a few weeks ago.

Find your own source. I did.

Never once in any post did I say the product was easy to procure.

I found a product that worked but I was paying too much for it to use it effectively.

So I used my imagination and initiative to find out precisely what the substance was [it is Bacillus Thuringiensis israeliensis Serotype H14 in a Water Dispersible Granule (noted on labels as either WG or WAG) which is marketed under the name of Vectobac WG].

Then I found the manufacturer, and then subsequent to that the manufacturer of operating under license in my zone. From there I found a retailer, who sold the item in either 5kg or 25kg drums.

You now know the product name and which company owns the patent. Indeed, you know that they produce it and sell it. And I've told you everything you could possibly want to know about method of use. It's up to you to do the rest.

I came onto this thread to let people know that I have solved my Fungus gnat problem completely at a reasonable cost and I'm happy to share all knowledge I have on the subject.

But I won't be accused of fudging the truth or anything similar, simply because you lack the wit to work out how you should go about finding it available for purchase somewhere.
 

Old Fogey

Well-known member
Google it dude...that is all I am saying, it is not available via internet. Easy to prove me wrong, just cut and paste a link to an online seller. Very simple.

See my post immediately above.

Why would Valent package 24 1lb packs in a single lot? Maybe because it's for later re-sale. Anyway, Google it yourself, I'm not your dogsbody.
 

DocTim420

The Doctor is OUT and has moved on...
Its cool...obviously I hit a nerve.

BTW, I am not the one the chimed in this thread about a product that is not available to purchase on the internet. Standing by my words--"We will have to take your word for it".
 

bigbadbiddy

Active member
I was also stressing about where to source my BTi from in order to get rid of them gnats.

Was googling this and that and stuff came up more and more confusing and I kept running into walls of "you can't get that here" or "that would cost 200% of item price in additional shipping" and that kinda crap.

After a lot of back and forth and deliberating if I should get this or that product and how etc. etc., I simply googled "bacillus thuringiensis israelensis" and lo and behold about a hand full of products showed up that were readily available to me. I didn't even have to order it online, I could get it in the shop around the corner.

I just didn't know because the product was marketed for something entirely different and I had googled for various products such as Gnatrol and stuff and fixated on how I get this or that product.

Instead all I really had to do was google the active ingredient and I found a whole list of things I could use and easily get.

In the meantime I had watered in several packs of nematodes which did help but did not completely eradicate the gnats.

Currently I have been watering with BTI for a few weeks. At the start I just applied it once because it said it was highly concentrated stuff I could use for entire ponds but since I apply it with every watering, the gnats have considerably reduced.
Also in size.

The only remaining flyer gnats I still see have gotten reaaaal tiny.

When I transplanted the seedlings, I did see larvae in the bottom layer of soil still but apparently they are getting fewer and fewer as well.

I resigned to continue watering with BTI for now and see what happens. If I haven't completely eradicated the bastards in a few weeks, I will add diatomaceous earth as a top mulch and probably also put the pots on a bed of that stuff to make sure these bastards don't get in through the bottom holes.
 

EastBayGrower

Member
Veteran
i have em all, tried most...

fought the unwinnable battle for over 2 years after getting root aphids from the first set of clones/dirt after a 6 year hiatus of growing...

outdoors they where present, in pretty good numbers obviously taking a tole but never seemed to slow the plants down, yield fine, quality was good.. natural predetors and outdoors enviorment makes RA not a huge problem, atleast ime

indoors with no natural cycles it a whole different story, a disaster, indoor growing with RA is a losing battle, i tried to beat em back without dunking, tried all the organic methods, met52,botanigaurd powder, foliar pack, they didnt seem to knock down an infestation that was already taken hold... what worked atleast as a temp knockdow was riptide at amything from 2ml-5ml gal, never did a full dunk or with orathene (idk why) so never got complete erradication, they always came back within a week, two at most, didnt seem to help the grow overall and all these treatments take its toll over the grow and phantoms defs, burnt buds, no thc, lower growth would ALWAYS yellow and die, where all symptoms...

the only thing that finally got me back to white fuzzy roots was to shut down my indoor tent, threw out all soil, took moms to aerocloner... and for a month didnt grow in dirt.. once i did i drenched heavily with x2 foliar pack.. cleaned the tent and used to harvest my outdoor, cleaned again.. and now its back in action and plants are noticably stronger andhealthier... the true test will be flowering cause thats when the RA plants would go down hill fast for me... but these White fuzzy roots are a GREAT sign im winning the fight, for now...


 

Old Fogey

Well-known member
Well, I used to have Fungus gnats and now I don't.

Make of that what you will. Folk can take my advice and experience with using water dispersible granules of Bti, or they can leave it to waste.
 

bigbadbiddy

Active member
Howdy folks,

I might have celebrated too early :(

I just germed a new pack of seeds and since then have had a new explosion of the flyers. Since I have been watering with BTI for the last 2 or so weeks (and felt like the pests were nearly eradicated), I was very surprised to see a new explosion of flyers...


So I took a pic. Maybe it is root aphids after all.

Otherwise the BTI would not be working for me....

Please halp (check pic).

If it is root aphids, I would have the added benefit of having nothing in flower now, so I could theoretically knock them out with systemic chemicals and just veg for another month before flowering them. That should be enough time to get out the systemics.

/Edit
I just checked page 1 again and to me they certainly look like Gnats (still) and not RAs...
 

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bigbadbiddy

Active member
Looks like a pointed abdomen to me :D

Which makes me wonder why the BTI watering didn't get rid of them completely and why I had a new explosion of them after germing a new round of seeds (which was watered with BTI as well)...

Obviously the environment in the propagator (very moist) is ideal for them and that seems to be their "source" at the moment as I had very few flyers around the veg room before germing the new seeds.

And when I opened the propagator yesterday, a whole bunch of them emerged and I saw them everywhere. The little seedlings are just tastier/easier to feast on and the environment in the propagator is preferred so that isn't really surprising I suppose.


Now I don't have mosquito dunks here but as I said above I looked for BTI and found a product with it, stating a few drops are enough for an entire pond of water. I applied it generously with my waterings and as I mentioned, I was convinced I was slowly winning the battle.

Until I germed new seeds ... And now they are back and their numbers are greater than ever.


I'm at my wit's end here...

Close to the point where I say "screw it, scrap everything, shut down for a month and let everything go bone-dry then reboot"...

But Fungus Gnats shouldn't really necessitate that, should they?


What also confused me is that when I transplanted the seedplants to bigger pots, some of them had the soil break apart because their roots were so weak and I saw larvae near the roots, not in the top layer of the pot.
A good 1-2 cm from the bottom holes of the solo cups.

Maybe I need to take more pictures? Maybe I have both Fungus Gnats AND Root Aphids .... and the one I snapped a pic of just happened to be a FG...

Could also put some roots under a microscope I suppose...
 

DONAJTHEIII

Member
Looks like a pointed abdomen to me :D

Which makes me wonder why the BTI watering didn't get rid of them completely and why I had a new explosion of them after germing a new round of seeds (which was watered with BTI as well)...

Obviously the environment in the propagator (very moist) is ideal for them and that seems to be their "source" at the moment as I had very few flyers around the veg room before germing the new seeds.

And when I opened the propagator yesterday, a whole bunch of them emerged and I saw them everywhere. The little seedlings are just tastier/easier to feast on and the environment in the propagator is preferred so that isn't really surprising I suppose.


Now I don't have mosquito dunks here but as I said above I looked for BTI and found a product with it, stating a few drops are enough for an entire pond of water. I applied it generously with my waterings and as I mentioned, I was convinced I was slowly winning the battle.

Until I germed new seeds ... And now they are back and their numbers are greater than ever.


I'm at my wit's end here...

Close to the point where I say "screw it, scrap everything, shut down for a month and let everything go bone-dry then reboot"...

But Fungus Gnats shouldn't really necessitate that, should they?


What also confused me is that when I transplanted the seedplants to bigger pots, some of them had the soil break apart because their roots were so weak and I saw larvae near the roots, not in the top layer of the pot.
A good 1-2 cm from the bottom holes of the solo cups.

Maybe I need to take more pictures? Maybe I have both Fungus Gnats AND Root Aphids .... and the one I snapped a pic of just happened to be a FG...

Could also put some roots under a microscope I suppose...



Always have a few FG flying around over here :tiphat: nothing im ever worried about doesnt seem to be an issue roots exploding still. I use stickies top layers and stuff like sm-90,h202, and azamax in the res to keep em at bay. there's always a handful flying around. They come in my readygro I concluded. I just deal with em.



cheers


:biggrin:
 

bigbadbiddy

Active member
They are seriously negatively affecting many plants.

I would say about 50% of my plants that make it past the seedling stage grow as expected, strong, vigorous, great roots.

The other 50% are stunted, new growth dies off/yellows, growing super slow. When I repot them, I see they have close to no root-system while the other 50% have rooted through the entire pot as expected.

They are severely affecting my grow...

The other day I opened the propagator and I kid you not, they chewed off a seedling at the middle of the stem. Like 1 cm of the stem looking out of the soil, clean bitten off and a little brown/rotten at the point where it was eaten away. The top, another 1cm, lying in the solo cup...


I don't know, I think I just finish this round, don't keep any clones or mums and just throw everything away after harvest, then shut down the entire thing as I go on vacation for a month and then start fresh.

Hope it will be enough to let the soil dry out for a month so I don't need to mix a new batch of soil after.
 

F. Dupp

Active member
Veteran
I have found that shutting down is not a cure, by any means. When you shut down, the RA's just go into stasis, or their "overwintering cycle", and they come back as soon as food is available. You have to eradicate them while they are active.

I have shut down grow areas for over a year, only to have them come back the minute I re-introduce a food source.
 
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