Decarb or not decarb before ? that's the question ...

[MedBelgUsr]

Hello gentle people,

Imagine the situation, after 2 weeks of drying my harvest, I extract hash using dry ice and I cure it in a "vacuum" jar, in the dark, at a constant temperature of around 18 degrees Celsius ( 64 F ) for minimum 3 months.

After 3 months, I take the hash that I mix with olive oil ( I'm allergic to lecithin ) and then I start making my edibles with the resulting liquid.

For that process, the cannabis liquid is warmed at 85 degrees Celsius ( 185 F ) and agitated non stop for 10 hours ( so there must be a slow decarb happening there already ). Its using an auto stirring device.

Slow temperatures and long durations are meant to limit/reduce the evaporation of good terpenes during the process.

In the evening , I freeze the liquid for the night and the following day, I warm it again at 85 degrees celsius, and again it's agitated non stop for 10 hours ( so decarb is happening again ).

My question is : with this process, do you think I should still decarb in the oven as a very first step ? ( I'm thinking about 30 min at 90 degrees C - 194 F ), or do you think that after 20 hours of bathing/agitation at 85 C, it should be all decarboxylated ?

It would be easier if the mathematical formula of THC conversion ( at specific pressure and temperature ) is known ... but I dont know the conversion rate.

As you can see in the chart above, decarb starts slowly at 80 C degrees .... at a rate that could be grossly interpolated at 20 % of THC content converted by hour ... so after 5 hours ... we should have reached 100 %, right ?
and after 10 hours ? 20 hours ?

I could also experiment with tasting various durations and temps but with my stock being low/limited, I dont want to end up with a bag of CBN ...

Thanks all for the help !

Cheers

PS : I have posted the same question on another forum as I would like to get as many responses as possible ...

 

[flylowgethigh]

When I make butter out of my ABV, it cooks in water/butter for over 4 hours at 212*F. That is fully decarbed.

 

[MedBelgUsr]

With ABV, you mean already vaped flowers ??

How does your response relate to my question on slow decarboxylation temperatures over a long period of time ? I am bit lost.

 

[f-e]

If you interpolate using the peaks, you might find in 4 hours, the decay is over.
Half hour at 120 seems the easiest target.
145 got the best result, but only within a 3 minute window. Heating the entire sample to 145 for that 7 minutes gets a little difficult. If would need thinly spreading on a preheated surface. If you go with 120 the window is about 10 minutes. Giving time for even a lump to heat through and get cooked properly.

 

[flylowgethigh]

With ABV, you mean already vaped flowers ??

How does your response relate to my question on slow decarboxylation temperatures over a long period of time ? I am bit lost.

Yes, already been vaped. I heat at 420*F for 10-15 secs, then turn on the fan and blow the terps off. After that the oils remain and make good butter.

The time temp has been studied, and there is more info than that old Russian chart now.

https://graywolfslair.com/index.php...-1-decarboxylation/10-1-4-decarboxylation-101

 

[MedBelgUsr]

flylowgethigh Thanks for your explanation.
I have checked your link and there's an article saying that you can decarb at low temperatures over the period of many many hours ... so it's somehow what I'm doing ... but I would like to know at 85 C, after how many hours I can stop or if I should go on.

The use of a higher temperatures is indeed decarboxylating much faster, but at the costs of a huge terpenes evaporation ... so I'm trying to counter balance the effect.

It looks like without a spectrometer, I will never know ?

 

[Gry]

IF you wish to know if is decarbed, test a small amount to check. Put a small amount in a container bring it to temp and watch to see if it outputs.

 

[MedBelgUsr]

Excellent idea, I feel stupid for not having thought about it

Zo I take few drops and bring it to high temp and see if I still spot tiny bubbles .... Brilliant.

 

[Switcher56]

flylowgethigh Thanks for your explanation.
I have checked your link and there's an article saying that you can decarb at low temperatures over the period of many many hours ... so it's somehow what I'm doing ... but I would like to know at 85 C, after how many hours I can stop or if I should go on.

The use of a higher temperatures is indeed decarboxylating much faster, but at the costs of a huge terpenes evaporation ... so I'm trying to counter balance the effect.

It looks like without a spectrometer, I will never know ?

FWIW, I use a Levo for making my canna oil pills and salve (harlequin). 185 deg F for 2 hours. They recommend doing (the canna Chef or whatever his name is on the tube) 2 x 1hr sessions 30 minutes apart. Never tried 2 hrs straight, so I wouldn't know, nor do I care to experiment. All I know is that I take a ride for 6hrs per size "0" cap (0.68ml). Levo is a hermetically sealed machine, terpenes don't escape. I am frugal with any thing I do in life. Everything must have a dual purpose. It was also bought to make infused olive oil, not cannabis related.

 

[flylowgethigh]

When I hear the frozen butter to thaw it and make cookies, it can get hot enough to make a few small bubbles. I figure these are the remnants of decarbing. Larger bubbles are the butter boiling - too hot.

Supposedly over decarbing just makes a THC to CBN conversion. My cookies also are great sleep aid.

 

[Gry]

When I hear the frozen butter to thaw it and make cookies, it can get hot enough to make a few small bubbles. I figure these are the remnants of decarbing. Larger bubbles are the butter boiling - too hot.

Supposedly over decarbing just makes a THC to CBN conversion. My cookies also are great sleep aid.

If you were able to sell them at anywhere near a reasonable price, you would make a killing.
Those cookies taste wonderful and work as well as they taste.
The conversion between THC, and CBN is said to take quite a bit. Recall reading that those who
make bhang, understand the end of the batch which has received the most concentrated heat for
the longest period of time, will always be the strongest.

 

[MedBelgUsr]

FWIW, I use a Levo for making my canna oil pills and salve (harlequin). 185 deg F for 2 hours.

Thanks for your input : so if you do it at 185F for 2 hours, and you are happy, then probably my 185 F for 20 hours is good.
Just as a last verification : I will make a test with a small quantity and high temp.

 

[Chi13]

I can't directly answer the question, but I have never decarbed. I cook cannabis in either butter or olive oil in a crock pot on low for anywhere between 6-12 hours and always end of with a very potent edible.

In the past I have made cookies with the butter which further cooks (decarbs), but I have also tried the olive oils I make in salad dressing or just swallowed and that has got me very high as well.

 

[Switcher56]

Thanks for your input : so if you do it at 185F for 2 hours, and you are happy, then probably my 185 F for 20 hours is good.
Just as a last verification : I will make a test with a small quantity and high temp.

No!!! You are trying to take words out of my mouth, and I claim foul.

Flylow and I used to exchange information. He was a source, as I am a source. Flylow deals exclusively with PVB (previously vaped bud) I've got over 800g of PVB I have yet to find a use for.

We no longer communicate for various reasons, this is not one of them.' what your wife doesn't like, is the terpenes being evaporated in the oven. Vaping = they aren't going into la la land. Clean terps are a trip in themselves but, they don't contain IMHO anything of worthiness, outside of "cleanliness" the "entourage effect", that is contained in PVB that, only occurs with combustion.

I am a medical user, therefore my 800 g of "hish hash" is not really what you are after. Ya, his cookies serve a multitude of areas to include sleep, which is IMHO, BS! I grow medically. I don't know what his habits are etc... He in my personal experience doesn't differentiate between daytime and nighttime strains. To me hish hash is fighting my brains. Don't believe me? Get drunk on Irish coffee and tell me how you feel the next day!!!!!
You wind up as a wide awake drunk and hence your eye balls are sore the next day.

My strains target, x, y, or z. I have done brownies with previously PVB "hish hash". It doesn't wok.

To keep my PVD clean for the lack of a better word, I would need 15 separate receptacles to collect I am not going there, and unfortunately sill combust when I want the full "entourage effect".

So I don't use edibles to medicate (especially where legal, which I am). IMHO that is nothing more that someway to beat the man.

I use canna pills decarbed raw buds, @ 250 for 25 min . The easiest and simplest way to follow and remember. I take a ride for 6 hrs, if I feel a need until either my pill really kicks in, or on the tail end (sometimes) I vape. One size doesn't fit all

 

[HempKat]

How is the finish product consumed? I've never had a need to analyze things as deeply as you are but then I've only ever made canna butter or Iso Hash. With the canna butter the decarbing happens in the process of making the butter and what might slip past that gets finished in the baking or cooking I do with the canna butter. With the iso hash the decarbing gets done in the pipe. My guess is your 20 hour process is good no matter how it's consumed. If however you plan on mostly cooking with it or heating it up to until it vaporizes you could probably go less then 20 hours.

Also for what it's worth, I've been unsuccessful at refinding where I think I read this so I could be wrong but I could almost swear I read somewhere that it will decarb just in the heat it gets exposed to if you ate it raw but of course that would taste pretty nasty so I'm not advocating that.

 

[Switcher56]

How is the finish product consumed? I've never had a need to analyze things as deeply as you are but then I've only ever made canna butter or Iso Hash. With the canna butter the decarbing happens in the process of making the butter and what might slip past that gets finished in the baking or cooking I do with the canna butter. With the iso hash the decarbing gets done in the pipe. My guess is your 20 hour process is good no matter how it's consumed. If however you plan on mostly cooking with it or heating it up to until it vaporizes you could probably go less then 20 hours.

Also for what it's worth, I've been unsuccessful at refinding where I think I read this so I could be wrong but I could almost swear I read somewhere that it will decarb just in the heat it gets exposed to if you ate it raw but of course that would taste pretty nasty so I'm not advocating that.

Like everything else there is a lot of old wives tales out there IMHO.

You can make mari pills, with straight flowers (not decarbed) they are really insufficient wrt potency, when compared to going through the process of decarboxilation.

When it comes to making butter, what I like (using a Levo), there is no need for using water in the process. The use for water is to prevent the solids from burning, which then requires an overnight in the fridge to separate. One can use Gee, which is nothing more than clarified butter (solids removed). Gee can be made at home as well, its just another step in the process. Some folks find it amazing that the simple use (when cooking (frying), not necessarily with cannabis, but cooking in general)) that using a "neutral oil" like avocado 1tbs or 2 will prevent the butter from burning in the pan, if you are looking for that "butter flavour" in the recipe. Why? I dunno and really don't care. I just know it works.

Many do not like the taste of edibles because regardless whether decarbed or not, you taste the weed. That being said, there is sufficient evidence out there that the cooking process for cookies, isn't nearly long enough for total decarboxilation and hence potency will vary.

I found Jeff the 420chef, https://www.youtube.com/c/JeffThe420chef to be a great resource wrt cooking with cannabis. I am sure there are others out there as well. Of course he uses a Levo for all his processing and has a potency meter. <--- sellers sell stuff and buyers by stuff, which I chose not to get. FWIW I use my phone for making phone calls only. Regardless if we are legal here in Canada or not.

What I found interesting with Jeff, cannabis is not created equal when it comes to cooking with it, to the extent that using the appropriate strain e.g taste for a specific recipe makes a difference. I can't repeat it accurately here, but the link does reference specific strains for specific recipes e.g making a salad dressing for a salad, where it is not only about getting stoned but a dining experience in itself. My wife doesn't consume and has never consumed, so cooking with it is not an option.

There is so many options out there e.g the difference between coconut oil and MCT oil. The former solidifies at room temperature whereas MCT oil doesn't. The former also imparts a coconut flavour to the overall recipe, alright if you want that taste, not so much so if you don't. Furthermore, MCT (refined and filtered coconut oil) doesn't impart the "coconut taste". It also has another important characteristic IMHO, there is no requirement to use lecithin, both liquid and powder. This is great for those that are allergic to it etc...

I am retired and hence have a lot of times on my hands for research. It is time consuming. One valuable quality one must have (IMHO) is the ability to extrapolate information, in order to decipher the chaff and the wheat, and trust me, there is a lot of BS out there.

We were taught how to do proper research when we were young, not so much so these days with the pace of life, where folks hit the 1st site they see and do not corroborate what is said. Furthermore, the way you ask a Q is important, what is the difference between:

• Is propylene glycol (a carrier for ecig liquids) safe; and
• Side effects of propylene glycol.

The former will state that PG is GRAS (generally regarded as safe), the operative word here is "generally" as it is used/found in a lot of consumer products, right down to toothpaste. The word itself tells you there is something else out there, or the answer GRAS is not the total answer. The latter, will provide the side effects of PG use for those that are allergic to it. Basically the same question one might think, but 2 different answers.

Research is time consuming, but IMHO worth the time we spend on it, especially with the pace of life these days (which IMHO is by design, to keep us stupid) and enhanced by algorithms (SEOs) that only give you the top 10 searches or whatever on whatever you are "googling" the answer is often found on subsequent pages, and IMHO that is where we should be spending our time, not necessarily, the top 10 hit sites, which may or may not be relevant, by design.

It is not uncommon for me to have 50 or 100 bookmarks, generated from the text I am reading. This is not dissimilar to being at a library and getting another text on the subject., to examine the pertinence of said previously discussed information. From those bookmarks, it goes without saying that reading the secondary text, will generate more. It is just a matter of whittling them down. We were taught this as one point in time, it was simple common sense. These days we all know there isn't a lot of common sense out there.

Sorry for the long post/dissertation, some may find it diatribe. That was not my intent, merely, you only get out of something what you are willing to put in, and one size does not fit all.

PS: We are currently living in a society totally void (totally too strong a word here) of common sense and the pace of life too fast and often overwhelming. As such, everyone wants to be spoon fed, not a good thing!

 

[flylowgethigh]

"I am a medical user, therefore my 800 g of "hish hash" is not really what you are after. Ya, his cookies serve a multitude of areas to include sleep, which is IMHO, BS! I grow medically. I don't know what his habits are etc... He in my personal experience doesn't differentiate between daytime and nighttime strains."

Daytime, nightime, huh? I see no difference. I feel the same effects from different strains though, so maybe my tolerance is way high. IMO, when the terps are vaped off, dope is about all the same. Cannabis oils are what remain. I vape a lot of variety (there are 10 strains in my stash drawer), and that variety is in the ABV. I use a quart of ABV in 2 pounds (before cooking) butter. I add CBD hemp and as much non-vaped bud as it takes to fill the crock pot. After cooking in the butter/water at 212* for 4+ hours, there are no terps remaining. This is strong stuff.

That 4 hours making the butter, at 212* because of the water (which absorbs dirt and such), fully decarbs it. I highly recommend adding water when making butter. I do this twice, scraping off the nasty stuff that has stuck to the bottom of the butter cake after cooling overnight in the fridge. The water gets dirty the second time also.

And BTW, while talking about edibles one must consider the other transformation of the goodies - the one inside you:

https://cannabisnow.com/11-hydroxy-thc/

I sleep very well, as measured by a recording ring I wear. The cookies are a big part of that. I eat them during the day also. Yummy. I have some Haze hybrids running now, so we'll see abut a daytime / nightime deal. If these don't do anything different, I am back to my terps / oils theory.

I finally was able to get an order in for a Mighty, so my joint smoking will hopefully be much curtailed. I can feel the sticky oils in my lungs from joints. Vaping terps helps relieve that stick feeling BTW, maybe the terp solvents at work.

 

[...CR500AF...]

i decarb, i only use sugar leaf for a run on it's own, and bud on it's own, garbage in garbage out i have always lived by that rule do not see a reason to stop. 30 min decarb at 249-250 F makes great budder. i use a pound no clarification for both it has worked well so far just my experience ...