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Do you measure PAR for your grows ?

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    Do you measure PAR for your grows ?

    I found a ebay deal last summer on a Apogee MQ-500 and have been trying to put it to use measuring light levels for plants. I find that a PAR of about 125-150 does well for starting cuts under a dome. Its also a HLG QB-96 4K same as mom box.

    My bonsai moms in 5" square pots in my mom area is 12" deep by 36" and a overall height of 26" lined with reflective material. The light is a HLG QB-96 (3"x24") on a dimmable Meanwell driver. About 10-12" from light where the top of the moms get before I trim them back the PAR is around 300 dead in the middle of the light and tapers down to 100+ moving to the end of the cabinet. This seems to work well for the moms since I really dont want them to grow very fast and Im going to lower it some to keep them going but hope to just keep them healthy but not growing too fast. I have 9 strains of bonsai moms.
    My main light is a few years old Cree 3590 cob kit from Timber Grow lights. 12" below light in the middle of the fixture the reading with the Apogee reads 1250 on full power. I have a red supplemental kit I put together of 660 Cree chips (small ones) and that will boost it up to 1350. I turn on the additional 660 reds when I flip to flower and usually turn the main light down a smidge.
    Some plants like all the light I can give but I have recently started a grow of Ice Cream Cake that I had to turn the light down. Have not measured it yet waiting to see if the plants like that level.
    Im interested if more people are taking readings and trying to make use of the info. I understand all lights will give different readings but I would imagine they are similar for the most part.
    Last edited by stickyunderwear; 02-17-2021, 08:26.

    #2
    Par, lux, umol, tried learning about this stuff when I bought leds and bleached some plants.. Then I hear leds are different? Meters don't read them right?

    Screw it, I'll check back in 20 years when the truth is canonized. Maybe Jorge can pen a new work by then.

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      #3
      That 500 does not cover the 400-700 spectrum as well as their 520, especially at the higher red freqs.

      https://www.apogeeinstruments.com/sq...ab-description

      But with the same light, any meter can be used to measure the power at the plant tops, and use that reading to adjust from. I believe CO2 and leaf temperature are also important factors in light control. The USB 520 is a nice item.
      Last edited by flylowgethigh; 02-16-2021, 22:24.
      ______________________________ __________________________
      Dr. Tuggle's Compound Syrup of Globe Flower

      https://youtu.be/x0BinEFCp38?t=74

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        #4
        I think the best way to go about it is to disregard the numbers at first when comparing to what you read in articles or grow logs, etc(aside from getting a starting point). Try to set the light to where the plants look exceptionally happy. Then take your readings at that point and work with those. As in, each meter will read the intensity differently, so find what reading yours gives when the plants look the best.

        I fell victim to pushing the intensity and the plants weren't happy. While I am now using some charts as reference ranges in conjunction with a meter, ultimately it's the plants that will decide if it is too much or too little.

        Like flylow stated, higher to excessive light intensity will require co2 supplementation. Vpd (leaf temp/humidity) will also have a great effect on growth and overall wellbeing.
        Fitzera Does Things - Mr Nice, DNA, Bodhi, Peak and Chuck'd Genetics
        Real Gorilla Seeds testers - Headbanger x OPG, C4DD x OPG and Seedsman Comparative grow the White OG
        Winter 2020 HPS/LED 5x5 Tent Supersoil Blumat and Chuck'n Pollen Grow Log

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        IG: @chuckd_genetics

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          #5
          Originally posted by CrustyCruz View Post
          Par, lux, umol, tried learning about this stuff when I bought leds and bleached some plants.. Then I hear leds are different? Meters don't read them right?

          Screw it, I'll check back in 20 years when the truth is canonized. Maybe Jorge can pen a new work by then.
          Thanks for contributing something useful.

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by Fitzera View Post
            I think the best way to go about it is to disregard the numbers at first when comparing to what you read in articles or grow logs, etc(aside from getting a starting point). Try to set the light to where the plants look exceptionally happy. Then take your readings at that point and work with those. As in, each meter will read the intensity differently, so find what reading yours gives when the plants look the best.

            I fell victim to pushing the intensity and the plants weren't happy. While I am now using some charts as reference ranges in conjunction with a meter, ultimately it's the plants that will decide if it is too much or too little.

            Like flylow stated, higher to excessive light intensity will require co2 supplementation. Vpd (leaf temp/humidity) will also have a great effect on growth and overall wellbeing.
            Can you elaborate on the charts you use ?

            Comment


              #7
              I was listening to a podcast from KIS organics last night with Bruce Bugbee. He was saying that light bleaching only occurs when red light comprises more than 60% of the 400-700nm "PAR" spectrum...Also experiments/publications of inclusion of IR alongside PAR in relation to growth seem non existent currently.

              ~5 years ago using basic 80cri 3000k citizen and cree cob chips with minimal IR at 1 light per sq ft around 800ma people were obtaining yields in the 2 gram per watt range by maximizing diffusion with between 500 and 600ppfd across entire canopy without additional CO2.

              Double ended 1000w HPS on 5 ft spacing 4ft above canopy will create 1000PPFD across each 5x5 footprint beneath each light, and the HPS produces ~60% of its spectrum in unusable IR beyond 700nm (according to publications from Gavita) and minimal useable PAR in the 430nm and 662nm Chlorophyl A peaks.

              I experimented with planting germinated seeds into soil outdoors and sprouted them under the max intensity of the sun (2000 PPFD) beginning of 2019. Did this after reading publications on photomorphegensis discussing benefits of starting and finishing plants under the same spectrum and intensity for max productivity. Has me scratching my head on how much and what ratio of spectrum plants can tolerate.
              Originally posted by AVOH
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              Guy, I have been testing coco for years, right out of the bag. It's all salty.

              Suggest you drop the blind faith and use a bit of science.
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              Originally posted by Ibechillin
              Diffused light > Spectrum.
              Science Of Lighting & Plant Reactions (Sticky Thread):

              https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=358147

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              Silicon, The Misunderstood Element:

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              Humic and Fulvic acid information:

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              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by flylowgethigh View Post
                That 500 does not cover the 400-700 spectrum as well as their 520, especially at the higher red freqs.

                https://www.apogeeinstruments.com/sq...ab-description

                But with the same light, any meter can be used to measure the power at the plant tops, and use that reading to adjust from. I believe CO2 and leaf temperature are also important factors in light control. The USB 520 is a nice item.

                So do you use the 520? Im not using any kind of CO2 as I believe most average growers do not as well. Cant seal the closet up and keep bottles around easily. In the winter keeping humidity up is a problem and Im using humidifiers to keep my levels up within reason where I live. Upper 30's to 40% for the moment considering the ambient winter humidity in most homes is in the teens to twenties this time of year. VPD is something I have looked at over the years I have been growing but so long as the humidity levels are in reasonable ranges and lean a tad to the humid side its not a biggie it seems to me.
                Last edited by stickyunderwear; 02-17-2021, 08:13.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by Ibechillin View Post
                  I was listening to a podcast from KIS organics last night with Bruce Bugbee. He was saying that light bleaching only occurs when red light comprises more than 60% of the 400-700nm "PAR" spectrum...Also experiments/publications of inclusion of IR alongside PAR in relation to growth seem non existent currently.

                  ~5 years ago using basic 80cri 3000k citizen and cree cob chips with 1 light per sq ft around 800ma people were obtaining yields in the 2 gram per watt range by maximizing diffusion with between 500 and 600ppfd across entire canopy.

                  I would like to find a reasonably priced spectrometer to see what I have when I plug in the 660 add ons I use for flower. Bought them as a kit from Rapid LED along with a 730 kit for end of light cycle. They dont sell the kits anymore.

                  I tried a couple of the cheap DIY spectrum kits with the available online software but the results were pretty less than crappy.
                  This issue is more of a thing I am just an curious about since common sense guides me to roll back the light especially the last couple weeks of flower.
                  My inner nerd just wants to try and find some data using my meter to have some baselines for future grows for some of the strains I have.
                  This is a new account for me since I had stopped visiting here for a while and couldn't locate my old info. Been growing for a number of years. Less than a decade but more than a few.

                  I have listened to and watched all I can from Bugbee and those grow chambers they have are the shit. Im not out to argue the minutia but try to use some of the info he shares in a general way.
                  Last edited by stickyunderwear; 02-17-2021, 08:24.

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                    #10
                    The plant itself is a great PAR meter.
                    Never Under-estimate the Psychopathic-ness of a Politician

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                      #11
                      Originally posted by St. Phatty View Post
                      The plant itself is a great PAR meter.
                      Yes, the internet can say whatever it likes. It's my plants I'm listening to. We can overlay charts all day long and find them telling different stories. There is not much in terms of the baseline figures a newbie is going to search for. Nothing that can take into account the vast number of variables. I use the cheapest of lux meters as all I need are some numbers to aid repeatability. However it's nice I can do some simple math to get a ppfd number. Aiding me to compare my results to other peoples. However there is never a guarantee somebodies figures are accurate. Buying a meter doesn't mean you can use one. Some of the very best still need the reading correcting by 50% before you get close to the truth. So you may as well just use the $10 one and do the math on that.

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                        #12
                        Originally posted by stickyunderwear View Post
                        Can you elaborate on the charts you use ?
                        I didn't save any links, I just Google umol/s/m2 for cannabis growth and went through a bunch of different articles to get a rough idea of the plants needs in different stages. Then I used the information that ".............." posted in my thread and started putting it all together in regard to what I'm seeing in my tent.
                        Click image for larger version

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                        Edit: I take that back, I did save one chart. In this chart I basically just referenced the ranges given for stages of growth.

                        Click image for larger version

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                        Fitzera Does Things - Mr Nice, DNA, Bodhi, Peak and Chuck'd Genetics
                        Real Gorilla Seeds testers - Headbanger x OPG, C4DD x OPG and Seedsman Comparative grow the White OG
                        Winter 2020 HPS/LED 5x5 Tent Supersoil Blumat and Chuck'n Pollen Grow Log

                        "Chuck'd Genetics"
                        IG: @chuckd_genetics

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                          #13
                          Originally posted by stickyunderwear View Post
                          So do you use the 520? Im not using any kind of CO2 as I believe most average growers do not as well. Cant seal the closet up and keep bottles around easily. In the winter keeping humidity up is a problem and Im using humidifiers to keep my levels up within reason where I live. Upper 30's to 40% for the moment considering the ambient winter humidity in most homes is in the teens to twenties this time of year. VPD is something I have looked at over the years I have been growing but so long as the humidity levels are in reasonable ranges and lean a tad to the humid side its not a biggie it seems to me.
                          No, I have a photobio. I like the 520, especially how it can be plugged into a computer, but not $400 worth of liking. I agree, and I'm in the camp that the plants are the decider on required light power. But it is nice knowing what that number is. My tallest plants are at 340 umols now, since they have grown toward the light. They have more roots, and can take the increased power now. Here is a pic of my "rabbit", a plant that popped 4 days before I planted the dawg pack. It was probably getting too much energy when it was smaller, and didn't have enough root to process it. Seems happy now.

                          And I may be 100% wrong BTW. That may also be too small a cup, or likely too much supplements too early. Because it's first, the rabbit is the guinnie pig.

                          ______________________________ __________________________
                          Dr. Tuggle's Compound Syrup of Globe Flower

                          https://youtu.be/x0BinEFCp38?t=74

                          https://youtu.be/NUmIO_MG5IU?t=87

                          Comment


                            #14
                            i have a few times and still dont know what the numbers mean

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                              #15
                              Originally posted by flylowgethigh View Post
                              That 500 does not cover the 400-700 spectrum as well as their 520, especially at the higher red freqs.

                              https://www.apogeeinstruments.com/sq...ab-description

                              But with the same light, any meter can be used to measure the power at the plant tops, and use that reading to adjust from. I believe CO2 and leaf temperature are also important factors in light control. The USB 520 is a nice item.
                              I kind of was scratching my head over this and I went back to look. Especially since this was an upgrade for an older version for me.

                              I compared the 500 to your supposed better 520. Dude they use the exact same sensor and the specs are the same. The 500 IS a full spectrum. The only diff is one is plugged in via USB to a laptop or desktop and the 500 is self contained. The difference is a correction factor for using UNDER WATER I dont know about you but I dont grow plants underwater.






                              From the Apogee website.



                              Apogee quantum sensor are calibrated to make absolute PPFD measurements in air. The waterproof sensors can be used to make absolute PPFD measurements underwater by applying an immersion effect correction factor, the SQ-420, SQ-520, MQ-210, and MQ-510 already apply the correction factor. For details on making underwater measurements, please refer to Underwater PAR Measurements.
                              Kind of puts a dent any any words from you. Sorry.

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