Bad experience with cbd/thc Oil

[The Revolution]

I recently acquired 10g of 1:1 cbd/thc oil for a family friend. This friend has been battling a rare form of breast cancer for a cpl years now. Doctors have tried all types of chemo and radiation therapy.. Nothing seems to completely stop the cancer. She decided she wanted to try a cbd oil regiment, which I provided for her.
After her first dose, which was very small 25-40mg, taken orally..she reported no bad effects. After about 6 hours she began having panic attacks, and hallucinations..Very high heart rate. Her family was terrified and took her to the hospital where she was sedated, and given fluids for being dehydrated.
Is it possible the very small dose of oil she had caused this effect. I am worried, this will be the end of her trusting the cbd treatment. It took me months to get her to try the oil, and now she is terrified to try it again.
Is it possible that she conjured up these attacks on her own, or could she be highly sensitive to the thc? She is on other medications including ativan, and anti depressants.

 

[aridbud]

My best guess, she's highly sensitive to thc in the oil. Cut down the dose to like 10-15 mg each time. Usually you should increase doses gradually. Could have interacted with SSRI/SRNI she's taking.

 

[The Revolution]

I was assuming the same..

 

[jswick93]

It is important to stay hydrated as well when taking cannabis oil. It does speed up your metabolism.

 

[mowood3479]

wow that's a bummer to hear. Sounds like the dosage was much too high for her. I'd try 5mg n go up slowly from there.. (If she is even willing to try it again)..

 

[The Revolution]

I feel terrible, as she spent most of the morning in the hospital getting fluids, and being sedated..
Her dose was very minimal, she said the size of a mouse turd..
She has had panic attacks in the past so were not sure if it was caused by the oil or not, but the hallucinations lead me to believe so.
I feel really bad, as I wanted only to help her heal, and its caused her more pain..
Im afraid she is not going to try the treatment again, as it terrified her, and I dont blame her. I had to coax her for months to even try it, and when all else failed she tried a small dose, and this happened.. I want nothing but for her to heal and get better, and there's nothing I can do.

 

[jswick93]

I have heard so many people say that 40mg of thc was enough to send them over the edge, anywhere from a little too high to way too high. So for someone who doesn't have experience with it, 25-40mg of even 1:1 oil could definitely have an adverse effect. How was the dosage measured? I don't know much about mouse poop, but that seems large to me...

 

[CannasaurusR]

This illustrates why de-classification and actual science must be applied to the medicinal marijuana movement.

 

[Gray Wolf]

Behind the problem is the wide tolerance for THC. There are brothers and sisters who can become discombobulated on 25% of average low dose.

We usually start new patients out on a THC/CBD blend and administer 3X the oil dose in Citicolene, 20 minutes before the oil dose. Both the CBD and the Citicolene help mollify the psychoactive effects. If this was already high CBD oil, you might try the Citicolene.

 

[Obsidian]

something most don't realize is that we have DNA SNP's specifically for cannabis consumption, and my guess is she has the double capital GG variant that makes cannabis not good for her. Many people who suffer from serious panic attacks imo have this double capital GG variant.
The only way to prove this would be to have her do a DNA test $200.00US and then get it tested for cannabis snp's
which cost $5.00US for a complete health screening.
something to understand is that DNA reveals the truth about a person, many are not ready for the truth to see all the crap in our DNA.

 

[coconutcurry]

She has a high THC sensitivity was the first thought coming to my mind, too. Some time ago I posted a cannabutter receipe here and warned a couple of times to keep thedosage low, exactly for that reason.
But you mentioned also, she had had panic a

 

[coconutcurry]

damn, no edit function, my little son pressed 'enter'...

But you mentioned also, she had had panic attacks before and also that she uses prescriptions drugs like antidepressants etc.
This is a dangerous mixture. She shouldn't use THC/CBD. My 2 cent.

Read my warnings:
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=287025

For someone who panics this is a no-go. If you recommend this next time to somebody, keep some Diazepam (Valium) in your house. That is what calms her down. And most likely this was given to her in hospital.

And btw, my wife doesn't smoke weed. She tried one time and she took just ONE toke of my joint and was completely high and anxiously the whole evening. She never tried again. She is also very sensitive. There are such people.

 

[theJointedOne]

Maybe 1 to 1 isn't ideal. Perhaps a 4 to 1 cbd to THC would be better?

 

[live resin]

I was talking to a PI in the Life Sciences division at Lawrence Berkeley Lab about treating cancer patients with botanical drug substances, and he was very against it for the following reason.

There is a lots of recent research published in reputable journals of medicine and biochemistry that show cannabinoids to have negative interactions with certain pharmaceutical drugs.

In particular, the multi-drug transporter ABCG2 that is often used to transport cancer drugs to the desired location in the body is rendered useless by certain cannabinoids including THC and CBD.

Source: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/17906686/

This is exactly why cannabis needs to be rescheduled so REAL DOCTORS can administer tested pharmaceutical grade cannabis preparations if it is safe with the patient's current medication, and note contraindications and possible adverse side effects.

 

[Dab Strudel]

BUt in that sense, wouldnt you think they would sway the results for what ever consperacy you believe in whether it be the world bankers control, big pharma, NWO, population control , ect. I just think we have the best chance if we did the research ourselves ( as the cannamunity)

 

[Chimera]

Was the medicine tested to confirm the cannabinoid levels? Sounds to me like you seriously overdosed the patient.

Sativex, for example, contains a single dose of 2.7 mg of THC and 2.5 mg of THC. I'm assuming you didn't weigh the dose with an analytical balance as you should have, and
thus probably gave the patient a dose at least equivalent to 10 doses of Sativex, by your own estimates. Although your intentions were good, you probably scared her away from cannabinoids permanently.

if you consider, 1 gram of 15% THC cannabis contains 150 mg of THC (1000 mg x 15%). When taken orally, 150 mg is a HUGE dose. A typical edible dose is anywhere from 10-20 mg of THC in the Colorado adult use market. For a naive user with an unprimed endocannabinoid system that type of dose can lead to serious anxiety and tachycardia (an increased heart-rate).

Here is a chart that outlines a titration schedule for Sativex- please read it over carefully, and consider how much you are actually giving a patient when dosing them. https://www.medicines.org.uk/emc/medicine/23262

Naive patients with no cannabis experience and/or no tolerance should be given extremely small doses to gauge their reaction and sensitivity. As live resins also stated, beware of contraindications with other medications the patient is taking. CBD is known to inhibit some CYP enzymes in the liver, which can inhibit the normal breakdown of other drugs the patient is taking, possibly leading to harmful accumulation or exposure of tissues to toxic levels of therapeutic agents.

I've read on numerous forums where people suggest to others that as high a cannabinoid level as possible is necessary to combat whatever ailment, this is really quite bad advice.

People, BE CAREFUL. Cannabis, especially when taken orally, can be a very potent drug cocktail. When users who have no experience with the drug get a big dose, it can be very, very uncomfortable, as seen here. It can also be potentially dangerous in the interactions with other drugs the user may be taking.

I always suggest naive users dilute the medicine in ethanol to make a tincture which can be taken drop-wise. You can always take more to reach an effective dose. You can't un-take what you have already consumed.

-Chimera

 

[theJointedOne]

Tinctures also kick in relatively fast when compared to stomach ingested edibles, which is beneficial in the attempt to not overdose. Many patients who overdose from edibles eat their initial dose but soon after eat another, simply bc the first hasnt kicked in yet.

With tinctures the psychoactive effects go into effect in about 5 minutes, as opposed to eating something that may take 30-60 (or longer) minutes to kick in

 

[Roji]

Was the medicine tested to confirm the cannabinoid levels? Sounds to me like you seriously overdosed the patient.

Sativex, for example, contains a single dose of 2.7 mg of THC and 2.5 mg of THC. I'm assuming you didn't weigh the dose with an analytical balance as you should have, and
thus probably gave the patient a dose at least equivalent to 10 doses of Sativex, by your own estimates. Although your intentions were good, you probably scared her away from cannabinoids permanently.

if you consider, 1 gram of 15% THC cannabis contains 150 mg of THC (1000 mg x 15%). When taken orally, 150 mg is a HUGE dose. A typical edible dose is anywhere from 10-20 mg of THC in the Colorado adult use market. For a naive user with an unprimed endocannabinoid system that type of dose can lead to serious anxiety and tachycardia (an increased heart-rate).

Here is a chart that outlines a titration schedule for Sativex- please read it over carefully, and consider how much you are actually giving a patient when dosing them. https://www.medicines.org.uk/emc/medicine/23262

Naive patients with no cannabis experience and/or no tolerance should be given extremely small doses to gauge their reaction and sensitivity. As live resins also stated, beware of contraindications with other medications the patient is taking. CBD is known to inhibit some CYP enzymes in the liver, which can inhibit the normal breakdown of other drugs the patient is taking, possibly leading to harmful accumulation or exposure of tissues to toxic levels of therapeutic agents.

I've read on numerous forums where people suggest to others that as high a cannabinoid level as possible is necessary to combat whatever ailment, this is really quite bad advice.

People, BE CAREFUL. Cannabis, especially when taken orally, can be a very potent drug cocktail. When users who have no experience with the drug get a big dose, it can be very, very uncomfortable, as seen here. It can also be potentially dangerous in the interactions with other drugs the user may be taking.

I always suggest naive users dilute the medicine in ethanol to make a tincture which can be taken drop-wise. You can always take more to reach an effective dose. You can't un-take what you have already consumed.

-Chimera

This is precisely why I decided to dilute my thc distillate 9:1 MCT oil to THC for oral usage. It allows microdosing for new patients in a quickly uptaken solution. New users start with mere drops a few times a day and within 6 weeks can be up to 500mg of thc a day with nothing other than fatigue reported as a side effect. This is from a man who has never touched mj in his life before cancer.

 

[Chimera]

This is precisely why I decided to dilute my thc distillate 9:1 MCT oil to THC for oral usage. It allows microdosing for new patients in a quickly uptaken solution. New users start with mere drops a few times a day and within 6 weeks can be up to 500mg of thc a day with nothing other than fatigue reported as a side effect. This is from a man who has never touched mj in his life before cancer.

I don't want my previous post to come off as an attack on The Revolution, it's clear to me that his intent was to help his dear friend- as we all do. This is simply about posting the science of fact, so we can all understand just what it is we are doing when we dose patients. This is not about any person in particular, this is about a cultural practice.

That said, its Roji's turn for an audit. I trust that you guys all take this as if it could be any of you who dose patients with unknown potency tinctures, edibles, or pills.

Roji, did you have your 'distillate' tested by a validated analytical lab? Since there are none operating publicly in Vancouver, I wonder how you can be so sure you are ramping up to 500 mg doses - still, a HUGE dose of orally taken THC!!

Here's an example: I was doing some consulting for a client, and as is often the case, they provided me with some samples - 150 mg decarboxylated-THC hard candies, and a gram of high terpinolene meds for a pre-flight puff. Now consider I am a daily user, and I have a fairly high tolerance; I took a 150 mg oral dose on an empty stomach and was blasted into paranoia land, flushed my remaining stash and snuggled under the covers in my hotel wondering if I would indeed sleep so hard that I'd miss my early flight the next day. I knew the effects, I was able to tell myself "ok Chi, you just got a big ol' dose of THC, these are expected effects and they will wear off by morning... just get some sleep, you'll be fine".

That's all rather irrelevant to this discussion, but included for a laugh and perspective since the edibles were of a known cannabinoid content, tested by a validated lab.

Now imagine I'd never taken cannabis, had no idea of the effects or if they would wear off, how long it would take, or what I could expect in the interim -ie - tachycardia, anxiety, etc. if you don't know the expected effects, a big dose of THC taken orally can be a little scary. Now imagine you just gave that dose to your grandmother.

If you don't test your meds with a validated lab, best case scenario is you are estimating the dose you give to patients. How can you be sure the meds are evenly distributed in the coconut oil or brownie?

Compound the fact that most of the medicine available is Type I, or THC predominant with maybe 1-5% of total cannabinoids being CBD(A), the rest being THC(A). If you are administering an extract, it could well be upwards of 50% THC, or even up to 70% THC, depending on the starting material and extraction process used. In the latter case, that's 700 mg of THC per gram of extract. That's one whopper of a dose.

I just recently visited a laboratory and edibles manufacturer, and audited their lab and manufacturing process. They were making chocolates that were in fact 1 mg of THC per single unit. This is the type of dosing system that is appropriate for naive users, because they can very carefully titrate their dose. It was no small task for them to make an appropriate strength chocolate, and ensure that each piece contained the right amount of cannabinoids. They also made coconut oil sprays with varying ratios of THC:CBD, pills of varying strengths, etc. The point is, without their lab they would have no idea of the strength of their starting materials, and they tested their flowers, extracts, and final products to ensure their calculations were accurate and their products were consistent throughout the process.

If you don't use a lab, and have robust SOP's in your production, you really have no idea to the final concentration of your products.

Cannabis is safe and is not going to kill anyone on it's own. You may get a big dose and experience some paranoia and anxiety and will probably walk it off after a good, deep nap. Dosing yourself that is your choice and your repercussion. Dosing someone else, that's a whole different level of responsibility.

-Chimera

 

[Roji]

I don't want my previous post to come off as an attack on The Revolution, it's clear to me that his intent was to help his dear friend- as we all do. This is simply about posting the science of fact, so we can all understand just what it is we are doing when we dose patients. This is not about any person in particular, this is about a cultural practice.

That said, its Roji's turn for an audit. I trust that you guys all take this as if it could be any of you who dose patients with unknown potency tinctures, edibles, or pills.

Roji, did you have your 'distillate' tested by a validated analytical lab? Since there are none operating publicly in Vancouver, I wonder how you can be so sure you are ramping up to 500 mg doses - still, a HUGE dose of orally taken THC!!

Here's an example: I was doing some consulting for a client, and as is often the case, they provided me with some samples - 150 mg decarboxylated-THC hard candies, and a gram of high terpinolene meds for a pre-flight puff. Now consider I am a daily user, and I have a fairly high tolerance; I took a 150 mg oral dose on an empty stomach and was blasted into paranoia land, flushed my remaining stash and snuggled under the covers in my hotel wondering if I would indeed sleep so hard that I'd miss my early flight the next day. I knew the effects, I was able to tell myself "ok Chi, you just got a big ol' dose of THC, these are expected effects and they will wear off by morning... just get some sleep, you'll be fine".

That's all rather irrelevant to this discussion, but included for a laugh and perspective since the edibles were of a known cannabinoid content, tested by a validated lab.

Now imagine I'd never taken cannabis, had no idea of the effects or if they would wear off, how long it would take, or what I could expect in the interim -ie - tachycardia, anxiety, etc. if you don't know the expected effects, a big dose of THC taken orally can be a little scary. Now imagine you just gave that dose to your grandmother.

If you don't test your meds with a validated lab, best case scenario is you are estimating the dose you give to patients. How can you be sure the meds are evenly distributed in the coconut oil or brownie?

Compound the fact that most of the medicine available is Type I, or THC predominant with maybe 1-5% of total cannabinoids being CBD(A), the rest being THC(A). If you are administering an extract, it could well be upwards of 50% THC, or even up to 70% THC, depending on the starting material and extraction process used. In the latter case, that's 700 mg of THC per gram of extract. That's one whopper of a dose.

I just recently visited a laboratory and edibles manufacturer, and audited their lab and manufacturing process. They were making chocolates that were in fact 1 mg of THC per single unit. This is the type of dosing system that is appropriate for naive users, because they can very carefully titrate their dose. It was no small task for them to make an appropriate strength chocolate, and ensure that each piece contained the right amount of cannabinoids. They also made coconut oil sprays with varying ratios of THC:CBD, pills of varying strengths, etc. The point is, without their lab they would have no idea of the strength of their starting materials, and they tested their flowers, extracts, and final products to ensure their calculations were accurate and their products were consistent throughout the process.

If you don't use a lab, and have robust SOP's in your production, you really have no idea to the final concentration of your products.

Cannabis is safe and is not going to kill anyone on it's own. You may get a big dose and experience some paranoia and anxiety and will probably walk it off after a good, deep nap. Dosing yourself that is your choice and your repercussion. Dosing someone else, that's a whole different level of responsibility.

-Chimera

My distillate is being tested this week at MB labs. I'll also have an in house UPLC with a Waters trained tech running very soon. When I say "distillate" I'm talking about molecular fractions done in a short path distillation set up under extreme control. That procedure allows one to concentrate activated THC, CBD, CBN, etc in very high percentages. Separating them by boiling points. It's not a traditional hash oil. I will post my test results.

I agree with you completely about random oil in edibles being a problem and is irresponsible as a business practice. In the short term its my goal to squash shitty oil companies that profit from this model.