Quest to find out WHY some BHO turns into "butter" or "budder" over time?

[Telegraphist.]

Good day everyone

Thank you for your input KK, you find water content to be a factor then and also a quick/ slow dry makes a difference also? Thank you for documenting that, it would kind of fit in where Kut mentions BHO going like crystalised honey after a while through temperature 'crystalisation' ( i use that word incorrectly but you know what i mean- high/ low temps for evaporation)
Are these indica or sativa or a hybrid type KK can i ask please?

Kut, good day sir
I agree wholeheartedly about iso taste being not so good compared to BHO. Yoe are sadly right about how concentates are viewed globally, but like the liquor, you will always get those distillers who will concentrated their wares, there will others making BHO
Sorry if i came across nastily in my post about purity of butane, was a daft post now i read back on it. Drinking and smoking and internet a big no no i think
Your comments on how BHO 'crystalises' would be appriciated, any idea of crystal structure at all Kut?

 

[Hashmasta-Kut]

pretty sure its just like unpastuerized honey. you know the process it goes under where it gets crystallized over time, budder/pasted oil seems very very similar in its consistancy among other things. i am not positive about this, its just the closest thing i have observed to it. others could research it if they want

 

[Bumble Buddy]

The texture of buddered oil does seem similar to crystallized honey or sugar- though that happens due to the supersaturation of water. I can't picture how that same process could happen in oil though, maybe the terpenes are oxidizing/crytstallizing in reaction to oxygen and water?

 

[hellinahilux]

i noticed when i scrap a nice shiney glob up the bottom half that was stuck on glass is like honey crystalized first before the glob goes that way..

i have had iso that turns hard as glass as well as iso that urned out like a budder consistency,


BHO i have yet to get a solid product yet... but ever batch always getts better as always.

 

[MoldyFrogToe]

After reading every post :twitch: these are the ones I found most relevant
Nice responses and ideas

Only thing I can really say is that budder really isn't crystallized, semantics really but budder isn't crystalline in structure. But good shatter-oil is, if anything.
Someone @ the end of the quote below mentioned honey supersaturating with h2oto create that weird solid-like consistency.
Is this happening with oil? Prob not, I say this because if you let oil purge long and slow it gets hard, eh ehm, h2o is evaporating slowly.
If you purge it quick, generally it doesn't really turn hard because there's water in it. That's my theory at least. Maybe it's not even water, but something else changing due to the purge methods I just described.

I want to look up more on hydrogenation. That's pretty cool.

Foam & Emulsion: Didn'tlook yet at emulsion but foam definitely speeds up the buddering process, meaning buddering can sometimes be dependent on exposure to air, meaning evaporation of h2o or oxidation is at play. Or maybe even reduction from stuff in the air,right? Who knows. Shit.

Also want to check out what's going on with butane - what's it doing- bonding H's to the COO- [from COOH] on our favorite molecules?
What happens chemically to our fav molecules after butane is purged? Are they changed? Do they revert back over time therefore changing consistency of the oil?

Ah so many questions, so many years of chemistry and o-chem, so little retained

Hydrophyllic: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrophyllic

Whiteness and loss of adhesiveness/aroma in dry sift probably at least partially due to evaporation of volatiles, maybe also some oxidation varnish coating build up on the trichomes? Oxidation- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxidation

Budder due to hydrogenation? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogenation -"Hydrogenation results in the conversion of liquid vegetable oils to solid or semi-solid fats, such as those present in margarine. Changing the degree of saturation of the fat changes some important physical properties such as the melting point, which is why liquid oils become semi-solid. Semi-solid fats are preferred for baking because the way the fat mixes with flour produces a more desirable texture in the baked product. Since partially hydrogenated vegetable oils are cheaper than animal source fats, are available in a wide range of consistencies, and have other desirable characteristics (e.g., increased oxidative stability (longer shelf life)), they are the predominant fats used in most commercial baked goods. Fat blends formulated for this purpose are called shortenings."

haha this thread went a little off topic yes?

ppl post saying they arent a fan of oil... then why the f are you on this thread? go make your fucking dry sift you hippies. sorry.

as for the Budder:




1. H2O content... this is, in my mind, a key factor in the transformation to budder. I have made large batches of BHO, and put some in the freezer while leaving some out at room temp. The BHO in the freezer did not transform nearly as much, i believe due to less water evaporation.

2. humidity - evaporation rate (see above) will depend on humidity... slightly. maybe. humidity not a big factor though.

3. oxygen/air - the transformation may be a kind of oxidation process.. Any REAL scientists want to share their thoughts on this?

4. exposure to air - obviously. a thin layer of BHO will crystalize/budderize faster than a glob.

5. purge heat/duration - not a factor, although some like to think it is. a proper purge is a proper purge. I have made budder, glass, and crap-goo, all with the same exact purge methods, just different strains/trim grades.

6. genetics/state of MJ before blowing - bingo! - Certain strains will naturally congeal into budder when purged properly.... Blue Dream, Sour Diesel, OG Kush, Royal Kush, Cocoa Kush, any resinous strain really. all you need is some nice frosty sugar leaves. Other strains, however, will take on a hardcandy/*glass* consistency... and will stay that way for years. (blueberry, i'm looking at you)



I think that we are looking at a combination of 5 or 6 different variables here, maybe more, that determine whether you will get budder and how soon. The easiest way to make budder is simply to use high-grade trim (no fan leaves or stems, just frosty sugar leaves), or buds, of the proper strain.

thoughts....

I thought hydrogenation took place only under decent amounts of heat.

The bho I have that budders never goes above room temp till I'm about to use it.

Do you think the butane could contain a catalyst? It says typical catalyst are metal, and most reactions don't occur till 480C without platinum group metals or some sort of nickle based catalyst.

I'm out of bho now but, when I had it, I kept it all in little plastic containers that I got from med shops. They contained grams of bubble hash. I wonder if the plastic had something to do with it?

I never noticed any difference in taste or effect from either buddered bho or the glassy/sticky kind. It all tasted exactly of the ganja it was made from and very sweet. Only difference was the ease of use.

"Hydrogenation is the chemical reaction that results from the addition of hydrogen (H2). The process is usually employed to reduce or saturate organic compounds. The process typically constitutes the addition of pairs of hydrogen atoms to a molecule. Catalysts are required for the reaction to be usable; non-catalytic hydrogenation takes place only at very high temperatures."

i noticed when i scrap a nice shiney glob up the bottom half that was stuck on glass is like honey crystalized first before the glob goes that way..

i have had iso that turns hard as glass as well as iso that urned out like a budder consistency,


BHO i have yet to get a solid product yet... but ever batch always getts better as always.

The texture of buddered oil does seem similar to crystallized honey or sugar- though that happens due to the supersaturation of water. I can't picture how that same process could happen in oil though, maybe the terpenes are oxidizing/crytstallizing in reaction to oxygen and water?

 

[Ryoko_The_Demon]

I told you guys long ago, it's just a foam.

 

[Telegraphist.]

Has anyone got any good macro close up photographs of budder, oil, and states of matter inbetween?

 

[Shred42O]

look on youtube

 

[MoldyFrogToe]

edit n/m

 

[Deleted member 75858]

I agree wholeheartedly about iso taste being not so good compared to BHO.

It's the method, not the solvent....try washing buds in butane and it will turn out the same as ISO washed for the same amount of time....or force isopropyl alcohol threw a tube and it will come out like BHO.

 

[Deleted member 75858]

Bubble loses water-soluble material

So whats that mean for my plants when it rains outside...?

 

[Chiefsmokingbud]

i noticed when i scrap a nice shiney glob up the bottom half that was stuck on glass is like honey crystalized first before the glob goes that way..

i have had iso that turns hard as glass as well as iso that urned out like a budder consistency,


BHO i have yet to get a solid product yet... but ever batch always getts better as always.

Personally, I believe your oil is only going to be as good as your starting material. I mainly use buds and my oil with a good purge ALWAYS is hard like rock candy. Buds obviously have less leaves and more essential oils where as "trim" is just the opposite. Maybe it's something in the leaves that creates more runny oil.


Now back on topic, I believe oxidization plays a big part in oil turning to budder over time

 

[Telegraphist.]

Does it?

Does it?

It's the method, not the solvent....try washing buds in butane and it will turn out the same as ISO washed for the same amount of time....or force isopropyl alcohol threw a tube and it will come out like BHO.

Try it and find out, documentr what you see happen

 

[Telegraphist.]

Iso has a polar group attached to it so it takes out the polar molecules. Many thousands of extractions prove that, try it and see what happens

 

[MoldyFrogToe]

What I wonder is why both polar and nonpolar works, but also how they differ in terms of what they solubilize off the nug.
Take THC or something, how does butane bond to it vs how does iso bond to it. So much to learn.

 

[Deleted member 75858]

Iso has a polar group attached to it so it takes out the polar molecules. Many thousands of extractions prove that, try it and see what happens

It's slightly polar and would make little to no differnce in a passive extraction or real quick wash....water (rain) is a hell of a lot more polar then ISO

 

[Bumble Buddy]

I told you guys long ago, it's just a foam.

"Triterpenoid saponins are triterpenes which belong to the group of saponin compounds..." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triterpenoid_saponins

"Saponins are a class of chemical compounds, one of many secondary metabolites found in natural sources, with saponins found in particular abundance in various plant species. Specifically, they are amphipathic glycosides grouped phenomenologically by the soap-like foaming they produce when shaken in aqueous solutions..." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saponin