General solvent extracted resin research thread.

[NotGuilty]

Well Jump117, and ganja din, and others...., Reviewing the discussion in the current "Sam Secret 2009" thread, and how it was getting of topic, I have created this. I will be starting this, so as to continue an interesting discussion.

CONCLUSION

When preforming the thermal decarboxylation of cannabinoid acids in either the presence or absense of organic solvents in an open reactor, an optimum temperature at which the volocity of the decarboxylation would be high enough and simultaneous evaporation of neutal cannabinoids would not occur could not be found. Consequently, it is not possible in this manner to obtain an amount of neutral cannabinoids equivalent to that of the cannabinoid acids from which they were decarboxylated. ...

Classical cannabinoids (CCs) are ABC tricyclic terpenoid compounds bearing a benzopyran moiety (Fig. 2) and are insoluble in water but soluble in lipids, alcohols, and other non-polar organic solvents. These phenolic derivatives are more water soluble [AFAIK that's good] as their phenolate salts formed under strong alkaline conditions.

More later.

 

[readlabels]

waiting for later.

 

[purple_man]

high!

try out the following:
ISBN: 0 - 914171 - 40 - (51695)
aka *drum roll*

cannabis alchemy by "d. gold" i think orginally published in: 1973 so go FIGURE...

should be enough "ideas/input" to get one "googlin" the rest, and gathering up to date info...

blessss
ps.: also availible as a pdf scan on torrentz

 

[ganja din]

Hey

IIRC there is incorrect info in that book, just something to keep in mind while reading it. I haven't read it in a long time, but IIRC the decarb info is off, and I think some claims about isomerized CBD into THC is off too.

Ex. One can't use acid to decarb THCA-A into THC, one would need to use strong alkaline solution.

HTH

 

[ganja din]

...And refluxing IMO isn't an ideal method (for home, or lab), yet IIRC DB.Gold spends many pages on refluxing.

 

[purple_man]

hey ganja din!

big ups for the TLC tingie...
like said... it's for "general" ideas... the rest is the (home)"work" of the (al)/"chemist)...

blessss

 

[ganja din]

Thanks. And thanks for the book reference, I think its a good book, I just thought I'd make a quick note.

 

[GanjaGage]

ganja din, you're the man.

i'm gonna have a lot of free time coming up after this week, and i'm planning on reading a lot of the information you provided.

thank you for sharing your research and thoughts.

this is the exact reason why open-source programming is far more promising than closed-source.

instead of the types of people that keep their methods hidden and their achievements to themselves, there are people who band together to try to achieve the same results and make them accessible for everyone to have and share.

don't feel agitated by the criticism of people on this forum, most of them are just trying to share constructive thoughts on your research, albeit in a demeaning manner.

happy holidays.

 

[purple_man]

you are welcome my brother in arms!

i think, as long as the RIGHT people get the RIGHT info, it's all good... no need to "reinvent" and "reiterate" the "conception of the wheel"... *metaphor mode off

ps.: i ain't "judging" just stating, not everyone who has access to substances and "pseudo insight" in potentially "dangerous" endeauvours, should part-take in everything... (ie.: "hey man, screw that, ill do the bho tingy indoor, while smoking a spliff!!! gather round it will be "awsome" type of mentality)

pss.: cannabis already has got WAY TOO MUCH propaganda induced desinformational indoctrination for the masses, so no need, for more "cannon fodder"!

blessss

 

[purple_man]

ps.: the last post was directed at G.D. (sorry, no offence meant G.G.), ...

 

[ganja din]

@ GG,

Thanks. And I totally agree with your open-source vs. closed-source statment! I dabble in programming open-source software

Non-personal secrets are lame and so are the people who keep them.


@ PM,

I didn't understand fully your last post.

All the best to both of you

 

[Gray Wolf]

Besides Cannabis Alchemy by D. Gold, other alchemy sources are:

Dr Atomics Marijuana Multiplier, by Larry S. Todd

Marijuana Gold, by Ed Rosenthal

Marijuana Chemistry, by Michael Starks.

The latter is the best that I have found so far, but they all have tid bids to offer.

GW

 

[NotGuilty]

Okay, sorry "Later" came so late. Busy with holidays and not feeling the greatest.

And it doesn’t explain significant loss of resin during my attempt of decarb at temp of boiling water. There is some pix in my album BHO.

Because of very obvious reason I wasn’t sober enough to expertise a changes of quality but quantity was visibly decreased. Some substances were evaporated.

It was placed in a glass vial covered with a steel ball as an air lock to provide CO2 out only.
The vial was fixed on a saucepan bottom and was exposed for two hours covered with boiling water to a half of it’s height.
There was no boiling or bubbling observed inside the vial.
Then bho was removed from a vial via dissolving in ethanol and collected again and showed a visible loss of amount of bho.

What would you estimate the loss to be % wise? I think you are always going to lose Quantity on decarb. due to the change in molar mass. ThcA 358.47 changes to THC 314.45 (g/mol). This would cause ~13% decrease in weight, plus any loss of any H2O present from the BHO process. (will always condense some water vapour) Is this close to what you experienced Jump?

 

[NotGuilty]

I also wanted to throw this up here:

And discuss the action of this conversion.

NOTE: it appears the top THC has the double bonds in the incorrect position. It also appears the THCA is not showing the methyl groups which are present I belive.

 

[jump117]

decarboxylation

decarboxylation

Hi NotGilty ,
I can not estimate the loss more precise but visually it was around 25%.
When I've tried to process decarboxylation, I was not going to prepare any oral ingestion,
just wanted to strengthen the stuff to test if it will break through my tolerance. In short word - failed.

It was a play-experiment using very simple equipment in my kitchen alchemical laboratory,
no scales, no numbers in notes, only visual estimations and photo.

I used BHO made from Mazar, it was made using tube type extractor with activated carbon filter on exit,
Spaniard style, that is why you may see small particles of carbon inside the resin.


It was placed in a glass vial covered with a steel ball as an air lock to provide CO2 out only, no O2 in.
The vial was fixed on a saucepan bottom and was exposed for two hours covered with boiling water to a half of it’s height.
The temperature was close to but not exceed boiling water.

There was no boiling or bubbling of melted BHO observed inside the vial.
Then BHO was removed from a vial via dissolving in ethanol.
Some clouds appear in ethanol, I suppose it was condensed or accidental drop of water. Coffee filter stops nothing.


Then it was evaporated and collected again and showed a visible loss of amount of bho.

After the procedure where BHO was being in melted state for two hours it didn’t loose it’s dense but became a little denser,
it holds a form at room temp as before but still is sticky and not brittle vs ethanol quick amber.
Color didn’t changed.

I can not comment the process on a scientific level being not educated as chemist. And I have a question for educated ones.
Q: Are there any good curing processes (except decarboxylation) going in extracted resin heads secretion with time,
or there is only useless and destructive oxidation?

 

[NotGuilty]

Jump that looks nice. The difference is hard to quantify without a common item for size comparison. The ethanol pic looks like more than just water.... Do I see a water/oil separation looking layer on top? or was that below 0°F?

 

[jump117]

Hi NotGuilty,
Agree with what you have said, it was subjective visual quantifying of the loss,
as I've said before it was just a play-experiment with no measurings.

After two hours of exposition in boiling water temp I let the vial to calm down and add ethanol inside,
the vial and the solvent both were at near room temperature.

Modified BHO dissolved quickly without sediment but shows a cloud like a piece of cotton wool hanging inside the solution,
it was not looking like milky homogeneous mix of ethanol with water, the "wool" was looking more structural like any gel substance.

It wasn't look like polar/nonpolar layer separation there was only one layer in the vial.

I filtered this through a coffee filter and observed none or very minimum slime residue in a filter,
the solution passed through the filter became clear and transparent, it was evaporated on double boiler and collected.

In spite of multiple heating the processed BHO didn't turn its color to dark and didn't lost its dense but quite the contrary it became a little denser.

I haven't noticed significant (or any) improvement of quality, to me it was good before and stayed good after,
and both were over strength to other experts involved.

I am seriously doubt that this naive observations may shine a light on the problem but as they say about difficulties
- "successfulness of urinating against the wind depends only on pressure applied! "