Any info from users on this would be help full.
-
Happy Birthday ICMag! Been 20 years since Gypsy Nirvana created the forum! We are celebrating with a 4/20 Giveaway and by launching a new Patreon tier called "420club". You can read more here.
-
Important notice: ICMag's T.O.U. has been updated. Please review it here. For your convenience, it is also available in the main forum menu, under 'Quick Links"!
Anyone use Peg 40, Polyoxyethylene Sorbitol Hexaoleate, Surfactant
- Thread starter shaggyballs
- Start date
Anyone have anything to add?
What do you want with a surfactant and more specifically this one?
There are actually a lot of surfactants and many are natural, nature-identical and/or environmental friendly. That means, knowing what and why helps finding the ideal candidate
.
BTW Infos on surfactants are pretty abundant in the field of galenics.
There are actually a lot of surfactants and many are natural, nature-identical and/or environmental friendly. That means, knowing what and why helps finding the ideal candidate
.BTW Infos on surfactants are pretty abundant in the field of galenics.
photoperiodic
Member
NO BUT I DO ADD IVORY LAUNDRY SOAP TEASPOON ONCE A WEEK PER GALLON AS A surfactant. surfactants help the water to saturate the soil.it breaks the surface tension of the watwer making it waterier
soap is a last resort!!
What do you want with a surfactant and more specifically this one?
There are actually a lot of surfactants and many are natural, nature-identical and/or environmental friendly. That means, knowing what and why helps finding the ideal candidate
BTW Infos on surfactants are pretty abundant in the field of galenics.
I use surfactants for foliar feeding and pest control.
I was under the impression this one works well with natural oils for mites!
I believe it also works as a leaf penetrator ????
I currently use yucca mixed with things like glutamic acid ascorbic acid and the like for feeding.
But I am always looking for other combinations depending on use.
I don't know much on this subject.
But I think you are right!!! DUH
The right one for the right job.
Could you list a few natural alternatives for penetrating action and also for lowing the surface tension of a foiliar bug spray(oil based)
Is it true Calcium nitrate works to penetrate the leaf??
In the case of Polyoxyethylene Sorbitol Hexaoleate I was wondering of it's advantages!
If any?
galenics??
That looks over my head but I can see where it would have merit!!!
I will continue to seek knowledge on the subject!!
Thanks
shag
Hi Shaggy,
Let me take your post apart:
soap is a last resort!!
Soap is nothing else than surfactants. Depending on the soap used it may be better or worse than what you like .
I use surfactants for foliar feeding and pest control.
Foliar feeding with what? Minerals, trace elements, vitamins or 'food additives'?
I was under the impression this one works well with natural oils for mites!
This one has a HLB of 10. HLB is a coefficient telling you the preference for water v.s. oil. In this case, it means that the detergent is best used for water in oil emulsions. When spraying your plants, you usually use the opposite, an oil in water emulsions (i.e. tiny droplets of oil floating in water).
But if you really spray oil... not sure how far the plants appreciate that...
I believe it also works as a leaf penetrator ????
Judging from the structure and the HLB, you might be right. But many such nonionic PEG/fatty acid surfactants do.
I currently use yucca mixed with things like glutamic acid ascorbic acid and the like for feeding.
But I am always looking for other combinations depending on use.
Could you list a few natural alternatives for penetrating action and also for lowing the surface tension of a foiliar bug spray(oil based)
Why don't you use natural detergents with that? I'm talking about saponins; very mild 'soaps' for the environment and the plants but which still efficiently help killing insects. Very high concentrations are found in:
- Soap bark (Quillaja saponaria)http://www.dict.cc/englisch-deutsch/bark.htmlhttp://www.dict.cc/englisch-deutsch/[saponaria].html
- Primrose roots (Primula veris & P. eliator)
- Seneca snakeroot (Polygala senega)
- Soapberry (Sapindus saponaria)
And a little less in:
- Primrose flowers (Primula veris, P. eliator and others)
- Common soapwort (Saponaria officinalis)
- Ivy (Hedera helix)
Just make a tea (infusion) like brewing black or mint tea for yourself and use that; don't drink it, because it may cause you to throw up heavily within after a few minutes !
When you shake the solution it should foam a little. To find the optimal concentration, spray a bit on a piece of glass to see if the droplets rolls off (too weak) or if the water spreads nicely.
Is it true Calcium nitrate works to penetrate the leaf??
Never heard of that and can't think of anything that'd explain it... ???
In the case of Polyoxyethylene Sorbitol Hexaoleate I was wondering of it's advantages!
If any?
No idea; to me it looks more like a very special one used in research labs and alike. I think common polysorbates (Tween), Span or Brij would work as well. With these detergent series you can quite freely chose the HLB (like Tween 20 being very good for oil in water and quite the opposite of the one in this topic).
So, I stop here for now, coffee's calling
Let me take your post apart:
soap is a last resort!!
Soap is nothing else than surfactants. Depending on the soap used it may be better or worse than what you like
.I use surfactants for foliar feeding and pest control.
Foliar feeding with what? Minerals, trace elements, vitamins or 'food additives'?
I was under the impression this one works well with natural oils for mites!
This one has a HLB of 10. HLB is a coefficient telling you the preference for water v.s. oil. In this case, it means that the detergent is best used for water in oil emulsions. When spraying your plants, you usually use the opposite, an oil in water emulsions (i.e. tiny droplets of oil floating in water).
But if you really spray oil... not sure how far the plants appreciate that...
I believe it also works as a leaf penetrator ????
Judging from the structure and the HLB, you might be right. But many such nonionic PEG/fatty acid surfactants do.
I currently use yucca mixed with things like glutamic acid ascorbic acid and the like for feeding.
But I am always looking for other combinations depending on use.
Could you list a few natural alternatives for penetrating action and also for lowing the surface tension of a foiliar bug spray(oil based)
Why don't you use natural detergents with that? I'm talking about saponins; very mild 'soaps' for the environment and the plants but which still efficiently help killing insects. Very high concentrations are found in:
- Soap bark (Quillaja saponaria)http://www.dict.cc/englisch-deutsch/bark.htmlhttp://www.dict.cc/englisch-deutsch/[saponaria].html
- Primrose roots (Primula veris & P. eliator)
- Seneca snakeroot (Polygala senega)
- Soapberry (Sapindus saponaria)
And a little less in:
- Primrose flowers (Primula veris, P. eliator and others)
- Common soapwort (Saponaria officinalis)
- Ivy (Hedera helix)
Just make a tea (infusion) like brewing black or mint tea for yourself and use that; don't drink it, because it may cause you to throw up heavily within after a few minutes
!When you shake the solution it should foam a little. To find the optimal concentration, spray a bit on a piece of glass to see if the droplets rolls off (too weak) or if the water spreads nicely.
Is it true Calcium nitrate works to penetrate the leaf??
Never heard of that and can't think of anything that'd explain it... ???
In the case of Polyoxyethylene Sorbitol Hexaoleate I was wondering of it's advantages!
If any?
No idea; to me it looks more like a very special one used in research labs and alike. I think common polysorbates (Tween), Span or Brij would work as well. With these detergent series you can quite freely chose the HLB (like Tween 20 being very good for oil in water and quite the opposite of the one in this topic).
So, I stop here for now, coffee's calling
Okay, back again for some more.
It may be helpful to know a little bit about surfactants in general.
There are different types of surfactants; nonionic, cationic, anioinc, and zwitterionic (amphoteric) ones. Their charge or absence thereof dictates already several effects.
Nonionic detergents like many polyoxyethylene derivatives work well with high ion concentrations (especially calcium) and may complex potassium. The polyoxyethylene part is not readily degraded but serves as a moistener in the soil (it maintains a fine film of water on the soil particles). They are relatively harmless and gentle with the plants and micro-organisms. Many are often pretty active (that means the critical micelle concentration or CMC is low) and one does not need much for a wetting effect (like Tween-20); others are not soluble in water like sorbitane esters (e.g. Span-80). Polyoxyethylene-fatty acid conjugates (i.e. Brij) are known as good penetrators but like Spans may stick too well to the plants cuticle and hence reduce its protective functions for a prolonged time.
Another group of nonionic detergents are the glycoside alkyl ethers and esters; best known from 'no tears' baby shampoos. They are very mild and biodegradable and have a range of beneficial effects but to my knowledge are seldom available in pure form (apart form expensive research quality). The esters are way faster degraded (to 'sugar' and 'fat') than the ethers and should be preferred when applied to plants.
The last common group are alkylphenoxypolyethylenglycole derivatives like Triton X-100; as terrible as the name sounds, don't use them on plants because of lacking biodegradability and the aromatic part (may cause problems when smoked).
Cationic detergents are also known as invert soaps. They contain a quaternary ammonium moiety rendering them less biodegradable and often highly active against micro-organisms like soil dwelling helpers. In my opinion they are a no-go on plants but may be used in sanitising a grow room (e.g. floor).
Anionic detergents are the old standard soaps and detergents (and there are also newer ones ). Traditional soap (free fatty acids) and cheap dish washing agents (SDS aka sodium dodecyl sulfate) belong to this group. Free fatty acids are quickly biodegraded but they are often not very strong and their characteristics highly depend on the counter ion; they are rather obsolete apart from shaving cream and natural soft soap (often used in organic farming as pesticide!). SDS and the more recently employed sodium laureth sulfate are amongst the strongest detergents (like with duct tape, a drop of soap often does the trick, no matter which trick you try); but they may damage the plants and beneficial micro-organisms along the way. They should not be used together with higher amounts of minerals (especially calcium) because of precipitation but due to the low quantities necessary may be used now and then as a wetting agent without obvious side effects.
Zwitterionic detergents are also pretty efficient but often less aggressive than anionic ones. Many are semi-natural (nature identical) like betains (used as foam booster) or even completely natural like phospholipids (lecithin). Mainly lecithin is of interest; it is highly efficient and can bind enormous quantities of oil in water (see mayonnaise) but even though remains very gentle to humans and plants. It is also able to complex calcium without loosing its activity. Obviously, it is quickly biodegradable (a source of choline, inositol and phosphate), edible (!), but unfortunately not that stable (turns rancid). Lecithin is a great stuff but depending on the quality has to be degreased with acetone prior to use and it may be tricky to form sufficiently stable preparations with kitchen utensils...
Forgot something but got to go quickly...
It may be helpful to know a little bit about surfactants in general.
There are different types of surfactants; nonionic, cationic, anioinc, and zwitterionic (amphoteric) ones. Their charge or absence thereof dictates already several effects.
Nonionic detergents like many polyoxyethylene derivatives work well with high ion concentrations (especially calcium) and may complex potassium. The polyoxyethylene part is not readily degraded but serves as a moistener in the soil (it maintains a fine film of water on the soil particles). They are relatively harmless and gentle with the plants and micro-organisms. Many are often pretty active (that means the critical micelle concentration or CMC is low) and one does not need much for a wetting effect (like Tween-20); others are not soluble in water like sorbitane esters (e.g. Span-80). Polyoxyethylene-fatty acid conjugates (i.e. Brij) are known as good penetrators but like Spans may stick too well to the plants cuticle and hence reduce its protective functions for a prolonged time.
Another group of nonionic detergents are the glycoside alkyl ethers and esters; best known from 'no tears' baby shampoos. They are very mild and biodegradable and have a range of beneficial effects but to my knowledge are seldom available in pure form (apart form expensive research quality). The esters are way faster degraded (to 'sugar' and 'fat') than the ethers and should be preferred when applied to plants.
The last common group are alkylphenoxypolyethylenglycole derivatives like Triton X-100; as terrible as the name sounds, don't use them on plants because of lacking biodegradability and the aromatic part (may cause problems when smoked).
Cationic detergents are also known as invert soaps. They contain a quaternary ammonium moiety rendering them less biodegradable and often highly active against micro-organisms like soil dwelling helpers. In my opinion they are a no-go on plants but may be used in sanitising a grow room (e.g. floor).
Anionic detergents are the old standard soaps and detergents (and there are also newer ones
). Traditional soap (free fatty acids) and cheap dish washing agents (SDS aka sodium dodecyl sulfate) belong to this group. Free fatty acids are quickly biodegraded but they are often not very strong and their characteristics highly depend on the counter ion; they are rather obsolete apart from shaving cream and natural soft soap (often used in organic farming as pesticide!). SDS and the more recently employed sodium laureth sulfate are amongst the strongest detergents (like with duct tape, a drop of soap often does the trick, no matter which trick you try); but they may damage the plants and beneficial micro-organisms along the way. They should not be used together with higher amounts of minerals (especially calcium) because of precipitation but due to the low quantities necessary may be used now and then as a wetting agent without obvious side effects.Zwitterionic detergents are also pretty efficient but often less aggressive than anionic ones. Many are semi-natural (nature identical) like betains (used as foam booster) or even completely natural like phospholipids (lecithin). Mainly lecithin is of interest; it is highly efficient and can bind enormous quantities of oil in water (see mayonnaise) but even though remains very gentle to humans and plants. It is also able to complex calcium without loosing its activity. Obviously, it is quickly biodegradable (a source of choline, inositol and phosphate), edible (!), but unfortunately not that stable (turns rancid). Lecithin is a great stuff but depending on the quality has to be degreased with acetone prior to use and it may be tricky to form sufficiently stable preparations with kitchen utensils...
Forgot something but got to go quickly...
Thanks for that it is like a little guide to surfactants.
I know I will still have questions ...but I need to take it all in!
Thank you again!!!!
shag
I know I will still have questions ...but I need to take it all in!
Thank you again!!!!
shag
