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Nighttime starch degradation, the circadian clock, and plant growth

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  • earthwyrms
    replied
    i thought to transfer this over here too, as i think it contains relevent data, the carbohydrate part in the one abstract and the effect of temperature on cycles independent of of other factors in another. it references someone else so here's the block data...

    post #9
    https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=312411



    Originally posted by earthwyrms View Post
    ok, i realize it wasn't that.

    the link the person posted on the water cress/Arabidopsis thaliana

    http://www.jstor.org/stable/1514476?...n_tab_contents

    says in the abstract
    >"Using this new system we demonstrated that, under continuous light, there was a longer circadian period for both stomatal conductance and CO2 fixation in the zietlupe (ztl-1) mutant compared to wild type."
    >"Wild-type ZTL expression is therefore required for normal cycles of CO@ fixation and stomatal conductance. Furthermore, we demonstrate that different circadian periods can coexist in a single plant, highlighting the cell autonomous nature of the plant circadian oscillator"

    what i looked through so far is also not about cannabis specifically.

    http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2FBF00194433
    about Phaseolus vulgaris L/common bean

    "
    Abstract

    Persistent circadian rhythms in photosynthesis and stomatal opening occurred in bean (Phaseolus vulgaris L.) plants transferred from a natural photoperiod to a variety of constant conditions. Photosynthesis, measured as carbon assimilation, and stomatal opening, as conductance to water vapor, oscillated with a freerunning period close to 24 h under constant moderate light, as well as under light-limiting and CO2-limiting conditions. The rhythms damped under constant conditions conducive to high photosynthetic rates, as did rates of carbon assimilation and stomatal conductance, and this damping correlated with the accumulation of carbohydrate. No rhythm in respiration occurred in plants transferred to constant darkness, and the rhythm in stomatal opening damped rapidly in constant darkness. Damping of rhythms also occurred in leaflets exposed to constant light and CO2-free air, demonstrating that active photosynthesis and not simply light was necessary for sustained expression of these rhythms.
    " "This is CIWDPB Publication No. 1142

    This research was supported by National Science Foundation grant BSR 8717422 (C.B.F.) and a U.S. Department of Agriculture training grant to Stanford University (T.L.H.)." "Article

    Planta

    March 1993, Volume 189, Issue 3, pp 369-376" <<< and still costs money, "

    $39.95 / €34.95 / £29.95 *
    "
    ^^^^it says "The rhythms damped under constant conditions conducive to high photosynthetic rates, as did rates of carbon assimilation and stomatal conductance, and this damping correlated with the accumulation of carbohydrate"
    and when they removed the CO2 from otherwise good conditions, the damping of cycles occured. it doesn't say what damping is.

    http://www.plantphysiol.org/content/96/3/831.abstract

    about Phaseolus vulgaris L/common bean (says here red kidney bean)

    "
    Abstract

    Net carbon assimilation and stomatal conductance to water vapor oscillated repeatedly in red kidney bean, Phaseolus vulgaris L., plants transferred from a natural photoperiod to constant light. In a gas exchange system with automatic regulation of selected environmental and physiological variables, assimilation and conductance oscillated with a free-running period of approximately 24.5 hours. The rhythms in carbon assimilation and stomatal conductance were closely coupled and persisted for more than a week under constant conditions. A rhythm in assimilation occurred when either ambient or intercellular CO2 partial pressure was held constant, demonstrating that the rhythm in assimilation was not entirely the result of stomatal effects on CO2 diffusion. Rhythms in assimilation and conductance were not expressed in plants grown under constant light at a constant temperature, demonstrating that the rhythms did not occur spontaneously but were induced by an external stimulus. In plants grown under constant light with a temperature cycle, a rhythm was entrained in stomatal conductance but not in carbon assimilation, indicating that the oscillators driving the rhythms differed in their sensitivity to environmental stimuli.
    " <<<this one is free for view/download on the pdf
    these parts
    >>"The rhythms damped under constant conditions conducive to high photosynthetic rates, as did rates of carbon assimilation and stomatal conductance, and this damping correlated with the accumulation of carbohydrate."
    >>"Rhythms in assimilation and conductance were not expressed in plants grown under constant light at a constant temperature, demonstrating that the rhythms did not occur spontaneously but were induced by an external stimulus."
    >>>>>"In plants grown under constant light with a temperature cycle, a rhythm was entrained in stomatal conductance but not in carbon assimilation, indicating that the oscillators driving the rhythms differed in their sensitivity to environmental stimuli."

    it seems the temperature changes did something

    the poster also listed this one http://www.plantphysiol.org/content/102/3/859.full.pdf which is extensive and i did not read yet.

    i stumbled on to this page http://www.mrnice.nl/forum/6-breeder...synthesis.html

    when i was stumbled on Carbon fixation types from the link of the poster http://web.archive.org/web/200303060.../2385/rate.htm
    where it says "Oxygen
    Oxygen competes with carbon dioxide for the active site of RuBP carboxylase, the carbon dioxide fixing enzyme. This means that relatively high concentrations of oxygen, for example the 21% in our atmosphere, inhibit photosynthesis. Oxygen does not inhibit carbon dioxide fixation in the C4 plants. "

    it doesn't have any sources besides "Created by Nicola Kerrison" and i don't know where it is from and i searched to see if cannabis is C4 and saw that page after being confused because i saw some places it was said to be C3, no where that seemed to be a good source. and when i skimmed "C3 carbon fixation" on wikipedia
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C3_carbon_fixation

    i read "C3 plants cannot grow in hot areas because RuBisCO incorporates more oxygen into RuBP as temperatures increase. This leads to photorespiration, which leads to a net loss of carbon and nitrogen from the plant and can, therefore, limit growth. In dry areas, C3 plants shut their stomata to reduce water loss, but this stops CO2 from entering the leaves and, therefore, reduces the concentration of CO2 in the leaves. This lowers the CO2:O2 ratio and, therefore, also increases photorespiration. C4 and CAM plants have adaptations that allow them to survive in hot and dry areas, and they can, therefore, out-compete C3 plants."

    and i thought it didn't make sense if cannabis is in the hot tropical regions
    so i haven't read through http://www.mrnice.nl/forum/6-breeder...synthesis.html yet and hope to








    the posters R043 pointed me towards,

    secondtry

    "

    "

    "

    "

    "

    "

    then the quote from last last post

    "

    "

    the infrared light thing may do something as that was 2010 and now there are 730nm in full spectrum LEDs

    Blckbrd wrote

    "

    "

    "

    "

    "

    "

    ShroomDr had posted right before Blckbrd

    "

    "

    and last and not least, actually first breakthrough on the thread posted by LJB

    "
    "

    i hope that helps getting it concentrated
    thanks

    Leave a comment:


  • Only Ornamental
    replied
    Originally posted by Stradel View Post
    Omg
    That's what I thought too . I didn't really get what the maths are about... ???

    Cannabis is dependent on a circadian rhythm even if only (I should say 'mainly but likely not exclusively', otherwise all those fancy additives wouldn't do shit) the night length causes a plant to flower or not. Still, there's a whole machinery of genes, RNAs, proteins and so on regulating the plant's life and how it reacts to day and night length. These are omnipresent in plants (though not all in every plant) and messing with them seems to be sub-par or at least not beneficial in a way that benefits overrule drawbacks.

    Leave a comment:


  • Stradel
    replied
    Omg

    Leave a comment:


  • earthwyrms
    replied
    semi random hunch...
    , because i read cannabis doesn't go by circadian rythm on post 25 by secondtry here https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=156499&page=2

    "The main benefits are greater net photosynthesis, carbon assimilation, carbohydrate partitioning, etc, and in cannabis that seems to equate to increased growth and yield. Below I posted my references on the science. I am not sure what you mean by "on" time. Each day is 28 hours, not 24; so a week is 196 hours, not 168 hours. We can change the hours of one full day (daylength plus nightlength) because cannabis isn't dependent upon circadian rhythm, it is dependent upon hours of darkness for flowering and for not-flowering."


    and i read that someones delayed popping seeds popped on or around the new moon phases.

    given, not so documented scientifically the way i am putting it and i don't know where the above quote was taken from, experience, studies, interpretations of studies....

    what if cannabis is effected by the Moon

    maybe

    all the plants are kept in artificial darkness now, maybe
    there could be control studies
    absolute darkness>>kind of like new moon
    full moon spectrum output
    varients of lux levels being equivalent to full moon levels
    varients of photon mol count being equivalent to full moon levels
    sweeping amounts that cycle as the moon does
    sweeping amounts that cycle as the moon does, out of phase with the moon, ie: start at full moon darkness when new moon
    do the last 3 with the two varient types
    the hours haven't been mentioned so 12/12 for start maybe

    and besides that what if one uses an automatic mister of molasses solution on the leaves. the night time could be maybe extended (if cannabis isn't different already than the peas) and the system could be flushed with water when misting the next day to clean out the molasses residue so it doesn't get bacteria or mold and repeated.

    what if, if there is a small light source replicating the moon or with infrared camera to see otherwise.

    , the foilar feeding be done manually, using a mister or dropper bottle,
    not around harvest i guess as it stays in the plant from what you people were writing. as far as flowering phase, maybe a dropper bottle could help minimize buds getting sugars on them so they don't mold. one step further, weirdly, what if there is an injectable septum installed on a plant that can be metered a sugar or polysaccharide solution, that seals from contamination?

    lastly i took the info from here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_month#Synodic_month
    "Since the Earth's orbit around the Sun is elliptical and not circular, the angular rate of Earth's progression around the Sun varies during the year. The angular rate is faster nearer periapsis and slower near apoapsis. The same is so for the Moon's orbit around the Earth. Because of these variations in angular rate, the actual time between lunations may range from about 29.18 to about 29.93 days. The long-term average duration is 29.530587981 days (29 d 12 h 44 min 2.8016 s).[citation needed] The synodic month is used to calculate eclipse cycles."

    i like playing with numbers and if they work with other stuff,
    so if 29.18, 29.93 and 29.530587981 are each, themselves multiplied by 24 (just because it is the number of hours in a day) get those numbers, square root them, and get the number of days of the same amount of hours makes up a day of moon cycle hours. like a full cycle of moon changes in brightness times a days span to get the hours, square rooted to get an equal amount of days of the same hours and then halved to get a day/night sequence.

    low 29.18*24=700.32>square root>26.46355985>divide by two> 13.23177993...13.23/13.23 light cycle

    high 29.93*24=718.32>square root>26.8014925>divide by two>
    13.40074625...13.4/13.4 light cycle

    average 29.530587981*24=708.7341115>sq uare root>26.62206062>divide by two>
    13.31103031...13.31/13.31 light cycle

    maybe cannabis if different

    Leave a comment:


  • Only Ornamental
    replied
    Originally posted by GET MO View Post
    wouldnt those starches and sugars add to your yield? or do they not weight that much?
    They do .
    But as mentioned already above by someone else; high sugar/starch levels in the final product are not desirable. Tobacco farmers know this for centuries. On the other hand, flowers and "sucker" leaves are sink tissues and hence way less affected by night-time starch degradation than are fan leaves (and it's the latter one uses for tobacco production).
    As a side note, one effect (if not the most important one IMHO) of proper flushing is a starvation response pushing the plant to invest more energy (= carbohydrates) into their root zone and diminishing aboveground starch accumulation.

    Leave a comment:


  • Only Ornamental
    replied
    Making a plant to "get used to" a non-24 h based day will be anything but simple because some of the "molecular switches" (notably, we don't even know all involved mechanisms of the circadian clock) involve degradation and half-lives on a chemical level. This means, the plant would have to express either completely new chemicals or at least different amino acid or RNA sequences. Seems like the circadian clock is a very-very old machinery possibly as old as life on earth. Changing one might require to change the other...
    Certainly, there are effects such as sugar translocation and starvation signals which might be adjustable especially with human interventions but these do not suffice to really change the internal clock.
    But I like the idea of tweaking those things with the hope of altering the plants physiology in a way beneficial for our intentions.

    Leave a comment:


  • earthwyrms
    replied
    Originally posted by floral View Post
    An important hallmark of the circadian clock is its free-running 24-h rhythm. Free running refers to the fact that, once entrained by light signals, the circadian clock maintains a 24- h rhythm in continuous light or continuous darkness, anticipating dusk and dawn according to previously encountered conditions. In fact, the property of being a 24-h timer has revealed the involvement of the circadian clock in the control of starch degradation. When plants are grown in light–dark cycles shorter or longer than 24 h, abnormal starch degradation patterns are observed during the night. In 28-h light–dark cycles (14 h of light, 14 h of darkness), starch is degraded extremely fast, so reserves are exhausted before dawn—specifically, at 10 h into the night rather than at the actual dawn after 14 h of night (Fig. 1b).

    so if the plant is kept on a non 24 hr light cycle it won't lock in and can start to get used to/mutate to another one?

    so if it is on a 23/13 cycle, then foliar sprays at night towards the end of the dark period could offset the starvation/boost growth?
    (someone here said sativas need at least 13dark to go to flower immediately and 23 light gives it 36 which is a half day cycle off )

    what if it gets used to a pattern of cycles rather than a fixed one 13/13, 14/13, 15/13, 16/13, 17/13, 18/13, 19/13, 20/13, 21/13, 22/13, 23/13, 22/13, 21/13, 20/13, 19/13, 18/13, 17/13, 16/13, 15/13, 14/13.......

    13/13, 14/13, 14/14, 15/14, 15/15, 16/15, 17/14, 18/14, 19/14, 19/15, 19/14, 18/14, 17/14, 16/15, 15/15, 15/14, 14/14, 14/13.....


    or 11/13, 12/13, 13/13, 14/13, 15/13, 16/13, 17/13, 18/13, 19/13, 20/13, 21/13, 22/13, 23/13, 22/13, 21/13, 20/13, 19/13, 18/13, 17/13, 16/13, 15/13, 14/13, 13/13, 12/13.......
    which i think gives it 720hr cycles

    12/13, 13/13, 14/13, 15/13, 16/13, 17/13, 18/13, 19/13, 20/13, 21/13, 22/13, 23/13, 22/13, 21/13, 20/13, 19/13, 18/13, 17/13, 16/13, 15/13, 14/13, 13/13...
    i think gives 671, one hour short of 672 which is 28*24, approximately a full moon cycle in days times the hours in a day

    just wondering

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  • GET MO
    replied
    wouldnt those starches and sugars add to your yield? or do they not weight that much?

    Leave a comment:


  • Jonny Lan
    replied
    cool thread can't wait to hear dkgrowers results

    Leave a comment:


  • GET MO
    replied
    interesting read... I always did my outdoor when it smelled best, some strains smelt better in morning, others in afternoon.

    Leave a comment:


  • Max Headroom
    replied
    Originally posted by floral View Post
    An important hallmark of the circadian clock is its free-running 24-h rhythm. Free running refers to the fact that, once entrained by light signals, the circadian clock maintains a 24- h rhythm in continuous light or continuous darkness, anticipating dusk and dawn according to previously encountered conditions.
    interesting!
    i guess that's why i had troubles last time, when i had day-time in veg from 9AM to 3AM but in flower switched to 7PM to 7AM?

    Leave a comment:


  • floral
    replied
    Originally posted by Dkgrower View Post
    I tryed with killer queen i harvest a good amount after i extended the dark periode by 2 houres - cutting them down in the dark

    For the other end off the spectrum i harvest again a desent amount just before ligth out -
    Dkgrower, how did your test turn out? Any differences?

    Leave a comment:


  • trichrider
    replied
    "Providing sugar in the growth medium prevents carbon starvation during the night and
    restores normal plant growth."

    molassess...

    uh, when you dry/cure isn't the plant using up those starch/sugar reserves?
    it makes sense to start with the smallest amount though.

    ...and you're removing the fans which store those sugars/starches prior to drying, right?

    when you burn sugar it is disgustingly ugly, you wouldn't want that in your flowers.

    monitor senescence to alleviate chlorophyll exposure by removing fan leaves as they yellow. translocation thus relies on storage in smaller sugar leaves which depletes them of their sugar load.

    it may well reduce yeild, but as a personal grower, i could shive a git.

    Leave a comment:


  • floral
    replied
    Auxins are regulated on a circadian rhythm, too. I have read various reasons for taking clones in the morning, some involving moisture levels and heat and others saying that auxins are higher in the morning.

    Separate issue from harvesting after nighttime stash of starches have degraded.

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  • floral
    replied
    Originally posted by bigshrimp View Post
    If starch levels are lowest as lights turn on, why is it recommended that we take cuts in the morning?
    I thought that was about auxin levels, not starch levels.

    Leave a comment:

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