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    Thank you to all of those posting the papers, links and citations!
    great reading material!
    "I have only read fragments of your posts. But I have read enough to know that you can grow some mean herb."
    --- CVH
    _____________________________
    "we growing.
    till the fucking zombies show."
    --- Useless.Gardens

    My current thread

    Comment


      Originally posted by indagroove View Post
      Defoliation is standard practice in the cotton industry, as there are studies which show conclusively that higher quality cotton flowers are a direct result of defoliation.
      this is chemically done solely at harvest primarily to get the cotton plant to drop leaves for easier mechanical harvesting with less trash. it also stops further growth and triggers uniform boll opening. it is not done to increase yield.

      Comment


        I've participated in multiple threads about "defoliation". always the same results with nothing ever resolved to the satisfaction of the "real scientists" who demand cut and dried research papers, side by sides, and other formal scientific comparisons absolutely proving or disproving a technique they have never even tried.

        these "i'm a real scientist and you are a bro-scientist" type want someone else to prove or disprove it for them. they have also forgotten that early man only had empirical results and that collective empirical data is just as valid as peer-reviewed research.

        then we have hobby growers in small spaces growing small but beautiful plants showing their work claiming they got better results one way or the other. (imagine variables ramifying).

        i think the first problem we have is the definition. what is defoliation? various dictionaries say it's a verb meaning "to remove leaves from a plant for commercial purposes, especially prematurely".

        ok, i'll buy that.

        there are thousands of variations depending on which plant, what it's being grown for, environmental conditions, and let's not forget lighting.

        we have people here comparing cannabis to all kinds of plants. i think i remember sunflowers, tomatoes, and potatoes, and maybe some other plants that have absolutely nothing to do with this discussion.

        but if we confine the discussion to cannabis i think we can make some progress.

        and then further confine the discussion to indoors, which is where most people do commercial defoliation.

        outdoors you thin the centers outward but are basically removing leaves that are already occluded. i don't think thinning plant centers applies so much indoors where fewer and fewer folks are growing large trees.

        now, especially with leds, we have more and more flat canopies being presented to flat light arrays.

        within the cannabis growing world, we have a huge range of genetics with a huge variance in morphology.

        the pro grower should know which plants need more attention because of type and which ones don't.

        i have grown 10' diameter plants indoors tree style and sea of green.

        everything in between and all had different pruning requirements.

        i just said pruning. and that is what it really is with cannabis.

        i have experimented extensively with pruning and i can say that if you don't have a clear-cut reason to do it to a plant don't do it. you will probably hurt yield.

        valid reasons to prune;

        1. the plant stretches like a mofo and we all know this is not good under lights.

        starting in early veg with a plant like this i will top it at about the seventh or eighth node one time. just the bare minimum tip.

        letting it resume noticeable growth (usually a couple of days) and then begin removing the major fans on the main stem one or two at a time during veg but only as they become shaded. from the bottom up.

        this puts the brakes on stem elongation above the node the fan was connected to. (see red/far red ratio and elongation response).

        other than that i don't touch them until a week before flower. at that point, i rather radically remove all growth that will not see light.

        then pretty much leave them alone.

        2. the plant is a short, fat indica leaning plant with an extremely busy interior.

        if you don't remove material strategically you will get a ball of larf with a thin veneer of decent flower but not much weight.

        here i will not do much during early veg because these types usually are slower growing and removing much material slows them even more.

        about a week from flower i will take most growth off the plant starting from the bottom up again. stripping not only the fans but also the shoots that are close to the main stem.

        i leave just the tips of the main branches allowing maybe 4-5 inches of growth to remain.

        3. most indoor plants fit into this category.

        commercial growers recognize that, for maximum annual yield, they should choose from sativa/indica hybrid types that have similar growing characteristics, finishing times, etc.

        these mostly require topping early veg again around the seventh or eighth node and then progressive fan removal on the main stem starting at the bottom.


        you should do all this type of work to the plant at least a week before flowering giving the plant time to regrow and regain vigor from whatever you do to it.

        don't touch them during stretch but then as you flower just a slow, steady, a few at a time. daily, removal of individual leaves blocking light to bud sights.

        the last week of flower i go after major fans everywhere on the plant.

        this allows more direct light to hit the flowers. they do plump while they finish.


        in this discussion, no one has mentioned roots. what roots? the ones below the plant you are butchering up.

        roots and shoots bootstrap each other. hormonal crosstalk.

        so when you remove material from the aerial portions of the plant it responds by rapidly replacing the lost material to match root capability. taking off too much slows recovery speed.

        but the right amount at the right time will produce more flower weight because the energy from the roots has nowhere else to go.

        by judicious pruning you can steer the plant into growing more flower and less stem and leaf.


        now we get to the discussion about ramification. we have talked about the plant reactions to a major fan leaf being removed. the fan leaf adaxial surface contains random cells that sense light quality in the 660-740 nm range. as these cells become occluded they send signals to the node it's attached to which then causes elongation of the stem section above it.

        so removing that one leaf stops that one node from stretching that one stem section.

        then what does it do? it grows another shoot site at a tighter interval than you would have gotten had you not removed that leaf.

        shoot count increases flower count.

        this effect is further enhanced by light but that's a different discussion.

        this type of training should be done in veg before flowering giving the aerial portions time to regain vigor or you can end up with the same total weight of flower only all smaller. done right it will increase flower weight because of the roots.

        i can hear the responses to this already. where is your research data? where is the proof? where are the references?

        well, i don't have any.

        but what i do have is 25 years of continuous cannabis growing not just for myself but for other folks as well. oh, and i get paid really well for it, too! i wonder why people are willing to pay me to teach them how to grow? i'm either a great con artist like donald trump or i just might have a proven history of high-yielding production.

        i could spend a few hours looking up the references for you but i'm busy and don't really need to prove myself to anyone so i openly challenge anyone to refute the information i've put forth.

        while you are wasting your time i will put up a few pics to demonstrate the effect of pruning done right.

        have a nice day!








        Attached Files
        Last edited by delta9nxs; 11-25-2021, 12:59. Reason: add pics

        Comment


          Originally posted by delta9nxs View Post
          they have also forgotten that early man only had empirical results and that collective empirical data is just as valid as peer-reviewed research.




          That's called science.. The problem is this social trend amongst pot users/growers to only accept things that are official, and officiated by officials.

          These people will suck dick for 6 hours every January 1st if the president institute a position that demands it,and Hallmark prints a National Dick Sucking Day card. For fucks sake.

          Comment


            Originally posted by delta9nxs View Post
            I've participated in multiple threads about "defoliation". always the same results with nothing ever resolved to the satisfaction of the "real scientists" who demand cut and dried research papers, side by sides, and other formal scientific comparisons absolutely proving or disproving a technique they have never even tried.

            these "i'm a real scientist and you are a bro-scientist" type want someone else to prove or disprove it for them. they have also forgotten that early man only had empirical results and that collective empirical data is just as valid as peer-reviewed research.

            then we have hobby growers in small spaces growing small but beautiful plants showing their work claiming they got better results one way or the other. (imagine variables ramifying).

            i think the first problem we have is the definition. what is defoliation? various dictionaries say it's a verb meaning "to remove leaves from a plant for commercial purposes, especially prematurely".

            ok, i'll buy that.

            there are thousands of variations depending on which plant, what it's being grown for, environmental conditions, and let's not forget lighting.

            we have people here comparing cannabis to all kinds of plants. i think i remember sunflowers, tomatoes, and potatoes, and maybe some other plants that have absolutely nothing to do with this discussion.

            but if we confine the discussion to cannabis i think we can make some progress.

            and then further confine the discussion to indoors, which is where most people do commercial defoliation.

            outdoors you thin the centers outward but are basically removing leaves that are already occluded. i don't think thinning plant centers applies so much indoors where fewer and fewer folks are growing large trees.

            now, especially with leds, we have more and more flat canopies being presented to flat light arrays.

            within the cannabis growing world, we have a huge range of genetics with a huge variance in morphology.

            the pro grower should know which plants need more attention because of type and which ones don't.

            i have grown 10' diameter plants indoors tree style and sea of green.

            everything in between and all had different pruning requirements.

            i just said pruning. and that is what it really is with cannabis.

            i have experimented extensively with pruning and i can say that if you don't have a clear-cut reason to do it to a plant don't do it. you will probably hurt yield.

            valid reasons to prune;

            1. the plant stretches like a mofo and we all know this is not good under lights.

            starting in early veg with a plant like this i will top it at about the seventh or eighth node one time. just the bare minimum tip.

            letting it resume noticeable growth (usually a couple of days) and then begin removing the major fans on the main stem one or two at a time during veg but only as they become shaded. from the bottom up.

            this puts the brakes on stem elongation above the node the fan was connected to. (see red/far red ratio and elongation response).

            other than that i don't touch them until a week before flower. at that point, i rather radically remove all growth that will not see light.

            then pretty much leave them alone.

            2. the plant is a short, fat indica leaning plant with an extremely busy interior.

            if you don't remove material strategically you will get a ball of larf with a thin veneer of decent flower but not much weight.

            here i will not do much during early veg because these types usually are slower growing and removing much material slows them even more.

            about a week from flower i will take most growth off the plant starting from the bottom up again. stripping not only the fans but also the shoots that are close to the main stem.

            i leave just the tips of the main branches allowing maybe 4-5 inches of growth to remain.

            3. most indoor plants fit into this category.

            commercial growers recognize that, for maximum annual yield, they should choose from sativa/indica hybrid types that have similar growing characteristics, finishing times, etc.

            these mostly require topping early veg again around the seventh or eighth node and then progressive fan removal on the main stem starting at the bottom.


            you should do all this type of work to the plant at least a week before flowering giving the plant time to regrow and regain vigor from whatever you do to it.

            don't touch them during stretch but then as you flower just a slow, steady, a few at a time. daily, removal of individual leaves blocking light to bud sights.

            the last week of flower i go after major fans everywhere on the plant.

            this allows more direct light to hit the flowers. they do plump while they finish.


            in this discussion, no one has mentioned roots. what roots? the ones below the plant you are butchering up.

            roots and shoots bootstrap each other. hormonal crosstalk.

            so when you remove material from the aerial portions of the plant it responds by rapidly replacing the lost material to match root capability. taking off too much slows recovery speed.

            but the right amount at the right time will produce more flower weight because the energy from the roots has nowhere else to go.

            by judicious pruning you can steer the plant into growing more flower and less stem and leaf.


            now we get to the discussion about ramification. we have talked about the plant reactions to a major fan leaf being removed. the fan leaf adaxial surface contains random cells that sense light quality in the 660-740 nm range. as these cells become occluded they send signals to the node it's attached to which then causes elongation of the stem section above it.

            so removing that one leaf stops that one node from stretching that one stem section.

            then what does it do? it grows another shoot site at a tighter interval than you would have gotten had you not removed that leaf.

            shoot count increases flower count.

            this effect is further enhanced by light but that's a different discussion.

            this type of training should be done in veg before flowering giving the aerial portions time to regain vigor or you can end up with the same total weight of flower only all smaller. done right it will increase flower weight because of the roots.

            i can hear the responses to this already. where is your research data? where is the proof? where are the references?

            well, i don't have any.

            but what i do have is 25 years of continuous cannabis growing not just for myself but for other folks as well. oh, and i get paid really well for it, too! i wonder why people are willing to pay me to teach them how to grow? i'm either a great con artist like donald trump or i just might have a proven history of high-yielding production.

            i could spend a few hours looking up the references for you but i'm busy and don't really need to prove myself to anyone so i openly challenge anyone to refute the information i've put forth.

            while you are wasting your time i will put up a few pics to demonstrate the effect of pruning done right.

            have a nice day!







            A couple of points.

            I really don't get the anti-science that some of post. You say "they have also forgotten that early man only had empirical results and that collective empirical data is just as valid as peer-reviewed research". Early man used to do all sorts of practices to effect their world that were based in superstition. I don't think sacrificing to a sun god, for example, will make your cannabis grow better, and I doubt you do either. When I was first starting to grow there were all sorts of things I learned from hippie growers. One was to pull the plant out at harvest and put roots straight into boiling water so that the resin would flow to buds. People swore that worked.
            That's not to say early man knew nothing, they certainly did. But some practices obviously made no sense. They were also no doubt acutely aware of their natural world, and no doubt learned a lot through trial and error. The problem with that approach is that it doesn't account for variables, and flukes. If I decide to make a sacrifice to the rain god, and it rains, I might conclude that works. Maybe I do this a few times and get the same result? However to a modern person that makes little sense. Proper science on the other hand would takes account of variables and flukes . It requires a control, and for experiments to repeated, so that over time it can be concluded that various things work, or don't.

            I do prune plants btw, the odd lower branches, but I do not remove leaves until they are almost dead. I see you mention leaf occlusion. I just want to make the point that leaves that do not get direct light still get diffused light, and this adds to the overall plant energy (solar panel analogy). There seems to be a misconception that if you don't get direct light, then it is worthless. Leaves and buds still grow without direct light, just maybe not quite as well.

            As I said to other growers, just because you have great defoliated plants, does not mean they wouldn't be better if you had left the leaves on. Taking leaves off makes the buds more visible and they still grow, so people assume that it works? Unless you do an experiment you simply don't know. Nice plants you certainly have.

            I can't refute your information, but neither can you show that it works. All you can show is that you grow good plants. You can't show that you grow better plants compared to identical clones that were not defoliated.

            Comment


              Click image for larger version  Name:	image_2090490.jpg Views:	3 Size:	130.1 KB ID:	18000216Click image for larger version  Name:	image_2090492.jpg Views:	3 Size:	128.7 KB ID:	18000217Click image for larger version  Name:	image_2090493.jpg Views:	3 Size:	125.0 KB ID:	18000218Click image for larger version  Name:	image_2090494.jpg Views:	3 Size:	126.0 KB ID:	18000219 bushels of leaves were pulled from these plants. lots of lower limbs were removed. averaged 3 per light. some like the wreckage (pointy flowers) yielded 3.5. had an iranian c-99 cross that hit 3.9 lbs of dense flower.

              these were in oregon 3 yrs ago. my last effort using hps. please notice that there is only one stem under each canopy.

              i guess i fucked up! i wonder how much more i could have gotten if i hadn't removed any leaves?


              Comment

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