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That skunky smell? Blame ‘321 MBT’ and not Terpenes

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    The cannabis scene has become unbearable since a lab paper and some pseudo science became part of getting high. From outside the cannabis marketing bullseye, terpene is a new buzz word that does not fit when talking cannabis flavors.. Imagine if wine tasters focused on one single note; the one you can't actually smell and wouldn't want to taste in any quantity, but a lab tells you it's there, and in abundant quantities, somehow translating into quality.

    With that said, if you've ever smoked even remotely halfway decent weed in your life, you know it's sugar-acids that everyone wants. You can taste them. Terpenes taste like nutmeg.. All soapy smell,zero pleasant taste. Zero entourage affect from terpenes. Aromatherapy is not getting you higher. Sugar acids are.. A strain with only terpenes would taste horrible. Just like the terpene infused concentrates you buy at stores do. Strains with only sugar-acids taste amazing.

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  • Ralph W. Llama
    replied
    Epoxy has thiols and phenols too and I recently had a Seedsman JH with a strong epoxy smell. JH has skunk in the mix, so this is a possible connection.

    As for effects being modulated by terpenes, thiols, phenols, flavinoids and other compounds, it seems highly likely and an area where more research is needed. Where does the magic of certain strains come from?

    The current quantifiers are thc/cbd/cbc/thcv/cbg/cbn and terpenes, but it seems like we’re missing important information. Has anyone ever mixed up the components of a Haze based on cannabinoids and terps and recreated the effects? (Also, whatever happened to thcp? Shouldn’t that be looked/tested for? Could this be the reason lower thc strains can sometimes pack a strong punch?)

    Do we have any information on the health impacts of the terps, thiols, phenols etc? I love chasing flavors and effects, but want to be clear about what they are too. I don’t smoke, but have noticed some tinctures are more or less irritating.




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  • CannaRed
    replied
    Originally posted by troutman View Post

    Who on Hash Church is a real plant breeder?
    Todd?
    😂

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  • troutman
    replied
    Originally posted by Chunkypigs View Post
    I'm going to tune into Hash Church today and see who's started selling tiny $100 bottles of Thiols and patenting strains that contain them...
    Who on Hash Church is a real plant breeder?

    Leave a comment:


  • Cvh
    replied
    Sam_Skunkman, I'm sorry to trouble you. But I have a question I hope you might can help me with. I hope that's ok for you?

    On the subject of Thiol levels in Cannabis and potential modulating effect on the high effect similar to Terpenes or in combination.

    I personally wonder if that might exists. That Thiols in Cannabis could have a modulating effect on the high just like Terpenes has?

    More specific that Thiols could maybe cause the typical 'stoned' effect? And that the 'stoned' effect is maybe not so much caused by some terpenes like Myrcene? But more because of Thiols? Or is it perhaps a combination of both?
    And if potentially so, that perhaps the difference between Sativa strains and Indica strains effects are more due to Thiol levels instead of Myrcene?

    Have you ever done perhaps some tests or experiments on that matter? Measurement of Thiol levels in Indica Vs Sativa strains? Smoke tests with pure THC and Thiols? Synergetic effect between Thiols and Terpenes in the effect of the experience?

    Thanks in advance for any feedback.

    Cheers

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  • Cvh
    replied
    https://sites.google.com/a/humboldt....on-skunk-spray

    Chemical Constituents of Skunk Spray and Scientific Publications on Skunk Spray

    A mini review of the major and minor components of skunk spray from three species of skunks is followed by online links to published research papers. For a review article on The History of Skunk Spray Research go to the reference section below for a link to the published article.


    Chemistry of Skunk Spray

    Chemical Constituents of Skunk Spray

    Striped Skunk (Mephitis mephitis)
    Skunk defensive secretion is composed of seven major volatile components. These can be divided into two major groups of compounds, thiols and acetate derivatives of these thiols. Two of the thiols are responsible for the strongly repellent odor of the secretion, (E )-2-butene-1-thiol and 3-methyl-1-butanethiol. Thethird thiol, 2-quinoline-methanethiol, is not as odoriferous due to its low volatility and the fact that large thiols do not trigger the human olfactory receptor. The chemical structure of these compounds and their percent (four individuals) in the defensive secretion are shown in the following illustration.



    A second major class of compound in skunk spray are thioacetate derivatives of the three thiols. These compounds are not as odoriferous as the thiols, but are easily converted to the more potent thiols on water hydrolysis. This chemical conversion may be why pets who have previously been sprayed by skunks will again have a faint "skunky" odor on damp evenings. Thioacetate derivatives of (E )-2-butene-1-thiol and 3-methyl-1-butanethiol trapped in the animal's hair could be releasing the smelly thiols under the damp conditions. The chemical structure of these thioacetates and their percent in the defensive secretion are shown in the following illustration.



    A third type of compound is found in this secretion, it is the alkaloid 2-methylquinoline. This compound is clearly related to 2quinolinemethanethiol and S-2-quinolinemethyl thioacetate. Perhaps 2-methylquinoline is a product in the biosynthesis of these two compounds. The structure and percent of 2-methylquinoline in skunk secretion follows.



    References: "New Components in Defensive Secretion of the Striped Skunk, Mephitis mephitis." William F. Wood, J. Chemical Ecology 16, 2057-2065 (1990). "Some chemical constituents of the scent of the striped skunk (Mephitis mephitis)." Andersen, K. K.,and Bernstein, D. T. J. Chemical Ecology 1, 493-499 (1975).

    Spotted Skunk (Spilogale gracilis) The defensive secretion of the spotted skunk differs from that of the striped skunk in that it only contains thiols and the thioacetates are not present. The two major thiols of the striped skunk, (E )-2-butene-1-thiol and 3-methyl-1-butanethiol are also the major components in the secretion of the spotted skunk. A third thiol, 2-phenylethanethiol, was present at moderate concentration in this smaller skunk. The chemical structure of these compounds and their percent (two individuals) in the defensive secretion are shown in the following illustration.





    A number of minor components (less than 1%) were also identifiedfrom the spotted skunk. The chemical structure of these compounds and their percent (two individuals) in the defensive secretion are shown in the following illustration.







    Reference: "Volatile Components In Defensive Spray of the Spotted Skunk, Spilogale putorius," William F. Wood, Christopher G. Morgan and Alison Miller, J. Chemical Ecology 17, 1415-1420 (1991).





    Hog-nosed Skunk (Conepatus mesoleucus*)

    *Recent research indicates the two species of hog-nosed skunks,Conepatus mesoleucas and C. leuconotus may be the same species.Thus, according to the rules of zoological nomenclature, the one that was described first has priority. If they are the same species, the name C. leuconotus will be used. (Pers. Communication Dr.Jerry Dragoo, University of New Mexico, jdragoo@unm.edu)

    The defensive secretion of the hog-nosed skunk differs from that ofthe spotted skunk and the striped skunk. Like the striped skunk, it does contain thioacetate derivatives of the thiols in the secretion. Also, a major component, 3-methyl-1-butanethiol, of the striped and spotted skunks' secretion is missing from the secretion of this species. The major components from this skunk's secretion are (E )-2-butene-1-thiol and S-(E )-2-butenyl thioacetate. The chemical structure of these compounds and their percent (one individuals) in the defensive secretion are shown in the following illustration.



    The minor components in this secretion are phenylmethanethiol, 2-methylquinoline, 2-quinolinemethanethiol and bis[(E )-2-butenyl]disulfide. The chemical structure of these compounds and their percent (one individual) in the defensive secretion are shown in the following illustration.


    Reference: "Volatile Components in Defensive Spray of the Hog-nosed Skunk, Conepatus mesoleucus" William F. Wood, Christoph O. Fisher and Gary A. Graham, J. Chemical Ecology 19, 837-841 (1993).









    Neutralize skunk odor
    Deodorizing Skunk Spray
    To get rid of the odor of skunk spray, it is necessary to change thethiols into compounds that have little or no odor. This can easily bedone by oxidizing the thiols to sulfonic acids. Many oxidizing agents can effect this change. Hydrogen peroxide and baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) are mild enough to be used on pets althoughit may change their hair color. For inanimate objects sodiumhypochlorite solutions (liquid laundry bleach) are cheap and effective. The chemical reaction for this transformation follows. (Recipes for deodorizing skunk spray follow.)





    For pets that have been sprayed, bathe the animal in a mixture of:

    1 quart of 3% hydrogen peroxide (from drug store)
    1/4 cup of baking soda (sodium bicarbonate)
    and a teaspoon of liquid detergent.

    After 5 minutes rinse the animal with water. Repeat if necessary.The mixture must be used after mixing and will not work if it isstored for any length of time. DO NOT STORE IN A CLOSED CONTAINER -it releases oxygen gas so it could break the container. This mixture may bleach the pet's hair. I have heard of one black Labrador retriever that was chocolate colored after this treatment. (Paul Krebaum's Recipe from Chemical & E ngineering News , October 18, 1993, p. 90).Some additional tips. Do this outside so the volatile skunk spraydoes not contaminate your house. To remove residual skunk odorfrom your clothes and any towels or rags used in this clean upprocedure, wash them with one cup of liquid laundry bleach pergallon of water.

    For buildings, decks, etc., a solution of liquid laundry(Chlorox®) bleach (1 cup per gallon) will work. CAUTION THIS MAY BLEACH THE BUILDINGS, DECKS, ETC. Try iton a small area if bleaching may be a problem. The bleach mustcome in contact with the spot where the secretion was sprayedRepeated applications may be necessary for large amounts of theskunk spray. DO NOT USE THIS ON PETS. It will not work forskunk spray that has drifted over a large area or is trapped in a house. Only time and adequate ventilation will help in this case.



    Why tomato juice is believed to eliminate
    skunk odor. Bathing an animal in tomato juice seems towork because at high doses of skunk spray the human nose quitssmelling the odor (olfactory fatigue). When this happens, the odorof tomato juice can easily be detected. A person suffering olfactory fatigue to skunk spray will swear that the skunk odor is gone and was neutralized by the tomato juice. Another person coming on the scene at this point will readily confirm that the skunk spray has not been neutralized by the tomato juice. Skunk lifting tail as a warning before spraying.Photograph by William Wood William F. Wood, Department of Chemistry Humboldt State University, Arcata, CA 95521 E-Mail wfw2@humboldt.edu

    Online copies of research publications for the chemistry of skunk spray from different skunk species are listed below. (Put link below publication in your web browser to get the publication if it does not load on selection.)

    History of Skunk Spray Research. “The History of Skunk Defensive Secretion Research,” William F. Wood, The Chemical Educator, 4, 44-50 (1999). (DOI 10.1007/s00897990286a1999.) https://www.researchgate.net/publica...etion_Research

    Original Publications on Different Skunk Species. "New Components in Defensive Secretion of the Striped Skunk, Mephitis mephitis." William F. Wood, .J. Chemical Ecology 16, 2057-2065 (1990).https://www.researchgate.net/publica...hitis_mephitis "Volatile Components In Defensive Spray of the Spotted Skunk, Spilogale putorius," William F. Wood, Christopher G. Morgan and Alison Miller, J. Chemical Ecology 17, 1415-1420 (1991) https://www.researchgate.net/publica...ogale_putorius "Volatile Components in Defensive Spray of the Hog-nosed Skunk, Conepatus mesoleucus" William F. Wood, Christoph O. Fisher and Gary A. Graham, J. Chemical Ecology 19, 837-841 (1993).https://www.researchgate.net/publica...tus_mesoleucus “Volatile components in defensive spray of the hooded skunk, Mephitis macroura.” William F. Wood, Brian G. Sollers, Gwen A. Dragoo and Jerry W. Dragoo, Journal of Chemical Ecology, 28, 1853-1858 (2002) https://www.researchgate.net/publica...hitis_macroura These publication are available online at: https://www.researchgate.net/profile/William_Wood6

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  • Chunkypigs
    replied
    I'm going to tune into Hash Church today and see who's started selling tiny $100 bottles of Thiols and patenting strains that contain them...

    Leave a comment:


  • Cvh
    replied
    Sam_Skunkman , Hi Sam, I hope all is well for you?

    A quick question for you if I may. What's your opinion about Thiols/Mercaptans being the main cause of the skunky, road kill like smell in Cannabis? Or do you rather think it's all due to Terpenes/Terpenoids or a mixture of both or...?

    Thanks in advance.
    Cheers.

    Mixture of both is my guess.
    -SamS
    Last edited by Sam_Skunkman; 04-20-2021, 15:42.

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  • troutman
    replied
    Genetics (G) + Environment (E) = Phenotype (P)

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3108095/

    With grapes, the terroir (soil component) is already well understood to be one main reason why wines from different
    regions taste a little different even with the same grape plants. I'm sure it's the same with any other plant under the sun.

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  • Drewsif
    replied
    Originally posted by Maple_Flail View Post

    from a brief glance with merely observational eyes, I would suspect there is an interaction that would be atleast tricky to replicate indoors consistently.

    seems to be a yeast/bacteria interaction with the sulfur in soil causing a break down product that once the plant ingests feeds the pathway to these thiols.
    Cannabis has multiple possible gene markers for a fatty acid which naturally produces the skunk thiols as it breaks down. Soil microbes can not only genetically modify the plant through horizontal gene transfer but can also produce the specific fatty acid as a nutrient-containing metabolite which the plant will absorb and utilize.

    Every plant I grow indoor is skunky because of the soil. But my skunk with 9 markers for the skunk thiol group FA derivative, there's a synergistic effect. The type of synergism that haults evolution once it reaches perfection.

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  • Drewsif
    replied
    Originally posted by Hashmasta-Kut View Post
    But you aren't talking about herb that produces thiols. Most weed smell is from terpenes, and hardly any weed produces mercaptans that break down to thiol compounds. Your evidence is unrelated to skunk. Skunk smell does not come from the presence, or ample amount of sulfur.
    You're simply wrong. You fell for the fruit scrap terpene conspiracy. Every skunk smell in the galaxy contains sulfur. Terpenes have practically nothing to do with Cannabis. A bunch of lame wannabe growers who believe every commercial on late night television spread this myth, that was started by ecig companies in a conspiracy to sell a bunch of bullshit..

    The green rushin' canna labs love testing to see if your Skunk x Garlic Bud has half a percent of linalool you can't smell in it lol. Much easier to test for pointless terpenes you can't smell than obvious thiols that literally define the strain.

    This tiny chart shows more weed smell/entourage molecules than a full panel at Steep Hills
    https://jameskennedymonash.files.wor.. .smells-w12.pdf

    Same growtards who spread the terpene myth also believe the "D9thc = potency" and "frost equals potency" myths created by the government. Wannabe breeders who have never smoked decent herb think that terpenes are cool,the majority whom have never cured a bud or tasted hash. Boveda breeders... Real bud gets louder as it breaks down, and more flavorful. Just like a dead body, smelly armpit, sweaty feet, rotten fruit... Real weed smells. . Real weed doesn't need moisty packs and an imagination to pretend it's dank. Real weed comes with built-in dumpster chunks of grease and funk; not delicate terpenes. Terpene weed is limp wristed, aka gay. "Close the jar I might lose my single terpene! Oh dear! "

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  • troutman
    replied
    Originally posted by Hashmasta-Kut View Post
    Obviously you never grew skunk indoors like my family did indoors for over 20 years.

    Believe what you want, I know what's up. Tired of trying to educate you now
    So you leaving this thread now Mr. Knowitall?

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  • Hashmasta-Kut
    replied
    Obviously you never grew skunk indoors like my family did indoors for over 20 years.

    Believe what you want, I know what's up. Tired of trying to educate you now

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  • troutman
    replied
    Thiols produced in soil and Terpenes can react together to create even a stinkier chemicals that smell like Skunk.
    In fact the US Government created such a compound to track Mexican weed shipments after they were sprayed
    with Paraquat. The compound they used is called d-Limonene Dimercaptan (dLDM).

    The chemical, known as d-Limonene Dimercaptan (dLDM). is made from orange peels, but is variously
    described by government officials as smelling like "essence of skunk," "burning tar" and "poo-poo."
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/archi...=.4ff7e9200150

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  • troutman
    replied
    Originally posted by Cvh View Post
    troutman
    ​​​​​​​Ok, but that's not really answering my questions why you say that indoor gardens aren't capable of producing much thiols?
    Thiols are produced under anerobic conditions after hydrogen sulfide is produced by the reduction of sulfates and iron is present.
    This would be like under water like in swamp mud or deep soils with no oxygen. Unless you want to create a stinky swamp type
    aroma indoors which I'm sure your family won't be very impressed with don't go there. It's why I say it's easier and less trouble
    to do it outside.

    https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF01809852

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