jroadytoady
Active member
Same here - if for no other reason than my worms are hungry little helpers. I don't intentionally put 'em in, they just come from the homemade EWC. Usually have several dozen adults in the mulch by end of flowering.
Any way to increase bud density growing in organic soil indoors?
- Thread starter yaz828
- Start date
Same here - if for no other reason than my worms are hungry little helpers. I don't intentionally put 'em in, they just come from the homemade EWC. Usually have several dozen adults in the mulch by end of flowering.
i agree with the comments about light ... when i changed from one vertical 250w HPS to two stacked vertical 250w HPS. all of a sudden the buds were dense. cab is 2' x 2' x 4' tall. 2.25gal recycled organic soil with Good Earth Organics ferts. this is true across jamaican, c99, white widow, ak47 strains. getting 5 oz per pot. i water 2 times per week @ 1.5 liter per pot. 1 Tbsp. flower+brix fert per pot once per week.
i top dress about 6oz of worm castings when going from veg to flower.
One more vote for lighting. I started growing with CFLs, and would always get very fluffy buds. When i changed to LED, I changed nothing else in the environment and started getting rock hard buds.
Of course, genetics would be the caveat or second factor to that. You're never growing rocks of granite from an untamed narrow leaf landrace. Definitely takes a modern line with lots of proper selecting throughout, usually a solid hybrid, though some purer indicas occasionally throw out thicker buds.
Of course, genetics would be the caveat or second factor to that. You're never growing rocks of granite from an untamed narrow leaf landrace. Definitely takes a modern line with lots of proper selecting throughout, usually a solid hybrid, though some purer indicas occasionally throw out thicker buds.
mme_oscar
Active member
I'd say I'd rather grow under led. I think it's denser under led because of the spectrum (at equivalent ppfd).
Lowering temp with hid is less certain but helps.
Regarding the salty nutrients, my point was not all organics are the same. Comparing órgano mineral with soil you prepared earlier on (with bonemeal and this kind of stuff) isn't fair comparison. Do I make sense?
Btw someone mention Si, which I supplement too. I think that's the last mineral I use except for my mums.
Asentrouw
Well-known member
In the end it comes down to watts/lumen; the stronger the lights, the bigger and denser your buds will be.
Temps may also play a small part, lower temps seem to create denser buts.
And good and developed roots, which is mostly a matter of good soil and proper watering.
I think there is little more to it then those factors.
If you want to try it with ferts, there are probably also organic substitutes for high PK salts (for instance BAC bloom, etc. which is based on melasses). This seems to make the plant canabalize itself faster and seems to puff up the buds a bit, although this is bro-science from my part (= only from personal observations with PK, as I don't know the exact science behind it).
But the effects are limited; any balanced feeding will probably give good results. Most of the time less is more and most "miracle" ferts don't offer what they promise. These days I just re-use the old soil, amment it with blood- and bonemeal, vinessecali, lavameal and epsom salts. Cheap as can get and works like a charm.
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thx for sending the pics, those are sturdy girls. what's in your foliar spray, synthetic form of silica? know of any natural forms that are water soluble?
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growsjoe appreciate the guidance my friend. I assumed the amount of water used didn't matter if it's about making sure the entire medium is thoroughly soaked (as long as it drains properly and waterings are done less frequently), especially for a heavy drinker like bubba. Read that in a pre98 bubba grow journal, which contradicts what you're saying about operating in the 3-7 zone with 7 being the highest for soil moisture. Is that a strain dependant thing, or something you've found works for indica heavy/kush plants as well? maybe @jroadytoady can chime in.
0.4 litres (10% of 1 gallon pot) doesn't seem like it thoroughly wets the entire medium.
That seems like a good general rule of thumb there for large/small plant in small/large pot.
I'll def check out clackamascoot.
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Can't read thru everything, but do you want fatter buds or more dense buds? Verdant's Bubba (Katsu's too) had small buds in my experience but they were 'kind of' dense. And those giant leaves that block so much light.
For more bud mass I would try longer veg time plus a lot of defoliation and repeated topping to get as many shoots as possible into the space for more bud sites and of course check the roots after a while. They will need bigger pots as usual as reaction to the training and extra time. But for denser buds alone I would try switching to colder light color, i.e. metal halide etc.
For more bud mass I would try longer veg time plus a lot of defoliation and repeated topping to get as many shoots as possible into the space for more bud sites and of course check the roots after a while. They will need bigger pots as usual as reaction to the training and extra time. But for denser buds alone I would try switching to colder light color, i.e. metal halide etc.
actually, I need to get this info from my grower along with lighting setup so we can adjust accordingly...so i'll get back to you. Any particular options in soil mix/lighting you've found work well for indica heavy/kush strains such as bubba? (for increased yield, faster veg, overall dial in)
LED seems to be common theme, I believe its more cost effective as well. I used to use cob leds on heatsinks when I grew for myself (veg set and flower set with certain kelvin I can't recall atm).
sorry I don't understand what you mean with re to salty nutrients. Able to expand on that?
stronger the lights = bigger/denser buds that's to an extent assuming your setup is not overkill correct? (based on #plants, distance from light, size of grow space etc)
noted on temps, soil, watering. Natural NPK substitutes and ratios for adding in veg and flower I will look into more, thanks for reminder.
good question i'd say both if possible, not sure if one over the other for personal/medical use purposes. Generally just trying to improve on yield. Longer veg forsure can't avoid that but hoping there are some ways to at least speed it up some. LST, defoliation, and plenty of root space I think will be a must as well.
MH for flower? didn't know that was being done will have to look into it, thanks.
Asentrouw
Well-known member
Ofcourse it needs to be dialed in with the rest of the equipment, space and number of plants. But I think light is the most important factor.
Under 100 watts you can grow very nice solid bud if the genetics are right, but you are not going to grow rockhard donkeydicks as you can under 400 watts, with much more lumen and better light penetration in the same space.
It's also hard to match the light penetration of LED/HPS with CFL. So that will affect the overall density of buds.
In that regard some supercropping, etc. ("snapping" stems) or LST during veg also helps for much better light penetration.
In the end if you create the best enviroment for your plants, you get superior results. No "wonder fert" is going to do that; I personally think plain old ROLS with some compost and the basic ammentments, a good living soil, works just as good as new soil filled with salts and PK boosters. That's more something of personal preference. I just like ROLS because it's really cheap and simple and see little difference in results as with salts.
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jroadytoady
Active member
@yaz828 Can you please share as many details of your grow with us?
What's your soil mix, pot type, pot size, lighting, room size, light cycle, from seed or clones, watering log, size of plants when going into flowering, veg length, etc.
PS - I use the same lighting and soil mix for damn near everything. That's the beauty of organics, treat the soil like an all you can eat buffet and the plant takes what it needs. And this means no force feeding! Building an great soil takes time... "You can't make a baby in 9 months by getting 9 women pregnant"
What's your soil mix, pot type, pot size, lighting, room size, light cycle, from seed or clones, watering log, size of plants when going into flowering, veg length, etc.
PS - I use the same lighting and soil mix for damn near everything. That's the beauty of organics, treat the soil like an all you can eat buffet and the plant takes what it needs. And this means no force feeding! Building an great soil takes time... "You can't make a baby in 9 months by getting 9 women pregnant"
TrifektaSeeds
Member
The hierarchy
Water
Air
Light
In the end, water/air is the most important thing and what's building the entire plant.
Light is a big factor but is also fixed, meaning it's not subjected to growers input during the entire cycle, you buy a light and run it.
We also take into consideration that the grower in our case has a sufficient light system to sustain those rates of photosynthesis.
So grower input of water/air cycles will do most of the work in terms of getting dense buds or just over vigor grow.
In organics like hydro performance is not possible due to the medium capabilities of water/air cycles.
Sure some growers try to get around this problem by all creative means but it won't amount to the capability of true hydro mediums can reach when dialed.
About solutions to this, mostly mixing coco/perlite as much as you can with your soil mix in order to allow more water/air cycles, other than that, a stronger light if yours is low rated, a higher value of temps and rh will help also.
Water
Air
Light
In the end, water/air is the most important thing and what's building the entire plant.
Light is a big factor but is also fixed, meaning it's not subjected to growers input during the entire cycle, you buy a light and run it.
We also take into consideration that the grower in our case has a sufficient light system to sustain those rates of photosynthesis.
So grower input of water/air cycles will do most of the work in terms of getting dense buds or just over vigor grow.
In organics like hydro performance is not possible due to the medium capabilities of water/air cycles.
Sure some growers try to get around this problem by all creative means but it won't amount to the capability of true hydro mediums can reach when dialed.
About solutions to this, mostly mixing coco/perlite as much as you can with your soil mix in order to allow more water/air cycles, other than that, a stronger light if yours is low rated, a higher value of temps and rh will help also.
SlangZaddy
New member
At risk of sounding like I don't understand the question, once you've heeded the great advice in this thread about environment etc, there is a genetic you might consider.
Having run her several times in different conditions, I can say that this fem is ALWAYS mega-dense to the point that she may betray you without flawless ventilation but she is otherwise versatile, low-maintenance & high-reward.
Her name is Glueberry OG (from Dutch Passion).
Can anyone with experience second this?
Having run her several times in different conditions, I can say that this fem is ALWAYS mega-dense to the point that she may betray you without flawless ventilation but she is otherwise versatile, low-maintenance & high-reward.
Her name is Glueberry OG (from Dutch Passion).
Can anyone with experience second this?
oldmaninbc
Well-known member
If a strain does not produce dense buds because of genetics, can that phenotype be coaxed into producing dense buds?
you should do a poll ... i vote no.
mudballs
Well-known member
From what I've seen it's mostly genetics and DLI...if i grow the same dense nug summer phenos late in the year and flower in Nov/Dec (in texas i can) i get loose crappy buds. You ever notice if you have the lights low and strong you make squat short plants in veg? But higher lights make them stretch yeah? Same deal with nug structure. Nothing can be done except maximizing DLI and ppfd
