ph????? LC mix not buffering for me

richyrich · May 21, 2008

Ok... I am growing Bubba Kush and I am using LC's mix #2.
50% ProMix BX
30% Chunky Perlite
20% EWCs
1/2 cup blood meal per cubic foot
1/2 cup of kelp meal per cubic foot
1 cup of bone meal per cubic foot
1 cup of powdered dolomite lime per cubic foot

Started from clones and they are at 5 weeks veg in 2 gallon pots and they are not root bound yet.

Here is the problem. I have big time cal and mag deficiency. I popped the pots off of a couple of plants and I have very healthy roots. I use RO water with 1/3 dose of recommended Liquid Karma every watering. Water goes in at ph 6.5 every time. I use a tri meter and then I use drops to check the accuracy of the ph every time. ph has been spot on. I finally did a ph runoff check and it was 6.3. Now I know from the soil ph chart cal and mag are not available at below 6.5 so there is my problem. I have to wait for the soil to dry out and then I am gonna ph the water to 7.0 and it should come out to around 6.8 and then the cal and mag will be available.

My question is why is my ph at 6.3 when I have the appropriate amount of dolomite lime, and yes it is powdered. I thought it was suppose to bring the ph close to 7.0. My ph went .2 lower.

And then besides all of that, why ain't the EWCs and organic soil making the nutrients available regardless. I only ask because I see all of these threads talking about how the ph don't matter in organic soils. "Let the microbes take care of everything." Well I beg to differ so far. This is my first time but I have followed the instruction true.

ixnay007 · May 22, 2008

R/O water?

That's probably the biggest problem, you'll probably need additional lime if there's 0 available in your water.

But, of course, wait for some more experienced growers to chime in also

BurnOne · May 22, 2008

richyrich-
If you used 1 cup powdered dolomite lime per cubic foot of mix, I can guarantee you that you don't have a magnesium deficiency. If you have a Mg deficiency, the leaves point upward and it looks like the plant is "Praying for Magnesium". Are you sure of what you're saying?
Worm castings and Pro Mix will contain plenty of humus so the plants can take up nutes well within that pH range. Don't worry about that.
Sounds like something else is wrong. Go over your process again and double check that you did everything right.
How long did you wet the medium with the blood/bone/kelp before you planted the clones?
Not being root bound at five weeks in a two gallon pot is not a sign of a problem. I've done complete grows in pots not much bigger than that before.
What do your plants look like that makes you think you have a problem?
Burn1

Guest · May 22, 2008

I'm going to butt in here and say something.

Runoff pH is a value I have a LOT of questions about...and I've been growing things for a good many years. Frankly, I don't put any value whatsoever on "someone elses runoff pH" because I don't know all the variables that might affect that value. I DO know how to interpret the ruinoff pH on my grow.

That said, I have the same question as Burn1.

What makes you think you have a problem? If it is your runoff pH values, quit worrying.

The pH in your grow medium is not the same throughout. There are countless zillions of tiny "microenvironments" through out the medium. The pH constantly changes throughout the medium all the time as water is taken up into the plant and evaporates. This is how micros like Iron, etc. are made available. Your soil mix is not "homogenous" in that sense. pH values will cover a wide range in the soil mix. The "AVERAGE" pH value might be 6.3 or whatever...and that's all we can actually measure. Does this make sense to you?

Nobody can actually "forget" about pH if you are a grower, organic or not. However, if you prepare your soil properly( and it looks like you have) you need not be concerned about it UNLESS...

You subsequently put "something" in your soil to screw things up.

I read all the time on ICMAG and other forums where people beging well and then their best buddy or somesuch tells them to add this, that, or the other "miracle amendment" that will improve yield or whatever. And then they proceed to screw up a good grow.

jj48

guineapig · May 22, 2008

Good points jj48.....so true about the microenvironments of soil (and "microclimates" surrounding the plant, but that is tangential).....

I have a feeling that richyrich did follow the soil preparation instructions true.....i'm sure you mixed all the ingredients quite thoroughly (eh?)......nice job testing pH with the tri-meter, too.....

The question i have is about the dolomite lime......i've always heard that dolomite lime breaks down over time and releases its Calcium and Magnesium gradually.....so, it is possible that your plants haven't had access to these secondary nutrients.....

Almost always, Ca and Mg are present in tap water and spring waters......but you are using R/O water so i am a bit concerned that your plants don't have access to enough rapidly available Calcium and Magnesium.....

I haven't seen pics yet, but i am a bit concerned......honestly, unless you are an organic soil purist, i would consider fertigating (adding a soluble liquid fertilizer when you water- I suggest Sugar Peak: Sweet & Heavy nutrients which are designed for organic hydroponics but work exceptionally well in soil)......

Also it would be a good idea to pick up a Cal/Mag supplement, but here's the thing....

We've had lots of threads here talking about how hard it is to find a Cal/Mg product which is readily bio-available to the plant......i could point you to the threads, but i'll sum up what i feel are your best options:

-Sanfaustino mineral water: this mineral water is called "the calcium water" and has 8% Calcium and 8% Magnesium with a pH of 5.9......plants love this stuff.....i swear it is as good as any miracle plant tonic i have ever seen, and i have used it directly on the soil as well as a foliar-feed (foliar-feed makes Ca and Mg immediately available, so if you are sure your plants have a Cal/Mg problem, and are still in vegetative, try a foliar-feeding method).....

-Calcium and Magnesium supplements from a health food store.....
Honestly i'm not sure which product is the best product here, but people have had good success with these......i guess you want the most "bio-available" supplement that you can find......if you have a lot of plants, this method should be cheaper than the Sanfaustino water method (but honestly, the Sanfaustino water only costs 2 dollars per liter, so it isn't prohibitively expensive unless you have lots of plants)....

People are pretty much fed up with Botanicare's Cal/Mag plus product......i've run it side-by-side Sanfaustino water and i saw absolutely no difference with Botanicare's product compared to great results with Sanfaustino water.....

Even if you cut your R/O water with 1/2 Spring water, you should get a noticeable difference in the Calcium and Magnesium uptake of your plants......some people still have good water flowing from the tap, but this is getting less and less so unfortunately.....

:ying:

kind regards from guineapig :ying:

Guest · May 22, 2008

Hey Guineapig
I snuck off from work.

He says he used "powdered dolomite". If so I'm like Burn1, I don't know why he would have Ca or Mg problems. I use prilled dolomite and all I do is screen it with a fine kitchen seive and use the finest particles of the dolomite. I've never had a problem doing it that way.

It is best to let your soilmix "incubate" a while to let things break down. However, I have used soilmix "fresh" with no problems. The plants that wenbt into the fresh mix were a month or more old though. Large plants can tolerate a fresh mix much better.

Maybe the thread owner can post some pictures and elaborate a bit more on what he has done and not done.

jj48
:sasmokin:

richyrich · May 22, 2008

jj48 said:
Hey Guineapig
I snuck off from work.

He says he used "powdered dolomite". If so I'm like Burn1, I don't know why he would have Ca or Mg problems. I use prilled dolomite and all I do is screen it with a fine kitchen seive and use the finest particles of the dolomite. I've never had a problem doing it that way.

It is best to let your soilmix "incubate" a while to let things break down. However, I have used soilmix "fresh" with no problems. The plants that wenbt into the fresh mix were a month or more old though. Large plants can tolerate a fresh mix much better.

Maybe the thread owner can post some pictures and elaborate a bit more on what he has done and not done.

jj48

I will get back soon with pics. You have answered something I was wondering about. I did let my mix incubate for only one week and not two, so I was wondering about that, but you said a fresh mix worked fine for you. And besides they have been in the mix for a while so its been incubating this whole time. And I used the higher amount of powdered dolomite lime 2tbsp and not 1 because I know bubba kush is a magnesium hog. I have to run out right now, but I will get back with pictures and elaborate more. The one other thing I still wonder about is why the lime is not raising my ph any higher???

Thanks so far for the responses.

BurnOne · May 22, 2008

richyrich said:
I will get back soon with pics. You have answered something I was wondering about. I did let my mix incubate for only one week and not two, so I was wondering about that, but you said a fresh mix worked fine for you. And besides they have been in the mix for a while so its been incubating this whole time. And I used the higher amount of powdered dolomite lime 2tbsp and not 1 because I know bubba kush is a magnesium hog. I have to run out right now, but I will get back with pictures and elaborate more. The one other thing I still wonder about is why the lime is not raising my ph any higher???

Thanks so far for the responses.

Don't worry about your pH. The humic acids in the peat and worm castings will buffer that. The dolomite lime adjusts pH within the soil mix. Adjusting for a "perfect" pH in organics just isn't necessary. That's for chemical growers.
The suggested two week incubation period is just so the bone meal can break down and become available. That's not your problem either.
Pics will help to clear all this up.
Burn1

Guest · May 22, 2008

"The one other thing I still wonder about is why the lime is not raising my ph any higher???"

It's not going to get any higher and that is a good thing. That is what the buffering action is all about.

Did you wonder where the recommendation 1cup/cubic foot of dolomite lime came from?

Nutrient and amendment recommendations, e.g. 1Tbls/gallon, 1 tsp/liter, etc. etc. are not pulled out of thin air. Regarding dolomite lime....Tests by various agricultural and horticultural experts have determined that in the "average" soilless mix, containing the "average" amount of organic material like sphagnum moss and compost....tests reveal that 1 cup/ft3 of dolomite lime will provide the necessary cations to buffer and exchange to keep the medium's pH in the 6-7 range. The medium , in effect, reaches an equilibrium of sorts with that amount of lime. How all this happens gets into a discussion of cation exchange capacity and the role of humic acid as a "holding station" of sorts for cations. I find it all very interesting.

At least that is the interpretation I got many years ago in my Master Gardener classes....and I have seen nothing over the years that refutes that interpretation...but I'm willing to listen and learn if someone has a different view.

jj48
:sasmokin:

BurnOne · May 22, 2008

richyrich · May 22, 2008

The only thing that has gone in the soil is RO water mixed with about 5ml per gallon of liquid karma and 1ml per gallon of house and garden root excelurator every watering and I adjusted the ph to 6.5 and it took very little ph up to get it there, just drops. This has been on every watering.

This is how they looked up until week 3 or so. They were fine at first. I repotted once they became root bound in that 5" square pot and then they went into 2 gallon round pots. Right before flipping them they will go into 5 gallon buckets. At week 4 is when I noticed the problem. They were still in the 5"er pot and root bound. I thought that was the problem. It has been almost two weeks since transplant and you can view the rest of the pics. My roots are fine and they are still growing rapidly despite the deficiency. I still say it is a cal and mag problem. I suspect since bubba kush is a mag hog, I think the dolomite lime may not be getting broken down quick enough and they are falling short on their needs. Anyway that is just my suspicion right now. To me that explains why they were fine when smaller but now that they are bigger their appetite is much larger. I welcome your suggestions. They should be drying out enough to water in about a day. I think I am gonna add some calmag to the RO water.

Guest · May 22, 2008

The only thing that has gone in the soil is RO water mixed with about 5ml per gallon of liquid karma and 1ml per gallon of house and garden root excelurator every watering and I adjusted the ph to 6.5 and it took very little ph up to get it there, just drops. This has been on every watering

I've not used RO water for a grow, so I may not have the best advice. That said something is bugging me. You say you had to "raise" the pH to 6.5 using some kind of pH up? This is after 5ml/gal of LK and 1ml/gal of a root excelerator? Seems like that root stuff is pretty acidic? 5ml LK doesn't bring my water down all that much. What sort of pH up are you using?

I would drop that root excelerator, if only, to eliminate it as a source of some sort of lockout or nute conflict of some sort.

And depending on if you are a purist or not, I'd try some Cal Mag, or Epsom Salts and Calcium Carbonate.

I would also drop using any pH up. You're not going to hurt anything by not using it. The pH of an applied nute solution doesn't have to be 6.5. I've poured EJ Flower on at pH of 4, maybe 3.5. Plants sucked it right up.

Pedro
:sasmokin:

richyrich · May 22, 2008

jj48 said:
The only thing that has gone in the soil is RO water mixed with about 5ml per gallon of liquid karma and 1ml per gallon of house and garden root excelurator every watering and I adjusted the ph to 6.5 and it took very little ph up to get it there, just drops. This has been on every watering

I've not used RO water for a grow, so I may not have the best advice. That said something is bugging me. You say you had to "raise" the pH to 6.5 using some kind of pH up? This is after 5ml/gal of LK and 1ml/gal of a root excelerator? Seems like that root stuff is pretty acidic? 5ml LK doesn't bring my water down all that much. What sort of pH up are you using?

I would drop that root excelerator, if only, to eliminate it as a source of some sort of lockout or nute conflict of some sort.

And depending on if you are a purist or not, I'd try some Cal Mag, or Epsom Salts and Calcium Carbonate.

I would also drop using any pH up. You're not going to hurt anything by not using it. The pH of an applied nute solution doesn't have to be 6.5. I've poured EJ Flower on at pH of 4, maybe 3.5. Plants sucked it right up.

Pedro

For some reason my RO water comes out at a ph of 6.5 instead of 7. At my old spot with the same RO unit it would come out at 7. Kind of weird but the ppms always come out at 8. So, I start off with 6.5ph water and add the liquid karma and the root excelurator. By the way the root excelurator is awesome stuff. How it makes the roots grow so fast is unbelievable. I dont buy into all the snake oils. The less the better. I learned this over time and realized that all the products are just a bunch of marketing bs. The root excel is the only product you will hear me rave about.

After adding the two products the ph drops to about 5.2. I then add just a little ph up to bring it back up to 6.5ph. You are right we can't let the ph number go. I was a hydro guy before this and then soilless hydro and now organic soil. I had two years of problems in hydro with brown algae. If you go to the infirmary section and see the sticky slime on roots I am in there posting away my problems for a long while. Organics was appealing because I dont want hassles any more. I want to keep it super simple like just watering and thats it. I adjusted the ph because I figured it would not hurt anyway. I use the typical ph up out of a bottle, potassium hydroxide. When I make a 20 gallon batch of feed water I probably add 10 ml of ph up to get it there.

I am not anal about being all pure with organics. I wanted the ease of growing. I have both botanicare calmag plus and advanced nutes sensical. I am going to add it to the next feed and bring up the ppms of the RO water to about 200 with the calmag supplement. That way it would be as if I were using a pretty good tap water. I think that is where my problem comes from. Most here use bubbled tap and benefit from the extras in it. My RO water is stripped and my plants do not have any fast acting cal and mag. The dolomite lime is too slow on the release for my mag hog strain. I will see what happens after the next feed.

richyrich · May 22, 2008

ixnay007 said:
R/O water?

That's probably the biggest problem, you'll probably need additional lime if there's 0 available in your water.

But, of course, wait for some more experienced growers to chime in also

I think you may be right. Thanks.

richyrich · May 22, 2008

guineapig said:
Good points jj48.....so true about the microenvironments of soil (and "microclimates" surrounding the plant, but that is tangential).....

I have a feeling that richyrich did follow the soil preparation instructions true.....i'm sure you mixed all the ingredients quite thoroughly (eh?)......nice job testing pH with the tri-meter, too.....

The question i have is about the dolomite lime......i've always heard that dolomite lime breaks down over time and releases its Calcium and Magnesium gradually.....so, it is possible that your plants haven't had access to these secondary nutrients.....

Almost always, Ca and Mg are present in tap water and spring waters......but you are using R/O water so i am a bit concerned that your plants don't have access to enough rapidly available Calcium and Magnesium.....

I haven't seen pics yet, but i am a bit concerned......honestly, unless you are an organic soil purist, i would consider fertigating (adding a soluble liquid fertilizer when you water- I suggest Sugar Peak: Sweet & Heavy nutrients which are designed for organic hydroponics but work exceptionally well in soil)......

Also it would be a good idea to pick up a Cal/Mag supplement, but here's the thing....

We've had lots of threads here talking about how hard it is to find a Cal/Mg product which is readily bio-available to the plant......i could point you to the threads, but i'll sum up what i feel are your best options:

-Sanfaustino mineral water: this mineral water is called "the calcium water" and has 8% Calcium and 8% Magnesium with a pH of 5.9......plants love this stuff.....i swear it is as good as any miracle plant tonic i have ever seen, and i have used it directly on the soil as well as a foliar-feed (foliar-feed makes Ca and Mg immediately available, so if you are sure your plants have a Cal/Mg problem, and are still in vegetative, try a foliar-feeding method).....

-Calcium and Magnesium supplements from a health food store.....
Honestly i'm not sure which product is the best product here, but people have had good success with these......i guess you want the most "bio-available" supplement that you can find......if you have a lot of plants, this method should be cheaper than the Sanfaustino water method (but honestly, the Sanfaustino water only costs 2 dollars per liter, so it isn't prohibitively expensive unless you have lots of plants)....

People are pretty much fed up with Botanicare's Cal/Mag plus product......i've run it side-by-side Sanfaustino water and i saw absolutely no difference with Botanicare's product compared to great results with Sanfaustino water.....

Even if you cut your R/O water with 1/2 Spring water, you should get a noticeable difference in the Calcium and Magnesium uptake of your plants......some people still have good water flowing from the tap, but this is getting less and less so unfortunately.....

kind regards from guineapig

And you too. Thank you.

varriform · May 22, 2008

Hey Rich
I have a friend that has had some problems that seem to be alot like yours. I gave him some clones and some of my mix(alot like an LC mix) and it didn't work for him at all. He was using distilled water and some root and micronutrient stuff and PH chems, and his plants seemed to freak out on him. They seemed to be burning and getting lock out. It wasn't the mix that was his problem though, it was all the stuff he was adding to it. Even when he used the plain distilled they had problems.

richyrich · May 23, 2008

varriform said:
Hey Rich
I have a friend that has had some problems that seem to be alot like yours. I gave him some clones and some of my mix(alot like an LC mix) and it didn't work for him at all. He was using distilled water and some root and micronutrient stuff and PH chems, and his plants seemed to freak out on him. They seemed to be burning and getting lock out. It wasn't the mix that was his problem though, it was all the stuff he was adding to it. Even when he used the plain distilled they had problems.

Hey, thanks for the reply varriform

The supplements that I am adding are so little. Especially, when compared to what us hydro guys are used to putting in our resevoirs. To 20 gallons of RO water I had been adding 100ml of liquid karma, 20 ml of root excelurator and 5-10ml of ph up. That was it. Now here is how I reason that these supplements were not or have not been the problem. Since they were clones 5 weeks ago up until they were about at the 4th week the problem came. If the problem would have been constant then I would of been scrutinizing the supplements long ago. But the problem just arose and I can only reasonably conclude that they are not getting enough calcium and magnesium from the slow release of powdered dolomite lime because as they have become much larger so has their appetite. And on top of it I am growing a very magnesium hungry strain. So, RO water not having any additional cal and mag in it like tap water most likely is my problem. They were actually ready to be watered and I just added advanced nutes sensical at 200ppm to my RO water and the above minus the ph up. Now I can think of it as very clean tap water. From the pictures I posted you can see the classic signs of mag deficiency (the yellowing in between the veins) and the calcium deficiency (the rust spots in between the veins and towards the leaf edges). I have my fingers crossed.

BurnOne · May 23, 2008

Another case of everything going just fine with their organic grow. Then they checked their pH.

richyrich-
You didn't say anything about the root stimulator or the potassium hydroxide in your original post. That potassium hydroxide will kill the hell out of your microherd. When you do that, there is no bacteria. When there is no bacteria, there is no food for the plant.
You said you wanted to grow organic because you didn't want hassles anymore. Then you reverted to hydro methods and brought those hassles right along with them.

You don't have a magnesium deficiency. If you did, the leaves would point straight up. Epsom salts or CalMag Plus are not going to help you.

I'd say to try to wash that stuff out of your soil with worm casting tea. The blood/bone/kelp will still be there. Put that fucking pH meter away until you do another hydro grow. There is no better root stimulator than kelp.
Stick with a plan Man.
Good luck with your grow.
Burn1

Dignan · May 23, 2008

If you aren't using all organic additions, then you can't expect your soil to behave as if you were. You CAN grow using "organic-based" products... but it will take some experimenting and adjustment to find what works for you.

The plug-n-play soil mixes like LC's are only plug-n-play if you follow their directions... without any other funky additions or water sources. When you start making alterations, you can expect results that vary from what someone following directions closely would get.

I'm no organic nazi... Not saying you can't finish up an organic grow with things like Beastie Blooms or whatever, but to do it, you need to know exactly what you're doing.

---------------------

This Winter I'm going to do a side-by-side grow... one pair of clones in a 100% organic soil mix, adding only water... the other pair of clones in the exact same mix and the exact feeding regimen, but with one of these fancy synthetic "bloom boosters" added.

I have a feeling the yield will be identical either way, but I doubt the quality will.

richyrich · May 23, 2008

BurnOne said:
Another case of everything going just fine with their organic grow. Then they checked their pH.

Burn1

This is a bit misleading. Things were going fine and then the plant deficiencies came. So after thinking through every possible situation I checked the ph as a last resort. I did not check the ph and then add ph up and then mess up my organic grow as you prelude to above. Here is the thing; I had been feeding with the same stuff for the first 3-4 weeks with no problems and then wham. I should of had no microbe herd and therefore no food this whole time if I were killing them off with 5-10ml of ph up in 20 gallons of water. I have to say it, in hydro we add beneficials to the rez and use ph up and down all the time without problems. They are not known to kill microbes. The no no's are mixing h202, sm90, and etc, with benes. That root excelurator cost $140 a bottle. It has microbes in it and I for sure would know if it would be made useless by adding ph up or down to it when spending that kind of money.

Now I do believe I can put my ph meter away but I really do believe that my RO water is the problem and the slow release of lime. The soil cannot provide enough magnesium at the rate of need for my hungry strain. I don't want to use tap because of the chlorine and besides my tap sucks over here; 400ppm and 8.3ph. So, I am inclined to have to try adding some calmag to my RO water to make it comparable to tap. And you are right I do not have a magnesium deficiency at least in the perspective of it being in the soil. There is plenty in the soil. But my plants sure as hell are magnesium deficient. I have my mother plants in the same soil going through the same thing with some other strains and they are praying. I know what it is and not all strains will react the same way. My OG Kush and AK47 are folded up "praying" and look just like the pics here, also, but the bubba is not praying.

I am not trying to chop you at the knees but I have to kindly disagree right now. I am leaning with the 3-4 posters who hinted towards the RO water being the problem. I may just find myself wrong if they do not turn around in the next week. I'm just going to have to wait and see. Thanks.

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ph????? LC mix not buffering for me

richyrich

Out of the slime, finally.

ixnay007

"I can't remember the last time I had a blackout"

BurnOne

No damn given.

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guineapig

Active member

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richyrich

Out of the slime, finally.

BurnOne

No damn given.

Guest

BurnOne

No damn given.

richyrich

Out of the slime, finally.

Guest

richyrich

Out of the slime, finally.

richyrich

Out of the slime, finally.

richyrich

Out of the slime, finally.

varriform

Member

richyrich

Out of the slime, finally.

BurnOne

No damn given.

Dignan

The Soapmaker!

richyrich

Out of the slime, finally.

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