Sustainable organic ingredients.

Evolution · Sep 5, 2007

say it again

say it again

jolene said:
If people are going to grow sustainably then surely the main energy/resource consumer is electricity for banks of lights, fans and air conditioners?

say it again

jaykush · Sep 5, 2007

Perlite... now were thinking. Well something that comes to mind is coco chips. You know the big chunks of hard coco. Rice hauls would be cool as well. What's the ph and nutrient qualities of hauls? Also how fast do they break down?

i use coco husks on almost every type of plant around here that needs some mulching. the plants love it and it seems to break down into nutrients and organic matter for the plants. ive noticed a HUGE jump in the fungi in the top inches of the soil one the coco husks start breaking down. it takes about 2-4 weeks to break down usually the wetter it is the faster it breaks down. i tried to use it as a substitute to perlite and had little sucess. it worked for a little bit till they started turning to mush. i have noticed that the plants with the coco husk mulch are doing a lot better and have bigger leaves than the ones without it. not sure on ph.

While we're on the subject of sustainable ingredients, how about Perlite? My understanding (Limited as it is) is that it'd fall into the same category with peat, lime, et al... That's one reason I'm interested in rice hulls, since I think the hulls w/coco could work to help cut out perlite/peat. Probably need to play with things a bit to work it out, but it seems feasible if I can source the stuff. Correct me if I'm wrong here, just posting a quick note in passing.

theres another member here using a rice hull mix named thaiphoon. im not too sure on how he likes it, or the benefits to it. maybe he can chime in.

how come no one uses rocks and sand to aerate there mix. its only how mother nature does it.

Mr Celsius · Sep 6, 2007

jolene said:
If people are going to grow sustainably then surely the main energy/resource consumer is electricity for banks of lights, fans and air conditioners?

I recognize your input, however this isn't quite the focus of this thread. If you want to start another thread about this subject, I would happily join you in discussion. Because of the legality of herb, we have to turn to indoor cultivation to be safe.

Mr Celsius · Sep 6, 2007

how come no one uses rocks and sand to aerate there mix. its only how mother nature does it.

Good point, however, what should we use? What about silica stone?

Relik · Sep 6, 2007

Mr Celsius said:
how come no one uses rocks and sand to aerate there mix. its only how mother nature does it.

Mr Celsius said:

Good point, however, what should we use? What about silica stone?

Click to expand...

Makes me think... there is a beach not far from where I live where I can gather lots of lava rocks, that arrive floating by the sea from volcanic islands in the region. They are about an inch wide on average and weight almost nothing, I had never thought about using them until now! I think they'd need a few soaks in hot water to get rid of salts (the stuff is microporous, which is good provided it's clean before being introduced in the soil mix) before using them but that's no big deal to me, as I've rinsed large amounts of kelp (free and renewable in my case) picked up at the beach on a few occasions.

Coarse river sand is sometimes used for aeration over here but IMHO it makes things quite heavy if used in big containers/quantities, and ends up packing the soil at the bottom of the container.

JackTheGrower · Sep 6, 2007

The kind of sustainable organic materials I'm thinking of are the kind that I will add to my soil year after year that do not ruin the soil.

I'm now the owner of a six year old soil I made by composting things like alfalfa pellets, peat moss, pine shavings and such.

Sort of like I made in a tumbler in this thread.

http://www.growkind.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26276&page=11

I'm wondering what materials I should be adding each year.

Then again apples and oranges.. What do you grow in?

How do you see recycling of soil?

I read that some see materials as only useful for a time, why?

jaykush · Sep 6, 2007

Good point, however, what should we use? What about silica stone?

most of the time i get it from out back or the local mountains so its free of contaminates. i wouldn't use silica sand or industrial sand as its can cause some major health problems.

relik i know a few people who mix lavarock into there mixes. ive also read some info on it being a real good place for microbes and fungi to grow on.

jack ive recently made a compost tumbler and wow, just wow fresh compost in just a few weeks. started a batch added some quick return compost activator and 3 weeks later it was done.

Dignan · Sep 6, 2007

Nice thread Celsius, everybody.

As Kailua said, the finer the oyster shells are ground, the faster they act on the soil. Comparing dolomitic lime to oyster shells requires that we point out that lime isn't limestone... it's finely ground lime. Just as limestone must be processed to produce agricultural lime, oyster shells must be processed before they can act on the soil. They can be processed either by microbial action breaking them down over time, or by us, grinding them finely.

Oyster shells are about $1.30 per pound at our local feedstore so, quite inexpensive. And great stuff.

And I agree about the coco being more sustainable than peat, for sure. But I also think peat can and should be part of a recycled soil program, though it has often gotten a bad rap over the years for breaking down acidic. Peat does break down acidic, but the acidity is buffered just fine if you are replenishing lime/oyster shells and (more importantly IMO) the soil biology is healthy.

Dig

Mr Celsius · Sep 6, 2007

Ya I agree. There is a company that sells oyster shells locally, for agricultural purposes, so its very finely ground and I've used them in an outdoor grow before without any problems. Maybe the soil was already great, but it was added to Moonshine mix... who knows.

Any other ingredients out there people?

Pimpslapped · Sep 6, 2007

I think the best way to approach this would be to list the 'non sustainable' components that we use (Or are commonly used) and then see what alternatives can be found.

For example,
Dolomite Lime, can replace with oyster shells.
Peat, can substitute with coco or compost.
Perlite, maybe rice hulls, coco chunks, other ideas?

At least that's what seems to make sense to me, the simplest way to approach this.

A couple that I don't know about subbing, Greensand, rock phosphates(? Don't know how sustainable this is), many of the fulvic sources out there using leonardite (I think that's the one).

The Slickster · Sep 6, 2007

Also there are the earthworm bins for producing worm castings similar to the compost. Crushed several seashells with a hammer into powder and included it into a mixed reusable soil mix and added some lava rock that was sold for grilling outdoors at the very base for drainage. The bacteria do thrive on the large pourous surface area as the bottom of the pots have sizeable drainage holes giving way for oxygenation just like at the surface. There are already enough anaerobic areas of the soil with a different kind of bacteria for nutrient recycling and diversity, which is why a good mix of different substrates makes for a more complete soil functioning.

If solar panels were cheap to buy initially, more people would have them. But skylighting is another feasible option, of course sunlight is the superior renewable light source when it comes to spectrum. But man puts us in a place where we had to invent sophisticated lighting whose spectrum has yet to rival natural organic sunlight. To think something can be done better than nature is like saying a man made "pharmaceutical" plant feed is what the plant opts for just because we supposedly know plants better than nature and are forcing them to our will. Anything we use if flushed down the drain will contaminate the environment, drinking water, and ultimately ourselves. Whether by urine wastewater being indirectly recycled by the city or by direct water line contamination if chemicals are dumped in the ground.

One for the list of non sustainable ingredients is artificial feeds. Finding healthy, renewable and naturally sustainable life for our soil, crops, ourselves, and the planet, individually or as a group with others is the way. With renewable resources we are respectfully acknowledging the planet in doing so instead of destroying it, which is the main difference. Also a more natural grown herb will produce the most well rounded natural product whose effects are as intended to be and not a Sativex chemical producer with more undesirable side effects than the same grown the way it was meant to be. The rice hulls idea is a diverse one, where can they be found? How about pumice, and where is the clay most abundant, in deeper soil levels?

Relik · Sep 6, 2007

Pimpslapped said:
Peat, can substitute with coco or compost.

I mainly see coco as neutral, more like a texture agent (water/air/nute retention), rather than an active ingredient, that is complementary (sp?) to compost, which (just like earthworm castings) has the added benefit of providing a rich bacterial sample. Because of the microherd they carry, I consider compost/EWC as a priority for an organic soil mix, even if it's just, let's say, 1/10th of your total volume.

FRIENDinDEED · Sep 6, 2007

response to original post:

yeah i know what you mean as far as using sustainable materials, and staying organic as much as possible. really glad to see this post!!! last post i responded to was some "clown" talking about using a hormone type poduct as a pesticide to literally stop the reproductive abilities of spider mites and even the possibility of mice. i went f***in' balistic, caps and all.

:spank:

after i calmed down and went back to the thread, i really read it. . . :cuss:

and man i am more against buying from other dealers and mainly focusing on :joint:

growin' my own. . . :bashhead:

just too many wackos with the ability to read and grow . . too many people wanna "try the new thang!!" type mentalities, its just good to hear someone else tryin to keep it true and even greener!!

thanks Mr Celsius for starting this one, does my old stoner spirit/ young stoner heart good. . grow on friend grow on. . i think i will be lookin into that coco/oyster shells myself. . thnx

Mr Celsius · Sep 7, 2007

FRIENDinDEED said:
response to original post:

yeah i know what you mean as far as using sustainable materials, and staying organic as much as possible. really glad to see this post!!! last post i responded to was some "clown" talking about using a hormone type poduct as a pesticide to literally stop the reproductive abilities of spider mites and even the possibility of mice. i went f***in' balistic, caps and all.

after i calmed down and went back to the thread, i really read it. . . and man i am more against buying from other dealers and mainly focusing on growin' my own. . . just too many wackos with the ability to read and grow . . too many people wanna "try the new thang!!" type mentalities, its just good to hear someone else tryin to keep it true and even greener!!

thanks Mr Celsius for starting this one, does my old stoner spirit/ young stoner heart good. . grow on friend grow on. . i think i will be lookin into that coco/oyster shells myself. . thnx

I can become very vexed and frustrated with people as well. Its part of being human, but another part of being human is forgiving others and trying to show them a better way. One of the best ways to influence people into seeing things you way, is to show them the positive benefits it has in store for themselves.

Its my belief that one day, probably when I'm long dead, man will have figured out the *best* way of life for themselves... until that day, we shall explore and be pioneers of our arts and science.

Mr Celsius · Sep 7, 2007

It seems that guano is sustainable, well at least now-a-days. It seems that the synthetic fertilizer trade brought about some serious problems for Peru, but because of the the switch to synthetics, the guano industry is at least regulated.

Would you consider guano's "vegetarian" substitute for blood and bone meal? Also can someone explain to me why guanos are readily available and blood and bone meals are not? Have the microbes in the guano already broken down it down to plant available substances?

I feel that most of the cattle industry is very unsustainable. They are using GMO grains and stripping fertile crop lands to produce these feeds. While I agree that blood and bone meal are a bi-product and should not be wasted, I also feel that supporting such products is fairly unethical. Kind of like a double edged sword.

1. The Issue

The historical case about guano and its impact on the trade
and the environment is an interesting one. Guano, a natural
fertilizer made from bird droppings, was a prized commodity during
the 19th century and heavily traded by European and American
traders. It helped build countries like Peru, expanded empires
such as the United States, made companies and individuals involved
rich, and exploited the local populations and the environment.
Peru will be examined in detail because it was it's guano that was
most valuable to foreign traders. Also guano and the environment
will be looked at some length and what other problems lie ahead for
the guano birds and their environment.

2. Description

Guano was widely used by the native populations of pre-Spanish
Latin America for centuries as a fertilizer to increase crop
yields. However, it was not until the early 1800s that guano was
rediscovered by the Europeans to have valuable agricultural
benefits as a fertilizer. The best source of guano was discovered
on a series of islands off the coast of Peru which are barren and
rocky with no vegetation due to lack of rain in the area. Peru's
primary guano islands are the Chinchas, the Ballestras, the Lobos,
and the Macabi and Guanape islands. Other islands around the
world, off Africa, the Caribbean, and the Pacific islands, also
contained abundant guano reserves, however, Peru's guano was
considered to be the best for farming.

Guano is made up of bird droppings amassed over hundreds of
years due to weather and ocean currents. What distinguished Peru's
guano from guano found at other sources around the world was due to
the unique weather conditions found along Peru's coast. Because of
the Humboldt or Peruvian Current, which flows cold water from
Antarctica to the equator along Peru's coast, this creates an
interesting weather pattern where the cold water and warm air
prevents the fall of rain in this part of the world. Due to the
lack of rain on the islands along Peru's coast, the accumulated
bird droppings are baked in the dry atmosphere which preserves the
nitrates in those droppings from evaporating, thus maintaining its
effectiveness. Another factor that made guano an effective
fertilizer was that its contents originated from fish-eating birds.

The enormous fish reserves, consisting primarily of
anchovetas, have drawn a huge migration of birds and seals to these
islands. Because of there relative isolation from natural
predators, the guano producing birds settled on these islands and
raised their young there. Over the course of hundreds to thousands
of years and favorable weather conditions already explained, these
birds had accumulated guano reserves as 100 to 150 feet deep.
Three types of birds are the primary producers of guano, they are
the white-breast cormorant, the gray pelican, and the white-head
gannet or piqueros. It has been estimated that these birds,
around a million can reside on one island, to be able to create
over 11,000 tons of guano a year.

Guano has been an international commodity for almost 200
years. Because of the improved crop yields that guano produced for
farmers, guano became a heavily sought after commodity. Foreign
traders, especially the British, set up trading houses to ship
guano back to England and Europe for trade and distribution. The
Americans also found guano to be valuable in increasing American
crop yields, and permitted American traders to help the U.S.
government acquire islands in the Pacific and the Caribbean to
ensure American reserves under the U.S. Guano Island Act of 1856.
Due to the British monopoly of Peruvian guano, the U.S. Congress
passed the guano act to help American companies compete within the
guano market and to keep guano prices low for American farmers.
Therefore, American entrepreneurs were given the power to claim
guano islands in the Pacific and the Caribbean in the name of the
U.S. government. Around 60 islands were acquired or claimed under
the Guano Island Act like Pacific islands such as Howland, Baker,
and Jarvis islands, and Caribbean islands like Serranilla Keys,
Navassa, and Petrel islands were held and later released from U.S.
control when the need for guano had diminished during the 20th
century. As the 19th century came to an end, and artificial
fertilizers were developed, guano became less important and
countries like Peru suffered from economic decline and acquired
deep debt from years of mismanaging and misusing of its guano
funds.

During the height of Peru's golden age of guano, around 1840
to 1880, it has been estimated that the Peruvians excavated over
20,000,000 tons of guano for export, creating around $2 billion in
profits. However, by 1909-10, Peru's guano reserves were severely
depleted and could only yield around 48,000 tons of guano a year.
Therefore, since 1909, the Peruvian government has taken steps to
conserve its guano reserves by establishing the Guano
Administration to better manage their guano reserves by preserving
the guano birds and their environment. Such conservation measures
include having the islands become off limits to guano companies for
half a year to allow the birds to reaccumulate their guano reserves
and allow the birds to safely raise their young without having much
disruptions from human activity. Another measure has been
controlling the commercial fishing industry and setting fishing
quotas to preserve the fish reserves for the guano birds to feed on
and allow them to maintain their populations at a sufficient level.
Lastly, a key measure has been to set up park preserves on the
mainland where some birds migrate and to give them safe haven from
predators. These measures have allowed Peru to continue to use
guano for its own agricultural use in recent decades.

Another emerging threat that could destroy the unique weather
conditions of Peru's guano islands is the warming of the earth's
oceans. Due to the ocean warming and weather phenomenon in the
Pacific called El Nino, the warmer waters have disrupted the
ocean's eco-system within the Humboldt or Peruvian Current and
killing off the fish in that area.

If fish reserves fall drastically, this could affect the bird
populations and ultimately lead to a sharp reduction in guano
accumulations, thus harming Peru's economy. Furthermore, in
today's world, fish, bird, and seal populations are not the only
native life that may suffer because of guano. Just like Peru, some
islands are still dependent on it for survival as a tradable
commodity. Island governments in particular maybe willing to
sacrifice the animal populations for the well-being of the human
populations that have emerged or have grown over the decades.
Therefore, while the importance of guano maybe in the past, its
impact may have a lasting effect on both the animal and human
populations that still depend on it for its survival.

jolene · Sep 7, 2007

If you pass all household waste through worms (not shit, though you can if you know what you are doing) is the main thing as you need loads of it and it takes all those otherwise lost nutrient out of the waste stream - also I got given a load of oyster shells and after smashing them up passed them through the worm bins and it seems to pre-digest it a bit and they love the grittiness of it.
In fact everyone should have at least one worm bin -

Suby · Sep 7, 2007

Dignan · Sep 7, 2007

I believe guano is more readily available to plants because it is pre-composted by the digestive tracts of beetles.

Mr Celsius · Sep 7, 2007

Well in my quest to find cheap sources of fertilizers... I found a bunch of wholesale guano and various other organic fertilizers. Its my nature to stumble on these deals and have an opportunity to make $.

So guess how much the 2-8-1 bat guano is a ton?

DD4Y · Sep 7, 2007

I don't really buy into the statement about the supply of peat being non-sustainable. From what I see the people who promote that idea the most are the people who sell coco.

One article taht addresses is on this link below, but it is also from the peat industry so should be viewed along with conflicting evidence. The fact is however that peat bogs in Canada do renew themselves and there is such an abundance that is it is used only for horticultural purposes it will never run out because it is renewing faster than it is being harvested. Use coco if it makes for a better grow, but be aware that the argument that it is somehow more environmentally friendly to ship coir from the Phillipines or wherever, than using a renewable home harvested media is kinda suspect.

http://www.peatmoss.com/concern.php

Sustainable organic ingredients.

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