Phosphoload, Gravity, Bushmaster, Topload, and Flower Dragon Lab Test Results!

To this day many nutrient manufacturers have not disclosed the active or "secret" ingredients of their questionable products. We are told this is to keep any trade secrets from getting out but its fairly well known that any 'secrets' in this business are old news in the horticulture/agronomy department. People are buying products without any knowledge or concern of what said products contain. I know too many growers that moaned when Phosphoload was banned and when Gravity was taken off the shelves. Whether you use marijuana for recreational or medicinal use, its ridiculous to take a largely harmless plant and spray chemicals on it that are not allowed on food crops that can make your plant harmful if consumed.
Im a bit of a Blackstone libertarian in that i think if you want to hurt yourself, you can go ahead and do it as long as you harm no others. However many of the people buying these products and spraying their plants with these harmful chemicals DO NOT grow for just their own needs. Many provide to dispensaries where their chemical sprayed product is SOLD AS MEDICINE, or to an illicit market where unsuspecting buyers are consuming a product that's more harmful than they've come to know. Marijuana is by astronomical proportions the most consumed somewhat-illicit substance in the world, and that's because its comparatively a harmless substance with many [potential] health benefits. But once you start spraying your cannabis with some of these plant growth regulators/retardants (PGR's) and systemic fungicides and insecticides (but that's a whole separate discussion), you're creating a potentially harmful product and providing it to a large group of consumers/patients who are unwittingly consuming marijuana that's now more harmful to consume than in the history of its existence.
We've all heard that nobody has died from smoking weed. Well, with a new standard of harmful PGR's and systemics sweeping through the growers community, i think that might change soon. there has already been a medical marijuana/AVID related death. Its just a matter of time before peoples health starts getting compromised form the consumption of these mystery PGR products and systemics.

The following attachments were provided to me by G. Low, author of Integral Hydroponics and the co/owner of integralhydro.com and manicbotanix.com, with the expressed permission to post said given attachments. The attachments are lab test results of PGR concentration of different "mystery" growth regulating products like Phosphoload, Gravity, Flower Dragon etc. Thank you G for all your personal endeavors in fighting the good fight against the PGR Peddlers

Lab Testing Results courtesy of integralhydro.com
Bushmaster: 271ppm Paclobutrazol
Gravity: 516ppm Paclobutrazol
Flower Dragon: 18,400-18,650ppm Daminozide, 30-46.3ppm Paclobutrazol
Phosphoload: 17,800ppm Daminozide, 20.6ppm Paclobutrazol
TopLoad: 3,467ppm Daminozide

paclobutrazol and daminozide even in the "phosphoload"

what a bunch of assholes.

i've always avoided these products for for obvious reasons(not a hack) but it's still interesting to see the results of independent testing.

good stuff dizzle, thanks

i dont mess with any of that shit anymore. had a bad time with bushmaster and decieded not to use any more ever again. thanks for the info

This was written by G. Low, the provider of the above attachments.

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The Daminozide Money Trail

Let’s analyze for a moment how much money is made by those promoting PGRs as “rare earth elements”, “citrates”, “arginates”, “quinalone” (a new one to me), “humatic isolates”, “kelp” etc to unsuspecting consumers.

The math…

1 gram of pure substance in 1L equates to 1000ppm. Given Flower Dragon contains 18,400ppm of Daminozide this equates to 18.4 grams per litre of Daminozide at 100% purity in 1L (solute (Daminozide) + solvent (water) = 1L).

Recently, for the purpose of this article, I priced purchasing 100Kg of Daminozide from a Chinese supplier. The product was 850 grams a kilo Daminozide or 85% purity.

Next….

To achieve 18,500ppm of Daminozide in solution with the Chinese product it would require 21.76g/L. Based on this, 1Kg of 85% Daminozide would produce 45.95 litres of Flower Dragon. The price of the Chinese product at 100Kg was $97.00 USD per Kg. Add shipping and other costs to this and we could conservatively estimate that Daminozide costs ex China $98.50 USD per kilo landed in BC, Canada where Flower Dragon is produced. Let’s be generous and make that $100 USD per 1Kg of Daminozide. Therefore, 100 Kg of Daminozide costs $10,000 USD ex China to BC. Don’t get hung up on the math. It’s largely irrelevant. The end result is the important thing (for those of you wishing to check my math feel free).

Okay, so we know that 1Kg of 85% Daminozide produces $45.95 litres of Flower Dragon and 1Kg of Daminozide costs $100 USD. Therefore 1L of Flower Dragon requires $2.17 of Daminozide (I.e. 100 ÷ 45.95 = $2.17 USD).

Let’s also add twenty cents in Paclobutrazol (PBZ being cheap and used at low levels), $1.00 per plastic bottle used in production and $1.50 for labels. Total cost to produce 1L of Flower Dragon = $4.87 (round that off to $5.00 for ridiculously low levels of P and K that are also added in production).

Next….

100 kilo of 85% purity Daminozide makes 4595.5 litres of Flower Dragon or 4595.5 1L bottles of saleable product. Total cost to produce equals $22, 977 USD based on $5.00 per bottle estimate.

Next….

Flower Dragon retails in the US for $120.00. We have 4595.5 1L bottles each retailing for $120.00. 4595.5 x $120.00 = $551,460.00 from an initial investment of $22, 977. Therefore, the profit made along the way equates to $528,483.00 or roughly 2,300%.

Next….

Wholesalers typically mark up products 30% and retailers typically have markups of 100% on consumables. Based on this, Flower Dragon is sold to the wholesalers for about $45.00 (a $40.00 profit for Envy Plant Products or a 900% profit and $40 x 4595.5 = $183,820.00 on 100Kg of Daminozide = $165,4380.00 in profits); wholesalers then sell to retailers at $60.00 (4595.5 x $20 = $91,910) and finally retailers Flower Dragon to consumers for $120.00 (4595.5 x $60 = $275, 730).

Wow!!

Of course, I’ve oversimplified this somewhat because people have rents etc to pay. The aim, however, is to demonstrate the vast sums of money that are made through the sales of these products.

What is most important to note here is the vast amount of profits generated all flow to the top of the Daminozide pyramid. That is, wholesalers make 30%, retailers make 100% and Steve Berlow et al make 900% on 100% of all Flower Dragon sales across the US et al. Technically speaking, this amounts to millions of dollars earned very quickly from lies, more lies, more lies, and Daminozide.

Peace and respect
G

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To read more visit:
http://www.integralhydro.com/
or
http://www.manicbotanix.com/

I came so close in purchasing Flower Dragon, the guy at our local hydroponic shop was pushing this crap hard. When i asked was it organic he hesitated and said no but its a great product i change my mind quick fast and in a hurry. I just don't believe in using any product that are not organic!

I don't agree with the non-disclosure by the manufacturers regarding these products but reality is, in the concentrations listed and in the amounts used they are literally harmless. In the past I have used Phosphoload & Gravity but surely never applied them foliar and they were used in very small concentrations that were well below recommended rates and applied via the root systems. I did have great results with both products and they did make a difference in the final harvest. I have not used any of these products anytime recently but I would not hesistate to smoke any that I grew myself using them.

Paclo is not really dangerous at all and the whole propaganda regarding Daminozide/Alar was not fact based and was blown way out of proportion many years ago. It is only a possible carcinogen and only at very high levels thousands of times what you would potentially be exposed to by using herb grown with these products. That does not mean I condone them just trying to give the other side here, they are not super dangerous toxic chemicals whatsoever & they are widely used in horticulture outside of Cannabis.

Thank you though for this post and info it is very much appreciated.

@SOFT420 but you do admit that both paclobutrazol and daminozide are not allowed to be used on any kind of consumable crops in the U.S., and if marijuana was a legal crop, applications of both daminozide and paclobutrazol would be illegal?

Absolutely totally 100% agree with you. And consumers should know what is in these products there needs to be full disclosure like I said very good post brother thanks

I'm all for total legalization as well, that will be a bright sunny day for all of us

Paclobutrazol and Daminozide are widely used horticulture, but the fact is although paclo is registered for use with edible crops there is a withholding period. Daminozide is only registered for use on ornamental plants, not for human consumption. Given the toxicity of a number of chemicals that are allowed for use in agriculture a fair bit of weight must be given to the fact that daminozide can not be registered for anything other than ornamentals.
Glyphosate, the most widely used herbicide in the world since it was marketed in 1974 is now starting to raise a lot of questions about it's toxicity and persistence in the environment.
The facts are that paclobutrazol and daminozide are not disclosed as ingredients in these products. These products have not been registered for use in hydroponics for a reason.

A brief stop in under a trolls internet name

A brief stop in under a trolls internet name



Dizzle thanks and respect. You probably may have a chuckle at the user name I have chosen Figured I could shut huniebeez off at the path by registering his/her user name I'm expecting a large misinformation and slander campaign (already started by hunie.beez on at least two other forums). Other than this I have now been threatened with legal action with some dubious claim that I tried to balck mail Envy Plant products. Not true (I've been on the record since 2003) and I am looking forward to any legal case where we can discuss their actions (I'll be sure to invite the press). My only comment when threatened with legal action was quote me on this when you see your lawyers. "Your clients are sociopaths. Good luck!"


This is an email I received from a Czech hydroponic story owner asking me to comment. It may give people here some insight into the levels of depravity PGR peddlers are willing to descend to in order to swindle unsuspecting consumers out of their money. Compare email to lab results.In the coming weeks I'm expecting a shitfight on forums (let's hope not but it may happen as it did in 2003 when I and others went after Superbud) and I'm posting this to preempt things so that people understand that the people behind Flower Dragon will say and do anything to protect their sales (which must now be decimated as Flower Dragon has been pulled from the UK and European markets, been pulled in Ca and Oregon and they have lost their key US distributor, Sunlight Supply). I was also denied 45 pages of FOIA so I expect there is a lot going on behind the scenes. Hopefully the EPA is all over them!

“Re: Flower Dragon
(name edited)
I think to better explain Flower Dragon and what it is and to allay some misconceptions we really need to look first at what Paclobutrazol is and what it isn’t so you can be better informed….
Firstly Paclobutrazol is a safe product to use and is used on many crops worldwide including; Avocadoes, Peaches, Cherries, and Mangoes – in fact it is more safe than many of the chemical salts used to make regular nutrients for the plants. People who say that Paclobutrazol is unsafe or unhealthy to use are misinformed and should look to correct scientific data and not the growers forums for their information – LOL!
The LD50 or the amount needed to give rats to cause death in 50% of them is 5,400mg.kg of weight. For a human this would equal 378,000mg or almost ½ a kilogram for an average person! Compare this to the LD 50 of say Potassium Nitrate, a commonly used salt in every hydroponic fertilizer of 3,500mg/kg.
This mean that potassium nitrate is 50% more poisonous or deadly than Paclobutrazol!!! But of course we know that Potassium Nitrate is not poisonous or dangerous to us in normal amounts - so it is easy to see how ridiculous these health scares for paclobutrazol is.
So now for Paclobutrazol and growing of resinous plants.
Paclobutrazol is a very poor choice for providing the plants as it severs ( disconnect ) the pathway responsible for producing the resins – the gibberilic pathway.
The gibberilic pathway is also responsible for the upward growth of the plant. So paclobutrazol is good for controlling the height but not for resin plants as it stops the production of resin also!
An easy way to see for the use of paclobutrazol is to see that the plant does not produce very much resin at all!
So we can see this is maybe a good choice for the height control but not if the plant you want to grow also makes resins. So now that we know a little of the background of Paclobutrazol let us look at Flower Dragon
Flower Dragon was never designed as a height control product. It was designed as a product that can make the flowers much larger with more resins – that are of high quality. The fact that Flower Dragon can control the height is a secondary benefit but not the main features or why Flower Dragon was design. The simple fact that Flower Dragon makes the plants produce much resin demonstrate that Flower Dragon is not a paclobutrazol based product.
Flower Dragon uses a different method to make the flowers larger and the plant produce more resins. For this we need to make the gene expression. The gene expression control how plants ( and animals and people ) can grow and develop in certain ways. For this we need to make the target genes produce more peptides and other compounds – such as sterols ( up-regulate ) that make for resin increases and to make other target genes make less compounds ( down-regulate ) to allow the flowers to be larger. This regulation occurs within the Shikimic Pathway ( which also regulate the production of gibberlinins ). By allowing for both up and down regulation of the genetic expression we can produce the results which are desired to us ( bigger flowers with more resin ). The part that gibberilin play in this is that for the flowers to develop fully – the production of gibberilin should slow – but not completely stop- this is important as gibberilins are also important in the production of resins and for the expansion of the cell membranes - but too much gibberilin make the flowers not grow as we would like.
The important compounds that Flower Dragon uses is 2 proprietary compounds develop by us.
One is what is generally known as an Arginine ligated triazole compound. The specific type and structure of this compound is of course a trade secret to us and so unfortunately Tomas we cannot disclose the precise nature of this compound – for it would then be easy for others to copy. The other is what is known as a quinalone type compound. Of course once again the exact type is also a trade secret to us. It maybe be a business mistake for me to disclose even this much of the secret and make it easier for others to copy but I know you have customers who would like some answers. I can assure you that both of the compounds are quite safe – in fact I regularly consume product that has been grown with Flower Dragon. I do this with pride!
The other ingredients are there to support phosphorus mobility and metabolisn. These include Citrates and Tartarates.
Citrates and tartarates are carboxylate anions that assist the plant in mobilising and uptaking phosphorus and metal ions. The main citrates - Citrate Succinate Citrate Acetate and Citrate Lactate – are very effective at making phosphorus more soluble and mobile. This allows the plant to have a constant supply of bio available phosphorus during times of heavy flower production.

Now for the strange stories that you have read on the internet by a guy whom I believe is a crazy guy - a guy called G. Low
This guy is a journalist who used to work in a hydroponic store in Australia ( maybe because he could not get work as a journalist>? ). He was used by several owners of different nutrient companies to make a scare campaign on the internet for a product called Super bud. This product was made by a company that I use to work for called Dutch Master.
The only things in his story that are true are;
Yes - I used to work for Dutch Master
Yes – I was responsible with Dr Deepak for the development of all the Dutch Master Products. In fact Dr Deepak was my personal tutor for 5 years!
Yes – I was the person behind much of the success of the Dutch Master products.”
[End Quote]

Ironic that Steve Berlow is paying out on Paclobutrazol telling the recipient of the email that it reduces resin production (it does) and then the lab work shows up positive for Paclobutrazol.

And Gchem Paclobutrazol is already banned throughout the EU because of question marks over safety and it is a bioaccumulator. I.e. Paclobutrazol has been shown to be an environmental contaminant (Kathrin Reintjes et al 2006). In field situations, paclobutrazol is shown to have a half-life ranging from 3 to12 months (Lever 1986) or 12 to 18 months, although some have reported persistence as long as 3 years (Jacyna and Dodds, 1995). Some commercial greenhouse operations have had issues dealing with chemical residues.1 The persistence of Paclobutrazol in soil may result in contamination of nearby water bodies, thus presenting a possible hazard to human and animal health, and could also influence soil microbial activity with further effects on biodiversity.2


Thanks all
Glow

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all i know is bushmaster ruined 3 k worth of weed at half the reccomended dosage. i am done with it and other products like it .i plan to be 100 percent organic by spring

What did it do burn them up?

I'm guessing you used it as a foliar?

+K on the all organic plans though seriously, I'm never going back myself to chem ferts because organic is the path to herbal enlightenment. Organic buds are amazing when grown properly.

it stopped the stretch dead in its tracks and actually lowered my yields. it also cut resin amounts [thc] significantly. it went for mexi prices. luckilly i was back east at the time in the burbs and even mexi goes well. i am gonna order my cement mixer this week and back to 100 organic i go. go patriots

That sucks man, the wierd thing is I used Gravity in drip hydro (coir/hydroton medium) awhile back I think at like half or less the recommended dosage and the buds were extremely frosted & resinous still so it must really depend on application rates bigtime when it comes to the paclo and I have heard conflicting results with it from many users which makes me question how consistent the concentrations are in the products themselves. My guess is there is not much consistency in the batches since they did not even disclose the contents to begin with. Also in hydro you change the reservoir out after using it but I'm sure some would still persist in the coir. Anyways, organic all the way much love & onward through the fog

A very reliable source has informed me that the EPA and Canadian authorities are all over these products. It's moving out from Ca and Oregon and will become a North American ban on Flower Dragon and other products. The UK and Europe have already had this shite pulled from their shelves so guess we'll have to see what happens in the next reincarnation of poisons marketed as science defying dribble.

Buying 200L of Flower Dragon and Recovery Dragon next week.

Love that shit.

how unethical of you. hope you smoke all that yourself or let people you're providing for know what you use to grow.
figures people like yourself don't have it in them to figure out how to properly dose their plant or figure out how to get the FD out their medium so they have to waste more money on other bullshot products (recovery dragon). p.s. gibberellins are an essential part of both trichome and resin production. daminozide and paclobutrazol (flower dragon) both retard gibberellin synthesis. enjoy the bammer.

At least your honest about your ethical standings. you are aware of the possible health risks you're putting the consumers of your product in by using Flower Dragon but you continue to use the product because a little extra change in pocket is more important than other peoples health to you.

@everybody please don't forget to show Vag how you feel about his/her opinions via reputation

Smoking causes cancer too. I don't see anybody crying about the damage that does?

Just filled 3 250 gallon reservoirs today 3L each. Shit's about the explode.

I don't smoke weed. It's not my thing. My vice is high end escorts. 18-20 year olds.

VagPuncher said:

Buying 200L of Flower Dragon and Recovery Dragon next week.

Love that shit.

Click to expand...

HMM... Recovery Dragon being a nutrient to flush the Flower Dragon out of mediums im guessing... the people that make Flower Dragon should at least be honest enough to admit that Daminozide isn't absorbed by roots, so your plants only get a Paclobutrazol doze when you apply it to the medium.

Funny that Flower Dragons makers had to make a whole different product just for people that don't know how to use their FIRST product right...