Fungus gnats or WINGED ROOT APHIDS???

EclipseFour20 · Mar 14, 2013

And the winner for the 2100st post goes to....(drum roll please)...Hydrodreams. Congrats!

The hypoaspis miles, among other things, have that tell tale cape shaped like a V on its back with those funny tags, which I do not see on your pics Hydro. Great move on investigating what you have before treating your plants...sooo many stoners shoot first, then ask questions later!

medicalmj · Mar 14, 2013

Yep, that's 100% a mite (8 legs). I won't put a pos ID (eclipse knows more about Hypoaspis so look to that, I can only ID orbatid or astigmatid) cause it looks shriveled. Ya got any live ones to show?

Great pics and Thanks for showing!

hydrodreams · Mar 14, 2013

EclipseFour20 said:
And the winner for the 2100st post goes to....(drum roll please)...Hydrodreams. Congrats!

The hypoaspis miles, among other things, have that tell tale cape shaped like a V on its back with those funny tags, which I do not see on your pics Hydro. Great move on investigating what you have before treating your plants...sooo many stoners shoot first, then ask questions later!

Eclipse, if anyone in this thread deserves a applause, it's defenetely you!!! It must have been countless hours you spent for research until you found a working method to fight root aphids. And last but not least you post your findings here in a way that people can recognise that you are a pro.

medicalmj said:
Yep, that's 100% a mite (8 legs). I won't put a pos ID (eclipse knows more about Hypoaspis so look to that, I can only ID orbatid or astigmatid) cause it looks shriveled. Ya got any live ones to show?

Great pics and Thanks for showing!

I don't know if it's really 8 legs. One could confuse their antenna with legs. And they have 2 antenna, thats for sure. I could catch another one, but the microscope is not at my own place and its not working really properly to record a video of a living one.

So you rather tend to believe it's a root aphid or not?

EclipseFour20 · Mar 14, 2013

You guys are too kind. I still have no idea how I got RAs--I do not import genetics (seed only), I run clean shop, mix my own potting mix, and was 100% organic with a biodynamic twist--that was until RAs overwhelmed me.

When I tried the usual recommendations I felt my weed tasted like shit--I knew I could do better. So...I bought, begged, borrowed all the effective poisons, talked entomologists and some smart folks from Cal Poly Pomona School of Agriculture, and then applied myself to the problem and posted the winning strategy.

Now, the new riddle that I want solve is: What effect does Orhene + Riptide have on spider mites and fungus gnats? It seems the Orthene + Riptide dunk is a knocking out for these bastards as well (confirmed fungus gnats a while back and just recently received a couple of mite reports).

RetroGrow · Mar 15, 2013

EclipseFour20 said:
I still have no idea how I got RAs

Please, let's get real. You got them from your potting soil, where they live. It's NOT a mystery, but you are in denial for your own reasons. And you run a perpetual grow, which perpetuates the RAs. If you were in coco, they would have been gone 3-4 years ago. Potting soil is the main vector, and that is a fact, despite your obfuscation.

Kronikal_kiwi · Mar 15, 2013

Hey there guys.

So I have been battling "fungus gnats" for ages, only to now realise the reason my vectobac wasn't working was because these little pricks are Root aphids!

Im not prepared to dump the crop, there's just too much there, and I need this.

They are 2 weeks into a 10 week flowering cycle so I'm not too concerned about residues etc.

My problem is that I am in NZ, so we dont have a lot of the products available to us that you all do.

So I have searched and found Yates Confidor Sachets, along with all the other Yates and Bayer Confidor products, also we have Orthene readily available to us over here.

I am going shopping in the morning to deal with this issue.
I am going to buy which ever of these products people reccomend, and will mix it up and solidly drench all plants!

I have 8 plants in 12 liter (3 gal) bags of coco. My infestation is probably on the more serious side, however plants are very healthy and robust, and I see no issues on them yet. I have lots of flyers when I water, and lots of the little light coloured pricks crawling over the outside of my planter bags.

So which would you guys reccomend to purchase and use as a drench?
The confidor which is Imidacloprid based?
or the Orthene which is Acephate based?

I want rid of these little bastards before I end up with a horror story like I hear in this thread!

Thank you everyone and I will let you know how I get on.
Also, quickly, is longer drenching harmful? I mean ten minutes of full on having the planter bag submerged under the chemical, I know that these products are sold with the intention that they will be sprayed, but let's be honest, these bugs are in our soil/coco and surely the best method is submerging the medium in chemical!

yerboyblue · Mar 15, 2013

I need to elaborate a little on that for sure. The damage didn't happen 2 weeks later, it slowly occurred over the two weeks following the application, at the end of the two weeks my plants were for the most part, dead. I thought they would be fine because I did some testers in the veg room that time before hand, and they were fine about 5 days later, but they were on a different feed/water schedule than the flower rooms. The damage really started to set in when I reintroduced chem ferts.
My friends who still use Orthene and chem ferts use a significantly smaller dose, like 3/4 ounce per 30 gallons. They also make sure to use water only the water before application, and water only the application after. They have noticed significant differences in plant reactions if they have ferts in the soil still or give them ferts a couple days later, to the negative affect.

EclipseFour20 said:
I was not aware of yerboyblue's problems. Not saying he did anything wrong, but damage 2 weeks after the treatment may or may not be related to Orthene + Riptide. That said--one can not rule out a conflict with his synthetics as he suggests--or other normal growing issues (PH to high/low, etc)

Hate to see anyone lose a crop, hence why I posted the Orthene + Riptide solution I discovered.

yerboyblue · Mar 15, 2013

Oh, and I would like to report being RA free as of right now due to starting over from cuts, some minor room cleaning and pesticide spraying of floors and walls, sterilizing dirt (I know, I know organic people), and Met 52 from clone. Week 3 or so into flower and not dropping or yellowing of leaves or massive Cal/Mag deficiences. I haven't treated with anything in months, since they were very little. I even dumped a few out of the pots a week or two before flower and didn't see anything except for some FG larvae on like one.

That being said, and all the stuff over the past year, the switch to hydro is in progress. Sick of fighting stuff I can't really see. (Now I will probably get broad mites because I said that.)

EclipseFour20 · Mar 15, 2013

RetroGrow said:
Please, let's get real. You got them from your potting soil, where they live. It's NOT a mystery, but you are in denial for your own reasons. And you run a perpetual grow, which perpetuates the RAs. If you were in coco, they would have been gone 3-4 years ago. Potting soil is the main vector, and that is a fact, despite your obfuscation.

Stupid stoners...they always think what happens to them, must happen to everyone else! Regardless of the facts.

Retro..I asked this before--think you can answer it now? How do you reconcile the RA infestation of those growing in soil-less mediums, like rockwool (which some think is a perfect medium for RAs), expanded clay, etc.--if the exclusive source of RAs is "soil"?

And...please identify the component in my custom potting mix--that YOU THINK is the source of RAs: Promix, bark, compost, worm casting, perlite, vermiculite, calcined clay, and fossil shell flour...(anyone see the word "soil"?)

You are toooo funny--coco growers are immune from getting RAs....thanks for a good morning chuckle!

BTW....since my "perpetual grow" has ZERO...I said ZERO Root Aphids, what exactly am I perpetuating with great obfuscation? LOL!

EclipseFour20 · Mar 15, 2013

Yerboy...my condolences on your loss. Ignoring operator error, I think your die off may be related to PH or a conflict with something that locked up the plant (like an unknown reaction with your synthetics).

Once during my botanigard treatment testing, a few plants had such sever root damage--that I doubted their ability to survive the treatment and I just culled em.

Glad your back and running!

medicalmj · Mar 15, 2013

Kronikal_kiwi said:
Hey there guys.

So I have been battling "fungus gnats" for ages, only to now realise the reason my vectobac wasn't working was because these little pricks are Root aphids!

Im not prepared to dump the crop, there's just too much there, and I need this.

They are 2 weeks into a 10 week flowering cycle so I'm not too concerned about residues etc.

My problem is that I am in NZ, so we dont have a lot of the products available to us that you all do.

So I have searched and found Yates Confidor Sachets, along with all the other Yates and Bayer Confidor products, also we have Orthene readily available to us over here.

I am going shopping in the morning to deal with this issue.
I am going to buy which ever of these products people reccomend, and will mix it up and solidly drench all plants!

I have 8 plants in 12 liter (3 gal) bags of coco. My infestation is probably on the more serious side, however plants are very healthy and robust, and I see no issues on them yet. I have lots of flyers when I water, and lots of the little light coloured pricks crawling over the outside of my planter bags.

So which would you guys reccomend to purchase and use as a drench?
The confidor which is Imidacloprid based?
or the Orthene which is Acephate based?

I want rid of these little bastards before I end up with a horror story like I hear in this thread!

Thank you everyone and I will let you know how I get on.
Also, quickly, is longer drenching harmful? I mean ten minutes of full on having the planter bag submerged under the chemical, I know that these products are sold with the intention that they will be sprayed, but let's be honest, these bugs are in our soil/coco and surely the best method is submerging the medium in chemical!

If you have lots of fliers in a grow room they are not RAs. Or at least the fliers aren't RAs unless your plants are dead, almost dead, or you some how disrupted the root zone enough to induce fliers.

What you're seeing is probably fungus gnats. Fungus gnats can really mess up a crop too.

But you still might have RAs, but they will remain in the root zone until they kill your plant or if you provide a winter environment in your grow room every year, or somehow disrupt there ecosystem w/o killing them.

So, Imidicloprid is your answer for both FG and RA. So I hope that's what you get. Looking at academic horti sites, Imid is listed as the chem treatment for RAs. And it will eliminate the FGs too. You can find various % out there. I just like to make sure no other chems are in it and that it is veggie approved.

medicalmj · Mar 15, 2013

Oh yeah, Bayer fruit tree and veggie at 2% I believe can be found anywhere (no need to go to a hydro shop) and cheap.

EclipseFour20 · Mar 15, 2013

Med, since there are probably a hundred or so posts in this particular thread that parrots your thought on imidacloprid...for the few of us that find imidacloprid either ineffective or excessive in the "half-life" department, what alternatives would you recommend if repeated doses of imidacloprid did not work for you?

However, I submit one correction about flyers--the life cycle of Root Aphids is not dependent on the life cycle of the plant, so it is normal to see mature/morphed RAs develop wings around healthy young plants; since RA require both moist organic material and plant tissue--including sucking on roots--for their food.

The strategy the vineyards implemented to win their phylloxera battle (aka root aphid) was novel and "pesticide-less"--a "phylloxera resistant" root stalk was developed and to grow ALL grapes.

Bobbito Blaze · Mar 15, 2013

I battled with fungus knats for a while till I learned ho to get rid of them I have two full proof methods that work great for me and everyone who uses them.
This is the most effective:
1:I got this stuff from local grow store it's a white plastic container that is filled with vermiculite is what they grow these Nematodes on and about 1 teaspoon sprinkled over flower pot seems to work flawlessly

2: Get those donut shaped mosquito dunks break one in half and let it soak fora bit in your water can with the water you plan to use after dunk has dissolved water plants

The first method with the Natodes is the nest stuff I've found works very well

RetroGrow · Mar 15, 2013

EclipseFour20 said:
Stupid stoners...they always think what happens to them, must happen to everyone else! Regardless of the facts.

Retro..I asked this before--think you can answer it now? How do you reconcile the RA infestation of those growing in soil-less mediums, like rockwool (which some think is a perfect medium for RAs), expanded clay, etc.--if the exclusive source of RAs is "soil"?

And...please identify the component in my custom potting mix--that YOU THINK is the source of RAs: Promix, bark, compost, worm casting, perlite, vermiculite, calcined clay, and fossil shell flour...(anyone see the word "soil"?)

You are toooo funny--coco growers are immune from getting RAs....thanks for a good morning chuckle!

BTW....since my "perpetual grow" has ZERO...I said ZERO Root Aphids, what exactly am I perpetuating with great obfuscation? LOL!

Already answered that, and you already know the answer. Potting soil is the main vector of RAs. But you already know that, and we have been through this before. So why do you continue to ask the same obtuse questions?
I really think you just like to hear yourself talk.
You started a new RA thread with the same BS, and were quickly shot down by a senior member.
Do you want me to link it?
I'm not here to embarrass you, just to counter your endless BS & self promotion. Basically, you are full of it, and everyone knows that RAs are vectored by potting soil. That's why you are still here 3 (4?) years later fighting your battle, while I and many others in coco have permanently eliminated RAs with a single treatment, years ago. Doesn't mean you can't get them in other mediums, which has already been answered/explained, but potting soil is by far their biggest vector. In addition, you run a perpetual system, which contributes to your ongoing problems, as you never completely tear down your room and clean everything. I do believe you have the world record though for taking the longest amount of time to deal with the problem. Maybe you can get in Guinness.
Keep up the BS and endless repetitive questions that have already been answered ad infinitum if it makes you feel important.

hydrodreams · Mar 15, 2013

RetroGrow said:
[...]That's why you are still here 3 (4?) years later fighting your battle, while I and many others in coco have permanently eliminated RAs with a single treatment, years ago. Doesn't mean you can't get them in other mediums, which has already been answered/explained, but potting soil is by far their biggest vector. In addition, you run a perpetual system, which contributes to your ongoing problems, as you never completely tear down your room and clean everything. I do believe you have the world record though for taking the longest amount of time to deal with the problem. Maybe you can get in Guinness.[...]

If you read the comments of Eclipse, he mentioned several times, that he didn't see a single root aphid in his room for 2 years.

You also name the circumstance that he is using soil instead of coco and that he is growing perpetual. So do you wanna say that everybody should stop growing with soil and growing perpetual in order to lower the chance to have root aphid- problems? I was growing for years with coco and nothing could make me going back to it and give up soil. My very experienced friends think the same way (they yield 850g/m2 with 600W).

Eclipse's intention was to find a solution with a 100% knockdown after a one time treatment. He found one and he doesn't have root aphids since 2 years even if he is growing on soil and perpetual.

He is not fighting them anymore for a long time.

EclipseFour20 · Mar 15, 2013

LOL...Retro, you are almost as funny than an old Laurel & Hardy flick.

Please hold my feet to the fire (or what you call embarrass)...and please show me where my conclusions are contrary to science?

Not to start a flame war, but in the interest of "full disclosure", some of Retro' past insights (just from this thread)--

RetroGrow said:
...I do not have conclusive evidence on this yet, but I have dramatically reduced my RA population to practically nil and I still see symptoms in various systems, seemingly triggered by different problems (spraying with things the plant doesn't like seems to be the biggest culprit - anything with petroleum products in it, especially after plants have received foliar Mag-Amp, which I am stopping now). There is also a thin brown film on some of the roots of my plants in keg-cups in rockwool mini-cubes - even though aphids have been gone for weeks and I have treated with H2O2, Hygrozyme, Voodoo Juice, trichoderma etc... The plants continue to grow but the roots don't seem to.

"Film" is actually not the right word for it. The first stages of it seem to be the root turning somewhat translucent and off-white (rather than looking bone-white and opaque) as if it has pus inside it. Then (presumably, as I have not directly observed this as a progression) the root gets a glossy film [for lack of better word] on it that is only really visible under magnification (though you can see the light-brownness with the bare eye) In some places along the root there are small brown glops of gross-stuff that make up most of the brownness. In one of my hydro systems that I re-planted after the aphids and heavy chem applications, the large chunks of perlite were also covered with this shiny, light-brown gloss that is not super-apparent unless you look at one of the coated chunks of perlite next to one that is not coated.

I suspect that this is an organism. It is possible that this is the root-killing spit that aphids left behind, but it seems that it would have been washed of by now. Treatment with H2O2 and beneficials has not been conclusive (though I am yet to do a quality experiment, things I have tested have not resulted in sudden explosions of nice new roots in badly affected plants).

Conclusions:

-imid is sufficient to control root aphids (especially
when you follow up with a secondary control method), especially at 40-50 mL/gal Bayer Complete Insect Killer.
Soooo..... I don't think this thread is as easy as root-aphid attack methods anymore... which is why I have been pushing for collectively sharing as much information about individual cases as possible.

RetroGrow said:
That's a shame. I am in the same boat. Plants not improving after treatment, despite no sign of any bugs. I believe something more is going on here, as mine only had a very few RAs. I'm thinking that these things transmit other diseases, perhaps pythium? I'm perplexed. Plants not drinking, and wilted. Tops still trying to grow, but bottoms are getting worse. I'm disgusted. $300 in seeds down the drain, and a month wasted. I'm afraid to even use my room again, as last 2 grows have been disasters. And I had sterilized everything with "physan 20", which is nasty stuff and supposed to do the trick. I know you won't want to use that
I'm besides myself with this crap, and really am out of ideas. These were looking fine a week ago, now disaster.

RetroGrow said:
Hey Goddess:
I feel your pain.
I tore my whole room down and performed autopsies on all 21 plants after getting too frustrated trying to save them. I am virtually certain that the RAs also transmitted some other infection, all the more reason to start over. When I pulled all the plants out of the pots, I only found 3 tanks and one flyer in 21 plants. That was after Imid treatment was done on them, although the pots were already wet when I drenched them, and I didn't wait for the others to die as I saw the plants were a lost cause....
Lost all my Cindy 99s and My AK47s......bummer.
As I've sterilized everything to the best of my ability, if this comes up again, I will change locations.
Good luck!

RetroGrow said:
...However, if it is "only" root aphids, then you can dip your cuts in an imid solution as described in the thread or using instructions on bottle. Check the photo in my album regarding what to buy (there are other options, but this works).
This can be extremely frustrating. Ruined my last 2 grows.
You are doing the right thing by trashing your plants and everything else (medium). Sterilize everything you have with physan 20. Vacuum and clean as best you can.
And I'm on the east coast too, so definitely not a regional problem. These things could come in soil or coco. No one knows for sure.
Good luck.
By the way, you can safely buy more seeds on the Seed Boutique. Haven't failed me yet.

RetroGrow said:
That's been my choice all along. It worked for me in a single application. But that was in dry coco with a plant that was drinking. The RAs were all killed, but the plant had to be destroyed later due to infectious agent. I examined the rootball carefully with a powerful loop, and with a microscope, and there wasn't a single insect of any kind living. I think that many times plants hit with these stop drinking (smaller plants), and then they become more difficult to treat when the medium is already wet.

RetroGrow said:
Simply put, that's incorrect. All my RAs were killed wit a single application of Imid. That was a heavy infestation in Coco. They don't die instantaneously, as they have to ingest sufficient amount before dying, and this takes time. Mine were all dead after a week. At first, when mine weren't all dead the first few days, I got a bit panicky. But patience is key. Also this is probably media dependent. I think it's easier to kill them in Coco. Just let the pot dry, and those plants are very thirsty. They suck up the drench immediately.I think this process is slower in soil, and slower still in hydro, as the plants are already hydrated, and won't absorb sufficient amounts as rapidly. I'm guessing a foliar spray will work better in hydro, as an addendum to adding it to the rez, as it will be absorbed into the plant immediately. Having said that, I don't do hydro, so haven't tested this theory, but farmers who have lots of acreage use foliar spray, and it works for them.
Botaniguard is a good second approach for those who don' want to introduce any chemicals, but it is much more expensive, and will take longer, with no guarantee of 100% success, which you need with RAs, or you could be battling them again. These RAs are so devastating to your plants, that I wanted to get rid of them as fast as possible. After using Bayer Advanced one time, which also has a contact killer in addition to systemic killer, I have not seen a single RA, or a single fungus gnat or springtail, and this is more than a year later.
Note: Imid has been used to kill fleas in dogs for decades, taken internally or applied to the skin in drops. The dogs are not hurt by this, so this pretty much confirms the safety of the product, IMO.

Anyone but me notice a little inconsistency?...
Was that 1 or 2 grows with RAs--both treated with HEAVY CHEMS?
Did your plants have "very few RAs"...or was it a "heavy infestation"?
Is the Bayer dosage 50ml or 15 ml?
Discovered zero RAs...or just 3 tanks and 1 flyer in the examined roots?
100% success (with dead plants?)--in my world if all my plants DIED AFTER TREATMENT, I would call that a FAILURE!

OK, Retro, your turn to point out my inconsistencies. Thanks!

Neo 420 · Mar 15, 2013

yerboyblue · Mar 15, 2013

So has anyone figured out how to train or breed lady bugs to dwell in soil yet? Fight Root Aphids with Root Lady Bugs. Lol

Kronikal_kiwi · Mar 16, 2013

The battle begins

The battle begins

Alright people,

So as I said in last nights post, I have been battling "fungus gnats" for a while, only to now discover they are RAs.

So last night I talked about the chemicals I would be looking at.

Someone said I should use Imidacloprid as they may be gnats, but I'm certain they're not gnats, as months of Vectobac and Nilnat has done nothing to curb them.

So I went down the Acephate path.

I purchased Yates Shield, which is supposed to be used as a spray, but Im using it as a drench, fingers crossed I dont kill my crop! It contains 45g/liter acephate and 8gm/liter myclobutanil. The Myclobutanil is of no use to me, but I couldn't be bothered finding a spray that was just acephate (there is one available in NZ but it is restricted for people with some sort of chemical certification. I researched myclobutanil, and it is a fungucide, it is also used in soil drenches, so it can't be too toxic to roots.

So tonight I started by filling a tub with the mixture, made at recommended spray strength (5 mils per liter), then, too prevent wasting too much chemical, I thoroughly watered all the plants until lots of run off occoured. After this I have placed them, two at a time, in the tub, and will leave them in there for 30-45 minutes per drench.

I HOPE this will kill all the little bastards!

Now...some questions....I hear people on here talking about reintroduction of ferts afterwards. Is there any method to do this? I know you are meant to leave it for a while to let the chemical work its magic, so I intend on leaving them for 2-3 days before starting with ferts again. Is this about right?

Thanks for any and all advice.

Fungus gnats or WINGED ROOT APHIDS???

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