Fungus gnats or WINGED ROOT APHIDS???

foomar · Mar 5, 2013

One way to make a better diagnosis is to use a proper optical microscope , they are visible at 100x and obvious at 150x through a basic binocular or zoom type.

Ex school or lab are often very cheap and high quality compared to modern build , but even a new nasty chinese one will do if needs must , most will take a camera with a little DIY or an adaptor.

Some turn up on fleabay real cheap , 1950,s and onwards Russian scopes offer excellent value and better optics than the chinese or Indian ones made now , those from Germany are mostly rebadged chinese at a higher price and best avoided.

If you have children , a decent quality microscope could be the best educational toy you could give , best present i ever had for sure.

hydrodreams · Mar 5, 2013

FoCo(No.Co) said:
Much earlier in the thread we identified multiple types of RAs. Just because you havent seen a big black one doesnt mean you dont have them. The fact that you see fliers infrequently makes me think that you do have aphids.

If you can catch a flier and look at it under a magnifying glass you can be sure, flying aphids are pretty unique looking if you can get a good peek at one.

Yes, I also still believe that I have them. I caught a flyer and whatched under a magnifying glass. They looked similar with the ones I saw here as far as I can remember.

The flyers are not fungus gnats. Thats for sure. Because I had them several times and they are bigger flyers look different and much more numerous once you have them.

Maybe I am lucky and I will catch one again.

Thanks so far

EclipseFour20 · Mar 5, 2013

Agree...mature RAs develop wings so they can "migrate" to another plant; some experts suggest it is part of their "survive or die" cycle. Almost in all incidents I have inquired, RAs and Fungus Gnats went hand in hand. Very, very few exceptions (yes there were some).

sheik_yerbouti · Mar 7, 2013

EclipseFour20 said:
Agree...mature RAs develop wings so they can "migrate" to another plant; some experts suggest it is part of their "survive or die" cycle. Almost in all incidents I have inquired, RAs and Fungus Gnats went hand in hand. Very, very few exceptions (yes there were some).

Will Root Aphids controls like Orthene and Spectracide with Triazicide or a pyrethrin based product get rid of gnats as well?

As you say Root Aphids and Gnats go hand in hand and I believe I have discovered both in my rooms now...

RetroGrow · Mar 7, 2013

sheik_yerbouti said:
Will Root Aphids controls like Orthene and Spectracide with Triazicide or a pyrethrin based product get rid of gnats as well?

As you say Root Aphids and Gnats go hand in hand and I believe I have discovered both in my rooms now...

Gnats are easy to control. Many products will kill them. One specifically for them is gnatrol. Another method is just to spread a layer of sand or diatomaceous earth on the surface of your pots. They can't deal with that.

EclipseFour20 · Mar 7, 2013

DE and Bacillus thuringiensis israelensis (aka BTI) are good controls for fungus gnats...but will not knock em down. For knock down you gotta get serious with a complete dunk. I would not use spectracide--half life thing, but pyrethrins seem to work rather well against fungus gnats--but, itself will not knock down RAs (gnats...maybe, if repeated within the larvae's cycle).

I never had a gnat infestation to warrant dunking my plants...but I did notice the Orthene + Riptide eliminated them 100% for the few plants that had em. My neighbor overwaters her garden plants...which I believe is the source of fungus gnats for me--so seeing a few here and there is not alarming.

Problem with DE is the effectiveness as a pesticide is reduced when the diatoms are moist...whereas BTI needs moisture to be effective. Check out Mosquito Bits (corncob bits with BTI...not the dunks) for a good affordable source of BTI. I mix 15ml of the bits with the potting soil at transplant...and again with my bacteria brew (15ml per gallon of water). Gnatrol...if you can find it is rather pricey, so I order Mosquito Bits through Amazon...30oz jar is $15 or so (order 2 for free shipping).

From their website....http://www.summitchemical.com/mosquito/mosquito-bits/, "The Mosquito Bits® are now labeled to control Fungus Gnats in plant beds or pots! Utilizing a similar mode of action for control of mosquito larvae, the Bits™, either sprinkled on the soils surface or mixed with potting soil prior to planting will kill fungus gnat larvae with the same safety and target specific control offered for mosquito larvae."

IMHO, if you add Mosquito Bits at every transplant, place the yellow sticky cards on every plant, do not overwater, then they will go away soon--without any chem poisons.

sheik_yerbouti · Mar 7, 2013

EclipseFour20 said:
DE and Bacillus thuringiensis israelensis (aka BTI) are good controls for fungus gnats...but will not knock em down. For knock down you gotta get serious with a complete dunk. I would not use spectracide--half life thing, but pyrethrins seem to work rather well against fungus gnats--but, itself will not knock down RAs (gnats...maybe, if repeated within the larvae's cycle).

I never had a gnat infestation to warrant dunking my plants...but I did notice the Orthene + Riptide eliminated them 100% for the few plants that had em. My neighbor overwaters her garden plants...which I believe is the source of fungus gnats for me--so seeing a few here and there is not alarming.

Problem with DE is the effectiveness as a pesticide is reduced when the diatoms are moist...whereas BTI needs moisture to be effective. Check out Mosquito Bits (corncob bits with BTI...not the dunks) for a good affordable source of BTI. I mix 15ml of the bits with the potting soil at transplant...and again with my bacteria brew (15ml per gallon of water). Gnatrol...if you can find it is rather pricey, so I order Mosquito Bits through Amazon...30oz jar is $15 or so (order 2 for free shipping).

From their website....http://www.summitchemical.com/mosquito/mosquito-bits/, "The Mosquito Bits® are now labeled to control Fungus Gnats in plant beds or pots! Utilizing a similar mode of action for control of mosquito larvae, the Bits™, either sprinkled on the soils surface or mixed with potting soil prior to planting will kill fungus gnat larvae with the same safety and target specific control offered for mosquito larvae."

IMHO, if you add Mosquito Bits at every transplant, place the yellow sticky cards on every plant, do not overwater, then they will go away soon--without any chem poisons.

As always Eclipse you so above and beyond any expectations I would have for a thorough and informative answer to a question. Thankyou!... :thank you:

Curious to know why you wouldn't use the Spectracide? So far its the only really reasonably priced effective product I have been able to order to Canada along with Orthene. Was planning on using it along with Orthene for a dunk to replace the Pyrethrin based product in an effective mix for eradication.

I could get my hands on some MGK Pyganic which is a concentrated pyrethrin without the PGO. Haven't inquired about $ yet but it's from the same distributor that only had 10kg bags of Met 52 for $650. I'm highly doubting the affordability of it.

Granger2 · Mar 7, 2013

Green Mountain Harvest
214.335.9496

They have MET52 granules 1 kilo [2.2 lb] for $111. shipped. Good service. This is enough to treat about 2 cu. meters heavily.

Best info I've found: http://www.roffeybrothers.co.uk/leaflets 3p/Met52brochure.pdf

BTW, RA's don't even notice BTi. No effect. Good Luck. -granger

EclipseFour20 · Mar 7, 2013

Sheik--Thanks for the kind words. The half life for Gamma-Cyhalothrin (synthetic pyrethrin) in soil is measured to be 4-8 weeks...whereas the half life for pyrethrin in soil is 2 weeks. But I guess if you have no choice, synthetic pyrethrin products are better alternatives to some of the chems out there.

Half life issues...remember,
1 half-life = 50% degraded
2 half-lives = 75% degraded
3 half-lives = 88% degraded
4 half-lives = 94% degraded
5 half-lives = 97% degraded

Now, imidacloprid half life ranges 200-900 days in soil...or how many years/decades will it take before it is 97% degraded?

Minister · Mar 7, 2013

hydrodreams said:
Yes, I also still believe that I have them. I caught a flyer and whatched under a magnifying glass. They looked similar with the ones I saw here as far as I can remember.

The flyers are not fungus gnats. Thats for sure. Because I had them several times and they are bigger flyers look different and much more numerous once you have them.

Maybe I am lucky and I will catch one again.

Thanks so far

This is what mine looked like as fliers.

Not so many that they are noticed and identified as a threat, but seen often when plants have been fucked over and you come to realize it´s best to start over.
Never saw any large specimen in the medium (coco) resembling those commonly seen above ground in outdoor gardens.

Saw translucent fast moving punktuationmarks only.

hydrodreams · Mar 7, 2013

Minister said:
[...!Saw translucent fast moving punktuationmarks only.

I cant find the flyers anymore. Before they appeared when i handwatered my 1x1m beds (soil) with my sprinkler. But yesterday I caught one of the white/translucent ones and watched him under the magnifying glass: Very fast moving, 0.5mm long,6 legs, 2 antennas on the head, rather white than translucent.

I just hope its no other pest and I am in the believe its root aphids. But so far, I didn't read anywhere that there is an other pest that can be wrongly diagnosed as root aphids....

Edit: Minister, you got rid of them with met52, right?

hydrodreams · Mar 7, 2013

Anyway, I had completely yellow fan-leafs here and there and some plants looked rife to be harvested 2 weeks before they were supposed to be harvested. The yield was terrible (but this can always have other reasons, especially when you buy the clones).

But the completely yellow leaves (rather whet than dry) and the prematurity are root aphid- typical...

So I think the chance is higher that I have them that I have something else.

Granger2 · Mar 7, 2013

> Half life issues...remember,
> 1 half-life = 50% degraded
> 2 half-lives = 75% degraded
> 3 half-lives = 88% degraded
> 4 half-lives = 94% degraded
> 5 half-lives = 97% degraded

Eclipse4,
Thanks for the reminder. Often people seem to think that half-life means it's gone. -granger

S4vvy · Mar 7, 2013

To kill these bastards i flooded my trays with Merit 75 @1TSP Per 10 Gallons. Right after that i set off an insect bomb that contained Nylar. Done deal.

Thanks to greyskull and krunchbubble for the advice

sheik_yerbouti · Mar 8, 2013

EclipseFour20 said:
Sheik--Thanks for the kind words. The half life for Gamma-Cyhalothrin (synthetic pyrethrin) in soil is measured to be 4-8 weeks...whereas the half life for pyrethrin in soil is 2 weeks. But I guess if you have no choice, synthetic pyrethrin products are better alternatives to some of the chems out there.

Half life issues...remember,
1 half-life = 50% degraded
2 half-lives = 75% degraded
3 half-lives = 88% degraded
4 half-lives = 94% degraded
5 half-lives = 97% degraded

Now, imidacloprid half life ranges 200-900 days in soil...or how many years/decades will it take before it is 97% degraded?

From what I understand Pyrethrin and synthetic Pyrethroid are not systemic and have little harm on mammals. They have been linked to have some carcinogenic properties but only in extremely high dosages. Unless I'm missing something I don't really see the danger in having one of these products lingering in your soil.

Am I wrong?

Has anyone used Endeavor? Looks like a local store here has it for me. Looks like another synthetic Pyrethrin with the active ingredient Pymetrozine. Contact killer but not systemic, will be using unless advised otherwise.

EclipseFour20 · Mar 8, 2013

Two reasons quickly come to mind Sheik---
1. Accumulation of active & inert ingredients. With long half-lives, it can be excessive and experts suggest this can contribute to pesticide resistance of the active ingredient.
2. Smoke report. In my experience--herb chemically treated can have a noticeable defect in overall quality (snap, crackle & pop...nasty aftertaste...dark ash, etc)

Also, certain plants are capable of extracting heavy metals and other substances from contaminated soils...and cannabis is one of these plants. The 64 million dollar question is: on day of harvest, how much of the pesticide's active ingredient remains in the plant? Certain active ingredients use microbial activity to break it down (like Orthene)...and others use "time" to break it down.

Finally...the organic side of me says, use no "synthetic"...if there is an workable "organic" option. (Which is why I use Orthene--nothing "organic" has assuredly knocked down RAs for me).

Cheers!

Ranger · Mar 8, 2013

EclipseFour20 said:
Two reasons quickly come to mind Sheik---
1. Accumulation of active & inert ingredients. With long half-lives, it can be excessive and experts suggest this can contribute to pesticide resistance of the active ingredient.
2. Smoke report. In my experience--herb chemically treated can have a noticeable defect in overall quality (snap, crackle & pop...nasty aftertaste...dark ash, etc)

Also, certain plants are capable of extracting heavy metals and other substances from contaminated soils...and cannabis is one of these plants. The 64 million dollar question is: on day of harvest, how much of the pesticide's active ingredient remains in the plant? Certain active ingredients use microbial activity to break it down (like Orthene)...and others use "time" to break it down.

Finally...the organic side of me says, use no "synthetic"...if there is an workable "organic" option. (Which is why I use Orthene--nothing "organic" has assuredly knocked down RAs for me).

Cheers!

have you tried the mosquito dunks for the RA's?

i'm currently giving them a try to see how they do.

EclipseFour20 · Mar 8, 2013

BTI...active ingredient in dunks has no effect on RAs. That has been covered a few times in this long ass thread.

Mosquito Bits (made by the same people) is easier and cheaper to work than Mosquito Dunks. I buy 30oz container of the Bits on Amazon for $15...get 2 for free shipping.

hydrodreams · Mar 8, 2013

Eclipse, what is your experience with met52? Did you ever try it?

Hydrosreams

EclipseFour20 · Mar 9, 2013

Sorry, no experience with Met52; could not find it locally. I understand that fungus is effective as a control for RAs--but so so in knocking them down. Others that use it may have better first hand knowledge!

Fungus gnats or WINGED ROOT APHIDS???

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