Fungus gnats or WINGED ROOT APHIDS???

spleebale said:

B)I like Bayer Complete Insect Killer - it has B-cyfluthrin in it which is also a contact-killer and it has not seemed to harm plants or (presumably) microbiology in either soil, coco or hydro (as I have had healthy results while using it preventative). I use anywhere from about 20-50 mL/gal with it (usually about 40 mL/gal - which equals about 20 mL/gal of the Tree and Shrub 1.47% imid products). I think that DigitalHippys recommendation is good as well, since you should not need as much on really small/young plants.

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That's been my choice all along. It worked for me in a single application. But that was in dry coco with a plant that was drinking. The RAs were all killed, but the plant had to be destroyed later due to infectious agent. I examined the rootball carefully with a powerful loop, and with a microscope, and there wasn't a single insect of any kind living. I think that many times plants hit with these stop drinking (smaller plants), and then they become more difficult to treat when the medium is already wet.

Spleebale: Do you have me on 'ignore'?

Pyganic II @ 30ml/gallon - along with Azatrol. Try it.

i eradicated mine with repeated thorough foliage and root drenches with pyrethrum its been 2 months since my last treatment and no aphids anymore. i think where people often go wrong when treating these is not making sure every square inch of plant and medium get a full dose of pyrethrum this has to be done 3 or 4 times at 5 day intervals to make sure all eggs and larvae are killed

yep that bayer complete is the shit, killed my root aphids and thrips (also got PM that i'm dealing with now) that i got from a dispensary i will never visit again.

bicycle racer said:

i eradicated mine with repeated thorough foliage and root drenches with pyrethrum its been 2 months since my last treatment and no aphids anymore. i think where people often go wrong when treating these is not making sure every square inch of plant and medium get a full dose of pyrethrum this has to be done 3 or 4 times at 5 day intervals to make sure all eggs and larvae are killed

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Somebody give this man (woman..?) an award.

Norkali said:

Somebody give this man (woman..?) an award.

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Haha exactly! You have to be anal-retentive with pests to completely get rid of them...not lackadaisical spaying here and there when you think of it.

I would like to compile a chart/board of what has worked and on what type of RA and with what applications so that we can try to tie-down some correlation.

If you have done well in the battle with RAs (has been weeks since infestation, plants are doing well or finished well already), PLEASE PM me (or post on my message board) what type of RA you seem to have and what worked (product, dosage, application methodology).

I will compile all the data into one post so that we can see "the score"and see what methods are working against which RAs. For the sake of discussion lets include the fast-moving flying creatures that I labeled "Root Aphid" in Peregrinus's photo and let's make that a 5th type.

For memory, the types are: "crabs," "Tank Beetles," "Micros" "Red-asses" and "Fast-fliers" (the yet unconfirmed "Root Aphid" from PG's pic)


However, it seems at least that "Tank Beetles" are clearly the largest, roundest and most-noticeable and classically aphid-looking (especially comparing to winged versions of other RAs). The "crabs" have a very standard aphid-look as well but are significantly smalle (only adults are very easily spotted) and MUCH less round and seem to often come in red and/or green with black - juveniles are TEENY, have fewer legs, are more transparent and look much more like crabs than aphids. "Red-asses" have cornicles (tail-pipes) that seem to be less conspicuous than those of the crabs (the cornicles of red-asses seem to be bent against their bodies instead of sticking out in parallel like on the crabs) and the asses (on adults) are clearly rosy, where crabs seem to be colored differently (see first post) - though the "crab" in the pic has a red ass, they can be colored very differently with green and black on different parts of their body; crabs do not all have red-asses. Then there are the MICROS - you should identify your type as Micros if it is almost impossible to see one of them alone with the naked eye - even on a solid background. You will not see juvenile micros with the naked eye and you will probably not EVER notice Micros in the medium (soil, coco etc) until they are swarming so the soil is essentially moving. They seem to be a solid to translucent creamy-color and not vary much. As far as we know so far, micros do not have a winged stage. If the largest among your RAs can only barely be seen, you probably have micros.

Thanks, folks!

UPDATE: "Psulloxera" clearly has 8 legs - I don't know how I missed this while compiling and re-compiling that first post, but it was right there in front of our faces the whole time: "Psulloxera" is a mite of some sort (probably a predatory mite); as it is clearly an arachnid, it is officially removed from the Root Aphid discussion (assuming it is not a root-feeder and plays no role in our studies). I am removing it from the first post since it is a large picture and takes up valuable real-estate.

bicycle racer said:

i eradicated mine with repeated thorough foliage and root drenches with pyrethrum its been 2 months since my last treatment and no aphids anymore. i think where people often go wrong when treating these is not making sure every square inch of plant and medium get a full dose of pyrethrum this has to be done 3 or 4 times at 5 day intervals to make sure all eggs and larvae are killed

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Yep....... and 4 weeks later after a HUGE pyganic drench, spraying pyganic, diatemacues earth, and repeated neem oil sprayings...... the RA's EXPLODED out of nowhere.


Shits not working like a charm for me lol ...... and I am thorough and exacting in dealing with this as well as the cleanliness and preventatives of the grow room itself.


Smiley

Smiley - glad to hear from you again; sorry to hear your difficulties. We need to figure out culturing nematodes! It can't be that hard!

Also: this is why I am trying to compile info on the types and what has/has not worked for each RA type. Hopefully this will give us a better understanding of how to control each type.

Whitefly aphids?

Whitefly aphids?

Great thread, wot? I got a way bigger handle on this situation than I had yesterday; I don't know my bugs.

Found this critter on a clone in soil and suspect it is related to the other, (tiny tiny aphids?) on the flowering plant roots which were showing what I thought was a mag deficiency. So some clones don't have the aphids yet, but the older ones, 2-3 weeks old, do, and the 6 flowering plants have them too. They appear on the surface, with magnifier, immediately after watering.

I have Botanicare ES on the way and bought some Ortho Max 1.43% imid and Ortho ecosense insecticidal soap spray. Plan is to use the Botanicare on flowering plants, (hour soaking,) and imid and soap spray on vegging plants, soaking also. Multiple times within several days of each soaking. And spray with ecosense. Don't have Tanglefoot, for stems and pot rims, but do have vaseline. Sticky cards are now up too in veg room and flowering room and clone room. Could they be jumping around from pot to pot? I suspect so. If so, all current plants and any future plant get a soaking, right?

Was hoping to re-veg the flowering plants, THC Bomb, cause they're so good, but so infected. Before infestation, (from two gift clones, thanks pard,) I re-vegged the Neville's Haze plant I had, (a great mother,) that's where the clones come from. All in soil. An aphid and insecticide weakened plant may not re-veg. What about cloning the THC Bomb in full flower? 5 weeks. Never tried that. Thanks for any help.

Answering user "Bouquet"

Answering user "Bouquet"

Bouquet: The bigger critter looks like a cricket or some other larger insect pest - it may be taking chunks out of leaves and spreading disease but is not likely part of an insect infestation in your garden.

The smaller things do not appear to be aphids but it is hard to tell - another photo may help. They may be thrip larvae or some other type of larvae and very likely are similar vectors of disease and root-damagers. Identifying just what they are is an important first step, as some chems work on some pests and not at all on others. If they are feeding on roots, imid is a pretty reliable option, though. Botanigard should also be effective on most soft-shelled insectsm which they appear to be - it is just super-pricey. If they are insect larvae, Bti is usually the cheapest and least harmful (to plants and people and the ecosystem) option. If you get another pic up I can give you a better assessment of what they are.

As to the treatments and everything: be careful! Killing the insects (in my experience) is easier than saving damaged roots, and it is easy to make roots worse with treatments (if you are going to leave them literally soaking in water, I would set up a makeshift DWC with airstones or w/ a good water-pump water-fall effect. If they sit in water w/out good dissolved oxygen for very long at all it will exacerbate root die-off and invite root pathogens to take over, so even if you win the battle against the bugs, you lose the battle of saving your plants (as MANY have done so far!). Even watering as heavily as you need to to get thorough drench-coverage seems to make the ladies unhappy in soil. So... be careful!

What most people have found so far is this: Treating plants that are badly infected, have excessive root damage, are continually losing leaves/having progressive chlorosis and necrosis and/or are not drinking water is an up-hill battle that most end up wishing they had given up on. Treating healthy plants that are still drinking, making forward progress and otherwise are still healthy has great results and as long as you stay with it (more than one treatment/control solution) they can easily have a very normal harvest, even if they started out with bad root pests. The bottom line: if the problem is really bad already when you catch it, or if plants are not going anywhere a week or more after treatment or the symptoms/issues are getting worse, it is almost always a better idea to start over. Hope that helps.

Also: it is also hard to tell, but that glistening brown "sliminess" looks VERY similar to what I was seeing, which I came to believe is Rhizoctonia root rot (likely Rhizoctonia solani). It is super-invasive and really fucks plant root growth over, even if you kill every insect. If you plan to use H2O2, plan to use HIGH doses, as it seemed that anything less than 20 mL/gal (35% H2O2) did nothing to it - note that these high of levels will kill most beneficials AND damage roots, as will most chemicals used to kill it. It seems like the only approach against the stuff is to go super-gnarly up-front and kill as much of it as possible (H202, bleach, chloramine [DM Zone], and iodine are the nicer approaches to this - fungicides are the nasty side... see my fungus posts for fungicide info). Then, once you have done a nice, through killing, you have to apply beneficials that will colonize the root zone (thoroughly rinsing if you used something that will kill them) and ward-off the Rhizoctonia (which is still around) ALL while maintaining little to no bugs on your roots. -It's not a pretty task. It can be very costly, take a lot of effort and time and still have seriously sub-par results (never really rejuvenating the plant to take care of itself, you have to nurse-it-along). Sooo..... bottom line with this nasty bitch is the same as with RAs: if the damage is bad, roots look ugly, plants don't look perky and don't want to drink or regenerate their roots or grow new roots- it is DEFINITELY best to start over! Everyone hates to hear it, but you will hate battling Rhizoctonia (once it has taken hold) far worse. If you prevent it from the beginning, then just like the RAs and other pests, it is reasonably kept at bay.

Let it be clear that keeping root pests away and keeping root pathogens away go HAND-IN-HAND and can be easily done if you start early - once either has taken hold BOTH will take hold and fighting them is a losing war! (Fungus gnats being the one exception as the larvae do not necessarily feed on roots - no where near as much as RAs, their population does not explode as easily and they can be easily taken out with Bti)

Something stood out to me while searching for other organic pest controls


http://www.arbico-organics.com/product/Organic-JMS-Stylet-Oil/organic-insecticides-farms

Organic JMS Stylet Oil

Organic JMS Stylet Oil is excellent as a fungicide for powdery mildew, as an insecticide and for virus control! It will kill powdery mildew on contact as well as prevent development of mildew for 10 to 14 days, depending on the usage rate. It will control mites, whitefly and leafminer, as well as aphid-transmitted virus diseases. This year-round spray oil is OMRI listed and EPA registered; it can be used in greenhouses, on field crops, or on fruit trees.

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No photos today

No photos today

Spleebale, Been trying to upload photos for some time, no luck. Anonymouse wants me to buy their VIP service. I'll keep trying. Plus it's way too hard to log in here. Maybe Anonymouse again.

So I'll deep six the flowering plants, (maybe clone one or two anyway,) and soak the vegging plants and see what happens with regular maintenance. Thanks for the information. I'll put it to use.

Well I tried again and they let me upload two, but not three, photos. I took the photos just after spraying with water because that's when they zoom around. Hope you can identify them because that's about the best photo I can get. They are present by the hundreds in each plant in the flower room and by the dozens in the veg room.

Well I just gave each 10 gallon pot3 gallons of pyganic at 70ml/gallon

I then filled my pump sprayer, and sprayed the the entire plants. the flower room walls and floor and then misted the air with a fine mist spray bottle..... locked the door and wait.


I mixed up the pyganic and walked away and when I got back there were 4 winged aphids dead in the mix...... where do they come from? I have seen no fliers..... then they end up right in the tank? You'd think there would have to be a swarm to cause that.


I will continue to spray the top of the soil with the pyganic and continue neem oil spray tomorrow.

The only way an organic gardener can really get on top of these is IPM and spending the money to do at least 3 drenches a week apart.

I will be planting new mom plants when the cuts root and those moms may be treated with IMID so they can grow a month and then give new clones. I'll throw out the imid moms.

By then I should be getting somewhere.

BTW the clear bodied one you have a pic of a few pages back...... yep, found one and it is twice the size of the black winged root aphids.

So far I think 3 diff fliers and 3 diff crawlers. Different types that is.

Bouquet:
Looks like thrip larvae. Do you have little bugs on the (underside of) leaves? -Long and skinny, some with wings, others without?

Bti should kill thrip larvae - the liquid versions work the best - Microbe-Lift BMC is probably the best product for being inexpensive and effective (especially for smaller gardens - bigger gardens may want to order liquid Gnatrol or Vectobac). Apply Bti with each watering or at least every other day for a week and it should take out all the larvae - spray the leaves with spinosad (can be purchased in commercial insecticides at the Home Despot and others - Monterrey Garden Insect Spray etc). Spray spionsad on leaves during the same period as applying the Bti and you should get rid of them.

spinosad for thrips

GeorgeSmiley said:

I will be planting new mom plants when the cuts root and those moms may be treated with IMID so they can grow a month and then give new clones. I'll throw out the imid moms.

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Good idea, however, I would not throw out the imid moms. Leave them as a "Trojan Horse" type of deal. They will go on killing as long as you give them a "booster" once in a while. They should help to break the life cycle of any flyers that might arise. This is how it's done with dogs. Imid is the stuff given to dogs to kill fleas. If you have multiple dogs, only one needs the treatment, as it will be enough to break the life cycle of them all.
IMHO.

Thanks

Thanks

spleebale, thanks for the information. Nothing on the leaves. Whatever they are, they are dead bugs walking. If the right one don't get them then the left one will. I'm certain that I found enough info here to deal with it. I'll let you know what happens.

It's been a few days since I discovered my root aphid outbreak.

The plants were in 4" pots, so when i potted up I basically buried all the bugs. I then immediately watered just the center 4" area with 5ml/gallon Imid, soaking just that area. I can say that the original 4" root balls were totally soaked.

After a few days there is no sign whatsoever of any bugs, but I wonder if they're deep in the big pots planning their revenge, so I plan to give one feeding when the centers dry out, and then hit them all with a full saturation watering of 20ml/gallon (1.47%) and I hope that will be the end of the infestation. So far so good!

take no risks with root.a's re-treat or possibly lose your grow.