Can`t get rid of problems, can anyone help please?

Hi, I`ve been trying to sort some serious issues out with my grow (here http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=138214 ) during the past couple of grows and despite the good effort of some good people I just cant get on top of it.

Its very puzzling as I grow a couple of the same strain very nearby with no issues, and a friend nearby grows them very well.

I`ve been growing 20yrs, 1st 12 or so in hydro before switching to coco 6-8 years ago.

The first signs I have of any problems is in the rooting up the clones in jiffy pucks, as they go very light in the centre of the top leaves and go an overall limey colour. The lightening evens out as they`re potted up into beer cups but they continue to be limey. Throughout the above stage they`re under a 250watt envirolight.

Sorry the pics off my phone, my camera is broken, but you can see some of these clones are very light in the centre

Then, stupidly, I re-pot from beer cups straight to 3gal pots (yeah very stupid) then within a week they start to go yellow rapidly between the veins of the leaves (This may be down to overwatering due to the coco in the large pots stays very wet.).

They looked like this a couple of weeks ago

I after a week or so I re-potted them down a size to 7ltr pots to give the roots a chance to develop well, this was done after discecting a couple of pots from the last grow and finding there were little or no roots in the centre of the lower pot, the final size pots were 7ltr, and changing up to 3 gal pots this grow. I let them dry out a lot more between feeds, changing from feeding til run off every day, or 2 days at the most, to feeding every few days, as and when the pots are light. They improved and the yellowing between the veins stopped progressing.

I intend potting back upto 3 gal pots in a few days, there are plenty of roots at the bottom of the 7ltr pots now.

Here they are now,

The sodium lights dont allow the colour of the plants to come out properly so I took a couple out of the grow space to show in more detail how they`re suffering.

There are rusty marks going along the main central vein of some of the older leaves, notice the horrible limey colour, also lacking any lustre and sheen to the leaves,

Also there are aome leaves that have gone very dark green towards the tip ends, I think this photo shows this

Many of the leaf stems are very a dark purple/red colour and you can see on this photo that the new leaves are contorting a bit at the ends, kind of twisted, but they seem to unfold themselves eventually

Hope those photo`s are detailed enough.

The plants` growth is slowed down.

I use Canna Pro Coco (fine grade pre treated) Atami B`cuzz Coco A+B, Rhizotonic and Atazyme.

I`m feeding them at Ph6.0-6.2 9tested by both meter and liquid drip colour test, I started out on EC12, then stepped up to EC15, but I thought that too strong and fed last time with EC10. They`re being trained (LST) and on a 20/4 light cycle vegging prior to going under a sgrog screen. I`ve always used tap water, Ec03 ph7(ish) but have considered that in the equation and for the last couple of feeds I`ve used bottled mineral water with an EC01 value and ph of 6.4. I`ve bought an RO filter and plan to fit it this week and switch to that. I doubt that can be the problem though as I said the water around here works fine.

The last two crops have been pitiful bringing in less than 30oz where I`d normally expect 60-65oz and its properly getting me down, I mean I`m quite resilient and an optomistic type, but this is getting to be a very depressing scenario.

The last two grows have been similarly affected by the interveinal yellowing early on in veg, only for it to come back 2-3 weeks into flower. I know that sounds like a mag issue, but I`ve tried treating for that with no results. Its worth mentioning that the nutrients I use have adequate amounts of Cal and Mag.

As I say, a friend of mine has great success with this same stock plant and I grow these two in a scrog very nearby, I`m certain the water supply is the same

Can anyone put me out of my misery, I really do need the help and I`d smoke a huge huge blunt soaked in the finest BHO in anyone`s honour if they can put me in the right direction with these plants.

Thanks T

I think those big leaves with the lightening between veins is Mg def. I thin the top growth having a hard time is from a Ca def. Probably a few others too like sulfur etc.. Cal mag defs come from low pH in the medium unless you are just underfeeding them.
It's not the pH you give them, it's the pH of your medium after nutes accumulate. Of course with newly repotted plants you wouldn't think there'd be time for nute buildup.
Maybe i'm no help.

hazy said:

It's not the pH you give them, it's the pH of your medium after nutes accumulate. Of course with newly repotted plants you wouldn't think there'd be time for nute buildup.
Maybe i'm no help.

Click to expand...

Yeah, my thoughts too mate ;-)

How long has this problem been going on? Last three grows
Are you growing in a PVC grow tent? (example: Hydrohut or any other non brand tents) No, Grow space is a 4mx3m aprox room
What system are you running? (DWC? Ebb flow? Aero? Water Farm? Flood Tables? and so on...) Recirculating drip fed pots, though they`ve been hand watered thus far in this grow.
What STRAIN are you growing? Cheese
What was the establishing technique? (Were the seed or clone?) clones
What is the age of your plants? 4 weeks (since clones were rooted and potted into beer cups)
How long have they been in there mixture they are in now?(coco,soiless etc..) Its new fresh coco 1st time in use.
How tall are the plants? 8-10 inches (They`ve been trained (LST) to be short and bushy, but growth is slow)
What PHASE are the plants in? (seedling, vegetative or flower) are the plants in? vegetative
What Technique are you using? they want to be sgrog`rs when they grow up. Scrog to be
What substrate/medium are you using?(Hydroton, RockWool etc.) Jiffy puck`s for rooting clones, then 100% coco (Cana Professional), last grow I went with 70/30 coco/hydroton with a layer of hydroton at the bottom of pots to help drainage. (I considered this part of my problems and decided on straight coco this time around
What is the Water temperature? house room temp
What color are your roots? White? Brown? Are your roots slimy? White, they look good
What Nutrient's are you using?(If growing soiless) Atami B`cuzz cocoA+B along with Cannas Rhizotonic and Atami`s Atazyme
How much of each nutrient are you using with how much water? *Knowing the brand is very helpful* around 1ml of A and B per litre at this stage
How often are you feeding? (If using soiless) was every or every other day, but now I`m letting them dry out a fair amount between feeds as I feel the constant wetness of the medium was causing some issues
How often are you giving nutrients? (If using soiless) every feed, though I`m considering a plain ph`d water flush very soon
If flowering, when did you switch over to using Bloom nutrients? N/A
What order are you mixing your nutrients? (example: veg nutes 1st, bloom 2nd ect) N/A
What is the TDS/EC/PPM you are using? EC10, has been EC12 and one feed with EC15
What is the pH of the "Tank"? Ph6.0
Are you sure your calibration is correct on your equiptment? Ph measured with pen and liquid drip colour kit, EC meter is cal`d regularly
When was your last watering? 2 days ago
What is your water temps? House room temperature
When was your last feeding change? (ie. grow-bloom-micro-additional) N/A
How often do you clean your system: example: Flush out water replace with clean water and nutrients? Mixing nutrients 24 hrs before use and hand watering thus far
What size bulb are you using? 3x600watt Sodiums
What is the distance to the canopy? 24 inches
What is your RH Factor(Relative Humidity)? between 35 and 48%
What is the canopy temperature? 85f
What is the Day/Night Temp? (Include flucutaion range) Not sure, I`ll check
What is the current Air Flow? (cfm etc.) Dunno, I use a 4inch and a 5 inch inline turbine fans connected to carbon filters
Tell us about your ventilation, intake exhaust and when its running and not running ? Fans run 24/7, inlet is passive through a door, the 2 extrectors are taken straight out into the attic space
Is the fan blowing directly at plants? very lightly
Is your water HARD or SOFT? Hard
What water are you using? Reverse Osmosis (RO)? Tap? Bottled? Well water? Distilled? Mineral Water? Been using tap water, EC03 ph 7ish, considered this as part of my problems and have used bottled mineral water EC01 ph6.4 for the last 2 feeds and have just bought a 125GPD RO filter to make the switch to RO water, hopefully this week at some point
Are you using water from a water softener? No
Has plant been recently pruned, cloned off of or pinched? No, but have been applying LST to pre train for the scrog screen
Have any pest chemicals been used? If so, What and When? None
Are plant's infected with pest's? Nope

Anything else please ask.

Thanks, Toke ;-)

Colour loss from the outer edges in is under feeding

Colour loss from the inner edges out is over feeding

General lack of colour is over watering

IMHO ...... I get this sometimes with coco

When you take a clone out the pot is the base sodden or nice and airy?

Hey Tokesome,
Your other grow...the scrog, does that one also use the exact same pots? I seem to recall that they were designed for one thing but you were using them for another. Could you give us more details on that?

If I were facing this situation...I'd be making large sweeping changes. You're doing a recirculating system with a media that does better in run-to-waste. So I'd go run-to-waste. And if that doesn't do it...try another media. Do a dirt run to see if it's the coco.

Sometimes minor tweaks are needed...but you've already sacrificed pounds of potential yield. I think it's time to consider major action. IMHO
Cheers,
ET

Hey Bush Doc, the pots are now dry and airy now I`m leaving longer before feeds, prior to me changing the feeding regime a couple of weeks back they were getting and staying soggy.

NNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOO. . . . . . dont say such things ET. . . . . .coco is good. . . . . coco is good. . . . . coco is good. . . . .lol, nah I appreciate what you`re saying but I like coco, dont fancy soil or hydro again. I think its more likely that I`m a total dimwit and messing up here, than it is down to the Canna coco, I use the same in the little scrog, my mates all use it. I`d be more likely to give up on the strain, but if others locally are doing ok, in fact well, I`m sure it can be sorted. I`m in this far with them so committed to seeing it through with the best possible results, hopefully with some help and insight from these pages.

Yeah half the pots are 3 gal buckets and half the pots designed to grow weed in and 12 liter. The pots in my little scrog are in the 3gal buckets.

Toke ;-)

T,
OK...I get the picture. It's coco all the way. But there's still lots of variation within coco. People use coco like a soil replacement...and that seems to be the direction that you're going. And the other extreme is to use it totally as a hydro media watering several times a day.

I think you'd be happier using your coco as a hydro media. You would be much more likely to get the yield your looking for.

The coco manufacturers are recognising this and even Canna (I just found out) has introduced a coarser coco for hydro use. So consider the coarser coco and back to more frequent waterings if this crop is disappointing.
ET

addendum: Have you used a humic/fulvic acid additive? This is an area where I'm still learning...but I understand that they can play a role in nutrient utilization. I've used rare earth but never a more specific humic additive.

EvilTwin said:

T,
OK...I get the picture. It's coco all the way. But there's still lots of variation within coco. People use coco like a soil replacement...and that seems to be the direction that you're going. And the other extreme is to use it totally as a hydro media watering several times a day.

I think you'd be happier using your coco as a hydro media. You would be much more likely to get the yield your looking for.

The coco manufacturers are recognising this and even Canna (I just found out) has introduced a coarser coco for hydro use. So consider the coarser coco and back to more frequent waterings if this crop is disappointing.
ET

addendum: Have you used a humic/fulvic acid additive? This is an area where I'm still learning...but I understand that they can play a role in nutrient utilization. I've used rare earth but never a more specific humic additive.

Click to expand...

Yeah thanks ET, I always used coco in the hydro fashion until this problem arose and found they were too wet. I`m hoping that once the roots are established in the 3 gal pots that I`ll be able to feed them till run off once a day, maybe stepping up to twice a day if they drink it up at a reasonable rate. I`ll also fit wicks to the bottom of each pot to try and avoid the soggy bottoms.

I`m looking into the possibility of a run to waste set up, but not sure I can manage this without a lot of manual feeding.

No I`ve never used humic acid, unless there happens to be any in the B`cuzz coco stimulator and bloom stimulator that I used in my last grow. I`m not planning on using these this grow.

Toke

If you still have a clone or a small plant you haven't transplanted, try taking that plant and mixing a few cups of worm castings into your coco, then transplant the plant into that mix.
Then grow that plant side by side to the rest and see if you still have problem.

Tokesome said:

Hey Bush Doc, the pots are now dry and airy now I`m leaving longer before feeds, prior to me changing the feeding regime a couple of weeks back they were getting and staying soggy.
Toke ;-)

Click to expand...

When they're soggy it kills the roots so uptake is reduced, hence pale colour

Why are they in such big pots?

I use 3.4 or 6 litre pots, I don't see the point of going bigger unless you're growing trees and have the time for a long veg .... 3.4 pots give 2 - 3 oz/pot, 6 litre pots give 4 - 7oz average for me around a 600

I use run to waste, which once set up with drippers is a breeze to maintain

Good Luck
BD

Yeah, with coco, especially with anything still growing, it's best to let them get very dry so they produce a better root ball. Then water a little and see how they look. When they are overwatered they take up less food, when underwatered they'll suck up more nutes. I'd grab a bottle of Technaflora MagiCal, good calmag and is potent stuff, and drop your ph just a hair more (5.8-6.1) and see if that helps your N uptake too.

Hey WHobdobe, no I`ve no other spare plants mate.

Hey Bush and Lazy. Yeah I`m learning a different way of feeding, but think I may have overdone the drying out on some of them. Many pots are quite light today so I`m about to give them a weak EC09, with rhizotonic and atazyme @ ph5.8. I ran out of bottled water and still awaiting a tap before I can fit my RO unit. The water that I mixed the nutrients in today was 60/40 tap/bottled.

Lazy, I dare not start adding Calmag to the mix as I`m not at all certain whats causing it. If and when I switch to 100% RO water I`d certainly consider it tho. I do have a full bottle of "Calmax". I was considering doing a couple of feeds to specific plants and see if it makes any difference, but my nutrients have good portions of both Cal and Mg and I wouldn`t know why exactly I was doing it so figured it best not to wade in and cause further damage.

Bush, I`m going to scrog these and veg them till they`re filling a 2x3meter screen, the roots are vigerous in this plant if they`re treated right and I figure more roots=more bud, damn stupid of me to go from beer cups straight to 3 gal pots only to realise my mistake and repot down to 7ltr pots before going to the final 3 gal pots.

The roots at the bottom of the pots look thick juicy and white, cant figure out why they look so crappy above.

I`m trying to look at all the evidence and come up with something. The plants in the little 2 plant scrog are doing great, plants to be proud of. Here they`re not. So that rules the plants out as being duff. I cant figure it out past there, everything else is done the same other than some inadvertent difference in feeding regime, which is why I`ve looked closely at it. I may have overdone it the opposite way and got some too dry, but am now on top of it and paying close attention to the pots weight and wet it accordingly. The water supply should be the same being only a matter of 100s of yds between grows unless the pipe work here is dodgy in which case the RO filter should overcome it. I do know the EC readings for both grow`s water supply reads exactly the same.

There is nothing much different with my plants today, neither better nor worse. The rusting that was developing quickly seems to have abated, could it be caused so quickly by drying the pots out too much between a couple of feeds I wonder??

Here`s a couple of pics of my 2 plant scrog, one from above the screen and one from below, you can see despite the sodiums on and taken with my phone that they`re doing just fine. Puzzling eh?



Sure hope I can pull this all around.

Thanks, Toke

Hey Tokesome! Sorry took me so long to post; holidays have gotten me busy this year!

Which plants are having the problems?
Coco grows some great pot; I have seen some killer grows with coco!

The earlier pictures you showed looked like the plants had very small problems of calcium and magneisum problems..... the tanish around the edges is what is left over after the plant has sucked the part of the leaf dry and the only 2 elements that cause leaf edges to go like that is calcium and potassium. Also when the plant has shown tanish like it did, that means the plants was using stored of the nutrient it was low on, either the pH is wrong or there is not enough for the plants or the plants is having problems taking in because of bacteria invading root zone from damping off or root rot.



Can you take a picture of the roots in the plants above my post?
That is pretty much all I Have to say for now, because Everyone has pretty much given great advice to the other problems......

Other than that your plants look freaking amazing dude I mean really good!!!!!

Hi Tokes,
Your thread has taken on a life of it's own. If you solve your problem...we'll miss the thread!

Hey, I wanted to bring up a subject....and that's the topic of yield. It's one of those hot button subjects and I only have a rudimentary understanding.

You've calculated out your crop yield for a last several coco gjrows...and the compared them to your anticipated yield.

This is the crux of your current issue. Yield not meeting expectations.

My question to you then is: Could your expected yield numbers be unrealistic?

How are those numbers calculated? Is it weight/watt or weight/plant...or any other yield calculation method. And has your anticipated yield been met by you...in other grows? ...and Toke, I'm not trying to be confrontive at all. Just a curious bystander.

Looking at the problem as an outsider (like we are) There are the usual plant and environmental conditions that could be at play. That's what your looking at now...and hopefully will discover. But your own expectations of the grow are a factor. If you're sure that that isn't an issue...then there's no reason to discuss it. I just brought it up so that you'd take a serious look at that. I mean...half your problems could be related to a math error! lol
Cheers,
ET

Hey Stitch, thanks for dropping in here. The plants above your post are indeed doing and looking amazing. I`m not having issues with these two, its my 14 plant grow that I have the issues with. I cant take pics of the roots of these two as they`re fixed into a scrog set up and wont come out until chop day.

I`ll be re-potting the 14 plants I`m having issues with, into their final 3 gall pots over the next couple of days so will be able to show the roots of these plants. My guess is that I think they`ll look good and fresh with lots of vigour. I`ll post em up when I`ve done them.

Hey ET, heh heh, yeah I`ll miss you all if I get this sorted, hopefully you`d all pop into my grow threads from time to time though.

No mate that`s a fair point to bring up and no hint of confrontation taken here and your curiosity is cool with me ;-). The answer is that my expectations of yield are from my own growing experience over a long period of time, I usually take 60=65 oz of prime bud, ie no popcorn buds etc., from my 3 tank 15 plant grow with 3 600watt lights.

I discovered something though which I hardly dare admit due to my own embarrassment. I did some further investigations of temperatures in the canopy and it varies tremendously. Where I usually have my temp guage is to the side of the group of plants and I`d noticed that the plants were suffering in the middle more than the outside. I was shocked to find that in the middle of the group the temps in the canopy reach up to 95f. The reason its so hot in the middle of the group is that I had 2 600w lights very close to each other and where the beams crossed over and overlapped the temps were up to 10 degrees f higher than the rest of the area, even though they were placed more than 24 inches above the tops of the plants. I`ve removed one of the lights and just after a couple of days there is a vast improvement and things are looking much greener and growth has picked up.

I dont think this has any thing to do with the initial issue of the intervienal yellowing as this is not my normal light arrangement, the 3 being well spread apart usually, and the fact that I only had the one lamp on when the problem occurred this time around. So I still would expect it to come back to haunt me again 2-3 weeks into flower as it has on previous grows here unless I can get on top of it with the new feeding regime and RO water. I sure feel embarrassed that I`ve put them under even more stress by over heating them though.

Its time for replacing the carbon filters, so I`ve decided to upgrade my ventilation. I currently have a 4 and a 5 inch (125mm) extractors and I`m thinking of changing the four inch for an 8 inch (200mm) to clear a lot more air through the room and then use the four inch as an intake from the attick space to bring cold air into the room (instead of relying on passive air coming in from the (warm) house via the door. This will hopefully stablise any fluctuations there might be in temperature within the room and bring overall temps down a bit.

Toke, alias dope!

Do you have updated photos of what the plants look like now?

Hey Toke...
I had to ask the question. I've never been much to calculate yield because of mixed strain grows and low yield strains (sats)...just wanted to make sure you weren't chasing your tail.

Glad you discovered the heat issue. That certainly can come into play. In the winter I'm always fighting RH. To keep my place at 25% RH is a major effort that I sometimes get slack with and plants suffer.
Take care,
ET

MynameStitch said:

Do you have updated photos of what the plants look like now?

Click to expand...

Hey STitch, I`ll put some updated pics up either this evening or 2moro. I`m going to re-pot them all so I`ll post pics of roots and the tops of the plants.

I`m going to have a lot of work to do and not much time to do it in. I`ll order the 8 inch extractor, filter and ducting today. I`ll have to fit this before I erect the screen table from 2x1 inch timber, I`ll have to move the 4 inch fan and switch it to outside intake. This will mean cutting holes in the ceiling etc. I also need to get the girls all potted up into their 3 gall pots, fit the RO filter (still awaiting the bloody tap), and of course build the screen table once I`ve completed the above.

Its important that I get the screen built quickly so as I dont let the plants get unruly. They`re ok at the moment but they`re gonna take some keeping up with the LST training by tying them down so it really is the sooner the better.

Hey there ET, do you try and keep humidity down to 25 % throughout flower or just towards the end?

Toke ;-)

T,
I didn't make that too clear. My place is very dry because of winter heating...so I'm always struggling to put moisture into the air. Ideally it should be even higher then 25% in early bloom but that's impossible for me to maintain. I can manage a steady 25% so I shoot for that.
ET