S1's suck?

I've grown out S1's of Bubba Kush and Trainwreck. I've flowered out the clones of those as well. I have to say while there is some variation, they all represent the mother well. I wouldn't breed with'em but they make great plants.

a guy i know of made s1 cheese seeds....the results showed landrace phenos....


eg.....s1cheese#1......s1cheese#2....s1cheese#3....s1cheese#4....s1cheese#5...etc


he then crossed the s1`s with each other....eg....s1cheese#2 x s1cheese#5

the resulting seeds were very similar to cheese

Thanks Sam and rgd. expert advise and well recieved.

Rick are these cheese seeds on the market?

....this was years ago....i only found out recently

the guy who was working the project stoped growing...

his end product was called "super cheese".......he said they were very cheesy seeds.

the guy who said this,also said he has a few super cheese seeds...i cant see it being better than the clone tho..

interesting method...

Great info everyone and thanks for contributing. I will forge ahead with the work and see what I get. nycKID

nycdkid said:

Hoosierdaddy exactly my point thank you, homozygous loci remain homozygous in future generations upon selfing, but heterozygous loci = each selfed generation leads to an increase in homozygosity by 50% for each heterzygous locus, and each subsequent generation, derived from selfing an s1 individual, is 50% more homozygous than the parent form wich it was derived. repeated selfing, or single - seed descent, is the fastest way to achieve homozygosity within a group or family, Again, the more plants grown from a selfed populantion, the better probability a breeder has of finding selfed progeny tha show all of the desired traits. -Jorge Cervantes. So why are people bashing S1's WHEN IT SEEMS NOONE HAS DONE THE ABOVE.....AND THAT IS TAKING AN S1 PAST AN S1 TO S6 TO GET TO 98.44% OF THE GENES OF THE INDIVIDUAL.

Click to expand...

Ok lets just say you get to F6 without the problems sam is talking about.

First you don't end up with the original plant by continuing to self one seed from that plant over and over again for 6 generations.

If you do you will get it in the S1 because miraculously the starting plant is 100% homozygous at every locus. Since that is unlikely your starting plant probably has some heterozygous genes.

If it does when you make seeds there will be variety in the seed crop whether you notice it or not. All the seeds will be homozygous at all the loci the mother/father was but some will be homozygous at some of the loci that the mother/father wasn't.

Some of the loci that were heterozygous in the parents may be may be homozygous for either allele possibility... so that leaves 3 different options for every heterozygous gene of the mother/father. Every seed that results will have a different number of these options. That still leaves a large number of gene combinations for the seeds that result from this cross. If you pick the wrong seed you move further from what you are trying to achieve... if that is total homozygosity.

A better option for achieving total homozygosity, assuming it is possible, would be...
-make the S1
-back cross one of the S1 offspring to the reversed mother.
-repeat this as long as you feel like you're getting somewhere.

The real question here is... is this a good idea? I say no but I could see why someone might find it interesting and it could be a learning experience.

What is the objective again?

suzycremecheese said:

Ok lets just say you get to F6 without the problems sam is talking about.

First you don't end up with the original plant by continuing to self one seed from that plant over and over again for 6 generations.

If you do you will get it in the S1 because miraculously the starting plant is 100% homozygous at every locus. Since that is unlikely your starting plant probably has some heterozygous genes.

If it does when you make seeds there will be variety in the seed crop whether you notice it or not. All the seeds will be homozygous at all the loci the mother/father was but some will be homozygous at some of the loci that the mother/father wasn't.

Some of the loci that were heterozygous in the parents may be may be homozygous for either allele possibility... so that leaves 3 different options for every heterozygous gene of the mother/father. Every seed that results will have a different number of these options. That still leaves a large number of gene combinations for the seeds that result from this cross. If you pick the wrong seed you move further from what you are trying to achieve... if that is total homozygosity.

A better option for achieving total homozygosity, assuming it is possible, would be...
-make the S1
-back cross one of the S1 offspring to the reversed mother.
-repeat this as long as you feel like you're getting somewhere.

The real question here is... is this a good idea? I say no but I could see why someone might find it interesting and it could be a learning experience.

What is the objective again?

Click to expand...

I have taken quite a few plants to F5 and they all had problems with the male flowers being fertile, every one.

Also I guarantee that your plants are not Homozygous, I have tested many many varieties and most are not even close at all. All cannabis is Heterozygous unless made by man to be Homozygous. And none have been made that are available to anyone. ZERO.

I don't think that the best way to achieve homozygosity is by back crossing, selfing works better if you have large enough plant numbers in the trials as well as a lab to test the genes for Homogeneity. And maybe parallel lines to combine at the end of the work to try and restore some vigor. If the parallel lines are different varieties then restoring vigor is easy, if they are the same line but just different female clones, I suspect they will not restore much vigor. But I have not done it.

-SamS

Suzi & Sam thanks ....very good information wow.

interesting stuff guys.
answer this if you would. i crossed sensi star with dj trueblueberry.
ok i than took a male from that cross ss x tbb and back crossed to the original ss female.
thinking i would be getting closer to the ss.
but from what your saying i would be better off selfing than bx to get closer to the ss?

sam said:

I have taken quite a few plants to F5 and they all had problems with the male flowers being fertile, every one.

Click to expand...

I'm not surprised. I imagine you've taken many populations to F5 though and haven't had this problem.

sam said:

Also I guarantee that your plants are not Homozygous, I have tested many many varieties and most are not even close at all. All cannabis is Heterozygous unless made by man to be Homozygous. And none have been made that are available to anyone. ZERO.

Click to expand...

That's why I used the word "miraculously."

me said:

If you do you will get it in the S1 because miraculously the starting plant is 100% homozygous at every locus. Since that is unlikely your starting plant probably has some heterozygous genes.

Click to expand...

sam said:

I don't think that the best way to achieve homozygosity is by back crossing, selfing works better if you have large enough plant numbers in the trials as well as a lab to test the genes for Homogeneity.

Click to expand...

I assumed we were talking about the average closet seed maker that doesn't have access to a lab. I'm speculating here, but I think that if you repeatedly self a population, you're just reshuffling the heterozygous alleles and getting different combinations in the progeny. I suppose it is possible if you made and germinated enough seed to find a completely homozygous plant in the offspring but I don't suspect it would be worth keeping and we'd never be sure which one it was without spending a fortune on lab fees. Also, I think it would be just as likely that you could find this 100% homozygous plant in the S1 generation as in the S6 generation.

sam said:

And maybe parallel lines to combine at the end of the work to try and restore some vigor. If the parallel lines are different varieties then restoring vigor is easy, if they are the same line but just different female clones, I suspect they will not restore much vigor. But I have not done it.

Click to expand...

Neither have I, I think it would be a waste of time, but if you had two parallel lines and you created two separate 100% homozygous plants from the same selfed ancestors, and you cross these lines aren't you just making heterozygous F1s again... not disputing the vigor part... just what's the point?

If you end up with completely homozygous plant from this cross I imagine it would be because both lines ended up with the same homozygous plant?

Wow hope that's not to thick.

barney said:

but from what your saying i would be better off selfing than bx to get closer to the ss?

Click to expand...

Yes but you will still have variation in the progeny.

englishrick said:

a guy i know of made s1 cheese seeds....the results showed landrace phenos....


eg.....s1cheese#1......s1cheese#2....s1cheese#3....s1cheese#4....s1cheese#5...etc


he then crossed the s1`s with each other....eg....s1cheese#2 x s1cheese#5

the resulting seeds were very similar to cheese

Click to expand...

is this not interesting?

it sounds like a good small scale project......i emigine it might be possible to "tweek" a plant from this method....or maybe extract a part of it to combine with another line

i wanted to see what would happen with s1's, s2's, s3's, etc. some of this happened by accident and other times on purpose. i was doing this simply for fun. i imagine what i'm doing is not good for the genes and just wanted to see what happened. so please don't tell me that i'm fucking something up, this was just a side project.

i was gifted some og kush s1's:



my buddy was growing them as well for a lot longer than me. he stressed them and they hermied creating these s2's:



the blades on each leaf are much wider and the plant doesn't stretch in flower nearly as much as the s1. the shape of the leaf is also different. this is my first time flowering the s2 so i don't have any bud pics yet but i'll post them soon. my friend had some that i smoked and couldn't tell much of a difference at all.

my buddy was having a hard time with his setup and stressing his plants alot. those s2's selfed and he was going to throw the beans away. i asked him for them. here's the s3:



the s3 spit male flowers during the beginning of flowering. i plucked them off and they never grew back. i was trying to do these in order but i fucked up and accidentally germed the s3's before the s2's. the leaves on this are different as well. the bud smells just like the s1 except a bit spicier. the bud looks completely different (i tipped this plant just to see what would happen). it's very resiny but it's a much darker plant. i'm excited to try it but not sure i would run it again due to the male flowers.


when the s2's stressed and selfed some of that pollen landed on a lavender x snocap x chemdog. this is what resulted:




this also spit male flowers in the beginning that were plucked and never grew back. this strain is honestly something i would like to keep except for the male flowers. how can i stabilize it? it yields about waay more than the og kush, is coated in resin just like the og, and has this killer fruity smell. i'm flushing the plant now and will let everyone know how the smoke is when its ready. it's really weird but the smell and appearance of this plant looks like it has 1/2 ogk traits and 1/2 lav x snocap x chemdog traits. here's what the lavender x snocap x chemdog normally looks like:




that plant is being flushed. i know some of the other plants had a mg deficiency that i couldn't figure out @ 1st but it turned out to be too low of a low ph.

this has been fun no doubt but my favorite so far is the s1 and accidental cross. i'll let you know how to s2 is in a few. also, i didn't pop many beans to get this. there are probably more phenos that i haven't seen yet. all the s1's i popped look very similar, i just kept one mom and have been cloning it ever since. the s2 and s3 i only popped 1 seed of. hope this helps. peace and stay safe everyone

So without stepping on any toes, S1 is okay, S3 = DANGER ZONE. So why don't we see more S'1's. Is it because the seeds aren't numerous enough on the original plant to make a profit? Is that once, breeders have the clone onlys, and use them for projects, and if consumers like us don't find those good phenos then, many will be upset? Also, what happens when you go past F3, to backcrossing F-4s?
Another question.

I had a bubba haze to hermie after two years of service, and afterwards I began to clone her and all her clones produced seeds too. Before, she was stressed she never produced pollen. I have now collected the orginal clone that doesn't hermie. My true question is that if her pollen happened to fall on my other flowering females, are they supposed to be all female seeds? Excuse my not knowing, but how much of the fatherish mother is going to be in the cross? Or is this known. If I am confusing let me know.

i thought og kush was a s1 anyways?????

is it possible to recombine the s1/s2/s3 plants to represent the mother??....

if so... is it allso possible to focus on a particular trait...or even make it faster/indica......making hibrids from plants worked in this way would be cool??

I live in the US. In a place where it is not cool to have more than a couple of plants.

I wish I was in a place, or the US didn't have such draconian laws concerning such an incredible and diverse plant. I would be very interested in setting up a place to have a large facility and breed and work on projects like the one being discussed here.

Interesting discussion thanks to all who have contributed!!

is it possible to recombine the s1/s2/s3 plants to represent the mother??....

Click to expand...

Theoretically if you grow out a large enough population you have all the building blocks of the parents... Getting them to recombine again to result in the exact plants that the parents were would be a challenge to say the least.

i don't know enough to confidently answer any of the questions above except aerokush - you will get female seeds from hermie pollen.

Tuned in...

Tuned in...

Please continue to work on this, I would be interested to see what results you end up with. I have some PPP and Jack Herer that are S1's. They are growing just fine. Have not yet flowered a PPP, but the Jack turned out well.

AR

englishrick said:

i thought og kush was a s1 anyways?????

is it possible to recombine the s1/s2/s3 plants to represent the mother??....

if so... is it allso possible to focus on a particular trait...or even make it faster/indica......making hibrids from plants worked in this way would be cool??

Click to expand...

the guy said,,,,he picked the afgahn phenos...an was sucsessfull in making cheesy seeds...after recombining he was able to find a cheesy plant...previously he had landrace phenos

how dose this make sence????

jdubz206 said:

i don't know enough to confidently answer any of the questions above except aerokush - you will get female seeds from hermie pollen.

Click to expand...

hermi pollen will propagate hermi plants. This I do know.