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soil vs peat

emmy75

emmy75

Member
ok an article on the bbc (british broadcastin) got me thinkin about soil v soiless or peat based mediums. the article stated that dirt is basically just a feel good substance or matter, and that exposure to dirt is a "happiness booster" for people,animals and im thinkin plants duh. ( no wonder why my cat likes to roll around in the dirt much to my unhappiness). anyway its this friendly bacteriea, Mycobacterium vaccae ,found in soil that creates this lift in mood.

now im not knocking those who choose to grow in a soiless medium, mostly promix which is peat based. this is just food for thought. so i did a search on peat and in addition to the lack of certain bacteria, i found that there very very low oxygen levels in places where peat grows vs soil which is full of oxygen.

so aside from all the amendments we add to either soil or soiless mediums i have to wonder isnt soil just outright better to be growing mj in than peat based medium. being that the most plants, exp mj, grow naturally in some type of soil becasue soil has things in it for plants that peat just doesnt have.

so after all this i guess my question is barring all other expenses, why do you choose peat over soil? :joint:
 
V

vonforne

soiless medium, mostly promix which is peat based.
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IMO, peat is an organic carbon based substance, hence it is soil. soiless is rockwool, grow pellets ect. Although it has little NPK value, you could still grow with peat. You could not grow anything in an inhert growing medium like rockwool ect. without some form of nutrients.

i found that there very very low oxygen levels in places where peat grows vs soil which is full of oxygen.
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In the enviroment that it is growing.

Once you have constructed you growing medium with peat and perlite with added compost it has plenty of O2.

Just my :2cents:

V
 
emmy75

emmy75

Member
hey V
i guess i put soiless for peat or promix because when i see medium recipes its always referred to as soiless.

ok so heres some info that helps me understand why peeps can grow peat based :

Most people know it's a natural product, but did you know that peat is essentially very ancient soil enriched by decomposed plant matter deposited over many years? It's mined all over the world although but the oldest and richest deposits are found in Canada.

Peat is lighter, softer, and more crumbly than ordinary garden soil. The crumbly texture means that it traps air and water differently than soil. It is naturally aerated so that air circulates among plant roots.

It absorbs and releases water more slowly than soil, helping keep roots evenly moistened, which is especially important during early plant growth. The light, crumbly texture helps encourage healthy root growth and doesn't hinder development like heavy soils can.
 
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mig

mig

Member
hey vonfrone....would you consider the rockwool...which is spun from basalt rock to be organic in nature? considering it does contain carbon backbone. and for the record, as i stated before, peat is not a soil. soil suggests that the medium contains mineral content. sand, silt and clay are soils. not decaying plant matter like peat moss. granted you are correct, it is a carbon containing structure, but by no means is it a mineral-based soil.
 
Don Chocolate

Don Chocolate

Member
I agree with mig. I'm sure peat is soilless. Hell, even Miracle Grow Potting Mix is soilless. Read the ingredience and it even reads soilless on the bag. That's why they call it Mix instead of Soil. For the record, I do not use MG!! :biglaugh:
 
V

vonforne

Mineral wool or rockwool has a high pH, which is unsuitable to plant growth.
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In industry use, MMMF (man-made-mineral-fibres) generally refer to synthetic materials. This includes fibreglass, ceramic fibres and also rockwool, also known as stone wool, and rock wool. Mineral wool is an inorganic substance
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I stand by my belief that rock wool no matter how it is composed is un-organic. no matter what technical terms are applied to the mineral substances is is derived from.

Now about the soiless debate. each one has his or her own definenition of what a soiless mix is.

I view it as an organic and it is compromised of the partly carbonized remains of plants.

Therefore I view it as a soil. Once you add a rock dust to it, it begins to decompose further.

And...

Now about the additives....sand, silt and clay are present in all the earths products....right? Now, peat moss is not just laying around with JUST plant matter. It is laying upon the ground. and as time passes and the wind blows, don't you think that sand is added? Or it is already in the soil structure under or mixed with the decaying plant matter? Or it is laying upon a clay substrate? Or silt? Could you explain your views in detail on that one for me. And if your are in fact correct and can prove it....I will concede.

example.....have you had a peat based substance analyzed? Just the peat? Do you think there will be absolutely NO mineral content contained within the peats composition? No clay content? NO silt content?

Please explain this to me.


I agree with mig. I'm sure peat is soilless. Hell, even Miracle Grow Potting Mix is soilless. Read the ingredience and it even reads soilless on the bag. That's why they call it Mix instead of Soil. For the record, I do not use MG!!
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Do you actually believe every thing written on the MG bag to be true. You might want to do some further research before you make those statements.

Mig possible has a leg to stand. We shall see.

V
 
mig

mig

Member
all im sayin is that from the books which i have read written by doctors and such...ya know, they call them professionals...to be defined as soil it must contain some portion of mineral rock ie sand, silt or clay....peat is an organic additive used to decrease soil porosity and add nutrients via decomposition.
 
V

vonforne

mig said:
all im sayin is that from the books which i have read written by doctors and such...ya know, they call them professionals...to be defined as soil it must contain some portion of mineral rock ie sand, silt or clay....peat is an organic additive used to decrease soil porosity and add nutrients via decomposition.
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I have read numerous manuals on the subject also.

Planting Noha's garden by Sahra Stiens-The Natural Habitat Garden

peat moss
Organic matter that is under-decomposed or slightly decomposed originating under conditions of excessive moisture such as in a bog.
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book-Humanure

Peat Moss A high-quality, organic material that is partially decomposed organic matter. Sphagnum peat is said to be the highest in quality, not to be confused with mountain peat.
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Colorado Springs Utilities.

Peat forms when plant material, usually in marshy areas, is inhibited from decaying fully by acidic conditions. It is composed mainly of peat moss or sphagnum, but may also include other marshland vegetation: trees, grasses, fungi, as well as other types of organic remains, such as insects, and animal corpses. Under certain conditions, the decomposition of the latter (in the absence of oxygen) is inhibited, and archaeology often takes an advantage of this.

Peat layer growth and the degree of decomposition (or humification) depends principally on its composition and on the degree of waterlogging. Peat formed in very wet conditions will grow considerably faster, and be less decomposed, than that in drier places. This allows climatologists to use peat as an indicator of climatic change. The composition of peat can also be used to reconstruct ancient ecologies by examining the types and quantities of its organic elements.

Under the right conditions, peat is the earliest stage in the formation of coal. Most modern peat bogs formed in high latitudes after the retreat of the glaciers at the end of the last ice age some 9,000 years ago. They usually grow slowly, at the rate of about a millimetre per year.

The peat in the world's peatlands has been forming for 360 million years and contains 550 Gt of carbon.[1]
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Definition of peat. Please read the first paragraph.

Peat wetlands formerly had a degree of metallurgical importance as well. During the Dark Ages, peat bogs were the primary source of bog iron, used to create the swords and armour of the Vikings.
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You might want to do some further research yourself.
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Yes Chocolate I do research and understand what I read.


Mig, this is what I was looking for from you. I guess you really do not want to learn and debate.


V
 
emmy75

emmy75

Member
thanks for bringing this back guys. i can get other peopls info instead of just answering my own question superficailly
 
G

Guest

Figured I'd throw this out there from my soil science class, even though the context is within that of the natural environment, and not in pots....but I think the beginning of #1 (bolded) applies most to this thread.

2 definitions of soil:

1) "Soil is a natural body comprised of solids (minerals and organic matter), liquid, and gases that occurs on the land surface, occupies space, and is characterized by one or both of the following: horizons, or layers, that are distinguishable from the initial material as a result of additions, losses, transfers, and transformations of energy and matter or the ability to support rooted plants in a natural environment"

2)"Soil consists of horizons near the earth's surface that, in contrast to the underlying parent material, have been altered by the interactions of climate, relief, and living organisms over time. Commonly, soil grades at its lower boundary to hard rock or to earth materials virtually devoid of animals, roots, or other marks of biological activity."

I think the beginning of #1 applies to the context of this thread the most.
I would consider peat moss to be undecomposed organic material, not soil, since it has an insignificant amount of mineral content, especially after it's been processed and bagged. shrug.
 
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G

Guest

emmy75 said:
isnt soil just outright better to be growing mj in than peat based medium.
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if your soil has sufficient organic matter...good texture...good structure, then yes.

if you have a hardpan soil that has been compacted by glaciers, then I would assume peat would be a better option. that's an extreme example but what i'm trying to illustrate is that it depends what kind of soil you have.

generally, though, a decent soil is better to grow in than 100% peat moss, i would say!

i don't like peat because it's acidic & when dry it repels water. i feel like a good soil will hold nutes/drain better as opposed to 100% peat
 
jaykush

jaykush

dirty black hands
ICMag Donor
Veteran
if your soil has sufficient organic matter...good texture...good structure, then yes.

if you have a hardpan soil that has been compacted by glaciers, then I would assume peat would be a better option. that's an extreme example but what i'm trying to illustrate is that it depends what kind of soil you have.

generally, though, a decent soil is better to grow in than 100% peat moss, i would say!

i don't like peat because it's acidic & when dry it repels water. i feel like a good soil will hold nutes/drain better as opposed to 100% peat
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i agree, personally i prefer soil that has been worked to fit my needs. though like you are saying if your soil is 80% rocks and pebbles and ground is solid as a rock as well a peat based mix would be good. i would never put anything in 100% peat though, it would just be a pain in the ass to work with.
 
V

vonforne

That is the point of working in the composts. the peat is used as a base substrate for water retention. and since we use rock dusts to supply Mg and ca it off sets the acidic peat.

Thats true JK, peat on its own is not a desirable base to work with. but combined with other additives...it is very good. and the latest studies on peat are finding that it is not as bad as most would think it to be. I would prefer to use straight composts to be quite honest.

but I think the discussion of this thread was the definition of peat as a soil or soiless mix.

I consider it to be a soil.

Thanks for the post Gelitinous.
 
jaykush

jaykush

dirty black hands
ICMag Donor
Veteran
oh dont get me wrong i have a tub full of some right now and buy it often as its cheap for me, and i recommend it for new users who cant find the best soil or composts to use. its easy to mix and grows great nugs. also i see it everywhere, but then again everyones got dirt of some kind to work with.

now if were comparing peat to lets say rockwool i hate that stuff. thats a different story.
 
mig

mig

Member
hey v you said it yourself man...or quoted it yourself. peat is organic matter. not soil. it is a soil additive. in soil testing they burn the organic matter away to see what the composition of the soil really is, hense soil is the stuff that does not get burnt away...ie the sand, silt and clay mineral particles. im sure some of the manuals...(not books) have been written by some pretty educated people. but the revision process on books i would imagine is much more critical than a manual. When one writes a book, there must be people who check the material, doctors in such in the related fields. It is basically peer editing with the smartest people on the subject. So if you want me to start quoting my books like you and calling it proof i will...course it would be easier for you to remove your head from your (expletive) and see that i am right. or would it?...
 
darthvapor

darthvapor

Active member
In my area they have a product called nutrapeat from orchard supply hardware. Its peat and cocco mixed. Its $6.49 for 1.5 cu ft. Thinking about giving it a try. Im gonna mix it 50/50 with perlite. So if cocco and peat are organic products, this would be soiless organic mix right? or not you guys confuse me
 
V

vonforne

hense soil is the stuff that does not get burnt away...ie the sand, silt and clay mineral particles.
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Mig, that is why I call it soil and not soiless. that is what this thread is about. I do not have my head in my (***) as you would put it. do you think that the doctors or peers that critique each others words speak to each other in that manner? then why should we? I see your point can you not see mine also with out the descriptive metaphors?

Conclusion, since the peat is burned off and leaving sand silt and minerals in you own words....it is soil and not soil less.

V
 
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