cloning from other clones

[Nomad]

No one has brought this question up (that i can see) but i've always had this question, how many times can you clone a clone, from a clone and so fourth. Say if you didnt have a mother, im sure there would be some degradation after awhile.

[glasspackedbowl]

From what I remember on the subject you can clone a clone 10-14 times before you see any potency/yeild degredration. :wave:

[Guest]

I actually brought this question up a while ago.
You'll get an answer here

http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=13260&highlight=Clone+lines

[Guest]

no worries on genetic drift until its been cloned umpteen times.
IME, the 20th generation+ you may start to see noticable mutations/decrease in vigour.
your mileage may vary..

potency shouldnt lack, can that be proven glasspackbowl? i do not think this is true but i have been wrong before :)

and dont let environment fool ya, say you move, bring the live specimen with you,
the clone may look like a totally different plant in a different op.

be well, hope it saves ya some searching, timtim thanks for the link i am checking it out right now :)

be well

[Guest]

What we call cloning when growing plants isn't the same as what geneticists call cloning. I'm not aware of any comprehensive proof of "genetic drift" or anything else related to taking clones. Under normal circumstances, there is nothing to worry about.

However, all individual plants have varying degrees of susceptibility to different types of pests, molds, diseases, etc. If your entire grow is clones of one plant, there is a (small) possibility that somewhere in the future the entire grow could fall victim to some adverse condition, because they all have the same characteristic susceptibility.

If you grow from seed, and select the "best" plants to produce seed for each subsequent generation, over time you develop stronger plants. This is how wild plants were domesticated in the first place. This, however, is very impractical, as few of us have the room to grow out the hundreds of seeds each generation necessary to do this.

If you grow from clone, especially since most of us are more interested in female plants, you give up this benefit, but the rewards of uniform growth characteristics and all female plants far outweigh the detriments.

If you can, keep a few different mom plants, and bring in new strains every once in a while, and you shouldn't have anything to worry about.

[Guest]

What we call cloning when growing plants isn't the same as what geneticists call cloning. I'm not aware of any comprehensive proof of "genetic drift" or anything else related to taking clones. Under normal circumstances, there is nothing to worry about.

your wrong :) what are 'normal circumstances' and have you ever taken a stem cutting before? this is referred to as a clone in this hobby and general gardening alike, botany would consider it a clone too, a genetic copy of the 'mother plant' be it male or female :)

Let me take this opportunity to apologize to you, on behalf of the entire botanical community, for not being technical, in our use of the term, "clone"

i do usually refer to it as a stem-cuttin sorry for not being more specific.

genetic drift, in drug cannabis, can occur after a line has been inbred for many generations or excessively cloned, as described above..

you are, however, absolutely right about putting all yer eggs in 1 basket.. this is why we keep living specimins, clones:D, of over 24 cultivars:bat:

be well

[m.steelers]

What you're up to 24 now? Damn I only have 15 :D :pointlaug

The Cutz Templar - guardians of elite cultivar
- Whazza!?

[Guest]

If you grow from seed, and select the "best" plants to produce seed for each subsequent generation, over time you develop stronger plants. This is how wild plants were domesticated in the first place. This, however, is very impractical, as few of us have the room to grow out the hundreds of seeds each generation necessary to do this.

not only that but doing what you describe only works for so long...
the proof is in tha puddin....
http://www.icmag.com/gallery/data/500/5538nlbabyaww-thumb.JPG
hard to see;unseen leaf mutations. Strain also lacks resistance, +more inuendos associated with long-term inbreeding.
a strain inbred too long will eventually need to be outcrossed to something unrelated to keep the genetics fresh and increase vigour.

hence the term, "Hybrid Vigour" , youve probably heard of it.

your methodology regarding breeding is quite obviously based on something other than cannabis..continuing to breed a line in the way you describe over the course of many years is a great way to turn a line to shit.*

*see my thumbnail of mutant nl above (extreme leaf mutations are prevelant in this population, and has proven to have shit resistance to insects/drought), or, just grow some DP Blueberry and see for yourself :)

be well, hope this clears up between us, i only mean well :)

[Guest]

What you're up to 24 now? Damn I only have 15

The Cutz Templar - guardians of elite cultivar
- Whazza!?
o, ok.........
change my number to 28 then:biglaugh:

btw, M: a CCK pulled thru!:woohoo:

[m.steelers]

glad to hear it bro - top the shit out of that one, that MFer grows straight up and FAST as hell in veg.

[Guest]

Captain Jack, it appears that something I said has upset you, I am sorry. I am not a breeder. (Nor am I an idiot.) I may be wrong, but based on the original question, I don't believe Nomad is a breeder either.

For an indoor recreational grower, if the choice is between cloning or growing from seed, it is my opinion that cloning offers far more advantages than disadvantages.

You obviously have more experience than I do. I am willing to take your word that after twenty some odd generations you discover adverse characteristics when cloning from a clone each time. Do you know why? And why after 20? Why not after five, or fifty? I am not being fascetious, I am just trying to learn. Very little verifiable information on the cultivation of mj exists, and I don't have the time or opportunity to test all ideas, so I usually turn to general "legal" horticultural practices for answers to questions like these. You may have some insight that I do not and I am always eager to learn.

I agree that in the vast majority of circumstances, inbreeding is detrimental. That is why I said one would need to grow out hundreds of seeds each generation (I should have specified that this group should be taken from numerous different plants), thus eliminating inbreeding. But, Nomad didn't ask about inbreeding, he asked about cloning. He did ask about cloning from a clone repeatedly, and I suggested keeping moms... would you agree with this or do you find this to be relatively unnecessary?

I envy your ability to keep 24 cultivars, I only have room for three.

[Guest]

hehe wasnt angry, plz dont get that idea lol

i may have gotten a bit carried away.

Ta answer yer question:
yes. i keep moms, however,
my modest lil closet leaves no room for moms. Therefor, mine are kempt by AFOM.

no. can't tell you why the recloning issue is what it is, but i can tell you to research if you are interested, using reputable online resources such as .edu etc... maybe i can pm some breeder friends if you seriously do want to know why.. i'm no geneticist either, and not profiecient enough in plant biology to properly answer you, on that note.

ever hear people make claim to their 2nd/3rd generation clones not rooting as quickly as the originals taken from the seedplant? it's common and one example of the 'adverse' effects..you nailed it with that wording :) adverse is it! and no, 20 is juust an example i guess, whos to say it wont be noticable at 10 or 30, your right.

in conclusion, none of us, you nor me, breeder nor botanist, can see 'into' the genes of a plant or subsequent clone, but we CAN keep a good eye on the work we do, and keep mental or physical notes regarding growth characteristics, as we go.. things may not be noticable as 'different' to the eye, but something is happening, responsible for the 'adverse' characteristics seen after many many generations of cloning and recloning the same specimen. i actually made my sel;f very clear that i wasnt looking for an arguement, in my previous posts, see here:

be well, hope this clears up between us, i only mean well :)
I truly apologize if i came off like a jackass, not my intent.
hope to engage in more intelligent convo. with ya in the future.

take care

[unobtainium]

check the definition of clone, a clone is an exact genetic replica of its parent. i dont see how it could 'drift' if its an exact genetic replica. the bud you prduce may be slightly different but the genes will always be the same with a clone IMO

[Guest]

Well, after a few hours of plugging around, I still can't find an explanation that I can understand as to why degeneration occurs with subsequent generations of clones, but it does happen, and it is species specific. Some plants, like grapes, can go through centuries of vegetative propogation, while others suffer adverse effects after only a few generations. I guess I haven't ever come across this since I grow using moms, not cloning from clones. If space allows, that is the obvious solution.

Genetic drift may not be the proper term, this implies changes due to mutations, becuase reproduction is asexual, this is the only way the genes could change. From what I have been able to gather, the problem usually arises due to increased susceptibility to disease. I'm not sure that anyone knows specifically why a given species' quality degenerates over time, just that it does. I will continue digging, but I think I am in way over my head.

[Guest]

What about taking clones off of a plant that has already started flowering? I have read over the years that if you take a cut from a plant that is flowering there is some genetic differences in the clone. I have been curious about this for years. Is it true or not? On the same note does a reveg plant change genetically after flowering or do the genes stay the same?

I am no expert by any means at all just curious because I have read different things on this matter for years

GCG

[Mr GreenJeans]

I don't think the genes themselves actually change much, but I can see age coming into it. Just like humans, some live long lives with hardly any physical problems, some have problems from the gitgo. If a cell line is propagated vegatatively the dna clock / genetic maturity is still ticking, some species and strains have longevity and some won't.

[Guest]

What about taking clones off of a plant that has already started flowering? I have read over the years that if you take a cut from a plant that is flowering there is some genetic differences in the clone. I have been curious about this for years. Is it true or not? On the same note does a reveg plant change genetically after flowering or do the genes stay the same?

I am no expert by any means at all just curious because I have read different things on this matter for years

GCG


There shouldn't be any difference in genes for that reason.


Only if you have an X-Ray machine for rooting :D

Peace and love,
Agnes

[m.steelers]

Hey Garlic - I have taken plenty of clones from flowering plants. They take a little longer to root sometimes, and they take a long time to get growing vegatatively again, but the replicas always flowered out the same as the mothers.... The one thing to note is when they get growing vegatatively again, a shoot comes out of pretty much every bud pistil... The plants get really bushy and a lot of times you need to go in there and remove some of the shoots before you reflower, just so you dont have a lot of small popcorn crap.

[Guest]

Thanks Agnes and M.steelers for answering my question. I have revegged plants before and M you are very right they become very bushy , Too bushy for my taste.

Thanks for the answer to my question.
GCG

[Guest]

nts- thanks for doing some hw on it yourself, i too am curious, but, as you said, in over my head because, welp, im a big stoner:D and don't care enough to check into it...it just don't matter in my life one way or the other...if it changed enough to matter over the course of that many generations, it may be worth looking into deeper, but at this point, im not concerned.

id rather devote some time to researching things that matter to me and my growing, like breeding, for example. i wish i knew more about breeding and genetics but my knowledge, unfortunately, is limited to my experience, as i have not studied plants or plant/natural science in almost a decade(high school):tongue:

anywho, im happy you can now, after researchin a bit, see where i was coming from. what it truly breaks down to is that the world of cannabis, and cannabis cultivation, worldwide is 'boxed-in' , and vague.. Unless it's legal status is changed, and prohibition lifted, nothing will be known 'for sure' , as it's still virtually impossible for any real testing, funding, or research to go down, by credible, top organizations/facilities/colleges/individuals .... shit, weed'll actually have an appropriate binomial nomenclature:bashhead: hehe..again, pleasure to make yer aquaintance hope we can engage more, in the future.

be well

What about taking clones off of a plant that has already started flowering? I have read over the years that if you take a cut from a plant that is flowering there is some genetic differences in the clone. I have been curious about this for years. Is it true or not? On the same note does a reveg plant change genetically after flowering or do the genes stay the same?

I am no expert by any means at all just curious because I have read different things on this matter for years

GCG

heya garlic, good question:yes:
nah, no ill effects, in the long run, really...only thing ya might have heard about is clones taken well into the flower cycle pullin some crazy stunts liek single-bladed leaves, rounded leaves, etc, but typically, the plant will grow out of this over the course of the next month, or two (if kept in 24/0 as a clone-mother)

same rules apply for normal clones as opposed to flowering clones, to revert back to veg put in a 24/0 light period, feed a weak bloom nute post-rooting, then proceed to feed as if the plant was in a vegetative state, normal veg nutes, and eventually, it'll come back.
not to confuse you, but,
a plant changes it's 'phenotype' with it's environmental/stress, which is why a plant's buds looks different sometimes revegged, and why trainwreck looks different in your op, than it does in mine.

it's genetics will still remain, but if stressed, recessive traits can pop up,
just like it's near-death-sensing-mechanism,
which produces the bananas we all know and love.
and to defend myself in advance:rolleyes:this isnt my finding this is something reported by numerous people and theres even a thread on it here somewhere.lmk, i can look.

be well :)

[Guest]

Yeah Captainjack I like taking clones before they flower if possible because I am not very patient to wait the extra month or 2 for them to revert back to veg.

Thank you for the answer to my question
GCG

[Ganoderma]

I prefered to take clones from a mother plant instead of taking clones from a clone of a clone of a clone of a clone, ect., taking a clone of off s flowering plant take to long to be able to be flowered its self not to mention that said clone would have been a good sized amount of bud on the plant, so now you have lower growth that isn't going to grow out as much which will mean less on the plant when it finishes

[Guest]

Cool, i like flowering clones better anyway. I take all mine at 21 days. Its more than worth the wait for reveg IMO. :yummy:

http://www.icmag.com/gallery/data/500/640922211-thumb.jpg (http://www.icmag.com/gallery/data/500/640922211.jpg)

Perfect for scrog or if you just want a big wild bush. No fiming or toping or even training is needed. They just go wild

Edit: I dont even wait for them to veg. As soon as i see the new branches coming i flip 12/12

http://www.icmag.com/gallery/data/500/6409100_3000-thumb.jpg (http://www.icmag.com/gallery/data/500/6409100_3000.jpg)

http://www.icmag.com/gallery/data/500/6409sadpclone-thumb.jpg (http://www.icmag.com/gallery/data/500/6409sadpclone.jpg)

[glasspackedbowl]

nts- thanks for doing some hw on it yourself, i too am curious, but, as you said, in over my head because, welp, im a big stoner:D and don't care enough to check into it...it just don't matter in my life one way or the other...if it changed enough to matter over the course of that many generations, it may be worth looking into deeper, but at this point, im not concerned.

id rather devote some time to researching things that matter to me and my growing, like breeding, for example. i wish i knew more about breeding and genetics but my knowledge, unfortunately, is limited to my experience, as i have not studied plants or plant/natural science in almost a decade(high school):tongue:

anywho, im happy you can now, after researchin a bit, see where i was coming from. what it truly breaks down to is that the world of cannabis, and cannabis cultivation, worldwide is 'boxed-in' , and vague.. Unless it's legal status is changed, and prohibition lifted, nothing will be known 'for sure' , as it's still virtually impossible for any real testing, funding, or research to go down, by credible, top organizations/facilities/colleges/individuals .... shit, weed'll actually have an appropriate binomial nomenclature:bashhead: hehe..again, pleasure to make yer aquaintance hope we can engage more, in the future.
be well :)

I hear that CJ. I was watchin a show on TV where they made Rosemary oil from steam distalition. They got some sweet oil. I was wondering if cannabis oil could be made this way.

I tryed to reveg a plant once and it was making really weird shaped leafs and I know this happens some times but I just gave up.