PH before or after adding nutrients?

[Guest]

I've read conflicting information to where some say to PH before and some say after. What is the deal here? PH'ing before might require some people to actually use PH up if after adding your nutrients you get in the 4's. I usually PH'd after mixing. I'm in a coir/perlite mix in a passive hydro setup. I blended 1 part tap water (very hard water) to 4 parts R/O. PH adjusted and bubbled for an hour, bringing it to 6.0. I then added 12ml PBP which brought it in the low 4's. I then added 12ml Maxicrop and tha actually brought it back up to 5.88, which is where it held steady after bubbling in the gallon jug.

So, why do we see conflicting info on when to PH your water? Also, will I be okay with Mg/Ca by using 25% hard water to 75% R/O until I can get my hands on some micro supplements? I understand that without seeing a water analysis it's hard to guess... By the way, what micros does Maxicrop have?

[bartender187]

Maxicrop Seaweed has a bunch of micro nutrients... also... i know hard water has a decent amount of MG/CA... ide just experiment with ratios (start low... if you see signs of MG defficency, pick up a CAL-MAG bottle, or add more Tap Water...)

peace

[3legdog]

I am not sure what you mean conflict :confused: . My thoughts are you just need to have it proper when it hits the plants. You can start by ph ing it if lets say your going to use a certain type of nutr. thats going to have drastic changes but my theory has always been do as little phing as possible & use other nuts...like you have ...to do the so called adjusting for you. My Guano teas sometimes climb too high(7.0) after sitting & or bubbling & i have been using a little PBP flow. to bring it down to around 6.0 or i use a little EJ catalyst to lower it. When i do have to adjust i use the EJ all natural ph adjuster very easy powder/crystals

Best of luck & have a nice weekend all Peace 3ld :wave:

[Guest]

Well, maybe it depends on what nutrient I guess. I read on bottles that said PH adjust you water BEFORE (caps and bold) adding solution. And then on others, it says AFTER. So that led me to ask the question here.

Btw, I had been using PBP with straight R/O and I never saw the ** Cal-Mag note at the bottom because I'm not sure that was even printed on the bottle when I first bought this product (but I didn't have a R/O at that time so it's possible I just ignored it). Since my recent addition of the R/O filter I've started seeing some Mg-. I'm looking into the other Botanicare supplements.

[3legdog]

Right on PG Botanicare has darn near everything now....even a few new ones recently...best of luck 3ld

[Guest]

http://www.wormsway.com/articles/08_03_phandnutrients.asp

Before You Mix . . .

Finally, to prevent possible problems, take a pH reading of the water you will be using and adjust it as needed before mixing your nutrient solution, and never use hot water when mixing hydroponics nutrient. (The ‘scale’ that you see on the inside of hot water pipes is a form of calcium that will raise your pH to irritating levels which cannot easily be reduced.)


http://www.eurohydro.com/anglais/whatsin.htm

Nonetheless, high pH can damage plants in many other ways. So the best way to deal with pH adjustment is to adjust your water's pH, mix in the nutrients, let it stand for a while to stabilize, then test and adjust the pH again.

Why adjust the pH before and after? Adding the nutrients in a well-adjusted pH will allow the very precious chelates not to break down. And adjusting after again, when needed, allows you to make sure your roots will bathe in the most harmonious and complete nutrient solution, an environment where you know they will thrive.


http://futuregarden.com/nutrition/nutrition_overview.html

But before you mix up your first batch, you'll want to adjust the pH of your water BEFORE you add the nutrients so they will be optimally available to your crop. For more information, please see our pH and PPM page.


http://cannabisculture.com/articles/4044.html

There's always been a big debate over when to adjust your pH – before and after you add nutrients to the water, or just after. We talked to an expert, and she said to do both. The reasoning for doing both is that water is rarely dead-on neutral. It's either acidic or alkaline, depending on your region. Our chemist said that the way the professionals do it is to render the water neutral first (pH of 7.0). You would then add your nutrients to that chemically neutral solution and adjust to the desired range within 5.2 to 5.9 pH. Makes sense to me.

[johnstreet]

Yeh, during bloom in Hydro w/ RockWool I think one very seldom needs pH up. Even if the tank pH goes down to 4 I leave it because after re-circulation it will be 4.5. With some photosynthesis it is at 5.2 within a day maximum. Most rockwool will increase medium pH by 1/2 thus after 24 hr the block pH is 5.7.

During Grow/Generation and the tank adjusts even quicker - and it will be go from 4 to 6 in 48 hours. Young plants get a bit poisoned by pH down and I reckon young seedlings prefer growing with less down even if it means growing at a ph of 7.

One certain rule for pH up/down is to dilute it before adding. I tend to add after re-circulation and in Bloom allow my ph to range from 4 (occasionally) to 6. It sits at 5.5-5.7 most of the time.

:joint:

[sunnyside]

personal grower...as you have found, if you ask 10 growers the same question, you are likely to get 10 different answers.
Heres the way I look at it... most hydroponic nutrients available today are ph buffered. So You would definately want to mix the nutrients first...let the buffers do their job, and then adjust further.

Have you ever noticed that your ph tends to rise over time in your resevoir...that is because the nutrients are being taken out of the solution by the plants...less nutrient in the solution = less capability to buffer ph = a rise in ph.

What I usually do is mix nutrients to the strength I want them at...then I let them sit for a couple of hours to 'adjust'...my ph tends to stabalize within a couple of hours...then I drop the ph to 5.5 or wherever I want it.
Hope this helps. :)

[Guest]

sunnyside - pH buffered in the sense that when mixed in most normal water supplies it will give a pH between 5.5 - 6.5 (as defined by advanced nutrients). The keyword, and without definition, here is 'normal water'. Which is why some people need to adjust to a normal range BEFORE. It is my theory that if this isn't done first then when the nutrients are leeched from the water then there will be wilder swings in PH, jmho. Therefore, ones needing to adjust before depends on the quality of their water to start with. Perhaps that's the safest answer :-) My R/O comes out about 6.75. When I mixed 3/4 R/O with 1/4 tap the resulting PH after 24 hours was 8.3, if that tells you anything about my tap :) I have a ph/ec/tds pen coming in monday so I'll be able to at least see my starting PPMs. I'm guessing >= 200 on the tap side.


With respect to resevoir fluctuations, yes, I've been there and done that. Which is why I'm now on to passive hydroponics to where this will not be a problem.

[Guest]

Browsing some of my bookmarks I stumbled upon something I must have meant to read at one point (from CW)


pH Changes During the Making up of a Nutrient Solution
When making up a nutrient solution, it is important to adjust the pH of the water before adding the nutrient. The nutrients will affect the pH, and it usually takes about 2 hours after adding the nutrients for the pH to stabilise, as all the buffers in the water have to come to chemical equilibrium. Having a bubbling stone in the solution mixes up the water and speeds this up. I found that if the pH rises somewhere above pH 7.5, then a white precipitate forms as calcium and possibly micronutrients lock up and precipitate out.

I used to always add 18 mL acid and the nutrient, and then add 5 mL of acid 45 minutes later, this gave me a pH of 5.8. But I was very surprised to find that when I added 23 mL of acid and the nutrient all at once to the tank it gave me a pH of 4. So I found that if all the acid is added at once, then this completely over-acidifies the nutrient solution, and the reason for this is the buffering action of the bicarbonates in the water breaks if the solution drops below pH 5.3

[Guest]

Good stuff guys... Learned alot.. Keep the great info coming.. peace..

Sack's First Outdoor Grow (http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=11794)
LQQK see... Now in 12/12
Sack's Bubbledust Outdoor Grow (http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=13519)
Sack's Cappuccino OD Grow (http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=13630)
Sack's Limon OD Grow (http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=13769)

sack :friends: :canabis: :joint

[3legdog]

You did a very nice job researching & posting those quotes for us PG ! I think for the most part we are all on the same page :friends: ...i like what you said that whether to ph before adding the nuts. depends on the quality of your starting water...so true i missed that in my thoughts above. I have been using distilled & rain lately that thankfully are very close to nuetral(7) & both have no ppms of disolved solids...gota love my mtn. rain :woohoo: . Again nice thread very informative.. take care PG & Peace out :wave: 3ld :joint:

btw what kind of combo meter did ya get ? I have a sharp(milwalkee) tds pen...waterproof & it works great..those all in one meters are very nice & certainly a great addition to any program. Also if your water is 200tds or less out of the tap it's probably not too bad. Mine is over 300 tds & is not usable alone

[Guest]

3legdog: A slightly used Hannah HI98130 from a lab. Got it for 45$ so I'm hoping it all works out for me. If I would have plunked down the money in the beginning for a decent meter ,this wouldn't be my 3rd ph pen. Some lessons are learned the hard way :( I'm hoping it still works out with using PBP because I've read the age-old debate on how it's registering PPMs in a hydro-organic solution.

I've been wanting to get a rainbarrel for a while, or a koi pond with a self-sustaining ecosystem that has most of your nutes built right in. Just a dream though :)

[Guest]

Alot depends on your nutes... water condition to start... and the medium you use.

Why do we see conflicting info? We all have different growing styles.

I use PBP in hydro with RO water. This combination always needs PH up to bring it to the level I want and found to be best for my medium (coco coir/perlite).

Tap water PH 7.5 and TDS is 700 ppm. The RO brings that to 6.2 with TDS of 10 - 20.

When adding PBP the resevoir will drop to 5.0 or so... I like to run my medium around 6.1 - 6.5. I always need to use PH up and the tendency is for it to drift down.

I also use Cal-Mag and Liquid Karma... both will drop your PH... also use a shot or two of Silca Blast and Hydroplex as a bloom enhancer.

Just sharing my experience... your mileage may vary. It's a good idea to get your system dialed in and in balance. It's a good thing to closely monitor you PH and TDS... things can take a dump pretty fast sometimes.

Good growing... Mais-

[Guest]

Just some more info regarding buffering. This leads me to believe that mucking with PH after adding your buffered nutrient(s) is working against the buffers themselves. Therefore, working out your source water to have a PH/PPM just about right for the dosage of nutrient to get you close to your base... Just thinking outloud.


Buffering
The buffering capacity, or ability to resist change in pH, is greatest within one pH unit of the pKa for the acid. A complex equilibrium exists between the concentrations of all of the species present in the nutrient solution and the concentration of available hydrogen ions, making the nutrient solution a buffer over a very large range. This is why adding acid to pure water decreases the pH much faster than adding acid to the mixed nutrient solution.

Any species added to solution that can be either a proton donor (acid), or a proton acceptor (base), sets up a buffer.


But on the other hand:

djusting pH The addition of acids or alkalis to nutrient solutions is the most common and practical means to adjust pH, and can be easily automated. There are ways to minimise pH variations and they are worth some consideration. Nitrogen is the essential inorganic nutrient required in the largest quantity by plants. Most plants are able to absorb either nitrate (NO3-) or ammonium (NH4+) or both. NH4+ as the sole source of nitrogen or in excess is deleterious to the growth of many plant species. Some plants yield better when supplied with a mixture of NH4+ (ammonium) and NO3- (nitrate) compared to NO3- alone. A combination of NH4+ and NO3- can be used to buffer against changes in pH. Plants grown in nutrient solution containing only NO3- as the sole nitrogen source tend to increase solution pH, hence the need to add acid. But when approximately 10%-20% of the total nitrogen is supplied as NH4+, the nutrient solution pH is stabilised at pH 5.5. NH4+ concentration needs to be monitored as it has been shown recently that micro-organisms growing on plant root surfaces can convert the NH4+ to NO3-. Since hand-held ion-selective electrodes for measuring both NH4+ and NO3- are now available, it should be possible to accurately monitor and maintain a predetermined NO3-/NH4+ ratio throughout the life of the crop. Phosphorus is required in large amounts by plants. Interestingly, there are two forms of fertilisers containing both K and P - KH2PO4 mono-potassium phosphate (MKP) and K2HPO4 di-potassium phosphate. Equal quantities of both can be used to maintain the pH at 7.0. Using a higher proportion of K2HPO4 increases pH. MKP can be used to lower the solution pH. Buffers are solutions which resist pH change and are used to calibrate pH electrodes. Buffers can be added to nutrient solutions in an attempt to maintain pH stability. One such buffer is called 2-(N-morpholino) ethanesulfonic acid - abbreviated to MES. Many of the companies who claim better pH control with their 'specially' formulated nutrient solutions add MES to their mixes. It is important to remember when using MES, that after MES addition the pH is low and needs to be adjusted to your required level with an alkali such as potassium hydroxide (KOH). Another method of pH stabilisation is to use ion- exchange and chelating resins. Generally, these resins are small beads which have nutrients absorbed or chelated onto them - the nutrient solution circulates through the beads or the beads can be suspended in the nutrient tank. As plants absorb nutrients, more nutrients are released by the resins. The aim is to achieve controlled release of nutrients into the solution in an attempt to mimic the way the soil releases nutrients. Ideally, such release can adequately supply the growing plants' nutritional requirements and maintain pH stability.

[Guest]

Right on PG Botanicare has darn near everything now....even a few new ones recently...best of luck 3ld

Locked and loaded. Just got the Karma, CalMag, SilicaBlast, Sweet, Clearex and Hydroguard (prolly didn't need that one). Might as well be wearing a Botanicare T-Shirt :)

[3legdog]

Good stuff PG glad you were able to get so many things in 1 run & yea sign me up for the Botanicare T also :wink: . Have a great weekend playn' the "mad scientist" w/ the new goodies. Peace 3ld :wave:

[Harry Gypsna]

I think with all the different answers, we still have a consensus(if thats possible lol) and that is to do it whichever way works for you

[3legdog]

^^ well said HG

[resinryder]

You know, I've done it both ways. What I've found is this. You can adjust the water prior to nute addition. Adding the nutes is gonna change the ph and then you have to readjust after addition. Making the first adjustment therefore was a waste of ph up/down. Soooo, I just add the nutes to the water, let it sit and bubble for a while then adjust to where you want it. I use calmag in my res at the rate of 2ml/gal when using plain tap water(usually 7.2-7.3 here) and 4 ml/gal when using RO water. I do notice my ph drifts more when I use just RO water more so than when using plain tap water. Just my take on ph adjustments. RR
Tip for using Clearx, I use it once a month during the growth cycle mixed at 15ml/gal water. As it floods the table(usually for about a hour, or until EC/PPM settle out) about every 15 minutes I scoop some up in a container and pour over the top of my rockwool cubes and lightly "rub" off any salts residue.Just seems to clean it up a bit better allowing better air exchange. At the end of the bloom cycle when I begin the final flush I mix at 30ml/gal water and do the same way as stated above. Flush until ec/ppm settles out then pour out that water and add fresh water and a product name "Final Flush"(unscented) and let it run on your normal feed cycle for 2 days.I then replace that with plain water for another 4-5 days changing the plain water daily. I have found that doing it this way really increases the flavor factor and removes any chemical elements. I know that was a lot off topic(lol) just tryin to help.

[Guest]

Since changing to RO water, I find that the nutrient itself is perfect to adjust the pH to between 5.5 and 5.7 and it seems to stay absolutely stable for two weeks or even more. I haven't adjusted pH since buying the RO filter.

[Guest]

Locked and loaded. Just got the Karma, CalMag, SilicaBlast, Sweet, Clearex and Hydroguard (prolly didn't need that one). Might as well be wearing a Botanicare T-Shirt :)
Which bloom formula are you using? If you are using the PBP Bloom for hydro, I have been told to add a secondary bloom booster.

People have had success with the soil formula of PBP, but that was unavailable at the time to me. Hydroplex is another botanicare product that can be used (Again, unavailable at my time of purchase.).

I ended up using Tiger Bloom, or rather, will be using it, as this is my first grow with the botanicare stuff. I've been told that pk 13/14(?) is good to use as well.

Texas Kid (iirc) uses TopMAx.

So far I've been having good luck with the PBP line.

Since changing to RO water, I find that the nutrient itself is perfect to adjust the pH to between 5.5 and 5.7 and it seems to stay absolutely stable for two weeks or even more. I haven't adjusted pH since buying the RO filter.

Same here. I'm almost ready to stop checking (but I probably wont)

[aeric]

My tap water is always 7.0 but no idea about the PPM yet (meter soon i hope!). I always add pH down first because I already know what the final result will be...I add 1.5-1.7 ml/gal for mild and medium veg formulas respectively and 1.2-1.5 for mild and medium flowering. The result is always the same....it's not like you don't already know what will happen if u add say 1ml pH down and 10ml of your nute and wait 2 hours. So why add anything after if you don't need to? Then again I am talking about fresh solutions made for run to waiste, reservoirs are a different story. I think the best thing for a reservoirs pH is to use mostly RO and cultivate beneficial bacteria, never completely dumping the tank (via Hurtback or an aquarium style). If adding say 15ml of nute brings down the pH of your solution (with RO water) too much, why not add 1/2 of that or whatever brings it to the right pH, then add more when it goes back up? (assuming your ppms are also going down)

[Guest]

Which bloom formula are you using? If you are using the PBP Bloom for hydro, I have been told to add a secondary bloom booster.

People have had success with the soil formula of PBP, but that was unavailable at the time to me. Hydroplex is another botanicare product that can be used (Again, unavailable at my time of purchase.).

I ended up using Tiger Bloom, or rather, will be using it, as this is my first grow with the botanicare stuff. I've been told that pk 13/14(?) is good to use as well.

Texas Kid (iirc) uses TopMAx.

So far I've been having good luck with the PBP line.



PBP Bloom. And yes, I too feel you need an additional P/K booster to supplement the PBP. Some strains shown me a P deficiency using PBP, but upping the dosage also upped the Nitrogen which gave me problems.

[3legdog]

I ve been using the EJ bloom (0-3-1) bubbled for 24-48 hrs'...it stabilizes the ph at mid 6s' where i like to feed & works well late/last few 'feedings'. Take care all 3ld :joint:

[Guest]

My RO water is about PH 6.0. With PBP, Cal-Mag your PH will drop to about 4.8... It is a never ending battle bringing it up into the range I wanted for my ebb and flow tables.

I recently switched my flower nutes from PBP to Age Old Organics, which IS OMRI certified and suitible for hydro, as mentioned on the current label. So far I've had great success with this nute. I still add Cal-Mag and sometimes a little iron (Fertilome brand) to the mix. As a blowm booster, I've used TopMax with good success.

With this combination, my PH holds very well with little if any adjustment.

Monitor your PH often... you can't go wrong that way.

Mais-

[Sleepy]

bump...

those of you having success with the r/o units, do you also have a water softener?

thanks.

[Guest]

Sleepy:

Part of the problem with my tap water is that the city softens it as part of the purification process. The TDS coming out of the tap is around 420. The RO unit removes all the salts & crap and gives me an effective TDS between 0 and 10.

[00420]

i add ph as needed.

after adding nutes a day later ph can jam right back up too 7.0....
u have to add ph down after nuting theres no way u could not n stil have green plants.......

i have all so had water evap or plants up take it one of the 2... & then found my ph at 4.7... having to add ph up most the time u can get away with just adding water but theres all ways the 1 time its just not enuff....

so i say....... add it as need.

[Sleepy]

ok, i have decided to group my nutes/additives by the way they affect my pH...

one group that raises pH and another that lowers pH...

i have also started to check my pH LAST...after whatever i am adding to the water, but just before i water the plants with it.

is this a good way to go about it?

i think i will use less pH adjusters this way...we'll see. :chin:

[buhdyman]

Im glad to see everyone knows their ph techniques. a fun experiment i did a while back was to do exactly that . I used two home made powergrowers i made out of 5 gallon buckets u know the ones with the ciphen water system. well i found that the best way to maintain a precise stable ph was to ph after the nutrients are added .

[00420]

ok, i have decided to group my nutes/additives by the way they affect my pH...

one group that raises pH and another that lowers pH...

i have also started to check my pH LAST...after whatever i am adding to the water, but just before i water the plants with it.

is this a good way to go about it?

i think i will use less pH adjusters this way...we'll see. :chin:


i add my nute's by AN's 2+ chart..in the order it say's then adjust ph

[Sleepy]

...so i'm on the right track then?? :confused:
http://www.icmag.com/gallery/data/500/36795918snowcavy_17459-thumb.gif (http://www.icmag.com/gallery/data/500/36795918snowcavy_17459.gif)

[mrwags]

I myself fill my rez with plain water except for 5 gallons shy. Then I fill a 5 gallon water bottle 1/2 full and mix the PBP and Liquid Karma together (the 2 heaviest) and shake the shit out of it for a few dump in the rez then 1/2 fill again and mix the remainder of the nute's.I never adjust ph before nutes it is a waste, by using the PBP tho I hardly every adjust but having a nutra drip meter in the rez makes for a lot of RESTFULL nights knowing exactly whats up without having to dip all the damn time. Oh and Sleepy I got a Christmas gift for ya brother if ya can use it?

my 2 cents

Mr.Wags