PBP users post your formula [Archive] - International Cannagraphic Magazine Forums

3legdog

06-30-2005, 02:44 PM

Very nice thread & the PBP line is my favorite bottled fert. & i have been using it for more than 2yrs'. It is the easiest i ve found to mix & keep the ph in acceptable range without having to add a bunch of adjuster.

Before i forget i wanted to comment on bartenders' cal/mag post. It absolutly does have some validity as i have used that cal/mag when i go with rain water or distilled & my plants do not seem to uptake their diet as well. Mabey its' just me also but this cal/mag (w/nuts.) thing definetly deserves some more research...i wont' be using it anymore with nutrients but think it is a great thing with 'stripped' water which for some crazy reason has a tendency to upset my ph in my soil mix(swings/drifts) if i use it too often w/o a suppliment..not to mention the obvious of starving my plants/depleting my soils reserve.

My soil mix is primarly promix-bx with w.c., & perlite added. I also use kelp meal & greensand & of course dolimitic garden lime. I dont feed much at all in veg but when i do i go 1/2 strength with the veg form. & use 1/4 strength LKarma.
In flowering is when i go heavy with the BotanicarePBP flower formula. I usually go full strength eow (sometimes 3rd) once the plants are full size & have started flowering. I also let the solution sit a couple days & the ph stabilizes at around 6.5 all on its own....a very nice playr' this PBP. I have gone really strong w/ the flower formula late in flowering also when the plants are really feeding well (usually around week 5 or 6) on my tds meter i get as high as 1400ppm with my nuts' in flowering. I realize that with organic nutrients it is hard to get an acurate disolved solid reading but i find the meter/pen to do fine with giving me a base line to go by with my guano teas & all. Gettn' long winded again...damn :bat: i ll leave it at that

Thanks for a nice thread ST :yes: & may everyones garden be blessed with uncontrolable fat frosty colas. Peace 3legs

Heres a few plants that i used the PBP on exclusivly thus far...ahh but guano tea is in their future very soon. I often switch around between the EJ / PBP /guano & worm c. tea / & the NH fish fert all these ferts' really work great at diff. stages in growth to help hit those huge growth spurts/bursts :woohoo: :wave:

http://www.icmag.com/gallery/data/500/5284100_2798-thumb.JPG (http://www.icmag.com/gallery/data/500/5284100_2798.JPG)

http://www.icmag.com/gallery/data/500/5284100_2702-thumb.JPG (http://www.icmag.com/gallery/data/500/5284100_2702.JPG)

http://www.icmag.com/gallery/data/500/5284100_2779-thumb.JPG (http://www.icmag.com/gallery/data/500/5284100_2779.JPG)

Octagoner

07-01-2005, 12:12 AM

PBP feeding schedule Ebb and Flow Octagon:

Using PBPGrow through veg < 500 ppm including Cal Mag and Karma as foliar. Also Hygrozyme 8 mils/gal and American Agritech Hydroguard at 15 mil/gal

PBP Bloom @ 700-800 ppm including Cal Mag, IronStar, Hydroguard week 5

PBP Bloom @ 700 ppm including Cal Mag, IronStar, Hydroplex week 6

Substitute PBPSoil (used to be called ripening) @ 650-700 ppm including Cal Mag, Ironstar and am now trying Botanicare "Sweet" which just came out, week 7

Will substitute Flora Kleen for Clearex and voila A-train is finished (AK-47 x Trainwreck)

Am using grounded pumps, but magnetic field will lockout calcuim and iron so that's why I like the Cal Mag and Ironstar. Also use American Agritechs proprietary pH down which is Hydrochloric acid and citric acid.

Really cool you guys are here!

bartender187

07-01-2005, 12:18 AM

thanks 3legdog for the input. yeah that cal/mag conundrum would make an interestin scientific experiment. hopefully growdoc will come in and shed some light on the subject.

btw- my soil mixture is 1:1:1 WC:Perlite:Pro Mix. Feed em 1/4str PBP as seedlins, and slowly work my way up to full str. Sometimes ill add Liquid Karma, and/or EN/EA.

What is a good MicroNutrient solution?

peace

3legdog

07-01-2005, 04:43 AM

The only micronutrient solution i have ever bought/used is the EJ microblast. I make w.c. tea now that does a fine job with the micros & the dolimitic garden lime i powder & add to my soil mix has all sorts of nutritional values in it in addition to the lime. I haven't needed to add anything else i a long time..the microblast in the cabinet has dust on it probably. Take care bartender...everyone & have a nice weekend Peace 3legs :wave:

Oh yea that PBP line fuels the frost...smokn' this burmese now : :bongsmi:
http://www.icmag.com/gallery/data/500/5284100_2883-thumb.JPG (http://www.icmag.com/gallery/data/500/5284100_2883.JPG)

Guest

07-11-2005, 03:45 AM

Question about the pure blend pro "Soil" blend.... I accidentally bought a bottle of this stuff instead of the bloom. Will I be able to use it as my base nute sauce? or should I probably go buy a bottle of that now too?

some of the other organic goodies i picked up are

Ozi Magic Gro Juice Monsta Bud

Liquid Karma

Calmag plus

and Botanicare Sweet

i'm growing in a 4x4 ebb/flow in pure hydroton using tap water..

Hopefully next weekend I will start testing these out.

thanks!

THC

Guest

07-11-2005, 08:02 PM

I just started my use of PBP Fruit & Flower. I also picked up a bottle opf Cal-Mag plus as noted on the bottle.

I first went to strong and had to reduce my nut's by 50%;i.e. removed half and added ro water. Things look much better now and I am looking forward to a total Organic grow throughout the Bloom phase.

I broke my bloom phase in to two phases; ealy and late. In ealy Bloom I use the PBP and Topmax. For late bloom I use aga9n Topmax, Budswell Bat guano and wrom castings and Indonesian Bat guano; high phosphuros for enhanced fruiting. I finish up with plain water and usualy ro water and dark for 3-7 days, depending on the strain.

I have already tasted the difference in my smoke using this new nutrient package. Improved taste in aeroponic hydro.

The PBP is still going to be trial and error process until I get it better understood.

God Luck.

Avid

Guest

07-12-2005, 07:52 AM

I picked up some Sweet and Hydroplex today for a little whirl around the yard.

Organic Advanced Nutreints was on the shelf as well :chin:

Tex

sunnyside

07-12-2005, 09:45 PM

Question about the pure blend pro "Soil" blend.... I accidentally bought a bottle of this stuff instead of the bloom. Will I be able to use it as my base nute sauce? or should I probably go buy a bottle of that now too?

THC

no you are fine...the only difference is that the soil formula has more phosphorus in it...something about how the micros in the soil feed off of phos. Alot of hydro growers switch to the soil formula in the end just to boost the phos a bit. :) :)

3legdog

07-14-2005, 07:37 PM

I rescently saw that Botanicare (PBP) has come out with "Sweet" & wonder if it is similar to the EJ catalyst i often use in flowering. Once some of you start using it i'd love to hear your feedback. Peace all & have a nice weekend 3ld :wave: :Bolt:
http://www.icmag.com/gallery/data/500/5284100_2172-thumb.JPG (http://www.icmag.com/gallery/data/500/5284100_2172.JPG) this burmese loves her PBP diet...fuels the frost :joint:

Guest

07-18-2005, 07:00 AM

damn 3leg, that's an awesome lookin girl.

Sweet is an organic carbohydrate synthisizer , whatever that means!

THC

Guest

07-23-2005, 01:57 AM

The soil version has less N also so this works well after the stretch is finished. Some guys like to have the extra N in the hydro version to mid flowering then switch to the soil version for the last couple of weeks.

I use ro water, add cal mag at 4 ml per gal to get 300ppm, I do this first, then add the nutes at about half strenghth. 400 to 600 ppm veg. and 800 to 1200 ppm bloom. My AK's have loved this so far. I also run cannazyme and have had great luck with it.

GroNut

Guest

09-06-2005, 03:12 AM

IS Cal-Mag really that important? I use LK and PBP. I have only tested the pH and its high of course cause im on well water out here in the boonies. Also do the flush solutions have that much of an advantage over just plain water?

SuperToker

09-06-2005, 04:00 AM

if your using ro water, yes. if your using tap water, its best to use calmag aswell but not absolutely required.

20kw dreams

09-07-2005, 10:24 PM

Fuck, Fuck, Fuck!!! I just erased a long ass post.

Anyways, Botanicare is the shit. I love the stuff. My ph is always perfect. In fact, it takes 10 days for the ph to start getting whack, which I see as a sign of nutrient imbalance.

About half of the "additives" I use are actually nutrients. Cal-Mag and Canna PK 13/14 are straight up fertilizers, and not really additives, as they contain nothing but nutrients. LK is a mostly additive additive, but I think it has some N in it or something, which you should just at least take note of. I'm actually using Floralicious this run, cause I had it sitting around and wanted to get rid of it. While Floralicious is basically GH's version of the all around seaweed extract additive, comparible to LK, it does have a 1:1:1, which makes it a fert as well as an additive. Anyways, I think that is important to notice for newcomers. If you read my ppm's, they are at like 400-500 ppm after adding the additives, when I only run at like 800ppm's, but that is mainly because of all the ferts in the additives.

These are all the additives and/or, and why I use them. Some of them are necessities for healthy plants, and others just...helpful:D If you are starting out growing, I would suggest trying to keep your nutrients and additives to a minimum. This will make it easier to identify problems.

Superthrive (not necessary): Cause it's cheap, and old schoolers say it works. Helps root cell division and ease stress. Only use in veg.

Hydrogaurd(Helpful for root rotvprevention): I started using enzyme products cause I used to get root rot bad. I would recommend Cannazyme if you expect a hefty battle w/ root rot, as Hydrogaurd is a lightweight in this category. My rot was so prevalent, I got a water chiller. I did however not use Hydrogaurd this run, and although I don't have root rot or unhealthy roots by any means, my roots are not staying as sparkling white as they did when I use Hydrogaurd, so I will always use it from this run on, unless the SM-90 ends up giving my roots that brilliance

Canna PK 13/14(not necessary): GOD DAMN! THIS SHIT WORKS!! I have never had trichomes on the fan leaves by the end of the 3rd week into flower until I started using this shit. The buds really do get frosty as fuck, and pack on the wieght. I use Bramsky's(I think) formula of 1ml/ltr from weeks 3-6, instead of the bottles recommended dose of 1.5ml/gal. He went through like 5 runs testing out different dosages over different periods, and found that to be the most effective. Actually, I start the first week of using it at .75 ml, and maybe the last week too. It is really easy to burn w/ this stuff, so watch closely for burns. If you are burning them, back the PK off to .5ml/liter. Use it though, or something similar at least. I have thought about using Hydroplex, but this shit works so well, I'm afraid to leave it:D

Cal-Mag(necessary if using R.O. water) - Because the PBP line is meant for tap water. If your tap is real bad, like over 300ppm, you should use RO water and Cal-Mag

LK, Floralicious(not necessary) - I think most people agree, including myself, that some kind of one of these seaweed based additives is a must for maximum growth. I view most of them the same really, and have not, nor really will try to, do a comparison. I like LK because they list the ingredients, but I like the nasty smell from the Floralicious.

SM-90 (not necessary) - A surfacent. This stuff helps to keep the roots, rez, and misters clean. sortIt does work as far as that goes. This is my first run using it, and I started using it just a couple of weeks ago. Pretty handy stuff. It is also suppose to be useful against critters of all sorts too, including mites, which are bad in my area, and destroyed my last crop.

I grow in a Lothar aero/NFT setup fitted w/ high pressure pump and misters.

Here's my routine: First, I add the additives. Like I mentioned before^, this will be about half of the PPM's. Then I add the Base nute(PBP) to reach the desired PPM. 300-350 early veg(6-8"), 500-600 bigger veg(10-12"), 750-850 flower. I adjust the nute level so that it stays the same, or goes slightly down every day. That is to say: If my PPM is say 800, and the next day it is 830, then I know it is too high, and I need to bring it down to say 750. At 750, it might be say 744 the next day, so I will leave it, and just keep check it daily. If it goes down too low, I will raise it back up. It is perfect if the ppm's stay close to the same every day, which rarely happens, as the plant goes through different processes and uses different amounts of nutrients.

I change my rez once a week. I drain it about 80%, and refill it w/ RO water and SM-90 on Saturday. I let that run overnight, and into the next day for a good flush. The afternoon or so the next day, I throw in the additives and Base nutes, and start the week all over.

Take note: My gallon of Cal-Mag is a little more then 3 x the strength in PPM's it says on the bottle. A rep at Botanicare told me I should go by the PPM's, and not the bottle. for me 1.5ml = approximately what the bottle says for 5ml. Everyone here should check that if they are having problems, because it was giving me serious problems before I called them up on it.

I have divided my flowering into 4 stages: Transition, Flowering, Finish, and flush. Basically, I use a mix of veg/bloom in transition, stop the superthrive and start the PK booster and straight PBP Bloom in the flowering, Stop the PK and PBP bloom and start the PBP"soil" bloom in finish, and run at 1/4 strength for a couple days to flush.

And finally, Here's my schedule, assuming an 8 week strain.
Veg:
Superthrive - couple drops per gallon
Liquid Karma - 10ml/gal
Hydrogaurd - 15ml/gal
SM-90 - 3ml/gal
Cal-Mag - 1ml/gal
Pure Blend Pro Grow - Add to desired PPM

Transitional (week 1 & 2 of 12/12)
Basically, everything is the same, except use a 50/50 mix of PBP bloom and grow base ferts. I used to switch straight to bloom formula at the onset of 12/12, but I used a transitional formula of Botanicares "Triflex" series this time around, and definately am having much lusher growth as a result.

Flowering (weeks 3 - 6)
Start Canna PK 13/14 @ .75-1ml/liter
Stop Superthrive
Hydrogaurd - 15ml/gal
Liquid Karma - 15ml/gal
SM-90 - 3ml/gal
Cal-Mag - 3ml/gal
Switch from veg/bloom mix to PBP Bloom - Top to desired PPM.

Finish (weeks 7 & 8)
Stop Canna PK 13/14
Hydrogaurd - 15ml/gal
Liquid Karma - 15ml/gal
SM-90 - 3ml/gal
Cal-Mag - 2ml/gal
Switch from PBP Bloom to PBP Bloom "Soil" - Top to desired ppm
I think I may get some additive called "Overdrive" this time, but I don't know yet.

Flush(last couple days)
I just drain the rez 3/4, and refill w/ RO water. You may want to use an organic flushing agent.

I am also looking into cutting out the Cal-Mag from the finishing stage, as it is the only non-organic at that time.

I also mess w/ the lighting at the end of flower if I want a strain to "finish on time", and it appears as if it will not on it's own. This just means I cut the lights back to 8 or 10 hours, dependant on how much of a push they need, to hurry the gals up a bit. This is the method that makes sense to me, compared to the 48 hours dark thing. That's just me though, and is only intended to help them by a few days, or a week. I definately would never try to push a sative by 3 weeks or something. If you do, you'll most likely just end up w/ scragly premature herbs.

Holy cow! I just meant to post my schedule, and then I ended up writing all this! lol..

Well, there it is, anyways.

sunnyside

09-07-2005, 11:04 PM

20kw...that is one of the best posts I have seen in a long time. WELCOME TO ICMAG!! Make yourself at home, we need more posts like that on these boards. Nice handle too :)

20kw dreams

09-07-2005, 11:19 PM

lol..Yeah, I was impressed w/ that one too! So impressed, I made it a thread over at OG:D

Thank you for the warm welcome sunnyside I've been hearing great things about the atmosphere over here.

mrwags

09-08-2005, 10:42 AM

I gotta concede with sunny regarding a foolproof dummy plan to grow well done 20kw,I have seen your post before and welcome you to our humble little hide out all input is welcome. I got hooked on Bio Products about a year ago by my Mentor Texas Kid and have some fine grows to show over at the Organic Hydro section and must say my pen has dust on it. These products as I have well stated cost a little extra to use as a complete grow line but damn aren't the kids worth a few extra bucks. Try the line Once watch your plants they will tell you what they want follow the above post and you will have this to show for it in a few months:

http://www.icmag.com/gallery/data/500/21029_5_IMG_0007-thumb.JPG (http://www.icmag.com/gallery/data/500/21029_5_IMG_0007.JPG)

http://www.icmag.com/gallery/data/500/21029_5_IMG_0008-thumb.JPG (http://www.icmag.com/gallery/data/500/21029_5_IMG_0008.JPG)

http://www.icmag.com/gallery/data/500/21029_1_IMG_0006-thumb.JPG (http://www.icmag.com/gallery/data/500/21029_1_IMG_0006.JPG)

Mr.Wags

Guest

09-24-2005, 10:00 PM

My first grow with PBP, and I'm using the following:

3 gal. R.O. Water
30ml Liquid Karma
5ml CalMag +
10ml Fox Farm Big Bloom
20ml of PBP Bloom

EC is at 1.1 and pH is at 5.6

aeric

11-13-2005, 06:37 AM

awesome thread!

Guest

01-31-2006, 05:34 AM

PBP is the best thing since sliced bread. I'm not even going to try anything else. I use the veg , bloom, bloom for soil and Cal Mag. That's it, I can't see a need for anything else. Oh yeah RO water and no need for a pH meter or a TDS meter anymore. I haven't used pH up or down since I started using it, the pH goes way down at first but it doesn't seem to matter. PBP is 50 ppms per Ml, and since I have my strains dialed in I don't even break out my TDS meter...god it couldn't get any easier. If you are lazy like me PBP is the stuff.

Guest

01-31-2006, 05:45 AM

Puppetmug,

How much cal mag do use use per gallon of RO and what grow method do you use?

thx

Guest

01-31-2006, 07:28 AM

I use 25 Ml per 5 gallons (so 5 Ml per gallon) cal mag. I am a Sog, F&D guy. Man, I used to use GH, and it's like night and day.

Oh yeah Im use dwc tubs for mother plants.

OldSoG

02-02-2006, 06:42 PM

regardless of water type or medium i use 15ml of pure blend pro per gal. SWEET contains 1.5% magnesium so when used in conjunction with pbp(.5%mag) you'll get your magnesium up to 2%. if i used RO water i would probably use SWEET instead CALMAG.

calmag should be used at 5ml per gal for RO water and added before the pbp.

peace,
OS

Guest

02-05-2006, 04:07 AM

W'sup OldSog, the reason that I ask about dosage and grow method is that on my last run I had overdone the N and traced that back to the CalMag I used (5 ml per gal ro). I use no medium in aeroponics so no buffering to help with mistakes There is a descrepancy in the label's dosage reccomendations and what they say is in that dose.... I'll look for it.

http://www.icmag.com/gallery/data/500/5610AeroBox_120-thumb.jpg (http://www.icmag.com/gallery/data/500/5610AeroBox_120.jpg)

http://www.icmag.com/gallery/data/500/5610AeroBox_096-thumb.jpg (http://www.icmag.com/gallery/data/500/5610AeroBox_096.jpg)

Guest

02-06-2006, 12:28 AM

This is my concern:

Cal-Mag Plus

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Cal-Mag Label:

Use 1-2 tsp (5-10ml) per gallon of nutrient solution. Two tsp will achieve a supplment of:
(N) 52ppm
(Ca) 83ppm
(Mg) 31ppm
(Fe) 2.5ppm

That's 168.5ppm. Who knows what conversion factor they use when even mentioning ppm. Nonetheless, 5ml in a gallon of R/O (12 u/s) results in 485 u/s. The most generous of conversion factors commonly used is a .5 which would still be 242ppm.

The label on my pure blend pro calls for 5ml/g of Cal-Mag if using R/O water. 5ml should equate to 84.25ppm if going off their label. Again, assuming a .5 conversion factor to go from ppm to u/s that should be 168.5 u/s as a base before adding the pure blend pro.

Am I missing something here or is my bottle 300% strength or something? Certainly would explain why I've wanted to throw this stuff away in the past. I understand it's a 'Guaranteed MINIMUM Analysis' and a fairly common practice is for manufacturers to gives just a little more to stay on the safe side, but 300% might be a little detrimental. On the bright side, I guess it's going to last a lot longer (unless I'm missing something here, which is my real question to you all).

This is where I found some trouble with cal-mag...

Lucas

02-09-2006, 01:46 AM

> That's 168.5ppm. Who knows what conversion factor they use when even mentioning ppm

you cant add up the active ingredients, which is what they are listing, and come up with a matching EC. The two values, though both referred to as ppm, are totally unrelated.

EC is the electrical conductivity, and for hydro there is a conversion factor called 4-4-2, or .7 conversion, that attempts to guesstimate the net ppms of the solution.

but the ppms that is calculated mathematically from the percentage of each nutrient on the label, is a totally different animal. For example, N does not read on a TDS or EC meter, but it certainly has ppms in the solution if you do the math of the percentage ingredients on the label.

for example
GH Flora Micro @8ml/gal plus 16ml/gal of Flora Bloom has an EC of about 1.9, approximately 1330ppm of TDS on a .7 conversion meter.

However, if you add up the results of the guaranteed analysis, you will only get a total of 673 ppm accounted for

with PBPBloom @15ml/gal plus 5ml/gal Cal Mag, you may get an EC of about 1.8 and a .7 conversion TDS of about 1270, but the calculated ppms will only be 568ppm

I do recommend the PBPBloom@15ml/gal plus 5ml/gal of Cal Mag. I call it GrowGreen's "Organic" Hydro Formula.

hth
Lucas

aeric

02-09-2006, 03:09 AM

Lucas:

How do you feel about going with PBPB for soil (1.5-4-5) as opposed to the regular, or is that what u already mean? (glad to see you here by the way) ...I cant see how how the regular PBPB has enough P.

puppetmug:
I use the veg , bloom, bloom for soil and Cal Mag.

at what point do you switch to the soil formula, or do you mix them (-pro and pro for soil) at any point?

calmag should be used at 5ml per gal for RO water and added before the pbp.

Great tip

Lucas

02-09-2006, 03:41 AM

IF PB bloom soil has .5% Mg, the result of 15ml/gal pbbsoil plus 5 cal mag is
N 91
P 69
K 164
Mg 39

it looks like a good mix to me. I think especially in soil, it is common to use lower strengths of nutes, because they can build up in the medium over successive irrigations. I especially like that it is closer to a 1-1-2 ratio between the N-P-K

now here is 15 PBPBloom plus 5 cal mag
161
45
214
45

The PBPBloom version of the formula has more of a 2-.5-2 NPK ratio, which to me is more of a veg formula than a bloom formula..

but I cant deny that folks get great results with the PBPBloom product combined with Cal Mag, regardless what I think of the numbers and ratios

I think overall, that the plants are happy in a pretty wide range of nute levels and proportions, and in some cases nutes that seem weak, are not, because of how they accumulate in some styles of growing in pots of medium

btw, the new product, sweet, has epsom salt in it, but not nitrogen. if you use the soil version of PB bloom, I think the extra nitrogen in Cal mag is a better choice, while also boosting the Mg, which is low in PBP

my guess is the PBP mix will produce slightly greener leaves than the PB soil mix, and larger diameter but hollower stems. probably more leaf yield too, although not necessarily more resin.

both recipes probably work fine, but, verify the Mg level on the soil version, I entered it as .5%

the 91ppm of N in the soil formula is rather low, but the N level in PBP Grow is 186ppm, so if you start with that, you are preloading the N levels, in a good way.

PBP Grow @15ml plus 5 cal mag
186
34
171
45

In fact, Im currently interested in learning more about results people have using veg nutes with close to 200ppm of N, during the first 3 weeks of bloom. It seems it could be a nice yield enhancer.

I wonder what puppetmug does? I mean when he switches from grow to bloom nutes.. Im glad you asked him..

Lucas

marimbas

02-09-2006, 03:42 AM

are you the lucas who made the hydro formula for GH nutes??

Guest

02-09-2006, 06:33 AM

The coco and hydroton mix your using is doing fine things in my cab.
I supplement with LKarma (1/4 stregth) and calmag (half dose), I switched to the ProSoil Bloom formula in flowering, love it at half stregth every watering.
I don't supplement with anything but occasionnaly I'll feed them a worm casating teas with molasses when I think they've had their fill of nutes for awhile.
This medium mix dries out quickfast so tweaking is simple, of course I got bored and got 2 bubblers working again...idle hands.

Lucas

02-10-2006, 12:12 AM

> are you the lucas who made the hydro formula for GH nutes??

yes

but the truth is, it was not my idea, the credit belongs to my mentor, named pH

I took what pH learned about the 0-8-16 recipe working with ebb and flow, and applied it to Highgrades bubbler concept. Somebody at CW started reefering to the formula as the Lucas Formula, and the name stuck. It refers to 8ml Micro, plus 16ml Bloom as a one size fits all nutrient recipe for hydro.

Then GenHydro came out with the same mix in one bottle, called FloraNovaBloom... I have never met or worked with them, they just seem to have picked up on the chatter in the forums, and mixed their recipe to match the values of the 0-8-16 mix.

Now I use pH's spreadsheet to compare the different nutes people use..

here is a link to pH's website
http://www.angelfire.com/cantina/fourtwenty/

thanks for making me feel welcome at icmag too!

take care
Lucas

all_is_1

02-11-2006, 07:18 PM

pHenomenal discussion everyone its great to see some people who aren't newbie's or idiot's or assholes around. I just came over from OG so I hope we can bring this kind of culture from OG and not the negative condescending one that was becoming so prevalent over there.

I was just curious as to what kind of yields you guys are getting. Is anyone getting the 1g/1w/60 days with PBP in hydro setups? My friend gets amazing results using PBP in a drip-to-waste setup using Soma NYC Diesal but he only gets about 1lb/1kw/75 days. Makes no sense to me since plant health is good.

I get about 1g/1kw/60 days using AN's Iguana Juice in Soil. I have found Iguana Juice to be superior to PBP when growing in soil. However, I have no experience using it in a hydro setup--AN claims that it will work well however in essentially any hydro setup--though I doubt it would do well in Aero setups because it is quite thick and viscous.

BIG IMPORTANT QUESTION REGARDING ORGANIC NUTRIENTS:

How do we as customers determine the level of mineralization in our commercially purchased organic nutrients? As I understand it, there are essentially 3 benefits of using a commercial formulation over making your own compost tea:

1. They are (usually) formulated for MJ growth by a plant PHD.
2. They are easily used vs. compost teas are kind of a pain in the ass and generally they are prefiltered for particle size.
3. IMPORTANT FOR ORGANIC HYDRO: They are more MINERALIZED!! I.E. the complex organic molecules that are in bat guano, kelp meal, etc. have been somewhat broken down alreadly by some kind of enzymatic/mechanical digestion process at the plant and thus they are much FASTER acting forms that ones own compost tea would be. For hydro setups, where the resovoir is changed weekly, the rate of mineralization is very important for plant growth.

I talked to one of AN's help guys on the phone and he gave me a great idea: In organic hydro, where the micro-fauna are so important, he said to fill a container with a lid full of hydroton, bio-balls (purchased at a pet store for keeping bacteria alive in fish tanks), lava rock, etc and poke holes in it so water can flow in and out. Then, put that container in your resovoir and it will act as a "home" for all of the beneficial microbes and thus increase the rate of availability of organic nutrients and help preven t invasive species like pythium from being able to take hold in your system. I haven't tried that yet since I haven't yet made the switch to hydro but sounds like a great idea to me. Peace everyone.

cheetos

02-13-2006, 05:51 AM

does anybody have an opinion on the triflex? Im either gonna go with that or the pbp. Gonna go 250hps, dwc buckets, scrog. Any opinions on which way is better.

all_is_1

02-16-2006, 05:19 AM

triflex is a mineral fertilizer, pbp is an organic (or almost-organic, depending on who you talk to) fertilizer, so if you're looking for tops in flavor and aroma and smoothness of smoke, go with pbp. If done right organics yield just as much as mineral nutrients anyway.

cheetos

02-16-2006, 06:43 AM

flavor and smoothness are important to me. so yeah ill stick with the pbp. Besided everyone in this thread seems to love it. thanks for the insight.

cheetos

02-17-2006, 02:55 AM

well i went and got the triflex anyway. I thought id give it a try for shits and giggles. And if it does suck that bad ill just replace it. Ill let ya all know how it goes.

aeric

02-17-2006, 03:26 AM

Dr. Lynette Morgan says that in order to use "teas" (as in a guano, or worm castings tea) in hydro they have to be bubbled for a few days. After a few days one sees a froth that contains beneficial bacteria that will then make your tea more available to the plants. A bio-filter does the same, and IMO is essential when using any organics in hydro (more specifically- water culture). A biofilter, however depends on fairly stable pH for survival. Recirculating, large water volume, fulvic acid etc...can achieve this.

Guest

02-19-2006, 06:18 PM

so can a fella get some specific opinions on botanicare's supplemental additives like silica blast, sweet organic carbohydrate, liquid karma, and blast off? i will say without even flushing GH, some of the smoothest smoke out there.. but I'm gonan give pbp a shot anyhow.. ;)

thanks for the great post btw 20kw dreams, i'd +k you up but i already done did it elsewhere it says

all_is_1

02-20-2006, 06:37 AM

Hmmmm... I have to say that I wholeheartedly disagree that GH nutes provide a smooth smoke with or without flushing. . . Perhaps I'm more sensitive than most or you haven't tried truly organic sensi before. (I'm not trying to be condescending but I have smoked tons of GH herb and OG herb and personally have found there to be an enormous difference).

AERIC: Dr. Lynette Morgan knows her shit for SURE. Thanks for the quote. Did you find that on the "Growing edge" website? I've read some of her stuff but couldn't find all that much on OG hydro. When you say "bio-filter" do you mean a slow-sand filter like Overgrow detailed? Or something else? Also, does fulvic acid help keep pH stable? I've never heard of that personally but what do I know. . . Cervantes states clearly in his book that pH is actually MORE important in organic soil gardens since pH dictates the environment in which the beneficials propagate and live--probably just as true in hydro. Peace all.

aeric

02-20-2006, 09:37 AM

all_is_1 : yeah she is the real deal...she's got a bunch of books I would like to check out soon. I got that from an article in the actual magazine from a year or so ago, don't know if it is on the site, will check.

By bio-filter I mean any filter that is biologically active, but a more typical one would use lava/pumice as the main media, like the process used in an aquaponics system or bio-buckets. The rockwool bio-filter on OG seemed IMO even better, but more nuanced/difficult to run.

sunnyside

02-20-2006, 10:49 AM

The guy who owns Growing Edge,Tom Alexander, is the same guy who used to own Sinsemilla Tips. I'd say GE is pot friendly :)

Guest

02-20-2006, 02:14 PM

not about to sit here and argue with you about my buds that you did not smoke, allis1 =) but thanks for addressing my questions.....bro......

Lucas

02-20-2006, 10:01 PM

> so can a fella get some specific opinions on botanicare's supplemental additives like silica blast, sweet organic carbohydrate, liquid karma, and blast off?

I personally recommend AGAINST all additives until you are able to grow good medicine with a simple recipe. For example, 15ml/gal Pure Blend Pro plus 5ml per gal Cal Mag. If that mix does not work for you, there is something wrong with your system environment. Additives do nothing to correct for bad environment.

You cant imagine how many people with too warm water, go for hydroguard. Or how many people with spotted leaves from using too little nutrient, decide to buy Liquid Karma.

Sweet btw, is a Magnesium supplement. So is Cal Mag. Pure Blend Pro below EC 1.5 is guaranteed to cause numerous nutrient deficiencies, that can be fixed by using a stronger mix. Additives are just a way to make the mix stronger.

I know someone who claims they use Canna, but they use it at half of mfg recommended dosage. To solve all the problems caused by this weak nute mix, they add Kaching, Sweet, Rhyzotonic, and a bunch of other P and K boosters. They end up with nutrient overdoses of P and deficiencies of Mg and K, because they grow by "feel" and have no idea what they are actually feeding.

I agree completely that buds grown with GH nutes at proper dosage, do not need flushing.

Flushing is for folks who play around guessing at what to feed, and then have to wash it all out cause they have no idea whats going on with the plants nutrient levels.

just my opinion
Lucas

Guest

02-21-2006, 12:20 AM

lucas.. you are the jesus of nutrients.. thank you so much (and it was your formula of course that I was using with GH..) thank you for taking the time to respond.. I appreciate it very much.

all_is_1

02-21-2006, 03:10 AM

hmmmm. . . I find the comments regarding gh nutes and flushing fascinating. Definetly not trying to argue about anything--just trying to relate my personal experience. Most of the GH grown herb that I've smoked was grown by a grower using the the typical 1-1-1 mix, not the lucas formula. However, plant health was excellent the whole way through, he generally yields well over 1 gram/1 watt, and he flushes periodically (every 1-2weeks). What am I missing here? Do you guys just smoke all hydro all the time or does the different ratio of grow-micro-bloom in the "lucas" formula make a big difference in taste/smoke? (Seems unlikely but I suppose if the nutrient formula is closer to what the plant is actually using perhaps there is less buildup of nutrients in the plant. . . )

Lucas: I couldn't agree more about your assesment of additives in general--I have seen so much great herb grown with few or no additives that sometimes I feel silly because I still use them. One of my best crops ever was grown in coco/promix/perlite with just AN iguana juice.

Aeric: thanks for the reply--my feelings exactly. I was considering builiding a slow sand/rockwool filter but it seemed quite 'nuanced' to put it lightly without having anyone to physically show me how to use it.

Peace!

Coco Nuts

02-21-2006, 03:29 AM

I personally recommend AGAINST all additives until you are able to grow good medicine with a simple recipe. For example, 15ml/gal Pure Blend Pro plus 5ml per gal Cal Mag. If that mix does not work for you, there is something wrong with your system environment.

Are you basing that +5ml CalMag off of R/O or Tap? Is your 15+5 the 'ratio' that should be futher diluted to necessary strength depending on the plant?

Sweet btw, is a Magnesium supplement. So is Cal Mag. Pure Blend Pro below EC 1.5 is guaranteed to cause numerous nutrient deficiencies, that can be fixed by using a stronger mix. Additives are just a way to make the mix stronger.

So 1.5 starting how long from seed (in general)? Btw, I feed only 1.1EC with Micro(1):Bloom(2) ratio and don't seem to have any deficiences.

Less is more, or is more more? Guess it depends on who you ask!

I agree completely that buds grown with GH nutes at proper dosage, do not need flushing.

I 'spose as long as the proper dosage includes tapering off. I find that about around day 40 (on a 63 day strain) the runoff EC starts to rise and rise. If I'm watering with 1.5 it can get as high as 2.3 coming out. This tells me it isn't eating all that.

Lucas

02-21-2006, 04:42 AM

thanks for the considerate discussion

I dont know enough to say whether there are organic buds that taste better than well grown GH buds

I find indoor bud more resinous than outdoor, and I have yet to find what I consider to be an "organic" nute for hydro.. but I have smoked bud grown with Fox Grow Big and Pure Blend Pro that was not chemmy, as well as bud grown with GH that was not chemmy..

they were bubbler grows, at 2.0EC

I have had bud that tasted bad, grown with products and medium irrigation strategies, that accumulated too much N or P

I think those are the main culprits in chemmy tasting bud.. high N tastes very green and like hay, high P tastes metalic, and at really high levels, the medicine itself sends of sparks like a sparkler

> Most of the GH grown herb that I've smoked was grown by a grower using the the typical 1-1-1 mix, not the lucas formula.

I think the typical GH bloom mix is actually called 1-2-3, and it means 1 teaspoon of GH Flora Grow, plus 2 teaspoons of GH Flora Micro, plus 3 teaspoons of Bloom.. in mililiters thats 5g-10m-15b (grow-micro-bloom)

the NPK and Mg levels of that mix are:
191
106
251
76

by comparison, the Lucas Formula, uses 0g-8m-16b, the NPK Mg results are
130
106
183
73

not a big difference in the two mixes, but the GH factory version is higher in N and K

I dont think either value is too high for a bubbler

however, if someone was to use those mixes in pots of soil, handwatered, or soilless mix, it is likely that the EC could build up inside the medium, depending how often the plants are fed.. every watering, every other watering, every third watering..

> However, plant health was excellent the whole way through, he generally yields well over 1 gram/1 watt, and he flushes periodically (every 1-2weeks). What am I missing here?

the only place I see a potential for chemmy taste using GH is if the EC in the pot goes over 2.4

> Do you guys just smoke all hydro all the time

I do actually, yes
I find indoor superior to outdoor, and I think outdoor is much easier to grow organically..

or does the different ratio of grow-micro-bloom in the "lucas" formula make a big difference in taste/smoke?

I dont think the ratios are different enough to cause chemmy taste. I do think it is possible that handwatered pots can build up too much nutes, depending how they are watered...

if flushing is being used, its probably due to overfeeding in the first place

> I suppose if the nutrient formula is closer to what the plant is actually using perhaps there is less buildup of nutrients in the plant. . .

yes, I think it also has mainly to do with how high the EC gets. pots of medium build up nutes EC more than a DWC bubbler does

> Are you basing that +5ml CalMag off of R/O or Tap? Is your 15+5 the 'ratio' that should be futher diluted to necessary strength depending on the plant?

15pbpb +5cal mag is a spec tested by GrowGreen in RO water.. Yes I would use that ratio for addbacks, with the goal being to use a strong enough addback to produce an EC near 2.0

I call 15pbp 5 call mag GrowGreen's Formula, here are the NPK's
128
42
164
67

GG belongs to the gram a watt club, so it would seem the low P level in the mix is not a problem, though personally, I find it hard to keep the pH of PBP stable.. I think it would work better with Tap Water in the 2-300ppm range, cause that might need pH down, which would add P.. but I digress..

> If I'm watering with 1.5 it can get as high as 2.3 coming out. This tells me it isn't eating all that.

total agreement
and yes, near harvest it is not uncommon to allow the nutes levels in a bubbler or ebb flow, to drop from EC 2.0 down to as low as EC 1.0, by simply not using nutes additions during the last week, and letting the reservoir get diluted.. by topping up with non nuted water.

I agree plants dont seem to draw the EC down very fast in the last couple of weeks of bloom..

as a side note observation
most people who speak of flushing, are correctly feeling the needs of their plants, I do trust that people do know when their plants look unhappy..

however, its seems to me that most systems that need flushing, are allowing nutes to build up, due to the feeding frequency exceeding the plants needs

there is a trend in hydro nutes, that the ones meant for Water Culture, are stronger than the ones meant for soilless medium..

I think both DWC and soiless operate under the same effective EC levels in the root zone, but the medium based grows end up running higher in EC if the grower feeds the same formula that works in DWC.. in a way, DWC is constantly being flushed.. essentially keeping the EC from going above 2.0

Lucas Longwind Pontificatus

sunnyside

02-21-2006, 04:56 AM

> Do you guys just smoke all hydro all the time

I do actually, yes
I find indoor superior to outdoor, and I think outdoor is much easier to grow organically..

Lucas Longwind Pontificatus

lucas my brother...you are missing out. Indoor organic soil bud is the finest experience in the world. :) The best hydro doesnt' compare...

all_is_1

02-21-2006, 07:35 AM

Lucas: Your clear and concise responses are so refreshing--so few people online write well and I can't tell you how much more knowledge gets passed when people take the time to actually explain themselves CLEARLY.
I'm not a GH man myself, as you might have noticed, so I probably misspoke with the 1-1-1 ratio.
NOTE: What EC METER are you using? The Truncheon? I've heard such widely varying readings from different meters that it's almost irrelevant unless everyone is using the same brand. (I know EC is supposed to be standardized, unlike ppm's, but I just haven't found that to be true in practice.)
The fact that you guys are letting your EC get so low in the last week actually acts as a "flush"--I've read numerous different books that state that flushing with plain water IS NOT AS EFFECTIVE as flushing with MILD nutrient solution--i.e. a mild nutrient solution will effectively remove more built up nutrient from plant tissue than plain water. Also, I've heard numerous different people say that RO water doesn't buffer pH as well as tap water. I only started using RO water a few months ago and my current grow is all-organic soil so I can't say from personal experience, but is that the real deal? In my mind that is a major reason NOT to use RO water. Also, before I forget, my GH 1g/1w friend doesn't use RO water and I would definetly concede the point that the water, rather then the nutrients, might be the cause of his mediocre tasting buds.

sunnyside: I couldn't agree more. I have a 5kW organic soil grow right now for that very reason. I'll post pics tomorrow. Properly grown hydro (in my own experience) is very good, but properly grown organic soil is UNBELIEVABLE. I have found that taste, smoke and, yes I mean this, THE HIGH ITSELF are all so much better with organic soil. I tend to get headaches after coming down from hydro pot and I have not found the same to be true with soil grown herb. One of the possible reasons for this is that any non-organic fertilizer has a higher concentration of HEAVY (i.e. radioactive) metals in it then an organic fertilizer and cannabis is particularly adept at SUCKING up heavy metals and keeping them sequestered until you SMOKE it. According to Cervantes the Russians planted herb all around Chernobyl (nuclear disaster site) so as to suck up all the radioactive elements out of the soil. FUCKING CRAZY, ain't it?

Great discussion all keep it up. Sorry for being so detailed but I'm in the zone cause I just got done studying.

aeric

02-21-2006, 09:36 AM

I'd say GE is pot friendly :)

Yes it's a great mag. In the latest ish they mention the H.M.A. are starting a public campaign to try and let people know that not all hydroponic growers are "underground" growers...haha. Yes, law abiding middle americans also grow hydro ;)

I think those are the main culprits in chemmy tasting bud.. high N tastes very green and like hay, high P tastes metalic, and at really high levels, the medicine itself sends of sparks like a sparkler

Agreed, and from personal experience, even when N or P are not overferted, tapwater can give a chlorine taste which I guess some people also mean by chemmy tasting.

I do think it is possible that handwatered pots can build up too much nutes, depending how they are watered...

I use that to my advantage in early flower, rather than flushing the medium thoroughly after veg., switch to flowering fert right away and let residual N take care of the plants' N needs for the first week or so, then flush. Flushing is IMO very important in a soilless medium because even when fed properly, salt tends to accumulate on top, and occasionally in little pockets deeper in the container. It seems the top mostly acts as a filter for undissolved/accumulated salts, especially calcium/lime if using tapwater. But I have gone whole cycles without flushing, and only tapering off the last week, giving weaker nutes with no serious ill effect.

The cleanest tasting herb for me was outdoor Mexi...maybe it was the sun cure. The worst was when I tried MG "rose food", and didn't even know what hydro nutes were.

Guest

02-21-2006, 07:50 PM

I have a couple things that caught my eye in this thread and most of them relate to the use calmag by Botanicare and the use of coco as a substrate which should be a whole forum on it's own IMHO.

When you use coco it binds calcium and magnesium in it's substrate web, initially it is loaded with potassium which is some growers get twisting leaves early on in their grows until the cal and mag bump the K from the web or the plant is big enough to uptake sufficient K.
This is why coco ferts are higher in Ca+2, Mg+2 and K+, because they get bound up.
If you overdo the calcium and ESPECIALLY magnesium (all you epsom salt users read this) you might interpret it as a N burn, plants get very green but it's not the N it a Mg overload.
You absolutely need to use higher calcium levels in coco than in plain soil, magnesium also but much more calcium.
For a coco mix you should add calmag @ 5ml/gal with every drop of water, I use plain bubbled tap water.
I feed my girls in a 50/50 mix of hydroton and coco half stregth PBPro veg then plain water, then ferts, then water....I bump it up when in flowering.
Ratios and recipies are useless IMHO, water quality, plants size, temps, humidity, strain qualities all mean different needs from one grow to the next but they do provide a base.
I Flush all my plants despite what fertilizer i Use, if the plant was well fed before than it won't miss anything it needs, it'll just feed on the fan leaves for 10 days.

Good thread
Jinx

Lucas

02-22-2006, 05:46 PM

> Indoor organic soil bud is the finest experience in the world

I would like to learn more
can you specify what nutrients and dosages you consider representative of "organic".

> What EC METER are you using?

I use a Hanna HI 98129, its their black combo meter, it reads EC, as well as TDS. I use a .7 conversion for TDS readings.

I think you will find that if people use the same water, and the same amount of nutes, they will get the same EC readings.. TDS readings would also be consistent, so long as the conversion factor is the same..

> I've read numerous different books that state that flushing with plain water IS NOT AS EFFECTIVE as flushing with MILD nutrient solution

Im not familiar with that opinion. It seems counter intuitive.

> I've heard numerous different people say that RO water doesn't buffer pH as well as tap water.

Ive never heard that before, but would be open to reading reference links

> any non-organic fertilizer has a higher concentration of HEAVY (i.e. radioactive) metals in it then an organic fertilizer

respectfully disagree
Rock Phosphate, a common "organic" fertilizer, contains Radioactive isotopes of Lead, called Polonium 210. There is also radioactive Radon in Rock Phosphate. I believe it is this radioactivity that causes cancer. GH nutes are refined so that the Rock Phosphate is purified, removing the radioactive lead and Radon.

to me that means that organic nutes can contain more radioactivity than refined ones... there is more about this in the article on GH's site on organics:
http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:gnewckRLcd4J:ww w.genhydro.com/genhydro_US/quicktips/OrganicHydroponicArticle.pdf

The reason cannabis is so good at removing heavy metals from soil is because it produces so much biomass in such a short time period. Any plant that produces biomass, uptakes heavy metals, but it takes an apple tree much longer than a cannabis plant, to produce the same total weight of plant material to bind elements removed from the soil.

iow, fast growing plants are faster at binding elements from the soil, and also from the air, which is why cannabis is superior to Fir trees at reducing greenhouse gasses, CO2, from the atmosphere..

Im not wanting to be argumentative, and my comments are just my opinions... I do try to give reference links to source materials for my opinions, so others may look at the info and draw their own conclusions..

and again, Im open to reading and learning more

> Flushing is IMO very important in a soilless medium because even when fed properly, salt tends to accumulate on top

I agree tap water causes calcium to build up on top of the medium, especially when pots are allowed to sit in a puddle.

otoh, if the water is not too "hard" (too high in calcium), and if irrigation is done from the top of the pot, and allowed to drain away, there will be little if any accumulation of minerals on top of the medium..

I dont intend to offend anyone by having different opinions, and I am open to reading links anyone provides to help me learn more

> When you use coco it binds calcium and magnesium in it's substrate web, initially it is loaded with potassium which is some growers get twisting leaves early on in their grows until the cal and mag bump the K from the web or the plant is big enough to uptake sufficient K.
This is why coco ferts are higher in Ca+2, Mg+2 and K+, because they get bound up.

Im reading a contradiction.. "it is loaded with potassium (K)"
contradicts, coco ferts are higher in K

If you look at the K level of Canna Aqua, you will find it is 3 times higher than Canna Coco

Canna Aqua Flores 3ml/litre of A plus B (mfg rec)
K 324

Canna Coco from 14ml/gal of A plus B (strongest mfg rec)
K 106

(they supplement canna coco with PK 13 to make up for this low K level, but only after the first 30 days of bloom..) the PK boost raises K levels, temporarily, to
K 317

Both Canna Coco and Canna Aqua are also low in Mg (~40ppm).

imho 60-70ppm of Mg is a good target, which is why I recommend adding 25ppm of Mg, in the form of 1/4 tsp of Epsom per gallon. Over 120ppm of Mg is a problem. (1 teaspoon of epsom provides 100ppm of Mg, more than the plants want, considering the 40ppm already in Canna..

> Ratios and recipies are useless IMHO

If you dont measure your nutes, you are depriving yourself, and those who might learn from your experience, of valuable information. I dont recommend a teaspoon of epsom per gallon, it will hurt your plants, whereas 1/4tsp will help them. But you have to measure to know.

Lucas

mace_ecam

02-22-2006, 06:08 PM

dif. EC meters give the same values for the same solution, if they are functioning properly and have been precisly calibrated ;)

Tap water contains calcium, which reacts with CO2 from the air to calciumcarbonates, creating a pH buffer, around 8ish. When people say that tap water buffers pH better than RO, its usually aquarists speaking, they need a pH around 7-8, so tap has the right pH buffer for them.

from http://www.fishdoc.co.uk/water/hardness.htm
So, as a rule of thumb, hard water is usually well buffered while soft water is usually less well buffered.
Hydro growers need a pH around 5-6, for them tap water buffers the wrong pH, iow, hard water is not optimal.

Good discussion :)

mace

Guest

02-22-2006, 09:40 PM

Don't sweat the contradictions, I was hoping for some as I am always posting to learn and not to teach.

Im reading a contradiction.. "it is loaded with potassium (K)"
contradicts, coco ferts are higher in K
If you look at the K level of Canna Aqua, you will find it is 3 times higher than Canna Coco

Yes it does seem contradictory but there is a good explanation, as least as good as it gets from what I know.
Initially the web is loaded with K, not calcium and magnesium, but as these elements contact the web the bump the K out of the web because of their extra valence electron (mg+2, ca+2 verusu K+).
If you read the Canna site they suggest that you initially flood the medium with a cal/mag additive to release this extra K as young plants can get burnt from it's initial release from the material.
Once the initial K is bumped by the cal/mag then it makes less and less of the web as the plant's progress and the media acidifies, that's why they need to be in increasingly higher amounts as the grow progresses.
The Botanicare Calmag is formulated to balance PBPro's extra needs in coco for both cal and mag, you'll notice PBPro is a little higher than other nutes in K so it can be used in coco without a 2 part formula like canna.

All the deficienty problems I have seen in coco are related to low calcium def's, which to a soil or hydro grower looks like a mag def as it is more common, but in coco it's Ca.

I do use a ppm meter for sure, it is essential for pro results and balance, I just think it is hard to relate these numbers to another grow situation accurately, like anything grow related a certain feel for it is requied.
I could relate a ppm regiment but I hardly grow the same strain the saem way twice, with the same feeding schedule, with the same grow style.
I've done hydro, coco, soil, and mixes all in a short periode so I don't rely on a formulas but I do note them for reference along with ph, I'm sorry if my post made it seem like recording these variables is unimportant, that's not what I meant.

Guest

02-22-2006, 09:47 PM

Hey mace good post there, I have hard water with a starting ppm of 150 (Hanna combo meter), I have a hard time to keep my ph in the low 5's for any length of time which is why I moved to coco, but I work around it.

all_is_1

02-23-2006, 05:40 AM

Jinxie, Mace, Lucas, Aeric: You guys are making me glad overgrow got shut down. The level of this discussion is higher than 90% of the threads I've seen on OG. You guys all know your shit.

Lucas you made an excellent point about putting links within posts. In the future, whenever possible, I will do my best to back up any statements I make but the loss of all of my links on OG hurts my reference capabilities enormously. I access these kinds of sites strictly from public computers so I don't have my links saved anywhere else! (I actually don't even keep a computer at my house because I know I'll be too tempted to go and research illicit topics.)
Question 1 (lucas): So is heavy metal accumulation directly related to growth rate? do all fast growing annuals "suck" heavy metals out of soil as fast as mj? This seems contrary to what I've read but frankly I haven't read all that much on this topic. I have heard of using some 'horticultural' grade charcoal to lock up radioactive elements but I don't know enough chemistry to know whether that is sound practice.

Question/point #2: As far as why organics are 'better' (obviously just my opinion): Some research has been done on why the somewhat subjective qualities of taste/aroma tend to be better using organically fed nutrients. Advanced Nutrients claims that organic nutrients stimulate flavonoids/terpanoids synthesis within the plant in a fundamentally different way than chemical fertilizers. This is why they reccommend using a small amount of organic nutrient in any chemical hydroponic system, and also why products like "DR. Hornby's Big Bud" (0-10-50 if I recall correctly) have about 30 amino acids listed in the product label.
On a more subjective note, many of my friends have been growing "Cotton Candy", a Federation seeds strain that comes highly reccommended, from the same mother for well over a year now. All of my friends grow in hydro systems of various types, drip, ebb and flow, or aero. I grow exclusively (at least right now) in organic soil. There cotton candy ALWAYS surpasses mine in appearance (i.e. has more visible trichomes) but mine ALWAYs surpasses theirs in flavor and smoke. This has been confirmed by literally everyone who has smoked them side by side. (Even the growers themselves). I am certainly not trying to boast, as I doubt I am as good a grower as anyone else currently in this conversation--I've only been growing for 3 or 4 years and only 2 indoors. I'm simply trying to relate my personal experience so that I might show why I feel so strongly about organic herb. BTW, all of my hydro friends are much older and more experienced, and while their technical expertise (i.e. plant physiology, nutrient chemistry. . . ) leaves much to be desired, they are all very good growers. One of my friends pulled down 9 and 1/2 lbs. off of three 1000W HPS bulbs. He grows in a rockwool drip system, uses parabolic hoods (he keeps his lights fairly far away from his plants), and three products: 1)GH 3-part, 2)Hygrozyme @ 15ml/gallon, and 3)Doc's liquid carbon bloom. Ironically, his herb is the least potent of all of my friends who grow hydro, which to me speaks to a somewhat inverse relationship between yield and potency, at least at the end of the spectrum, since my other friends are lucky to get 1.5lbs/1000W and none of them get 1g/1w (however their herb smokes better). Anyways, I'll shut up now. Please keep the conversation going.

I'm going to try and post pictures of my current grow right now so please take a look and don't hesitate to give me any constructive criticism/advice on how to improve things. This is the first time I've posted pics so hopefully it will work out.

Peace all.

all_is_1

02-23-2006, 06:14 AM

http://www.icmag.com/gallery/data/500/8867CC3-thumb.jpg (http://www.icmag.com/gallery/data/500/8867CC3.jpg)

http://www.icmag.com/gallery/data/500/8867super_haze-thumb.jpg (http://www.icmag.com/gallery/data/500/8867super_haze.jpg)

http://www.icmag.com/gallery/data/500/8867wb2-thumb.jpg (http://www.icmag.com/gallery/data/500/8867wb2.jpg)

http://www.icmag.com/gallery/data/500/8867old_school_blueberry-thumb.jpg (http://www.icmag.com/gallery/data/500/8867old_school_blueberry.jpg)

http://www.icmag.com/gallery/data/500/8867white_buffalo-thumb.jpg (http://www.icmag.com/gallery/data/500/8867white_buffalo.jpg)

http://www.icmag.com/gallery/data/500/8867AK-47-thumb.jpg (http://www.icmag.com/gallery/data/500/8867AK-47.jpg)

http://www.icmag.com/gallery/data/500/8867image11-thumb.jpg (http://www.icmag.com/gallery/data/500/8867image11.jpg)

http://www.icmag.com/gallery/data/500/8867cotton_candy-thumb.jpg (http://www.icmag.com/gallery/data/500/8867cotton_candy.jpg)

Lucas

02-23-2006, 09:52 AM

> So is heavy metal accumulation directly related to growth rate?

that is my uneducated opinion, yes, that the benefit of cannabis over other crops is how fast it produces a given weght of biomass

> This seems contrary to what I've read

I love to learn better, more accurate information, if you find a link to improve my understanding, I will welcome the education

> organic nutrients stimulate flavonoids/terpanoids synthesis

Im all for vitamins, minerals, amino acids, fulvics, humics, etc

and I am in total agreement that plant food needs to have much more than just NPK to approach what nature provides organically

> There cotton candy ALWAYS surpasses mine in appearance (i.e. has more visible trichomes) but mine ALWAYs surpasses theirs in flavor and smoke.

it would be interesting to work up a comparison between what nutrients you are using, and theirs. whether you and they use CO2, and light intensity comparisons (distance from, I assume, the same size lamp)

I agree that 1.5 lbs of potent bud is realistic, and to get 3 pounds, there could well be a potency hit.. though in a coliseum, or a super high density SOG, that may not be true..

> Ironically, his herb is the least potent

yes, running the lights farther away allows for a bigger mass of canopy, but the plants will be leafier, hence less resin per puff

3lbs from a 1k is not unheard of, but it usually comes with plant numbers over 100 per 1k

your pictures look fabulous! the only suggestion for improvement would be to use CO2 enhancement, and plenty of wind, to increase trichome field density.. iow, besides light intensity, co2 intensity.. and making sure the canopy is ventilated to keep delivering fresh co2..

I would be curious to know how high your N level might be.. and your Mg, as there is the slightest overgreen and down curl in some of the leaf structure at the ends of the bud in the first picture.. but that could just be a trait of the strain.. the indica part..

your plants look very happy, and your colas nice and fat

I was surprised you mention your product is superior in medical potency, despite having fewer trichomes than some of your co learners.. might your trichome level be due to lower light level (light farther away, or larger plants with deeper canopies, or a difference in CO2 levels?

otoh, if your product has more volatile terpenes, those could account for the extra potency. that would require that your product have more complex aroma, and more concentrated aroma.. as you imply in your taste comment

there is a theory posited by Sam the Skunkman, that the odor molecules are actually extremely significant to the type and direction of the high, with THC level being just the power behind the direction set by terpenes..

now, I distinguish terpenes, smells coming off the trichome resins, from flavinoids.. which I think, and I ask to be corrected if Im mistaken.. I think flavinoids relate to flavors, implying those are water soluble substances.

I dont think water soluble substances are the ones we want, its the oils.. which again, is why I am suprised your bud wins the smoke test, with less visible trichomes.. but I dont doubt you for a moment

thanks to everyone posting, for sharing your thoughts and experiences

Lucas

Coco Nuts

02-23-2006, 05:56 PM

Guest

02-23-2006, 09:37 PM

Luca I checked out your link to your mentor Ph's site, some very good info, I especially like his detailing of average yield calculations, spent 2 hours there yesterday reading.
I wish I had all my reference, I had over 50 full legth pages with tons of links, it was a thread dedicated to organics and coco @ OG, all lost :(.

Guest

02-23-2006, 10:04 PM

Cal-Mag Users

I would appreciate if any of you willing to take a reading of 5ml CalMag in R/O and report back here. I suspect my bottle is much stronger than the label says but I want to see what you guys are reading:

5ml Cal Mag Plus to 1gallon = 475 u/s = 332ppm @.7

I get about the same and my buddys get about the same as well. All from 0ppm RO and using .7.

I brought this up earlier in the thread.. See post 37 and 38. The 5ml per gal dose seems pretty strong to me. Especially when in the early stages when the total ppms are around 400-500. 300ppm of cal mag and 100-200 ppm of main nuts... :chin:

Guest

02-23-2006, 10:08 PM

I wish I had all my reference, I had over 50 full legth pages with tons of links, it was a thread dedicated to organics and coco @ OG, all lost :(.

Any chance you will start a coco based thread here? I'm planning on using a coco and hydroton mix for the first time next run and would love to hear what you coco experts have to say...

Coco Nuts

02-24-2006, 12:29 AM

I put in a vote for a coco forum. I'd settle for Soilless forum as well.

Fwiw, when I reported my PPM reading to Botainicare they said that sounded high too. How should we be dosing our seedlings? That's why I've grown fond of Lucas GH Forumla as of late. Just mix and dilute to the necessary EC.

Guest

02-24-2006, 01:57 AM

I might get on that coco thread but I'll have to find all my old links, just posting things without a reference brings the troll out of the woodwork, I've already posted asking for a coco forum.
The thing with coco is as far as organics are concerned it's relatively new ground, mostly liquid fert based grows, no ammended grows.
Good things coming.
So is there a Luca's formula thread here or not?

Guest

02-24-2006, 02:09 AM

just posting things without a reference brings the troll out of the woodwork, I've already posted asking for a coco forum.

You've spent too much time on OG! There's nothing wrong with dicussing a topic without having to back up your thoughts or experience with reference links. Just adding some opinions, past experiences, and kicking ideas around should not attract trolls IMO. That's been my experience here anyway.

Guest

02-24-2006, 03:54 AM

so

we just switched over to floranova for ease of use

is there a "lucas formula" ratio for this stuff?

ive been following the bottle for veg and been having great results so far...

i remember reading like 5 mL/gallon of the bloom or something?

Fire

02-24-2006, 05:43 AM

:wave:

Advance Recipe Formulation Sheet

http://www.icmag.com/gallery/data/500/919aaformula-thumb.JPG (http://www.icmag.com/gallery/data/500/919aaformula.JPG)

all_is_1

02-24-2006, 08:38 AM

Happy Hipster: If you read earlier in this thread Lucas himself addresses that issue; I believe that Floranova bloom actually IS the Lucas formula because it got back to GH that so many people were using that formula with success.

Lucas: As always your responses are appreciated. A complement from such an accomplished grower means a lot to me. On the whole cotton candy issue, I forgot to mention the most crucial difference between my cotton candy and my other friends. While theirs all smell great--very punguent, spicy, and unique, mine always has a overwhelming fruity/spicy thing going that is just incomparable to my friends candy--though I haven't done blind tests my stoner friends noticed the difference as soon as I walked into the room (literally!). My cotton candy, actually, could be perfectly described as smelling more 'complex' than theirs to use your own words! After going to tons of hippy shows and festivals when I was in high school I developed the skill of deciding how high weed was going to get me strictly by looking and smelling nugget to level of an art form. I found smell ALWAYS to be the most telling factor--even some beasters look good after all!

As far as the terpinoid/flavinoid thing goes, I should first admit that I really don't know the chemical difference between the two--I was just spitting out a condensed version of what the advanced site says. I don't have time at the moment, but I will post some links soon. (I did enjoy that GH link on chemical/organics you posted though-thanks. My only problem is GH also has a vested interest in promoting the positives of chemical fertilization.)
I amazed that you could tell from the pictures that more CO2 would be helpful--I currently have a C02 generator running in there attached to a C02 monitor/controller but I have a big room and its not sealed to the CO2 only gets up to about 700-800ppm by the end of the day. It seems the generally accepted optimal value is around 1200-2000ppm and I'm not getting quite in that range with this grow.
I have found the trichome thing to be quite weird myself; I read an interview with the owners of DNA genetics in Weed World that supported my experiences though. Heres my best attempt at paraphrasing what they said: [For photographs, we use strictly hydro weed. For some reason our hydro always comes out superior in appearance to our soil weed. All the weed that we smoke we grow in soil; something about soil just makes weed taste so sweet!] It was in either the most recent or the last issue of weed world in case you want to check it out. The only lacking information in the article was whether they used different fertilizers in soil and in hydroponics and whether their soil was real "SOIL" or a soiless medium like sunshine mix. Kind of makes their opinions less helpful.
When I say that the visible trichome density is greater with the hydro herb--I don't mean that mine is lacking. (Even my friend who keeps his lights REALLY far away from his plants-the 3lb/1kw dude--gets VERY white weed--it still just doesn't get you THAT high (if you're a conneiseour). IOW, in my experience trichome density is not the biggest determining factor for an herb's potency.) My weed comes out very white, but not QUITE as white as the hydro.
I use different nutrients then all of them. They all use GH(with only hygrozyme and Doc's LC as additives) or Pure Blend. The PB fellas comes out much closer to my weed.

Here is my nutrient profile in brief:

My soil mix:

Pro-mix (sunshine mix, b-cuzz hydromix, etc.)
worm castings
perlite (lots cause those worm castings are fucking heavy)
soybean meal
alfalfa meal
soft rock phosphate
bat guanos (some high N and some high P)
raw humates (50% humic acid by weight)
pulverized dolomite
kelp meal
volcanite (paramagnatizes the soil)

I transplant into this composted mix and then don't feed until a few weeks into bloom. In bloom I've been using a combination of these products:

1. AN Iguana Juice 4-3-6 (This shit rocks, talked to some people on AN's forums who switched from chemical nutrients to Iguana Juice in ebb and flow tables and said once they fine tuned everything their yields went UP!)
AN carboload (has 4 kinds of sugar to help beneficial bacteria, straight molasses works as well but only has 2 kinds of sugar.)
AN Sensi-cal (discussed above)
Hygrozyme (100% omri-certified organic enzyme product--this shit is worth its weight in gold. Which is good because it costs about as much as gold too. Hydro shop gave me a free bottle and I haven't stopped using it since. )
I use some pure blend (not pro) near the end because I like what it does to the taste.
Potassium Silicate (not organic but the most scientifically documented additive on the market.)

TO EVERYONE: If you are using CAL-MAG by botanicare for supplemental MG and CA, I would STRONGLY reccommend trying AN nutrients "Sensi-Cal". Sensi-Cal has more diverse sources of calcium and magnesium and proportional amounts of CHELATED micronutrients--like, all of them. (zinc, manganese, iron, copper, boron, etc. ) I have found it to be superior to Cal-mag and it doesn't cost significantly more. They claim that their own research showed that adding supplemental calcium and magnesium without trace elements actually caused imbalances within the plant and interfered with the plants uptake of other nutrients. I make no scientific claims but I have found it to be so good that it is the ONLY chemically derived fertilizer that I use in my garden. Usage is ~1 tsp/gallon or 1.25ml/liter for soil/soiless.

Goddamn I just wrote a lot. I hope someone finds it useful.

Peace.

Guest

02-24-2006, 08:00 PM

I'm glad I read it to the end, I'll have to try that AN stuff and see how it runs.
Yeah a trip to the hydro store lol.

Lucas

02-24-2006, 08:20 PM

> If you read the Canna site they suggest that you initially flood the medium with a cal/mag additive to release this extra K as young plants can get burnt from it's initial release from the material.

I could not find that info

I did find a video that says they already remove the K and add the Ca and Mg before bagging CannaCoco for sale:
http://www.canna-uk.com/dhtml/coco_slides.php

> is there a "lucas formula" ratio for this stuff? (FloraNovaBloom)

yes, about 8ml/gallon, confirmed by an EC of 2.0, TDS 1400@.7 conversion.. its OK to float around between 1200 and 1500ppm imho, and you can tweak pH a bit that way, stronger EC drops pH..

> So is there a Luca's formula thread here or not?

yes, my signature links to some recent posts I made to archive the info..

Lucas

Guest

02-24-2006, 09:28 PM

They remove some of it but not enough of it as I have seen at least 6 cases of initial K burn in your clones/seedlings in Canna brand coco.
The thing that gets me with the Canna site is the have 50 different versions of their info flying around,I swear if I get my hands on that thread you would be amazed @ how many different versions of their info sheet they have.
There is only 1 element that I know of that twist the tips of MJ plants that early on and it's K.
Just checked out that site, they really condensed the material they used to have on using Canna coco.

casey

03-04-2006, 07:43 PM

is there a simple formula for PBP to follow one can use,similar to the lucas formula for Gh 3 part??

i'm a just a beginner.

SuperToker

03-05-2006, 08:03 AM

is there a simple formula for PBP to follow one can use,similar to the lucas formula for Gh 3 part??

i'm a just a beginner.

http://www.starfall.com/ has all the info you need.

mrwags

03-05-2006, 08:13 AM

And after you laugh your ass off you can go here.

http://www.americanagritech.com/faq/faq.asp#1

That was a good one.

Mr.Wags

casey

03-05-2006, 08:24 AM

http://www.starfall.com/ has all the info you need.

nice one jerk

Lucas

03-05-2006, 06:37 PM

> is there a simple formula for PBP to follow one can use,similar to the lucas formula for Gh 3 part??

yes

see page 4 of this thread

hth
Lucas

casey

03-05-2006, 11:46 PM

so don't use pbp grow?

SuperToker

03-07-2006, 03:32 AM

nice one jerk

your the dumbass from OG that can't read or search. for god sakes, you posted in a thread with nothing but pbp formulas. did your order arrive yet? if that method doesn't work, you might try hooked on phonics although its a more dated method of learning how to read.

casey

03-07-2006, 04:09 AM

your the dumbass from OG that can't read or search. for god sakes, you posted in a thread with nothing but pbp formulas. did your order arrive yet? if that method doesn't work, you might try hooked on phonics although its a more dated method of learning how to read.

you're the dumbass that cant spell you're.....idiot

"dumbass from OG that can't read or search"..did you ever stop to think I read and searched before I asked..condescending prick,jumped at the chance to show his witless humour...let me guess you pwnz noobs..

all_is_1

03-07-2006, 08:15 AM

Guys. Please. We're all adults here. Stop this crap immediately. Hardly anyone on this site spells well and very few people are idiots.

meduser180056

04-15-2006, 09:25 AM

I use PBPB soil formula which is 1.5-4-5. So I downloaded the PH's spreadsheet and I think I came up with a good mix. The liquid Karma might not be necessary, but I have a bottle so why not? It does raise PPMs significantly though so a lighter dose might be better. The 10ml of Cal-mag is necessary for the Nitrogen and the Magnesium cuz the soil bloom formula has less nitrogen.

So here it is:

15ml PBPBsoil
10ml Cal-Mag
10ml Liquid Karma
2.5ml Pro-Tekt Silica

This gives you:
115
72
195
51

This mix comes out to about 1.8ec. I use tap water.
I have really good tap water that is around 40ppms.

Does that sound about right?
Also should I only water with 1/3rd strength everytime since I'm in soil?
What should the EC/ppm be of the nute mix when using a fertless soil?
I'd like to feed with every watering.

Hope that mix helps someone out there.

cabanetforester

04-17-2006, 05:12 AM

Greetings PBP people,

I have been using PBP Grow and Liquid Karma in my DWC. I am using less than 1/2 strength of each. I am seeing a thick brown sludge appear in spots around the roots. Is this normal?

Here are my details:

9 gallon DWC temp is 68-74 F

2- 10 " bubble wands (1 under each plant)

170 GPH powerhead with venturi attached

Bubblemaid container is light-proofed to about 95%

10ml/gallon PBP-G
5ml/gallon LK
5ml/gallon hydroguard
PPM = 800

Plants seem to be doing ok, but have gone kind of soft the last couple days. Fan leaf stems aren't quite as rigid as they used to be.

Does any one else get this thick brown build up? :pointlaug .CF

senseless

04-18-2006, 01:02 AM

whats up pb users?

any of you use the new bonticare product called 'Sweet'? its a carbohydrate addative. and contains magnesium, sulfur and calcium. along with sugar extracts from the sugar cane plant.

currently the nutreints i have/am using are pbp grow/bloom, cal-mag plus, Sweet, and BioNova pk-13-14 boost. i have never changed out my rez water and dont plan to. i add nutreints sparingly when i think the plants need some. and i started pk boosting on day21 flower.

anyone ever use the bio nova pk booster? i picked it up because the hydro store diddnt have any Hydroplex pk booster and they reccomended i get the bio nova stuff.

all_is_1

04-18-2006, 07:02 AM

I am a fan of sweet. No scientific proof, but plant vigor and color seem to be improved when sweet is incorporated into the pbp program.

skryllz

04-19-2006, 05:53 AM

I love PBP. I use between 10-20ml/gal of PBP grow in veg and 20-30ml/gal PBP bloom for flowering. I don't use any additives, I use distilled water, but occasionally top off with tap water or add a pinch of epsom salts to add a little calcium and magnesium. I've never checked my ph, tds, ec nothing. I just follow the directions on the bottle, sometimes I use about 3/4 of whats recommended, but regardless PBP works its magic and my plants never really have any problems. I know I could probably grow better plants if I used some additives and checked ph, tds, ec all that fun stuff, but for now what I do works wonders for me.

senseless

04-27-2006, 12:14 AM

i was looking on the bonticare website and it looks like they have a new addative.

SEA BLAST npk = .1-0-.1 'Liquid Seaweed Concentrate'

'A highly beneficial plant nutrient supplement for fruits, vegetables, herbs, flowers, trees, shrubs, and lawns. For use in container gardens or soilless hydrogardening applications.'
http://www.americanagritech.com/product/product_detail.asp?ID=1&pro_id_pk=41

it sounds good to me, in the past ive used liquid seaweed and it is great stuff.

Guest

07-08-2006, 02:19 AM

I use PBP with R/O water and it likes to make my pH go down below 4.0, also Is there supposed to be lots of sediment in the water?

James-Bong

07-08-2006, 02:25 AM

Takes this with a grain of salt ST... but Ive recently heard from a fellow ICer, i think it was GrowDoc, that CalMag doesnt like to be mixed up with other nutes.

peace

Ive used Cal-mag with PBP 4 3 years now..... no probs at all 7ml per gallon of solution....

Guest

07-08-2006, 03:22 AM

I use PBP with R/O water and it likes to make my pH go down below 4.0, also Is there supposed to be lots of sediment in the water?

The ph drop is normal but I don't see much sediment in my stuff. Cloudy and dark yes but no chunks floating around.

peace

Guest

07-08-2006, 04:54 AM

not big chunks but silt like sediment, maybe because I use it with Floralicious Plus

Guest

07-08-2006, 04:54 AM

Oh and im useing the soil stuff

payn4school

10-17-2006, 08:24 PM

This is my special lucas wanna-be aeroponic recipe, for RO

Early Flower: ml per gallon
Pro flower soil: 15 ml
LK: 5ml
Sweet: 5ml
Cal-Mag: 3ml

yeilds approximately:
N-94
P-90
K-218
Mg-57
C-77

Late flower less Nitrogen:
Pro flower soil: 15 ml
LK: 5ml
Sweet: 5ml
Cal-Mag max(Millenium): 5ml
(This can be any cal mag suplement that does not contain nitrogen)

yields:
N-78
P-90
K-218
Mg-62
C-111

This formula is still in testing but i have very high hopes for it, excuse the pun.

mace_ecam

10-17-2006, 10:31 PM

hey payn4school, very interesting to say the least :)
you're pretty close to the 100-100-200-60 guide, closer than 0-8-16

where do you get the micros from if i may ask?

peace,

mace

payn4school

10-17-2006, 11:28 PM

if by "micros" you mean the npk , I used the this:

http://www.angelfire.com/cantina/fourtwenty/articles/profiles.htm

IF by "micros" you mean the trace minerals and such, there are plenty in the botanicare lineup.

Just did the math, althogh I supose with organics thats iincorrect but its close enough for me.

payn

mace_ecam

10-17-2006, 11:34 PM

cheers payn,

i meant the latter.
Any specific pH your aiming for?

payn4school

10-18-2006, 06:46 AM

anywhere from 6.2 down to 5.8, I use my top off res to keep it nearly perfect. But Im still trying to predict the plants eating habits so far, cause that can change the ph rapidly. Also when the plants are under an infection or attact of some kind the plant will leach acids back into the medium therefor make the ph drop like a rock, just another thing to watch out for.

payn

DurbanPoison

11-09-2006, 06:39 PM

Ok guys - this has proved to be an unbelieveable Veg formula so far;

It's Johnson's Solution
105-33-138-85-25

I use distilled water and mix the following to get pretty damn close:

12ml PBP Bloom (oddly .. but for some reason pbp bloom has hardly any P!)
5ml Cal Mag Plus (You may be able to go without if you're using a harder tap water)
5.8pH (Ever since I started this recipe & adjusted the pH - I haven't changed the pH at all for the past 3 days)

This solution will report about 770ppms if you test it overall. The actual NPK values you'll get are as follows:
111N - 29P - 140K - 77Ca - 33Mg

It still bugs me that PBP Bloom is so weak on P, i'll have to see how this works with bloom. It's likely i'll be using something different because anyone - we want those calyx's to stretch the hell out. And get way.. way to big. :)

I have been doing research on waters and distilled is hands down the best IMO. Any other form of purification still allows crap to come through so you don't really know what your working with. I put my digital hanna ppm meter in distilled water and get between 1-3ppm's at most - usually 0. Now THAT is some clean water. I've recently found how important it is to ensure that your potassium is aligned with the Ca and Mg.

mrwags

11-09-2006, 08:18 PM

DurbanPoison

11-10-2006, 05:16 PM

I just added liquid karma to get the following:
116N - 30P - 155K - 77Ca - 33Mg 12ml PBP Bloom and 5ml Cal Mag Plus and 3ml Karma
I think it's going to help. It increased some things that could use it.

Wags - Thanks for the tip! I'll have to check into the hydroplex. I was thinking of getting some of that silica blast. :chin: Sounds like I may need to make a switch of plans. Thanks wags!

mrwags

11-11-2006, 11:07 PM

I use the silica blast as well. imo it is better than that Blastoff crap. But please read my warning regarding the LK.

Mr.Wags

Flutch

11-15-2006, 11:59 PM

Wow so much information to process, but thanks for all the info this is just what i need to get going on my hydro stuff

pico

11-30-2006, 10:56 AM

Ok so I want some people to try out my spreadsheet.
http://stashbox.org/6022/botanicarespreadsheet.xlr

It will automatically compute the N,P,K,Mg,Ca,Fe levels for the botanicare lineup when given the ml/gallon used for each product.

I just took the numbers I got off of pH's spreadsheet
http://www.angelfire.com/cantina/fourtwenty/articles/profiles.htm

Makes it a lot easier. I am pretty sure all the math, numbers are right. On pH's spreadsheet it does some rounding so I used 100ml in the form for each product and then devided by 100 to get more accurate numbers per ml. I am not sure if I am explaning it very well.

To use my spreadsheet only change the values in the red box. The blue box will show you your npk values.

For instance when I enter the values I would do this

PBP Bloom 0
PBP Soil Bloom 16
Liquid Karma 10
CalMag+ 6
Sweet 4

and the spreadsheet will output
N 106.652
P 85.792
K 212.38
MG 62.856
CA 98.296
FE 2.3

This is pretty close to the 100-100-200-60 and the 4-2-1 recomendations.

I am thinking about setting up a few small ebb flows with different formulas

pico

payn4school

12-05-2006, 06:48 AM

Can someone tell me why canna calc is off by so much when computing hydrolplex soil. Try it your self:
http://www.angelfire.com/cantina/fourtwenty/

The bottle says it has 158ppm phos and 105 ppm k.

Well when you imput the percentages for this in the calc the K is right on at 105 but the fricken P is way off at only 82! thats almost off by half and under which is even worse.

So now I cant trust this damm calc and the lucas ratio is not correct either. I am still experiencing a K deficiency and the P is in much high demand than stated.

Plants are massive but nowhere near flawless. There are definet problems with using the botanicare line, a main one being a calcium and K deficency. I will work through it but my Nute calc HAS GOT TO BE MORE ACCURATE!@#!@#@@!
Any suggestions>>>>????DSFGASDGDFWEQ%R#$QWET^#$%% WB$%YV$%YWG

Sorry, just had to pound on the keys for a sec.

6 weeks

http://www.icmag.com/gallery/data/500/14858DSCF00021-thumb.JPG (http://www.icmag.com/gallery/data/500/14858DSCF00021.JPG)

Guest

12-07-2006, 11:24 AM

I was wondering if hydroplex soil 0-12-8 npk might be just the think to take care of some of the p deficiency's, also any problems with using the hydroplex soil with soiless coco mix?

Rush Limbong

12-28-2006, 10:13 PM

Excellent thread!

I'm a soil grower jumping into Hydro, so bare with me.

My tap water is reading right at "30" on my TDS meter.

Should I use cal/mag with PBP

Thanks,
Rush

Guest

01-09-2007, 02:25 AM

Rush- I would think so. Just with the 5ml. But what do I know. I have nice hard well water.

Relaxed

01-13-2007, 08:23 AM

Some interesting reading here but unforunately most of it is above my head. I'm hoping someone could help me with a formula.

I'm growing White Widow in Promix and would like to try Pure Blend Pro with my tap water. What feeding regimen should I be starting with? And do you feed this blend every watering?

Keep in mind that due to my limited success so far my biggest concern is healthy plants above quality or quantity. I can work on that later. Unfortunately I seem to have a black thumb so simpler is better.

Thanks for any advice.

Guest

02-25-2007, 04:58 AM

Im using
PBP Bloom 10ml/gal
LK 10ML/gal
CalMag 5ml/gal
I end up with a ppm of 1270 Im on day 40 of Flower Sound OK ? Suggestions?

flower wave

03-10-2007, 05:19 AM

using pbpnutes, soilless moisture form. having yellowing problems think its my water/feed cycle is wrong. hand watering to run off. ppm 500-1000. veg.ph5.8-6.1 in, usually 6.5-6.7 out. how much water in how much out 3 gln. pots 400mh.

magoo420

03-14-2007, 07:54 AM

[B] Me I dont go over 1200 ppm in vegatative growth....Love the product though

Guest

03-14-2007, 08:19 AM

loving this thread.. but kinda wondering if someone has came up with a lucas style formula yet for pbp. Seems we are getiing close with the NPK calculators and such but has anyone actually got it down to a science yet? Btw sometimes in flower i hit 21-2200 ppms with pbp.

TNJed

03-15-2007, 12:40 AM

Lucas says to Use 15 ml/gal PBP(bloom), and 5 ml/gal Cal/Mag+. That's it.

bounty29

03-15-2007, 12:51 AM

A ratio of 17ml/gal PBP(Bloom, Soil) and 6ml/gal of Cal/Mag+ will get you very close to both the 100-100-200-60 N-P-K-Mg and 4-2-1 of K-Ca-Mg

N....104
P....83
K....197
Mg..43
Ca..99

That's very close to what Lucas suggests, I found those numbers to be closest to the two ratios I stated earlier, which I've found in several places across the web. I'll be trying these numbers with distilled water in DWC as soon as I can take clones off the seedlings I started a few days ago.

Guest

03-15-2007, 06:20 AM

tag

Guest

03-19-2007, 02:58 AM

i am just starting 12/12 and i realized i wasn't sure when to use hydroplex. the site says last 2 - 3 weeks. as with everything people do as they please and find other ways with different and better results. please if you could let me know your personal opinion on hydroplex and the time line that you use it in. TIA

pico

03-19-2007, 05:51 AM

I don't think Lucas has actually ever tried the 15/5 formula with pure blend. It is Grow Greens formula.

bounty- if you add 3ml of sweet to that mix it will bring up the magnesium levels to 60ppm.

Rush Limbong

03-20-2007, 03:34 AM

Good question^^^I'll be using Hydroplex also, I'd like to know too.

The guy at the Hydro shop kinda shrugged his shoulders and said Hydroplex was "ok"....told me "Kabloom" was THE shit......I was playing stupid, and asking him what was "the best". Maybe I wasn't playing cause I'm still not sure :confused:

FOE20

05-13-2007, 10:29 AM

Im really starting to dig the topics you guys cover around here...Im a die hard PBP user myself now and goin on 2yrs..I started aprox 20yrs ago in soil with whatever was around and bout 4-5yrs back was in OForrest and using FFarm nutes to boot very similar to allot of folks here..Then I tried PBP out frustration from the wat my Tap was affecting my soil grows which pushed me to hydro/DWC. After reading most the post I see I followed the same path so Instead of goin thru my method I'll just add some quick notes Ive got to work great incase yo cant find certain things at the hydro shop neer ya..
I also use very low Nute formula and keep to around 200-350ppm in veg with even Med sized plants..This is in hydroton Drain2waist then transed to 6 site aerotub(pic of aer-tubs below)..From there they still only get 300-350ppm with only micro amounts of LK and Hydrogaured thru wk 1 of bloom then nutes go up to around 400-550max..I only use the Veg/Bloom/SoilBloom as a full bodied nutrient then I use LK for micro boost and later in bloom instead of PK13/14 which i cant get local I use AllNatural's BudBlaster in very micro amounts..But I still follow the same method as in Veg nute to Bloom to SoilBloom then I liten the mixture the closer they get to harvest to drain the plant instead of a flushing which I feel in organics is not really needed if you can finish the plant in the best natural way..
I dont use Cal-Mag at all cause my Tap is mixed with my RO to 50-80ppm before I even mix nutes so its already buffered and has plenty of Cal,Mag,Iron and all kinds of shit really...Most PBP nutes dont drop the PH like syth salts but the BudBlaster will and I only use that and Sweet in later Flower weeks..I do start giving micro amounts of BudBlaster in wk-3 and usually see great Trich production..I tried Hydroplex and it burned my girls up to easy but I do use SilicaBlast but not till wk4-5bloom and only earlier on weak plants that need stronger shoots cause thats what Silica will help in hydro mainly..I also have been trying Sucanat directly into my final week of not flushing but more leeching the plant near harvest..I dont like the way Sucanat holds in the weed and it burns a bit more slow but Im still testing the method and a nice combo of Sweet/Sucanat seems to be very nice..This is a Carb sub for later bloom when carbs are really needed to keep trich production at its fullest cause the liquid in the Trich is sugar and thats why it turns to amber when ripens as its carmalzing..yummeh..
I use DWC solo buckets in bloom so no sure how my way applies to others but might be somethin in here to use..great info from all here tho..Im still takin notes..
FOE20 :joint:
http://www.icmag.com/gallery/data/500/15154DChunkAero_05-11-07-thumb.jpg (http://www.icmag.com/gallery/data/500/15154DChunkAero_05-11-07.jpg)

http://www.icmag.com/gallery/data/500/151542123BSattFullBod_1-10-07-thumb.jpg (http://www.icmag.com/gallery/data/500/151542123BSattFullBod_1-10-07.jpg)

http://www.icmag.com/gallery/data/500/15154c24aeroTubs_05-06-07-thumb.jpg (http://www.icmag.com/gallery/data/500/15154c24aeroTubs_05-06-07.jpg)

http://www.icmag.com/gallery/data/500/15154FB-OTRwkBloom_05-06-07-thumb.jpg (http://www.icmag.com/gallery/data/500/15154FB-OTRwkBloom_05-06-07.jpg)

http://www.icmag.com/gallery/data/500/15154LUIhangin_03-27-07-thumb.jpg (http://www.icmag.com/gallery/data/500/15154LUIhangin_03-27-07.jpg)

http://www.icmag.com/gallery/data/500/15154LUIfullView_03-24-07-thumb.jpg (http://www.icmag.com/gallery/data/500/15154LUIfullView_03-24-07.jpg)

http://www.icmag.com/gallery/data/500/15154UV2fullPic1_03-30-07-thumb.jpg (http://www.icmag.com/gallery/data/500/15154UV2fullPic1_03-30-07.jpg)

http://www.icmag.com/gallery/data/500/15154Afghn1Full1_03-16-071-thumb.jpg (http://www.icmag.com/gallery/data/500/15154Afghn1Full1_03-16-071.jpg)

TNJed

06-02-2007, 06:13 PM

FOE20 is right about low doses! I went through a lot of problems w/ PBP until I learned that the recomended doses are way too strong! I was suffering from lockouts and overfert issues at around 10 ml/gal! I backed off to around 3-4 ml/gal (in addition to 5 ml/gal LK and around 5 ml/gal of PB Original). This is in tap water that starts at 130 ppm TDS and ph adjusted to around 5.6-5.9. I also want to mention that I run an aeroponic system that mists my roots 24/7, with water temps that stay in the low 70's(supplemented w/ hydroguard and hygrozyme). Since I backed way the fuck off things have been looking much, much better!!

Mr_Micro

06-03-2007, 02:10 AM

I've always kept my PBP formula pretty simple, since PBP has always worked wonders in my grows with little to no additives.

For hydro grows (I mainly do DWC, but I'm hope to try Ebb & Flow table with the same formula in the future) I start with water PH balanced to 5.8 and add 1/4 ounce of PBP Bloom to get the seedlings started. From there I just top off with plain PH 5.8 water for two weeks. I change the water once every 2 weeks, so once the plants are established and up to the 4th or 5th node (usually after 2 weeks) I start giving them 1/2 ounce of PBP Grow per gallon of water along with 1/4 ounce of Hydroguard and 1/4 ounce of Cal-Mag Plus. The reason I use Bloom instead of Grow is because I always go 12/12 straight from seed to keep the plants small.

I stick with this formula, changing the water every two weeks and topping off with plain PH balanced water in between, until the plants start really devoloping budsites and the stretching ends. At this point I move up to 1 ounce per gallon of PBP Bloom per gallon of water and continue using 1/4 ounce of Hydroguard and 1/4 ounce of Cal-Mag Plus as well. I just stick with this forumula until the last week of growth, when I give them only plain PH blanced water for the reamainder of the grow to flush them.

For soil grows my formula is even more simple. I use a Fox Farm Ocean Forest Soil mix that consists of 3/4 FFOF soil to 1/4 Perlite with 1 tablespoon of Dolmetic Lime per gallon of soil added in.

I give the plants plain water balanced to a PH of 6.5 for the first few weeks or until the bottom set of leaves start to turn a little yellow from a nitrogen deffiency. At this point I know the FFOF soil has used up it's nutrient supply and I begin feeding once every 3 waterings with 1/4 ounce of PBP Bloom Soil Formula per gallon of water. Once again, I start with Bloom because I always grow 12/12 straight from seed. So my watering schedual is ---> plain water, plain water, nutrient water, plain water, plain water, nutrient water, etc., etc.

After that I just kinda eye the plants and if I see any signs of deffiency (which will usually happen after 2 or 3 weeks on 1/4 ounce per gallon of PBP) I step it up to 1/2 ounce per gallon of PBP Bloom Soil Formula in the water (still only once every 3 waterings) and if they're really nutrient hungry in late flowering I go up to 1 ounce per gallon of PBP. Also, during the last 4 weeks of flowering I like to add in 1 tablespoon of organic blackstrap molasses to the water as a natural bloom booster.

So yeah, thats pretty much it! To recap once more, heres what goes into the hydro formula and what goes into the soil formula...

====
Hydro
====

1/4, 1/2/ or 1 ounce per gallon of PBP Bloom
1/4 ounce per gallon of Cal-Mag Plus
1/4 ounce per gallon of Hydroguard

===
Soil
===

1/4, 1/2, or 1 ounce per gallon of Pureblend Pro Bloom Soil Formula
1 tablespoon per gallon of organic blackstrap molasses (only in the later flowering stages)

I'm a big believer in the KISS formula for sure, and never once have I been dissapointed with my results :D

illuminatus

06-03-2007, 03:02 AM

I gave plants 1500 ppm pbp grow in early veg and they ate it right up only slightly burning the tips, I have backed off and only noticed hungry girls. This is with a .5 conversion so that would be 3.0 ec which seems kind of high? On the botanicare site they list 2400 ppm as "super aggressive" 2400 even using the .7 conversion is around 3.0 ec which seems like alot. Should you feed massive bushes accordingly? Do plants vegged for 3 months need the higher nute levels?

Guest

06-11-2007, 05:45 AM

Good question Illuminatis. Do bigger girls need more food? I've read every post and 15ml per gallon PBP seems very weak. Especially considering what I'm giving them:

I started using PBP Bloom Soil at 1tblsp per gallon - decent yield.

Upped it to 2tbslp per gallon - better yield.

Started adding 1/2 strength Hydrofarm Hydroponic Bloom Fertilizer (10-30-15) - almost doubled my yield. Upped that to full strenth - no real increase in yield, complaints of chemmy taste, burned if the temps got too warm - backed down to 1/2 strength.

Started adding 1tblsp per gallon feed-grade molasses - better tastes / smells.

Currently growing in 50/50 coco fiber / perlite. I add 1 tblsp per gallon Fox Farm Fruit and Flower dry formulae to the mix to give it a more organic feel and for added bacteria and fungi. Also using Plant Success at transplant.

Girls are in 5 gallon buckets with tomato cages. Averaging 4 feet tall. Yields are between 1 to 2 ounces a plant depending on strain. Some yield more than others. I feed at every watering and I add Hydroguard at 15ml per gallon, Sensizyme at 15ml per gallon and occasionally Silica Blast if temps are high. Well water measuring about 300 tds. I always need to ph down to 5.7-6.0. I flush for 1 - 2 weeks with plain unadjusted tapwater. I bloom every strain for at least 9 weeks. More for those that need it.

I would like to yield more than 1/2 - 3/4 grams per watt. Any ideas?

meduser180056

06-16-2007, 02:44 AM

I think bigger girls DO need more food in most cases.

I've gone up 20 ml/gal of PBPB soil with no problems. I also use PK 13/14 during bloom at 1/4 strength a couple of times.

I do think the 15pbpb 5 calmag recipe is the minimum needed for healthy growth, but it is kinda weak.

I don't think your gonna up your yield with nutes at this point. It seems like you got that down. Probably some other aspect of the grow that needs to be finetuned.
Although if you listen to the Advanced guys they'll tell ya you need to switch to AN. LOL

meduser180056

06-16-2007, 02:49 AM

I think the plants adapt to how we feed them a lot of times. Some people keep their plants on a light diet and others feed theirs alot and the plants seem to get used to it either way in most cases as long as it's not too extreme.

So if you have a clone and start it with a strong dose of ferts and it handles it then I think it starts to expect that strong dose as it's lifespan goes on. Same goes for if you started the clone on a light diet.

Also I've heard the mothers feeding diet can effect how the clone likes to eat.

Mandela Mikes strains are all supposedy light feeders cuz he breeds them that way or something like that.

Lex Dysic

07-30-2007, 11:57 PM

I'm using PBP with a clone that appears to be a major nitrogen hog...
I've doubled up on PBP Grow and it seems to be working much better now with no apparent side effects.

Cool Thread.

Brain

09-03-2007, 10:13 AM

In a recirc coco drip how would one measure nute level in the res? Will it show on the ec/ppm meter?

SirSmokalot

09-29-2007, 12:58 PM

In a recirc coco drip how would one measure nute level in the res? Will it show on the ec/ppm meter?
yes that is your nute level or ppm ( parts per million)or EC (electrical conductivity) on the meter. ec and ppm are on different scales but ppm is simple(well for me ,that is what i learned) but they are the same thing. measure of the stuff(solids or nutes) in the water in laimans terms. that is why with a RO filter the ppm is near zero cause it is filtered clean. make sence? i hope so
SIR

BudZad7

10-20-2007, 06:12 AM

:wave: Hi All !! This is by far the BEST ferts...... Tried all the popular ferts, but
PBP was a sample tri pak given to me....PBPG...Liquid Karma...PBPB for soil in 8oz bottles started with 1/8 tsp...then 1/4....then 1/2....now 1tsp in a gal, that is all a plant needs, anymore would be overkill.....the EC always comes to 1.2~1.4 The new Hugo cubes are like a 1gal container...
Here's a simple 6 step formula for veg:::
1 gal RO water Ph 5.8 for cubes(6"x6"x6" Hugo) & 6.5 for soil
3-Smigens of Carbo Load powder (smigen=.3 gram/is a small measure spoon)mix well first, make sure water temp is between 68~72 degrees
2.5 tsp Pot'O Gold
3 tsp Sensizym
1 tsp Cal Mag +
1 tsp PBPG
1 tsp Liquid Karma
See this ....

http://www.icmag.com/gallery/data/500/4558100_1813-thumb.JPG (http://www.icmag.com/gallery/data/500/4558100_1813.JPG)

For Bloom::
Use the same as above for veg + 1tsp PBPB for cubes etc, & PBPB/Soil for soil
and 1 tsp Sweet~berry or citrus your choice.... during Transition period, then
when flowering starts drop the 1 tsp of PBPG & use 1 tsp PBPB~ PBPB/Soil

For last 2 weeks drop 1 tsp PBPB & use only 1 tsp PBPB/Soil instead for a boost of phos/Potash at the end of bloom & also you can use Overdrive for cubes & Top Maxx for soil for .....LARGE FLOWERS! See:

http://www.icmag.com/gallery/data/500/4558100_1188-thumb.JPG (http://www.icmag.com/gallery/data/500/4558100_1188.JPG)

This works pretty well.....Peace!!! :wave:

Spliffman

12-07-2007, 11:52 PM

Guest

12-09-2007, 02:44 AM

veg pbp grow 10 ml per gallon
advanced sweet leaf 5 ml per gallon
hygrozyme 5ml per gallon

my next cycle will be Bloom
pbp bloom 10 ml per gallon
advanced nutes big bud 1/4 tsp per gallon
5 ml per gallon liquid karma
5 ml hygrozyme

asher1er

12-10-2007, 07:34 PM

I use PBP Grow/Bloom & CalMag+ in a Hempy bucket system and the plants always look 100% healthy. I also foliar spray weekly during flowering with blackstrap molasses.

Since they appear healthy, does that mean there is no need to add any other nutes? I use a high Phosphorous bloom booster during flowering, but have never grown without it so I don't know if it is truly giving me more yield.

whats your recipe like? amounts and when? i'll be building a room shortly and think im gonna go with the hempy bucket first time around for ease. I allready have the botanicare PBP line of nutes so i want to stick with thoes

Spliffman

12-11-2007, 08:20 PM

whats your recipe like? amounts and when? i'll be building a room shortly and think im gonna go with the hempy bucket first time around for ease. I allready have the botanicare PBP line of nutes so i want to stick with thoes

I use 100% strength from seedling to harvest. Water every day (with nutes) until the plant starts growing, then every other day. My Hempy plants are the healthiest I've ever grown - no deficiencies or burns.

BlueberryNutz

01-15-2008, 09:45 AM

what ppm should my seedlings be at? right now they are in an ebb and gro ph at around 6 and a ppm reading of about 290. it is mostly a seawed extract that they are in at the moment, but there is a little bit o pbp grow in there. the reason im asking is cuz a couple were gettin slight buns on the leaf fringes, but i think its cuz the ph was drifting upwards of 6.8 i dont believe that 270-290 should be burning them.

green_thumb...

01-28-2009, 07:32 AM

i dont have a ppm reader but ive been mixing at 2tsp/gal and its workin pretty ok

sog army

01-28-2009, 12:58 PM

in early veg as in under 6" i use...with tap water or well water with ppms under 200
All these are per gallon ratios
10ml karma
7ml cal mag
10ml grow
4ml hygrozyme
Barricade silica at recommended dose
Subculture or some myco of some kind
House and Garden Roots Excel
If in soil 15ml molasses

After the plants are established say over 6-8"
My established veg formula is...
15ml Karma , Grow
10ml calmag
4ml hygrozyme
Barricade silica by advance at recommended dose
Subculture or some myco
House and Garden Roots Excel
If in soil 15ml molasses

I run that from day 1 flower to day 21 or week 3 sometime...

Then at week 3 rez change or after day 21
4ml hygrozyme
15mlKarma
10mlGrow
10mlBloom
10mlcalmag
15ml Sweet (if hydro)
Barricade silica at recommended dose
Subculture or some myco of some kind
House and Garden Roots Excel
If in soil 15ml molasses sweet is still ok

I bump that mix cutting down the grow by 5ml. While adding back bloom by 5ml every week to 10 days.. Till around week 6.
and using this recipe for week 6 and 7

15ml Karma
15ml bloom
10ml calmag*(if in hydro) if in soil cut calmag here
15ml sweet (in hydro)
Barricade silica at recommended dose (cut out if in soil)
Subculture or some myco of some kind
If in soil 15ml molasses , sweet is ok.

Week 8
15ml karma
15ml bloom
15ml sweet

if in soil 15ml molasses , sweet is ok in soil too

Week 9
If in hydro drain rezzy 3/4 way and top with straight water run like that for a week...
If in soil I use 1/4 strength nutes

Week 10
FLush

Week 11
CHop

Thats my basic Pbp feed schedule...

Note..

I use the hydro bloom formula in early flower and the soil & coco one in late flower and budswell at 15ml weeks 2-6

itsjustaride

02-27-2009, 06:50 AM

can i use earth juice microblast instead of calmag? with RO water. i already have a large container of it. i'm using pbp bloom/grow soil liquid karma and molasiss in promix. just using less than recomended of all.

inreplyavalon

03-03-2009, 08:41 PM

If i am feeding a mix of the Botanicare PBP line and additives with RO, and doing it 3x a day in coco, how low can i keep the PPM's? IF they are getting food three times then they should be fine with a lower EC, right? I could have sworn i have read this before but cannot find where.
I also always end up over feeding when i have healthy plants because i see the ec ppm's folks are feeding on this site. Anyone help a brother out?

movingtocally

03-05-2009, 09:18 AM

plantman969

04-12-2009, 01:08 AM

Hello All, I am a first timer on my own and started with the advice of an older fella. He used PBP Grow, hydroguard, and sweet and silica blast.

Now this was a while ago and since then as u all know there is no hydoguard.
so when i decided to start a small grow i was lost. Since then i have done nothing but read post after post after post i mean day after day tryg to gather s much info as possible before jumping into it. You know the basics first. Now i do have some experience behind my belt with an aero flow 20 a ew years back thats when i got my fist formula. well me and my roomates made it till two weeks till harvest and got robbed. Since then move away and lived and learned. Young dumb and well just stupid.

I now have two DWC totes 1 - 14gal with a rez of 9 gal reaching the bottom of my 3- 3.75" net cups. Flower room 2x2x6 250 mh/hps conversion ballest over 3 plants. 4" Carbon Filter 170cfm exaust, 2 - 4" 80cfm inline fans for intake, and two 6" clip fans for inside circulation. temps 68-87 humitity low -34%.

Tote 2 veg box 3'widex3'tallx22"deep 125wCFL 6400k 7500 lumens and two cfl flood lights 65 or 95w cant remember 2700k 1200-1800 lumens each. 10gal tote 6 gallon rez for seeds and clones and mothers - 3 moms and 3 seeds/clones. 6 holes for 3" net pots. Cut out the bottom of the 3.75 net pots for transplanting to flower room. Need to finish air in and out

I decided to go with the botaicare line do to the "organic" nature of their nutes and its what i am familier with. Also a few extras.

I have Botanicare:
PBP Grow
PBP Bloom
Calmag
Liquid Karma
Sweet
Silica Blast

Also run Advanced Nutrients:
Voodoo Juice
Sensizym - Next purchase before rez change.
B52
pH Up
pH Down

and tryed Roots Organic Trinity- Has molassas dont use didnt help. just my opinion.

I started on 3/3 from seed Super Lemon Haze, Cheisel, and Super Thia Skunk. I lost every thing except 3 LH, 3 Thai had bad problems of seeds germinating but never comingup after being planted in the rockwool.
well in the end found out my problem and fixed it. so far i have 2 LH and 1 Thai going. gave two of the thai and a LH to a friend we transplanted them from hydro dwc to dirt (easier than i thouht). I aslo started 3 seeds on 3/29 in the veg box 1 barneys farm nightshade, 1 Greenhouse Seeds Alaskan Ice, and 1 Big Budda Chiesel.

in the flower room i am running at pH5.85/68-77f/2.22 ec/ 1540ppm
i just had a drastic problem and almost lost the crop when i flushed the rez and changed to 12/12. only added bloom nutes mixed them all in one container shooting the ph to 4.2 and all i could do till the next day was get the rez up to 4.6 they set in that over night and well it was not good.
reflushed the nxt day and added to many nutes because the rez foamed bigger than shit and the plants were not looking any better. so i flushed and changed the rez a third time with out the roots organig trinity (molassis-which i though would be good for the voodoo juice, it wasnt thats what made my rez foam) and ended up trimming almost all of the leafs off all three plants. that was on 4/4. So i started the the new res at
ph5.6/71f/1.11ec/780ppm to help revive them

since then i have been bumping up the nutes every day mixed at
and in this order
1 Gallon RO water 5-7ppm ph 7.2

10ml Liquid Karma - ph5.9/75f/.46ec/226ppm
10ml Sweet -forgot to take reading
7ml Calmag - ph5.92/75f/1.38ec/960ppm
2ml b52 - ph5.8/75f/1.5ec/1040ppm
2ml Silica Blast- ph6.5/75/1.5/1070ppm
15ml PBP Grow - ph5.35/75f/2.71ec/1890ppm final Readings

I use what is needed in the larger rez and what is left i dilute with more ph balanced RO water and top off my veg box.

got a few questions for a few but the post is long and my girl is nagging so see ya soon.

inreplyavalon

04-14-2009, 10:19 AM

plantman969

04-14-2009, 06:39 PM

Thanks for posting your recipe Plantman. I am scared as hell to bring my ppms that high, probably because i used to burn the hell out of plants with PBP in soil. I am on my second coco run now, and am creeping up the ppms. Haen't gotten past 1200 though.

Like i said i start low and add high. My res is not that high that was the total of my add back mixes my rez sets at

Bloom Box Sprouted 3/8 - pH 5.78/74f/2.34ec/1630ppm/TDS 1330

Veg Box w/2- 2 week old plants from seed 4/1- pH 5.91/71f/1.51ec 1050ppm/TDS 828

sog army

06-01-2009, 12:26 PM

inreplyavalon..

in response to your pm.. yeah I get my ppms up that high (2000 at max) it is strain dependant but ive found.. If i can feed em at 1500+ i can get em up to 2000 at week 4-6

hope that helps..

sog

rrog

07-13-2009, 09:36 PM

Sorry to veer thread off course. Are there nute changes in organic hydro? Seems that there wouldn't be considering the beneficial orgs present.

So we just keep adding nutes and water?

Dr. G

07-15-2009, 08:39 AM

for people useing additives some of the ppms dont matter

you need to imput your nutes into that calculator

the thing is some of the ppms arent food so they make the ppms seem higher then they really are

i think this is why lk raises the ppms so much

now that doesnt mean bump up your nutes it just means find otu what your really feeding them

Shady Sativa

10-20-2009, 05:25 AM

I'm really having problems with PBP, CalMag, and Liquid Karma in my ebb n flow tray, but my soil plants are doing well. What's the appropriate range of PPM's for veg about a month into growth? My seedlings are now over 1' tall in soil but less than 5" in hydro. They're currently at 400 PPM (100 PPM of CalMag, 100 of Liqud Karma, and 200 of PBP Grow in R/O water) and the pH is correct for both soil and hydro so I'm thinking the lack of benificial microbes and mycorrhizae has left the hydro plants unable to properly uptake nutes especially P, K, Ca, and Mg... Shit I may have to revert back to GH's 3 part formula.... Or maybe I could mix the two?
:fsu:

EDIT: btw my Hanna meter tells me that CalMag is very strong if I use 5 mL/gal. Easily over 300 PPM. So 100 PPM is about 1 to 2 mL/gal...

3dDream

10-20-2009, 06:11 AM

Shady feed them more food - 600-800 ppm. These are my in veg amounts per gallon: 10-12 ml PBP and 3-4 calmag in coco (the rest is gravy - 5-10 ml of LK) . You should use 5ml of calmag every time since it's RO. Just my :2cents:.

http://www.icmag.com/gallery/data/500/thumbs/26811jbcplusf13_red.jpg ('http://www.icmag.com/gallery/data/500/26811jbcplusf13_red.jpg')

Shady Sativa

10-20-2009, 07:07 AM

^^^ hmmm thx for the feedback. These hydro seedlings are in a rapid rooter and only hydroton. I wonder how that affects the mix vs coco. So it sounds like half of the 600 ppm comes from the CalMag.

Btw I have a very bad track record of overfeeding my plants. Shit I burned the hell out of my White Widow when she was over 2 ft tall. She's in FFHF AND FFLW and Same nutes. I screwed up and fed her 1300 ppm under my 600w HPS and many leaves crashed and burned. Now she's been at 800 PPM for several weeks and seems very yellow and hungry.

3dDream

10-22-2009, 05:38 AM

re:feeding: Coco is inert. We are feeding them the same way.

re:overfeeding: You are answering your own question. "Now she's been at 800 PPM for several weeks and seems very yellow and hungry." Just watch the plants and adjust as needed.

BudZad7

11-10-2009, 07:27 AM

Hi All! :wave: Very nice mixes.....Here's a Very Good Mix.....6"x6" rockwool
adjust PPM to 900/ EC 1.8~~~Ph-5.8 water temp 70 degrees

Call it Super 7.... PBPGrow= 1.5 tsp per gal RO water
Calmag+= 1 tsp per gal
Sweet-Berry= 2 tsp per gal
Liquid Karma= 2 tsp per gal
Pot O Gold= 3 tsp per gal
Sensizym= 2 tsp per gal
Carboload Powder= 1/4 tsp per gal

Maxicrop liquid seaweed= 1 capful per gal (once per week)
Blackstrap molasses= 1 tsp per 2 gal (once per week)

The above mix applys to the Bloom cycle also, except
PBPBloom= 1.5 tsp per gal RO water
Calmag+= 1 tsp per gal
Sweet-Berry= 3 tsp per gal
Liquid Karma= 2 tsp per gal
Pot O Gold= 3 tsp per gal
Sensizym= 2 tsp per gal
Carboload Powder= 1/4 tsp per gal

Maxicrop liquid seaweed= 1 capful per gal (once per week)
Blackstrap molasses= 1 tsp per 2 gal (once per week)

Bloom finish cycle: same as above bloom cycle, except
PBPBloom/soil= 1.5 tsp per gal RO water/or Overdrive= 2 tsp
per gal
Calmag+= 1 tsp per gal
Sweet-Berry= 3 tsp per gal
Liquid Karma= 2 tsp per gal
Pot O Gold= 3 tsp per gal
Sensizym= 2 tsp per gal
Carboload Powder= 1/4 tsp per gal

Maxicrop liquid seaweed= 1 capful per gal (once per week)
Blackstrap molasses= 1 tsp per 2 gal (once per week)

Then FLUSH with Final Phase=2 tsp per gal 7~10 days,
check ppm of flush water daily, you will see a steady drop
Then flush with plain RO water for as long as it takes
maybe a day, 3 days or week, til ppm/EC won't show on the
EC/PPM meter ....then CHOP CHOP CHOP AWAYYYYY!!!

With this mix, people thought it was grown in soil outdoors!!

So, try it you might enjoy it!!!:woohoo::abduct:Peace!!!