The Answer is in the Math

[JackTheGrower]

Dedicated to those fortunate few who find the Answers in numbers!

I am one~!


Jack

[JackTheGrower]

So why is the Number 7 considered lucky?

[lordbudly]

no clue why 7 is lucky, but...... why is 47 the inner meaning of the universe?

[PazVerdeRadical]

I am one~!



me 2!


but in geometry, every circle has within itself seven smaller circles whose diameter measures exactly 1/3 of the diameter of the circle that contains them.

also, if you mark the circumference of a circle with seven equidistant points, and join these up without retracting a line, we get exactly 21 links with the centre, therefore 22 factors. 22 letters of the old alphabets etc...

seven is also the hebrew letter zain, which means victory in all worlds, and also means endurance.

others say it is the number that symbolizes God.

my two cents.


no clue why 7 is lucky, but...... why is 47 the inner meaning of the universe?


I don't know why 47 is the inner meaning of the universe, why?

and I still chuckle when I see that sig hahahaha....

thanks!

peace

[sirgrassalot]

http://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=125&pictureid=138947
In the hands of Isis or Osiris the
SS was a symbol of magical or mystical powers
maybe the original magic wand.
http://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=125&pictureid=138953Seth the God of Evil murdered his brother Osiris
he's the prototype Satan in Christianity
http://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=125&pictureid=138948

#2 would be a coiled cobra ~~ Twice Wise

[JackTheGrower]

Nice..


I have found Fibonacci sequence in all form of the 3x+y / 2 dynamic equations..

Love it that there is infinite meaning to a single alphabet.

The basis of this is the Collatz Conjecture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collatz_conjecture)

It suggests that all energy is attracted to an end.. Thus to me the example of life and death.. I like it because there is no final destruction just a state of endless cycle while the universe of existence ( in this case the computer iterating logic ) continues on.

I think that's the core of it.. Patterns in time while the wheel turns..


That's my numbers..

Love to explore all these ideas and more.

What, we have the Torah, The binary of the I Ching ( I like that one a lot ) and more I can't think of..

[JackTheGrower]

me 2!


but in geometry, every circle has within itself seven smaller circles whose diameter measures exactly 1/3 of the diameter of the circle that contains them.

also, if you mark the circumference of a circle with seven equidistant points, and join these up without retracting a line, we get exactly 21 links with the centre, therefore 22 factors. 22 letters of the old alphabets etc...

seven is also the hebrew letter zain, which means victory in all worlds, and also means endurance.

others say it is the number that symbolizes God.

my two cents.





I don't know why 47 is the inner meaning of the universe, why?

and I still chuckle when I see that sig hahahaha....

thanks!

peace

Lothar Collatz studied 1/3 as a cycle!

I think you understand why!

[sirgrassalot]

Here's Set as the ancients painted him in red with his was sceptre.
http://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=125&pictureid=139337
http://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=125&pictureid=139338
That's an Aardvark, ever make it with an Aardvark? (Fritzthecat)
The Bull is sacred to his cult.



Two
The Egyptian rulers and deities wore the cobra *2*
the uraeus on their headdress, they're twice wise.
http://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=125&pictureid=139350
http://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=125&pictureid=139345
The name Isis is formed by the Hiss of her sacred asp the cobra aka serpent ~ Hiss Hiss ~ You know why. The letter S is also from the Cobra ready to strike. The capital letter Z also has its origins in the sceptre the lower case z the Rattlesnake ready to strike with the buzz of their tail. http://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=125&pictureid=139989They had the cure for the bite of the asp, but they had no antidote for the venom of vipers. They kept Cobras as pets for their venom.

"Their wine is the poison of dragons and the cruel venom of asps." Deut. 32:33.



Who knows why Egyptians knew of Rattlesnakes?

The Massasagua Rattlesnake is the most widespread species of rattlesnake in North America. It ranges from Ontario to Saskatchewan in the north, and from Florida to Arizona in the south. The Massasagua Rattlesnake's name is composed of M = Mother plus assas = Isis plus agua = water. The name Massasagua says Mother-Isis-Water.

We've had record bites this year in Ontario with emergency calls for antidote from snake farmers all over the province, apparently $20,000.00 a shot.

[h^2 O]

math is weak. Archaeology is cool. See how archaeology saved the thread from gayness?

[Miss Blunted]

no clue why 7 is lucky, but...... why is 47 the inner meaning of the universe?


Why is 47 the inner meaning of the universe LB?? Just asking because it's always been my favorite number...hm.

^^ My 1,000th post...weeeeee:)

[MarquisBlack]

"You fly too high - life is not mathematics, Max!"

Great thread.

[DonkeyPunch]

why is 47 the inner meaning of the universe?


Do you mean 42, the answer to life, the universe, and everything?

[geopolitical]

I definitely see the answer.

[randude101]

I like to roll and smoke numbers.

[sirgrassalot]

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0

is the third in the Trinity. Assur (Osiris~~Sir) was wise & number 1 was his penis. They were giants than & after. He was the first King the first God the first Wise. He brought his people out of ignorance & savagery after the flood. Isis was twice wise the Goddess of double wisdom the mother goddess, the genes of Isis our Genesis & Heru her son is thrice wise which represents action a God of action.
http://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=125&pictureid=139977

Horus/Heru is the Hawk God = 3

http://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=125&pictureid=139990

Imagine a hawk 3 3 3 3 soaring in the sky.

There's # 1 http://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=125&pictureid=139988+2 http://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=125&pictureid=139345 =3
http://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=125&pictureid=139976

The immaculate conception


Mother Goddess Isis & Horus ~~ Mother Mary & Jisis
http://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=125&pictureid=140033


ye deaf, ye blind follow me to the lobster traps

[Care Free 1]

So why is the Number 7 considered lucky?

Because it can be made the most ways on a pair of dice:

7 = 6 ways
6 & 8 = 5 ways each
5 & 9 = 4 ways each
4 & 10 = 3 ways each
Everything else = 1 & 2 ways each

If you want to win at craps then go with the house and have 7 be your lucky number.

Number 7 is also the number of completion.

[JWP]

For me to watch this vid i have to play music over the top. If you like numbers you will like this. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=89081654562056 11761

[daddy fingaz]

has anyone seen the film PI ? worth a watch if ur interested in this sorta thing!

[JackTheGrower]

Yes I own that movie PI.. Kinda interesting on the Torah.. I didn't know.

I disagree that the Stock Market is a system related to life.. Death maybe but not life IMO..

So what is Numerology? I was thinking someone would show up and chat about that but maybe I have to prompt the conversation.

[PazVerdeRadical]

daddy fingaz, yeah, I have watched that movie, pretty good/entertaining. :)

funny Jack mentiones numerology after fingaz mentiones that movie, since there is a line there, spoken by the older dude who was a friend/teacher of the lead character, they played chess together, and the old dude tells him to be careful not to become a numerologist, which is a derogatory thing to be called for a mathematician.

i think numerology is pretty interesting, but do not know much about it.

much peace

[randude101]

Here is an old story my grandfather passed on to me when I was a boy.

During the North African campaign, a bunch of soldier boys had been on a long hike and they arrived in a little town called Casino.
The next morning being Sunday, several of the boys went to Church.
A sergeant commanded the boys in Church and after the Chaplain had read the prayer, the text was taken up next. Those of the boys who had a prayer book took them out, but this one boy had only a deck of cards, and so he spread them out.

The Sergeant saw the cards and said, "Soldier, put away those cards."

After the services was over, the soldier was taken prisoner and brought before the Provost Marshall. The Marshall said, "Sergeant, why have you brought this man here?"

"For playing cards in church, Sir."
"And what have you to say for yourself, son?"

"Much, Sir," replied the soldier.

The Marshall said, "I hope so, for if not I shall punish you more than any man was ever punished."

The soldier said, "Sir, I have been on the march for about six days.

I have neither a Bible nor a prayer book, but I hope to satisfy you, Sir, with the purity of my intentions." And with that, the boy started his story:

"You see Sir, when I look at the Ace, it reminds me that there is but one God.

And the Deuce reminds me that the Bible
is divided into two parts, the Old and the New Testaments.

When I see the Trey, I think of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.

And when I see the Four, I think of the four Evangelists who preached the Gospel; there was Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

And when I see the Five, it reminds me of the five wise virgins who trimmed their lamps; there were ten of them: five were wise and were saved, five were foolish and were shut out.

When I see the Six, it reminds me that in six days, God made this great heaven and earth.

When I see the Seven, it reminds me that on the seventh day, God rested from His great work.

And when I see the Eight, I think of the eight righteous persons God saved when He destroyed this earth; there was Noah, his wife, their sons and their wives.

And when I see the Nine, I think of the lepers our Savior cleansed, and nine out of the ten didn't even thank Him.

When I see the Ten, I think of the Ten Commandments God handed down to Moses on a table of stone.

When I see the King, it reminds me that there is but one King of Heaven, God Almighty.

And when I see the Queen, I think of the Blessed Virgin Mary, who is Queen of Heaven.

And the Jack or Knave is the Devil.

When I count the number of spots on a deck of cards,

I find 365, the number of days in a year. There are 52 cards, the number of weeks in a year. There are 4 suits, the number of weeks in a month.

There are 12 picture cards, the number of months in
a year.

There are 13 tricks, the number of weeks in a quarter.

So you see, Sir, my pack of cards serves me as a Bible, an Almanac and a Prayer Book."

"And friends, the story is true. I know, I was that soldier."

[PazVerdeRadical]

hahaha fun story randude :)

here is some more math related stuff:

Godel's ontological proof: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_ontological_pro of

[JoJoDancer]

The only numbers that matter..
0
1
10
11
100
101
110
111
1000
1001
1010
1011
1100
1101
1110
1111

[JackTheGrower]

St. Anselm's ontological argument, in its most succinct form, is as follows: "God, by definition, is that than which a greater cannot be thought.

Reading that link to Godel.. So true that Logic is a wondrous area of study but, I disagree that there is an ultimate..

I believe so because of pattern of sequence in all forms of [3x+y,x/2].. For example.

Given a language with an alphabet of only two symbols [ 0,1 ] and the rule that there can be no word that contains two (1) symbols together I can show that there is infinite sequence.
Given the Collatz conjecture system of 3x+1, x/2 it is conjectured that all values for the starting x end in a repeating cycle of 4,2,1,4,2,1...

So then since any odd times three plus 1 is even there can be no back to back odd events and so a grammar is clear.

Let 0 stand for x/2 and 1 stand for 3x+1

In One step only the 3x+1 or the x/2 operations are possible [ 0 or 1 ]
in Two steps [00, 01 or 10 ]
in three [ 000, 001, 010, 100, 101 ] is possible no more,

So the count of the allowed "word lengths" are 1,3,5 and as it is a Fibonacci progression 8,13,21,34... Thus infinite sequence.. There is never an end so God doesn't exist. How could he according to St. Anselm's ontological argument?

[JackTheGrower]

The only numbers that matter..
0
1
10
11
100
101
110
111
1000
1001
1010
1011
1100
1101
1110
1111

Do you do data compression? One of my hobbies is writing encoders.

Here is a thing I discovered at Lunch one day.

There is a thing called the pigeon hole principle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pigeon_hole_principle)

It's at the heart of why we cannot compress data past a certain point..

I am able to show however, that I can compress all binary numbers by one bit without exception.

So in a specific context I can beat the pigeon hole principle.

LOL yes I can..

Alright you data compression guys I posted this years ago in the dat compression news group.

Given any binary string where the length is to the most significant set bit such that "1011" ( 11 in decimal ) is 4 bits in length I can represent that in three bits.. Or for any binary number represented with MSSB length N, I can represent with N-1 bits

If anyone is curious that is... never bore the guests is my motto..


Jack

[JackTheGrower]

Here is an old story my grandfather passed on to me when I was a boy.

During the North African campaign ..

I have neither a Bible nor a prayer book, but I hope to satisfy you..



I liked that story.. The Tarot is related to the standard deck of card yes?

[sirgrassalot]

Powers Of 10 ~ Here's a classic from my school days.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2cmlhfdxuY

[JackTheGrower]

Hey Sirgrassalot I like that video.. The Micro and the Macro for sure.. Quantum stuff is cool too.

I wrote about my interest in the pattern of [3x+y,x/2] dynamic systems and how they all follow a alphabet of only two symbols. I thought that maybe that seems to just be "Math stuff" to some so I wanted show another Alphabet who's Grammar I wish I understood.. That Alphabet is the alphabet of DNA..

What is DNA's alphabet? (http://www.yourgenome.org/dgg/general/code/code_1.shtml)
DNA's code is written in only four 'letters', called A, C, T and G. The meaning of this code lies in the sequence of the letters A, T, C and G in the same way that the meaning of a word lies in the sequence of alphabet letters. Your cells read the DNA sequence to make chemicals that your body needs to survive.

So while under the dynamic systems of [3x+y,x/2] have unique phraseology depending on the values of x and y; the domain of DNA could be called the language of life and it's phrases are the words of life.

So there are alphabets in all things.. There are patterns that can be expressed in an alphabet such as DNA and [3x+y,x/2]...

So the Answer is in the Math IMO.. All our efforts to communicate are patterns. All our perceptions are patterns and I would conjecture that there are alphabets to it all.
To use a Beatles lyric "There is nothing you can know that can't be known"

Across the Universe (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rj-4t9drUlM)

[ureapwhatusow]

Really the statement should be define all of the universe with math

for that we woudl have to define the ultimate mathematical truth.

In my mind the ultimate mathematical truth would have some distinct characteristics

I think our closest mathematical expression to identify it would be the algorithm

it would have to be congruent with and be the lowest common denominator to all of our known sciences

I believe the that in our quest to define the creation of the universe, and the driving force behind evolution are where this algorithm will be discovered

[JackTheGrower]

Really the statement should be define all of the universe with math

for that we would have to define the ultimate mathematical truth.

In my mind the ultimate mathematical truth would have some distinct characteristics

I think our closest mathematical expression to identify it would be the algorithm

it would have to be congruent with and be the lowest common denominator to all of our known sciences

I believe the that in our quest to define the creation of the universe, and the driving force behind evolution are where this algorithm will be discovered


I see your point on algorithm and the lowest common denominator.


But what runs that? What make that algorithm run.. That's where I feel sequence is endless.. I don't know how to say it starts here because how did "here" get "there."


What do you think ureapwhatusow?

[PazVerdeRadical]

Jack, I dunno if Godel ever proved his formalization of the ontological argument, but to me it is still interesting.

however, the real bomb Godel dropped was his Incompleteness Theorems:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_incompleteness_ theorems

check it out

much peace all

[ureapwhatusow]

I see your point on algorithm and the lowest common denominator.


But what runs that? What make that algorithm run.. That's where I feel sequence is endless.. I don't know how to say it starts here because how did "here" get "there."


What do you think ureapwhatusow?

Ok having skipped most of what formal education has to offer I will try to describe in the best terms i posses


im thinking an algorithm that woudl describe a fractal in a multi dimensional array that depicts a self perpetuating pattern that regardless of its various expressions starts and ends at a constant value

[JackTheGrower]

Yes I have a small grasp on that.

Turing Machines demonstrate that..

I kinda figure that which is possible is possible at all times. The existence of it is conditional to pattern.

The incompleteness in my mind, is like our imaginations conceiving that horses fly and are blue.. We can do so but it is "not real" but who is to say it doesn't happen some place.. Same hold true with laws of physics.. Why can we imagine things that do not equate to reality? Is it that it does exist but in some other reality that we can understand but are not a part of..

Oh man I am not qualified to "boldly go" here.. LOL

[JackTheGrower]

Ok having skipped most of what formal education has to offer I will try to describe in the best terms i posses


im thinking an algorithm that woudl describe a fractal in a multi dimensional array that depicts a self perpetuating pattern that regardless of its various expressions starts and ends at a constant value

Np I dig it.

None of us hold the key or we would open the door for sure..

[JackTheGrower]

So anyone like the I Ching? You know it's based on a binary system..

[JackTheGrower]

Ok having skipped most of what formal education has to offer I will try to describe in the best terms i posses


Ya Know this reply has been on my mind since I read it..

With Respect; We all are a motion in a flow and our life is the focal point.

The rest is the perceptions from the beginning to the end of our lives: From the Womb to the Tomb.

In Philosophical terms if One and One works than Logically all we are, a value in motion, in the System of Life; if we see that there is object and pattern; No shame ever; for life. Blessings and love.

I'm like a nerd at heart.


Jack

[sanchez]

numbers (and math) do not provide the answers, merely the questions.\

*edit: Ok, so that's some philosophical BS.... but it's sort of true. The numeric system is somewhat universal ... and I'm no petty mathematician, I'm a College dropout. Math is. Just as God is one. Nobody invented one, it's just one. So......

[BubsNugs]

Well fuck me i couldn't even figure out grade 11 factoring lol.
Its a hell of a intresting world we live in I wish i had paid more attention to math n science its pretty cool. My old man is a physicist o boy hes gotta be proud . :)

Peace

[JackTheGrower]

When I sit down to work the "code" I believe. I believe in the math.

I have to.. Where it's been hard is seeing the math as it really is and how it relates to other things when I am maybe seeing things no one has before.. Only maybe cuz how would I know for sure.

I'm no collage grad.. Just an enthusiast for the dynamic systems I have played with. I have written data encoders. They take binary data and express it in a systems I design. That that encoding can also be read and converted back to the original source binary is what makes it a valid encoder.
So not having formal education.. Junior College level algebra is all I have had.. I'm all cool with all points of view..
I doubt I can find fault in any post.. Serious.. It's all good everyone.. I'd like to think there will be no finger pointing and disrespecting in this thread..

“Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we now know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire world, and all there ever will be to know and understand.”

Albert Einstein

[lordbudly]

Why is 47 the inner meaning of the universe LB?? Just asking because it's always been my favorite number...hm.

^^ My 1,000th post...weeeeee:)
http://www.47.net/47society/ every number equals 47 in a sense, like the earth is at a 23.5 degree angle to the sun, half of 47, jesus performed 47 miracles in the bible, etc, etc, grats on the 1,000 posts, ive asked people to pick a number between 45 and 50 and many times when they arent thinking they just pop out 47, without thinking, of course its your favorite number, you a prophet? its a number of life, death, miracles, and destruction, the 47 miracles, the ak47,
Do you mean 42, the answer to life, the universe, and everything?

donkey answer me this what the f*ck is 42 and why has it got so much thunder in like the last 4 months...?

[JackTheGrower]

God and Data compression.

If there is a creator and that creator created everything then how did he get around the pidgin hole principle?

I mean at some point the information for everything must have come from a much more compact place. We see this in the Big Bang.

Is it magic or is there Math behind it?

[JackTheGrower]

Hey.. There is truth in the mathematical.. for sure.. Not many of us need quadratic equations to get through the day but it's there.

So too is the alphabet of life DNA.. So to other truths we can't grasp yet..

It's all there and we shouldn't shudder under the realization; seriously.

Think about it.. if the Universe is a place in play then we are but parts of the greater whole.. Not bad if you think about it. I sure don't mean this thread to be a who is smarter then who thread.. hell no..


If you have an idea and that is your expression in this moment of your life.. I will kick ass on anyone who bust a move on that.

Seriously.. I'm just a layman who dreams.. Don't ask me to write a proof.. And Damn anyone who condemns a person for expressing their thoughts..

As with an old YES song.. "What I don't know I have never shared.." It can mean different things.. The meaning i held to heart was "The meaning of : What I don't know.. I have never shared the question with others,,"

Seriously please feel free.. This is a heartfelt thread..

Jack

[JackTheGrower]

I'm open to entertain with this system.. Seriously it's so simple and yet so profound..

I am considering making the encoding public domain because in the world of snooping on digital communications what if every message is spelled similarly? That the spelling is so close or so odd can the computer really process all the traffic?

yeah F'em..

Or in short Support the FM movement..

But seriously.. This general system has a beginning, like our birth, then it progresses to some cycle as long as there is some impus of continuance.

So in a short sentence.. We can theorize that some number is a "Birth of life" being and that the cycle is life's experiences and the end is not an end but a cycle as long as the wheel spins..

So the wheel spins like the Universe expands..

it's so really simple no one will be lost or tossed. I promise..

Jack

[*hydro*]

http://indianinthemachine.files.wordp ress.com/2009/07/666_bar_code_in_rfid.jpg
It's on every barcode and it pisses me off,
you don't have to be religious, "they" refuse to change it!

:sasmokin:fukit if i steal a bag of munchies does it still count?

[JackTheGrower]

Numerology

This is an area I have not ventured into very far.. Any Numerolgy people around for a chat?

[sirgrassalot]

http://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=5774&pictureid=191327

[JackTheGrower]

I'm a bit out of sync with my sick kitty today.. That eye sounds interesting.. care to elaborate?

[sirgrassalot]

In arithmetic

In the Ancient Egyptian measurement system, the Eye Of Horus defined an Old Kingdom rounded off number one (1) = 1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 + 1/16 + 1/32 + 1/64, by throwing away 1/64. The Eye of Horus statements created six-term rounded-off numbers. The Old Kingdom definition had dropped a seventh term, a remainder 1/64, that was needed to report exact series. During the Middle Kingdom that included the eleventh through fourteenth dynasties, exact series definitions and applications were written by creating seven terms, or more, written as Egyptian fraction series, often scaled to 1/320 hekat. For example, the Egyptian Mathematical Leather Roll, the RMP 2/n table and the Akhmim Wooden Tablet wrote quotients and Egyptian fraction remainders that solved the problem. The metaphorical side of this information linked the Old Kingdom six fractions, 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, 1/16, 1/32, and 1/64, to separate parts of the eye, as noted by:

* 1/2 was represented by smell, symbolized by the right side of the eye in a form of the nose. The pyramid text says: "Behold [the fire] rises in Abydos and it comes; I cause it to come, the Eye of Horus. It is set in order upon thy brow, O Osiris Khenti-Amenti; it is set in the shrine and rises on thy brow."

* 1/4 was represented by sight or the sensation of light, symbolized by the pupil. The pyramid text says: "Perfect is the Eye of Horus. I have delivered the Eye of Horus, the shining one, the ornament of the Eye of Ra, the Father of the Gods."

* 1/8 was represented by thought, symbolized by the eyebrow. The pyramid text says: "...the Eye of Horus hath made me holy...I will hide myself among you, O ye stars which are imperishable. My brow is the brow of Ra."

* 1/16 was represented by hearing, symbolized by the left side of the eye in the form of an arrow pointing towards the ear. The pyramid text says: "That which has been shut fast/dead hath been opened by the command of the Eye of Horus, which hath delivered me. Established are the beauties on the forehead of Ra."

* 1/32 was represented by taste, by the sprouting of wheat or grain from the planted stalk, symbolized by a curved tail. The pyramid text says: "Come, the Eye of Horus hath delivered for me my soul, my ornaments are established on the brow of Ra. Light is on the faces of those who are in the members of Osiris."

* 1/64 was represented by touch, symbolized by a leg touching the ground, or what can also be thought of as a strong plant growing into the surface of the earth. The pyramid text says: "I shall see the Gods and the Eye of Horus burning with fire before my eyes!"

Earthenware Wedjat amulet on display at the Louvre, c. 500–300 BC

In the Middle Kingdom the 1/64 symbol denoted 'rest' and 'healing' as connected to the hekat, with the word dja being attached.

The 'Eye of Horus' fractions were further discussed in the Egyptian Mathematical Leather Roll following elementary definitions that built the Egyptian fraction system. Weights and measure subunits of a hekat were also connected to Eye of Horus numbers in the quotient, and as an exact remainder, the remainder including an Egyptian fraction and a ro unit, correcting the Eye of Horus 1/64 roundoff error. The ro unit, 1/320 of a hekat, is cited in the Rhind Mathematical Papyrus and applied in the medical texts, i.e. Ebers Papyrus in two ways. The first replaced the hekat by a unity, 64/64 (in RMP 47, 82 and 83), and the second by 320 ro (in RMP 35–38). Exact divisions of 64/64 by 3, 7, 10, 11 and 13, written as 1/3, 1/17, 1/10, 1/11 and 1/13 multipliers, are also found in the Akhmim Wooden Tablet. wiki

[sirgrassalot]

http://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=5774&pictureid=191767

Zeno's paradoxes are a set of problems generally thought to have been devised by Zeno of Elea to support Parmenides's doctrine that "all is one" and that, contrary to the evidence of our senses, the belief in plurality and change is mistaken, and in particular that motion is nothing but an illusion. It is usually assumed, based on Plato's Parmenides 128c-d, that Zeno took on the project of creating these paradoxes because other philosophers had created paradoxes against Parmenides's view. Thus Zeno can be interpreted as saying that to assume there is plurality is even more absurd than assuming there is only "the One" (Parmenides 128d). Plato makes Socrates claim that Zeno and Parmenides were essentially arguing exactly the same point (Parmenides 128a-b).


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeno%27s_paradoxes

[habeeb]

what does a number mean to you?

just because it was something to someone else, doesn't mean it holds anything to you or me..

what is real, is only what you believe to "be real" ..

[sirgrassalot]

what does a number mean to you?
Fantasy is fun weeee

http://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=5774&pictureid=191769

What did a # mean to a Jew in the big one? You're right though, but to calculate numbers inaccurately will probably be fatal, a mistake $$$ or worse. Each number has its meaning & origin in the Judgment scene of Assur/Osiris. Measure twice cut once. I now end todays programing for the night.

[JackTheGrower]

So their idea is of sequence.. is that meant to be units of measure? Like our 1,10,100 and such?

I have run into a concept like that "odd part(1/64) out, in my private study.

In the dynamic equations of 3/2 and 4/3 they differ in the parity language by one thing.

What is the reason to toss out part of the whole? I think I understand but i am not as informed as you sirgrassalot..

[sirgrassalot]

I think its just the Middle Kingdom Egyptian fraction conversions of binary fractions corrected a Eye of Horus numeration error.

The Old Kingdom Horus-Eye arithmetic employed an infinite series numeration system that rounded-off to 6-term binary fraction series, throwing away 1/64 units. Horus-Eye fractions are related to modern decimals, with both numeration systems rounding off, (Ore 1944: 331-325). Note that the Horus-Eye definition of one (1): 1 = 1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 + 1/16 + 1/32 + 1/64 + … dropped off the last term 1/64th, (Gillings 1972: 210). Modern decimals' round-off rules are closely related. The Middle Kingdom correction wrote exact finite series thereby eliminating binary round off errors.

[JackTheGrower]

I've worked with pattern. Much like binary a value is expressed dynamically.
I actually call it encoding since the original value can be recovered from the dynamic expression.

To me it expresses the stream of existence in simple terms. With [3x+1,x/2] x is whatever value we are looking at or observing. A state of value in flux or the dynamic quantity.

if it is even then divide by two if odd multiply by 3 and add an odd in this case one..

represent the even event as parity bit symbol 0. Represent the Odd event with a 1 symbol.

Start 5 > 16 > 8 > 4 > 2 > 1 > 4 > 2 > 1 ...

100001001... since 1 is the attractor the expression is actually 10000

I find it spiritual.

[JackTheGrower]

I get it.

The Eye is about the whole.. The One.. The Sun...

That the whole or the one is divided into parts.

Then we have the Tao ( yin yang ) and that's two or binary then we that the trinity ( Christian ) and that is trinary.

Anyone else agree or disagree?

[Equilibrium]

Jack, this thread is so interesting... I don't have the level required to talk/debate, but I like it.

[JackTheGrower]

Jack, this thread is so interesting... I don't have the level required to talk/debate, but I like it.

If you like weed you should feel right at home.

Forget level.. I fiddle with the Colatz conjecture a decade or so and i learned a couple things is all.

Hey anyone figured out what 4 would be? I especially want to know what 5 does for folks.

[sirgrassalot]

One = 1 = Assur's Phallus also the capitals P~enis and B~alls

The Father God of the Pagans. One of the Pagan Trinity (3)
http://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=5774&pictureid=201012

The number 4 comes from the maat that Assur is upon, the stability of the King's wisdom & judgment.
http://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=5774&pictureid=201011
:yeahthats

Maat Goddess of Truth & Justice
http://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=5774&pictureid=201017
Maat is the wife of Thoth~Techu~Tekh scribe of the gods. He was the inventor of writing and of numbers, Mrs. Mathematics & Mr. Technology.

Students of the school of Thoth would sit on mats. In the Egyptian judgment scene (avatar) Assur's throne sits upon a maat, 4 is based on unalterable truths like the movements of the heavens, the changes of seasons, and the absolute certainty of mathematics.

"Great is truth (maat), the mighty and unalterable, and it has never been broken since the time of Osiris."
(From the Precepts of Ptah-Hetep, 2000BC.)

The letters F ~ f are from the truth feather & scales.... Ones Fate.... The Foundation of America's Liberty & Justice
http://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=5774&pictureid=201018
http://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=5774&pictureid=201010
The truth feather makes an arrows flight true it also sounds like f_f_f_when flying.
http://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=5774&pictureid=201045

[JackTheGrower]

Any connection to the Sun there with the number 1 or "whole" sirgrassalot?

[sirgrassalot]

http://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=5774&pictureid=201271Any connection to the Sun there with the number 1 or "whole" sirgrassalot?

The Sun God ~ Ra~Re rising on the Horizon (9 = The sunrise of life) was the original Ankh which means "Life" rebirth, rejuvenation, resurrection - Assur rising from the dead ~ Isis resurrected El that is the beginning of Assur & Pagans. It later became more with the sandal strap Ankh, ties around the Ankle. Representing the travels, teachings & work of Assur around the world. Sasquatch, Bigfoot, the Abominable snowman all footprints of Assur.
http://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=5774&pictureid=201263
http://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=5774&pictureid=201262

After Isis resurrected him from the dead, he went about carrying the arts of civilization to the world. Assur's legendary travels after his resurrection were missionary tours of emissaries of Isis. The spread of grain based agriculture and other arts of civilization throughout the world went with the Genesis of Isis. http://www.resurrectisis.org

We have 5,6,8 & Zero left.

[JackTheGrower]

So you are saying the origin of life is the phallic. Huh.. I remember a little about Egyptian culture. Woman was just a vessel and they didn't know what the brain did. Still they were an amazing culture!

I actually have an infinite series I am going by. I discovered this series a few years ago with my computer programming hobby.

Within the infinity of values we can discuss, this is the set I am most interested in.

0/0, 1/1, 2/1, 3/2, 4/3, 5/5, 6/8, 7/13 ...

The upper or numerator, number I assume to be the geometric part.

[sirgrassalot]

Shall we do 5 next...

[JackTheGrower]

I know what 4 is about.. 4 Elements.. I guess it could even be 5 elements (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fifth_Element)

Now I see the beauty.. In the dynamic equation of 4/3 I can see the basic system with.

Here is a link to a horoscope content page. ( B~OG inspired )
Link (http://www.north-node.com/astrology-tutorials/four-elements)

o Four elements
o Three members of each set, with unique meaning, can be indexed.
o Twelve months as the nature of a cycle.

That's a good one for Four.

What's your 5?



I'm all eyes for what may:


--------------------

Also 4 points define a pyramid I believe.

[JackTheGrower]

If the Collatz conjectured that all numbers of [3x+1,x/2] will cycle in 4,2,1,4,2,1 is this proof of a Soul?

Just tossing out a nibble here.

[GroDoc]

Numbers are fun. I've played with numerology some in the past. My take is that numbers offer a platform of common language. A platform for interpersonal interaction. They remain an incomplete esoteric estimation of reality. Danger lies in the reification of numbers - where symbology is mistaken for complete reality. It's comforting and efficient to apply numerical concepts to life, but life is not numbers.

Number, like language, is always saying what it cannot say. As the root of a certain kind of logic or method, mathematics is not merely a tool but a goal of scientific knowledge: to be perfectly exact, perfectly self-consistent, and perfectly general. Never mind that the world is inexact, interrelated, and specific, that no one has ever seen leaves, trees, clouds, animals, exactly the same, just as no two moments are identical. As Dingle said, “All that can come from the ultimate scientific analysis of the material world is a set of numbers,” reflecting upon the primacy of the concept of identity in math and its offspring, science.

peace

[JackTheGrower]

So, GroDoc,

Symbolism and Logic.. Particle and Wave...


Cool with me..

[GroDoc]

me too...:)

[JackTheGrower]

I'm interested. My interests range across several categories of common topics but I place an important priority on thinking along the Math lines..

I like to work with imagination. Math is the Field of Dreams.

Do you write computer code?

[danimal7]

how about the "exponential function"
steady world population growth rate 1.3 ,world population grow by a modest 1.3 % each year
if this continued for 780 years there would be 1 person for each square meter on the dry land surface
and if that modest rate continued for 2400years the mass of the people would equal the mass of the planet! ouch!
point is ....get ready for 0% growth rate in the future

lets apply this function to oil consumption
are global oil needs increase by about 7% each year,At 7% annual growth the doubling time is 10 years
in other words,, if we found today ,an oil field with more oil in it than has been used in all of history
it would last us ten years and then we would have to find one twice as big to go another 10 years.....this can't continue for long.... pretty simple math

[2fast4u2]

well, i do believe i found a place for guys like me..... You guys dont run exceptionally well put together "clean" setups by chance do you?

[2fast4u2]

btw, dont confuse me with a hawking fanboy, i do respect his work. Its through quantum physics that ive found comfort in where my "energy" will traverse when my time here expires.

with me?

[JackTheGrower]

btw, don't confuse me with a hawking fanboy, i do respect his work. Its through quantum physics that ive found comfort in where my "energy" will traverse when my time here expires.

with me?

Ah.. Maybe another friend that watches "What the Bleep do we know?" once a month or more..


I have the edition where it mixes up the segments to make a new movie each time.

I just lost a Cat.. My companion of over 14 years. I feel strong reminders of specific things about Her at odd times.

So with the knowledge that nothing escapes the Universe I see a spiritual connect.

Physicists talk about Information.. Hawking suggested that Information is lost in Black Holes then changed his mind.

I work with Data compression and the whole point is hanging on to that Information even tho the symbolism or value of an object changes is the only way Existence can survive.

so do we actually Die? I don't think so since my Cat passed.. The Information must have been here before and after or if created by life will be here after.

So yes the Answer is in the Math IMO..

[JackTheGrower]

how about the "exponential function"
steady world population growth rate 1.3 ,world population grow by a modest 1.3 % each year
if this continued for 780 years there would be 1 person for each square meter on the dry land surface
and if that modest rate continued for 2400years the mass of the people would equal the mass of the planet! ouch!
point is ....get ready for 0% growth rate in the future

lets apply this function to oil consumption
are global oil needs increase by about 7% each year,At 7% annual growth the doubling time is 10 years
in other words,, if we found today ,an oil field with more oil in it than has been used in all of history
it would last us ten years and then we would have to find one twice as big to go another 10 years.....this can't continue for long.... pretty simple math

Welcome to the Thread.

I have read posts here that suggest this thread is over the Head but it shouldn't be.

I am an ordinary man who can benefit by all the Math Info there is.

Yeah the growth rate is the thing.. And no Organism (The Earth qualifies) can sustain a Massive Infection for too long. I figure the future will bring a lot of killing of humans to protect the Wealthy when the resources start to fail Capitalism. Not to protect the planet mind ya..

[GroDoc]

"what the bleep do we know" - I love that flick. I think my favorite point was "How can you offend the God that created you the way you are?" I like this youtube graphic: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfPeprQ7oGc peace

[GroDoc]

Ratios, Rates, and Derivatives. Perspective and scale. Insanity and Wisdom. Fear and Love.

Sorry in advance for the rambling....

Numbers make a static symbolic snapshot of a dynamic non-symbolic reality. As a discipline of numbers, ratios are more illustrative as they offer context. The absolute amounts have little meaning unless placed in some comparative context.

Ratios change at a changing rate. The changing rate then changes at a changing rate etc. The more levels your model take it the more reliable predictor you create. At some point gains in predictability approach a point of diminishing returns on a human level.

Suppose you have a "ball" made of gillions of little flat surfaces. From our observation it behaves like a ball because 99.9999999999999999999% of the time it bounces like a ball. When it doesn't we often just don't notice. Expectation has filled the space between patterned snapshots. Like our eyes see motion in a sequential series of still frames. Same could be said for digital data. The smaller pieces you create the more the data seems to mirror the analog reality.

Practical issues of scale come into play. If I build a "ball" with 1 gillion flat surfaces at a cost of 1 arbitrary unit it approximates reality sufficiently for me to fill in the gaps. 100 Gillion flat surfaces would require 100 times the resource units with little practical gain in predictability.

Derivatives work in the other direction. Rather than breaking down into smaller parts, they take the parts and predict the aspects of a whole that is composed of those parts.

Money is a convenient example. There are people who make money when the stock market goes up and lose when it goes down. I'll call them "average joes". There are people who make money when the market is going up OR down as long as it is changing. These are the first derivative folks like stock brokers. There are people who make money with changes in the RATE of increase or decline. These are second derivative folks. I can grasp that concept. In my experience the human mind can only manage 2 or 3 levels of separation consciously.

So who are the folks that make money from the third and fourth derivatives? Those that make money based on the rate of change, of the rate of change, of the rate of change? They're out there buried in layers of derivatives. My mind starts to frump when I try to conceptualize these derivatives in terms of the concrete things I see and touch. This happens in politics, economics, religion and all other forms of symbology. There are those who are very aware of this phenomenon and have taken full advantage. Importance of seemingly benign assertions is masked by the complexity. Benignity of seemingly important assertions is similarly masked.

Then there are what I will call the "anti-derivatives". Average joe still has (some) upside potential. Below average jack ain't got a pot to piss in or a window to throw it out of. He is raped at every turn. Advertisement is designed to separate Jack from his hard earned dollars in the most efficient way possible. He works too hard for too little and then pays too much for too little. He trades his back for overpriced cigarettes and beer and then is marginalized because he is "poor". Monetary poverty is treated as moral poverty in this country. What little money he saves is stolen through inflation, taxes and fines.

So I assert that brilliance in the persuit of insanity is still insanity and that truth perceived simply is still truth. When numbers are used in the service of subjugation, they are insane regardless of how brilliantly conceived.

Why is subjugation insane? It implies a hierarchy of importance and value. It implies a separation that does not exist. At an extreme you might say that humans are more important than bacteria. This is only meaningful from the perspective of the "isolated" man. The man who believes his own body and thoughts to be his complete self. Man dies without bacteria. Bacteria do fine without man. There are more bacterial cells in the body than there are body cells. So how big do I draw the circle of ME. What are the implications? How truly separate is this body from those bacteria? How separate am I from my parents and their parents and the earth that nurtures me? Where does the root end and the soil begin? What are the implications for me the man? By the power of choice, I become grand or small, connected or separated, immortal or dying, loving or fearful.

Grandeur, connectedness, immortality and love are comforting. True strength with no need of attack or defense. Smallness, separateness, vulnerability and fear are uncomfortable. Fear attacks and defends. Love is harmless and defenseless.

So lets put numbers and science in the right context. As tools of mind they are effective shortcuts. That's what the mind does. They have great appeal to the mind because they are evaluative and approximate. They are a common language for the small part of ourselves that is concerned with personal survival. Placing undue primacy in the body and mind is integral to suffering.

The first mistake is an overinvestment in and identification with the ego mind giving rise to a sense of isolation and vulnerability. The second mistake is that your sense of isolation is related to some inherent "badness" about you. This places you in an unbearable psychological state. One where the mind fears and attacks itself. This could be the launching point for a spiritual awakening, a subordination of mind to spirit. This can also be the launching point for illness where personal demons are made real by your obsession with them, and then projected onto the world at large to relieve your guilt. I would venture that we as humans share these tendencies, and under uncomfortable circumstances we will all create an alternate reality for comfort. Well-worn crooked thought paths reinforce themselves till the possibility of another way escapes consciousness. We're tasked with undoing this error on an individual level and a societal level. Find the part of you you share with everything and everyone and let that be your focus. peace.

Ramble, ramble , ramble...

[GroDoc]

Imagine the basic substance of reality in this universe. Microparticles, strings, energy..whatever...just the basic substrate of existence. Now imagine some of this substance in a finite space. Now imagine the substance of another universe exchanging with your universe in some other-dimensional way like a wormhole. Imagine a ratio: Universe A/Universe B. Now imagine a changing of that ratio within the confined space as A and B are differentially transported through the wormhole. Not bad so far right. Now imagine that the rate of change of that ratio is changing at a rate that is also changing. Lost yet? I thought so. The point I make is that despite the possibility that all this can happen mathematically, the complexity is beyond the grasp of mind in a concrete sense. OK, you're a genius, and you can picture 4 or 5 levels of complexity simultaneously. How about 10 levels or 10,000 levels? At some point we just say "it's random". Is it? Or is "random" just the way for tools of estimation to deal with their own limitations. At what point does it matter or stop mattering? Like existential philosophy, numbers run aground on themselves at the extremes. In the setting of infinity all possibilities, no matter how remote, have already occurred an infinite number of times. In other words, moments exactly like this one have already happened an infinite number of times. I have been born, lived and died with the same sequence of events an infinite number of times. Just like the "more likely" possibilities like heads vs tails. Is one infinity bigger than another?

[danimal7]

Imagine the basic substance of reality in this universe. Microparticles, strings, energy..whatever...just the basic substrate of existence. Now imagine some of this substance in a finite space. Now imagine the substance of another universe exchanging with your universe in some other-dimensional way like a wormhole. Imagine a ratio: Universe A/Universe B. Now imagine a changing of that ratio within the confined space as A and B are differentially transported through the wormhole. Not bad so far right. Now imagine that the rate of change of that ratio is changing at a rate that is also changing. Lost yet? I thought so. The point I make is that despite the possibility that all this can happen mathematically, the complexity is beyond the grasp of mind in a concrete sense. OK, you're a genius, and you can picture 4 or 5 levels of complexity simultaneously. How about 10 levels or 10,000 levels? At some point we just say "it's random". Is it? Or is "random" just the way for tools of estimation to deal with their own limitations. At what point does it matter or stop mattering? Like existential philosophy, numbers run aground on themselves at the extremes. In the setting of infinity all possibilities, no matter how remote, have already occurred an infinite number of times. In other words, moments exactly like this one have already happened an infinite number of times. I have been born, lived and died with the same sequence of events an infinite number of times. Just like the "more likely" possibilities like heads vs tails. Is one infinity bigger than another?

Yeah!
I;m pretty well convinced thats a "deja vu" is
A interdimensional brainfart, to a parallel universe

[sac beh]

Jack, great thread. I've always wanted to sit down with someone like you and hash out a few ideas. I hope what I'm about to say isn't construed as off-topic.

The topic of your thread and the question you're posing for discussion is: The Answer is in the Math, and, as question, Is the Answer in the Math? The statement, as statement, is a predication to something X of something Y. Math (X) has the property of providing or containing within itself the Answer (Y). The question form, then, is asking for a judgment of the correctness of your statement: is it true that the answer is in the math? Any judgment as to the truth of a statement must first understand the things which are at stake, in this case something called Math and another thing called answer.

What is math? We have our mathematics from the Greek ta mathemata, that which can be taught and learned, the doctrine which is taught. The Greeks understood mathemata broadly--the modern separation of science, for which mathematics is the proper language, from other fields of understanding had not yet occurred, but was predicted--as the determination of things as they originate, present themselves, and as we experience them practically. The modern sciences have taken math as numbers to be their proper language because they have properly recognized that numbers are that which makes things most learned and knowable to us. A mathematical question expects and deserves an answer. If there is no answer, or if question or answer cannot be represented by knowable predicates--e.g., numbers--then we are not dealing with the properly mathematical. What was hinted at by the ancient Greeks is now clearly recognized by everyone, that math is the fundamental way of talking about things such that they are learned, presented, and pulled from obscurity. The Greeks connected math with truth because truth (alethea in Greek) means unconcealment, making present to us some thing that is given, bringing something out of darkness and closer to us in knowledge.

Another way of saying the same thing is this: math is a logos that turns something into alethea, it is an accounting for things in terms of their truthfulness and correct correspondence to that which is most properly theirs: their presence to us. That which can be known--rather than speculated, opined, or guessed--about some thing math makes known.

What is the answer? As we just said, math is, as math, that which provides the answers, that which allows the thing to be grasped in mind. But I assume here that you don't intend answer to mean response. You aren't just asking if math has some answer, any old answer, if math says something, but you're asking if math has THE answer, which is in english a way of saying truth. You want to know if math has truth, if it has the correct answer to the question. Thus with our understanding of what math is, we must conclude that your statement is correct! The Answer is in the Math. Math is that symbolism by way of which the answer is given. Math, by its very nature, speaks truth, it answers the question of correct correspondence of Y to X. This is its job. Math is the symbolic language of logic which answers true or false. It correctly explains something in terms of something else. This is what you mean. Math IS the logos and grounding of things.

We, then, correctly judge your statement as true. We know what math and answer are, and we have judged their correlation you propose as correct. What is left for questioning, then? What about what we are doing here in asking the question and making judgments based on the evidence, namely the history of math and, even more, allowing math's own inner workings to show the answer. What is this judgment of the truth of statements? What does it seek?

Judging is a human activity. Judging is always a judging about something. In judgment we make a statement about something, e.g., your statement is correct. Judging seeks to ground something. We judge in order to give grounds (explanation, accounting, logos) to some thing that is presented before us in a manner which begs a question to be asked. In our judging we determine something as something, and here what we have determined is that your statement is true. Your statement has be given ground with a mathematical explanation which judges truth.

This, by the way, is why some talk about the end of philosophy. They mean its conclusion, its proper fulfillment. Philosophy as we know it academically, and in the West, has always been (especially since Plato and Aristotle most clearly defined it) this endeavor of understanding to know things in all their knowability, to mathematize about them. This mathematizing is strictly what philosophy has always done but wasn't clearly systematized and explicated until now: judging the truth of things. And this is also another implied meaning in your post. The Answer is in the Math: math is the fulfillment of that thinking which seeks to know things in their truth.

The question that begs to be asked now is whether its possible to speak of math in any way other than mathematically, or philosophically. We have determined math to be the answer and your statement to be true by dealing with it on its own terms. We are speaking strictly mathematically about math because only as such can it be known to us and a judgment of truth be given. In seeking the alethea (truth) of math we have understood it as ta mathemata (that which is knowable). So doesn't it seem that a further grounds is needed, that another question begs to be asked? What, if anything comes before math? Why is math possible? Is math self-grounded in that it requires no further expalanation than that it is? Why do we think mathematically, that is why do we always seek the veritas by ratio of things?

Take the example of this fraction: 10/20. I have 20 lights on my Christmas tree, but only 10 of them are lit. 10/20 is a (mathematical) statement about the lights on my tree, and as such it provides an accounting or explanation. I know something about the lights on my tree! But we aren't happy with this fraction 10/20. It seems petty, like it betrays some deeper truth. We feel the need to account for it also. We feel its just floating there and not properly knowable. What more can we say about this fraction, what further grounding can we do? We inevitably want to reduce the fraction. So we say 10/20 = 5/10. We not only know something more about the original thing (the tree) but we have further accounted for the 10/20--it equal 5/10! And so it goes with all things. As mathematicians we transform things into their fundamental grounds--true statements of predication.

As humans we always seek the ground of things, we seek their truth as knowable. We aren't happy until we feel we've reached the ground of grounds. Thus my original question of what still needs to be grounded in our discussion of philosophy, math and truth. As mathematicians we want to know the truth of things, but is there something (or no thing) for which we cannot properly seek grounds as mathematicians? This is the question that fascinates me. How to non-self-referentially ground math and logic. How to ground math if math is this very seeking of grounds! But that's a large discussion so I'll shut up already and maybe continue later, as long as I haven't completely bored you to death first.

sacbeh

[WeedIsGod]

Could Zero, One and possibly even Infinity be grounds to Math? These concepts are the building blocks of Math (right?), yet I feel one could also argue of Philosophy.

Edit: This thread kicks ass. Just read the entire thread and watched the movie on Coral Castle.

[JackTheGrower]

No real limits on this thread.. I apologize if anyone thinks this is anything less than just good old fun. Smoke a doobie and have fun.

My area of interest is the dynamic equation of the kind of [A(x) +/- Y , X/Z] form where some number is the starting point and each result is fed back in until there is a "Ring"(note1) of values the system cycles in.

Where as in the [3X+1, X/2] form all numbers cycle to a cycle of 4,2,1,4,2,1 The workings of it are simple if even divide by 2 if odd multiply by three and add one.. Repeat until it cycles to 1. That is the easy part the hard part is to prove how it does it. For any number it cycles to one. That one has stumped people for many years. I have spent years in the pursuit of it's truth and will till I die I am sure.

That's my little look at the mystery of math for me.

What I was thinking when I started this thread was 1. Any friends out there share my beliefs and 2. Like saying there is a God I place my faith in the concept of information as an eternal force we fail to appreciate most of the time IMO..

One cannot destroy a mathematical truth no more than they can destroy the number 5.
So if spiritually we are looking for truth; Something that exists that is real but not real all at the same time it is, in general terms, math.

Sprinkle some brilliant posts by others and this is an interesting thread i am very happy to be a part of.

So shall we kick around a concept of value? What is 5? I mean we say 5 and we know it's 5 of something but we don't need five of anything to perceive 5 as a unit of information. So there it is, in my mind, something akin to the Trinity in Christianity. That 5 is, a number we can symbolise with symbol. that five is a group of things that needs no visual symbol, that 5 is a "holy spirit" with no real form because we perceive in our minds, all at the same time.







note1: The term Ring is defined and the use of that term in this text is a local meaning to describe the set of values the system cycles in and not the proper term Ring I have read about.

[JackTheGrower]

Could Zero, One and possibly even Infinity be grounds to Math? These concepts are the building blocks of Math (right?), yet I feel one could also argue of Philosophy.

Edit: This thread kicks ass. Just read the entire thread and watched the movie on Coral Castle.

I conjecture that the 1,2,3's are as twisted as we can imagine in the possible higher math we cannot understand yet. If that makes sense. In the playing around I have done on the computer with C language and the Big num library GMP ( plug ) I have seen the zero of the system and the negative side as well as the positive side and let me say it's not as simple as 0,1,2,3.. But yet it still is a system just like 1,2,3.

Well I also smoke my own organic bud so.. LOL

[JackTheGrower]

I have a Question about a system in my studies and maybe some creative thinking might help me think it out, So, use your imagination if you like.


In the system 5/5 the top part of the "fraction" is what we do to a value if it can't be evenly divided by the bottom.

I imagine a system where I add a value such as one or two each time like this: start X = 1 .. 5x+1 so 1 isn't dividable by 5 so 5 * 1 + 1 = 6 and again now that x is 6 it's not dividable by 5 and so it goes 1,6,31,156.... as well and so on but 5x+5 gives a reasonable sequence of x = 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6...

What do you make of the idea? Can you see another system? Can you find one that is grows and decays?
I am looking for the answer in the math.

[JackTheGrower]

Ah.. I found a new system and it is clever.. How about you?

[JackTheGrower]

So Wikipedia has a define for Dark Matter.. Okay..
Lets try this one out as a think.. I theorize with simple data encoding. I often write my own code from scratch in the C language.

Okay, That's no big deal I grew up with the Rage of Basic and then Pascal then C but got old at C++ and now there is alos multi-cpu programming languages. But, I digress.

Anyway..

Dark Matter can be said to be a representation of some force we cannot measure.
So I just realized a truth about a type of encoder I work with and I have a system where I can encode any given data in a uniform way and I chase the mythical infinite data compression tail and catch it. Indeed the data I make is smaller than it's source in way that is true in all cases.

So here is the look at the Dark Force of a symbol that has no place in a two state system but exists nontheless. I have a three state codex in a two state codex system.

Are there these external forces acting on us and us with them that have effects on but cannot be seen in for all of us?


Love the blends myself...

[sac beh]

What I was thinking when I started this thread was 1. Any friends out there share my beliefs and 2. Like saying there is a God I place my faith in the concept of information as an eternal force we fail to appreciate most of the time IMO..

The big looming question is this: Does math exist, in any
meaningful interpretation of the word, outside of the human mind? Or does math only exist where the human mind is applied? Analogies could be made with certain principles of quantum physics and their disturbance of traditional newtonian physics. I won't get side-tracked with details of quantum physics, you probably know what I'm talking about. But I wonder, Jack, if what you're saying isn't just a restatement of the basic presupposition of all of classical science (which was always intimately tied to mathematics), that the forms that we find describe correctly and universally the world around us must be objective forms, i.e., they are properties of the things themselves outside of human subjectivity, they exist in some meaningful way and the human mind only discovers or cognizes them.

One cannot destroy a mathematical truth no more than they can destroy the number 5.
So if spiritually we are looking for truth; Something that exists that is real but not real all at the same time it is, in general terms, math.

So shall we kick around a concept of value? What is 5? I mean we say 5 and we know it's 5 of something but we don't need five of anything to perceive 5 as a unit of information. So there it is, in my mind, something akin to the Trinity in Christianity. That 5 is, a number we can symbolise with symbol. that five is a group of things that needs no visual symbol, that 5 is a "holy spirit" with no real form because we perceive in our minds, all at the same time.


This is a truism. If we think of math as a language, it organizes symbols according to a grammar in order to form statements that convey meaning, right? It doesn't make sense to destroy 5 any more than it does to destroy adjective. Both of these systems are internally consistent and it would be impossible to destroy a symbol that exists in a system which declares that symbol necessary.

One of the most important questions in linguistics is very interesting when applied to math. The question is whether the grammar exists by itself as an abstraction in the human mind, or if the only thing that exists are specifics of which the human mind only remembers occurrences. When I form a sentence do I have a sentence creation algorithm in mind that my ideas pass through, are validated against a grammar, and come out as properly formed sentences with meaning? Or Am I repeating variations of past occurrences of symbols that I've collected? Then the further question, like the question I posed above about math existing, is: what exists before the meaningful statement is created? If I say, "I love weed.", you understand me and I've said something meaningful. But what existed before the formation of that sentence that was the inspiration for the sentence's creation? Some people call this the idea, or the feeling. But whatever you want to call that initial inspiration that welled up inside of me and led to me forming the sentence "I love weed.", do you think that the sentence exhausts the essence, characteristics and possibilities within the idea? Is the complete meaning of the idea completely present in the sentence, or does the sentence only represent a certain meaning of the idea?

I think these same questions are interesting when applied to math: 1) Does it exist outside of the human mind and 2) is it possible that the thing that math describes contains more meaning than math is able to express, in which case math would have to be considered an incomplete symbolic system, much like a language.

[Euphrates]

Have yet to read through this thread; but,

In Hebrew, the numerical value of 0ne+Love= God.

There’s allot of other really neat examples of things adding up in the Hebrew language. Personally, I don't believe the Hebrew language was made by man.

[sac beh]

So Wikipedia has a define for Dark Matter.. Okay..
Lets try this one out as a think.. I theorize with simple data encoding. I often write my own code from scratch in the C language.

Okay, That's no big deal I grew up with the Rage of Basic and then Pascal then C but got old at C++ and now there is alos multi-cpu programming languages. But, I digress.

Anyway..

Dark Matter can be said to be a representation of some force we cannot measure.
So I just realized a truth about a type of encoder I work with and I have a system where I can encode any given data in a uniform way and I chase the mythical infinite data compression tail and catch it. Indeed the data I make is smaller than it's source in way that is true in all cases.

So here is the look at the Dark Force of a symbol that has no place in a two state system but exists nontheless. I have a three state codex in a two state codex system.

Are there these external forces acting on us and us with them that have effects on but cannot be seen in for all of us?


Love the blends myself...

I really like where you're going with this post, if I understand you. Drawing an analogy between Dark Matter and what happens in data compression is very interesting. A fundamental mystery in data compression is made clear if you think about it in terms of linguistics also. Its easy to encode data so that the result is smaller (fewer bits, less space in terms of memory storage). But is anything lost? Or put another way, what's hiding in the smaller form (the compresed result) that allows the full meaning of the original to still exist?

This is really a type of linguistic abstraction. Taking only the pieces from the original that are relevant to the particular situation or question at stake. We admit that we lose bits through compression. But we don't care about the exact bits, we care that the meaning (or result in computational math) is preserved even though the number and order of bits is fewer. In this way, data compression is sort of an act of interpretation of data in which we abstract. This is why we can create very different results with say base91 vs. base64 but still declare that the original is preserved! The encoding is an interpretation.

I'd like to think more about the Dark Matter analogy, cause that's really blowing my mind at the moment and I think there are lots of possibilities... :joint:

[sac beh]

I love weed.
SSBsb3ZlIHdlZWQuCg==
eJzzVMjJL0tVKE9NTdHjAgAeUwQd
H4sICAKsLUsAA3dlZWQA81TIyS9LVS hPTU3R4wIAnDFxbA0AAAA=

Do they all mean the same thing?

[JackTheGrower]

By asking if there is "math" I'd be daft to try and expound on the origins of information. Since I must be a construct of substance and information I can't explain myself since what I am now isn't what I will be tomorrow.
The only constant seems to be change.
Sorry to duck low but you threw a fast pitch.

How does one observe a system they themselves are a part of?
How does one define what information is in general? Is there like a universe of this Information that collided with the universe substance and this is the mess it made?

So I have to default to the concept of a process to obtain a result such as putting 2 and 2 together as a set and calling it four or One + Love and calling it God I guess.
Without the observer is it real.. That's a slippery one.

Why not? Dark Matter, Dark Energy, Dark Information? LOL

[JackTheGrower]

I really like where you're going with this post, if I understand you. Drawing an analogy between Dark Matter and what happens in data compression is very interesting. A fundamental mystery in data compression is made clear if you think about it in terms of linguistics also. Its easy to encode data so that the result is smaller (fewer bits, less space in terms of memory storage). But is anything lost? Or put another way, what's hiding in the smaller form (the compresed result) that allows the full meaning of the original to still exist?

This is really a type of linguistic abstraction. Taking only the pieces from the original that are relevant to the particular situation or question at stake. We admit that we lose bits through compression. But we don't care about the exact bits, we care that the meaning (or result in computational math) is preserved even though the number and order of bits is fewer. In this way, data compression is sort of an act of interpretation of data in which we abstract. This is why we can create very different results with say base91 vs. base64 but still declare that the original is preserved! The encoding is an interpretation.

I'd like to think more about the Dark Matter analogy, cause that's really blowing my mind at the moment and I think there are lots of possibilities... :joint:

Yes it has to do directly with the limits of information. In this case by information we are looking for ways to represent a pattern or "Information" and trying to map it to some code that is smaller, just to explain a bit for people reading.

Well I do chase the "mythical infinite data compression" Tail around from time to time.

This time I see that the code is smaller for all data. So tail bit.. BUT there has to be an external reference to understand that code. So no compression but it is a one to one encoding.
So why can't I go beyond that boundary? Why does it have to have that "Dark Information" The external reference? <--- The observer???

It's one way to look at it is all..

The other argument is it's not a two state system if it requires three symbols. I don't see it that way because I only do one thing or another thus two states.


The encoding is an interpretation.


Yes for me that is true expressing object in pattern is true.. Maybe this is the nature of existence? Object being the energy and the pattern being the information?
So energy expressed in pattern is existence?

Interesting stuff I usually ponder as I toke a bit..

Sometimes to fall a sleep I review encoding in my mind..

[JackTheGrower]

Have yet to read through this thread; but,

In Hebrew, the numerical value of 0ne+Love= God.

There’s allot of other really neat examples of things adding up in the Hebrew language. Personally, I don't believe the Hebrew language was made by man.

Hey share away!

I hope this thread is enjoyable..

[JackTheGrower]

I love weed.
SSBsb3ZlIHdlZWQuCg==
eJzzVMjJL0tVKE9NTdHjAgAeUwQd
H4sICAKsLUsAA3dlZWQA81TIyS9LVS hPTU3R4wIAnDFxbA0AAAA=

Do they all mean the same thing?

They do if you say they are.. Ha! You just created information.. Are you a god?

And still it takes the Observer

[sac beh]

They do if you say they are.. Ha! You just created information.. Are you a god?

And still it takes the Observer

Did I create it or just interpret/encode it?

The Observer... imagine a human not trained in data encoding. He would certainly say that "I love weed." is meaningful and that "SSBsb3ZlIHdlZWQuCg==" is not. And if this human did not understand english, he would further say that none of it was meaningful--and this would be true... for him.

Now imagine an english-speaking human trained in data encoding. He would say, "I love weed." is a meaningful expression according to english grammar. "SSBsb3ZlIHdlZWQuCg==" is the base64 encoding of the same. "eJzzVMjJL0tVKE9NTdHjAgAeUwQd" is a gzip-compressed-base64 encoding of the same, and "H4sICAKsLUsAA3dlZWQA81TIyS9LVS hPTU3R4wIAnDFxbA0AAAA=" is deflate-compressed-base64 encoding of the same.

Now that I've explained it, anyone reading this who didn't understand the encodings before could now say that they understand and that all the above forms have meaning--because they have learned the encodings.

Jack, as you know data compression has limits. With my example, the original is so small that compression can't make the result smaller--in fact its larger. So what you say about an encoding that produces a smaller result in ALL cases blows my mind. It would be a system in which near 100% of the information would be hidden, or accounted for in "Dark Matter" or perhaps in the mind of the Observer. The only thing I can think of is the linguistics example. Before I created the encoding "I love weed." it existed in my mind as an idea or feeling or something. This original something had no mathematical properties (no size, grammar, etc.). Thus the original was nothing yet something. A perfect information encoding that exists within me, that only becomes degraded and longer once I express it in language or math?

[JackTheGrower]

Indeed: Just to explain more for everyone. This "Math" is the process of relating binary data to a smaller set of binary data.
So if one could "compress" or make smaller the code for "I love weed" Which in the number codes for the letters of the keyboard is "I space l o v e space w e e d" Each letter or symbol shall we say is assigned a value of 0 through 255 making 256 symbols possible for 8 bits of data each. So that is 88 bits long.

So data can have relationships to other "Counts" or Structure such as what if the term God was seen 5000 times in the text?
We could replace the whole word God with maybe just the G and when we process that into a "Compressed file" the size of the file will be 10,000 characters less and at 8 bits to a byte that is 80,000 bits or about 78 kilobytes smaller than whatever the source was.

Many brilliant and some clever people have explored this area of science and what has been found is at some point the "Information", such as we did by shorting the code or pattern for God to just G, seems to have no more "extra information" we can take advantage of.
That data is called too dense to compress.

So yeah.. I am looking at trying to find a way to compress dense data. I feel like Edison and his crew trying all sorts of materials to make the filament of the first light bulb.


Most encoders have properties of encoding some data smaller and expanding other data. To find one that takes all data and compresses it is the mythical infinite data compressor. I seek such a Holy Grail.

I try all kinds of stuff looking for a way. It's become rather humorous at times like this next one was.
I'd managed to compress the number 1234567 by two bits but the new object was a number like 340600. Can I take this new object and apply the same process? That's what a mythical compressor would do. So I tried it on the smaller data and the encoding of that value expanded by 5 bits.

In that system the value 1234567 had excess information, we can represent in fewer bits, but 340600 has surplus information that require more bits than the original.
That is how it goes for most encoders.
Now a "one to one" encoder is a codex ( enCOde ~ DEcode X <-- x is the object )that the original data is encoded into the same bit space as the original data but is not the original data.
That I can do in a couple three systems. But to encode all data even just one bit smaller per pass is always just one "Hitch" away no mater what I try.

<Big Sigh> So, with the encoder I originally have been referencing, there is the wall again. The spector of the external reference and I have seen this in several systems. This wasn't my first one to one codex so I knew what I was looking at when I saw it this last time.


So back to the thread.. There are boundaries we cannot go beyond, yet anyway, and they apply to information much like the number 5 is.

Why can I imagine something else, if this is the truth, unless mind is independent of some of the rules other things have to obey? Is mind made of "Information" Is information a Dark Force?

Is this Dark Force, Information, the Mythical "Tree of Knowledge?" Is that why a serpent would hang all over it? The Mythical infinite data compressor serpent?

[azad]

God made math complicated lol..all men are created equal..all derivatives are not created equal haha...merry xmas guys

[JackTheGrower]

God made math complicated lol..all men are created equal..all derivatives are not created equal haha...merry xmas guys

is it a derivative or a distortion LOL Merry Christmas to you Too!

[JackTheGrower]

Did I create it or just interpret/encode it?

The Observer... imagine a human not trained in data encoding. He would certainly say that "I love weed." is meaningful and that "SSBsb3ZlIHdlZWQuCg==" is not. And if this human did not understand english, he would further say that none of it was meaningful--and this would be true... for him.

Now imagine an english-speaking human trained in data encoding. He would say, "I love weed." is a meaningful expression according to english grammar. "SSBsb3ZlIHdlZWQuCg==" is the base64 encoding of the same. "eJzzVMjJL0tVKE9NTdHjAgAeUwQd" is a gzip-compressed-base64 encoding of the same, and "H4sICAKsLUsAA3dlZWQA81TIyS9LVS hPTU3R4wIAnDFxbA0AAAA=" is deflate-compressed-base64 encoding of the same.

Now that I've explained it, anyone reading this who didn't understand the encodings before could now say that they understand and that all the above forms have meaning--because they have learned the encodings.

Jack, as you know data compression has limits. With my example, the original is so small that compression can't make the result smaller--in fact its larger. So what you say about an encoding that produces a smaller result in ALL cases blows my mind. It would be a system in which near 100% of the information would be hidden, or accounted for in "Dark Matter" or perhaps in the mind of the Observer. The only thing I can think of is the linguistics example. Before I created the encoding "I love weed." it existed in my mind as an idea or feeling or something. This original something had no mathematical properties (no size, grammar, etc.). Thus the original was nothing yet something. A perfect information encoding that exists within me, that only becomes degraded and longer once I express it in language or math?



I wanted to post that I do have one to one encoders I have discovered.

So it is possible to translate data such as "I love weed" into other data of the same size.
It's that dark information. That external reference to an observer of the state of the system needed to decode that is truly annoying at times.

Or the If I could just skim one bit somehow it would work!
Ahh.. It's interesting but, I can never get any friends to hang out when I talk about how I love it so..

[wantaknow]

how did they know of rattlers ?well thats a interesting question ,did you know that an egyptian tumb was found in the grand canyon ?and was closed up ,after all the contents were removed ,it a little know subject ,well kept ,and guarded ,numbers are like god theu start at zero and depart to the left and rightas positive and negitive,having no beguining nor no end ,just like JEHOVA,

[JackTheGrower]

how did they know of rattlers ?well thats a interesting question ,did you know that an egyptian tumb was found in the grand canyon ?and was closed up ,after all the contents were removed ,it a little know subject ,well kept ,and guarded ,numbers are like god theu start at zero and depart to the left and rightas positive and negitive,having no beguining nor no end ,just like JEHOVA,

Do tell!

Oh I can dig the mystical. Real hard core fun there as far as i am concerned.

My studies have suggested a <- (-1) (-0) (+0 ) (+1) ->.

That was twisted.. My mind is open..

[JackTheGrower]

well All is good for 2010 so far..

I found a way to manipulate data with no statistical; advantage to "Compress" and i will have to work on this because it's a big idea.

How goes your Search for the Answer?

[THC_Decapitator]

420 69 007
these are my numbers

[JackTheGrower]

420 69 007
these are my numbers

Well that's a great topic.. Symbolism as Value..

I look for that in my searches into data-compression.

42069007 is your combined number:
That in Binary: 10100000011110110000001111

It's the same but we recognize one over the other.

So how do we teach a machine to understand? How is it we do?

I was wondering what is my number.. My real number.. A Lady friend who worked at a mortuary told me I don't know what Number it is but I have one.. Toe Tag number that is..

[JackTheGrower]

Hey guys.. How goes it?


I've been busy with computer programming projects and I am excited over them. With my disability it's been really rough to handle the roller-coaster effect of being excited on the discover of a Bijective encoding system! Yeah!

Anyway I was watching the Movie "What the Bleep do we know" and I though that we must be Quantum Computers! We seem to utilize quantum effects in how our brain works.

If So would the "After Life" be anything more than the Plank Scale? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planck_scale)

Love to chat about the Spirituality of our Life energy and it looks to be connected to the Quantum realm; Like it might be separate.. LOL

What do you think?

[JackTheGrower]

That Quantum computer idea seems logical..


So what have you all been up to?

I had some luck with discovering a bijective coding system through my coding hobby.. I've been trying to get that to work in a data compression way but I think the answer is no.
I have some work ahead to get a clear answer of if and why.

You see the Universe will not let us throw information away and magically get it back. It doesn't work like that in the Universe of existence.
Stephen Hawkins once suggested that information was lost in black holes but he recanted that later.
I wouldn't know how to present an argument on information and the Universe but for the hobbist who tinkers with that "Magic" Data compression the reality of information is always present.

So that's what I have been doing and doing a lot of..

What are you up to?

Oh hey someone suggested talking about AI or androids as we call them.. Does that interest anyone here?



Ernst

[JackTheGrower]

I believe I have mentioned that I have an interest in codes and coding. The Computer is like the Magic Mirror of my mind for me.

So I am working on learning Data compression and I am writing the information down as an aid in learning this math.

It's a kind of math because one tries to apply mathematical functions to information that results in new pattern where the sum of all it's parts is a smaller pattern than the original pattern.

Well where I am going with this is that to achieve an imagined goal of infinite compression it would take some system that can intuit the correct path of decoding form a constructed encoding.

So here is my dilemma: Do you think there can be Anti-Time in the universe?

Turring suggests that the "Tape" can back up and that would be a quantum type event in our understanding of quantum-physics.
Anyway posting the question here is possibly the best place to get an imagined result from your computer.

AKA some ideas and wild guesses are fair answers here and I dig that.

So what do you think of anti-time.. It would be called time-reversal or T-symmetry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-symmetry)

Again I just love the random input.. "Don't think twice it's allright."