Creation vs Evolution

[Teucer]

I just think this is much better homed here. Would you all agree?

[Fu-Ion]

Hi.

How about Creation through evolution? ..which, to me, seems to be the case.

..i have sort of deistic/theistic out look on God ..He/She provides a medium for life (the universe), in which we have free will to experience (meaning; God doesn't control the schemes of man, good or evil. (We create our problems, so we have the power to solve them.)

..So to me, God doesn't punish, nor reward, and is communicating with us "only" through the Creation, not in language(word) ..It's humans who created all the "laws" and both, dictated (from spirit realms as a "messenger") & wrote down the "word", meaning spiritual texts and laws.




Peace.

[ureapwhatusow]

only differentiate when the element of time is added to the equation

[ureapwhatusow]

I just think this is much better homed here. Would you all agree?

the biggest variable of this argument IMO is our need to know

why are we designed to seek meaning?

why do we need to know how, or to know why?

i often tell my children things they do things like not run in the street because they don't comprehend the consequence

religion is the collective social wisdom passed down from those who have seen life full circle and felt it so necessary for us to understand these things before we had to learn them the hard way ourselves

we all seek to know, every race creed and culture worships something around them

we know but never completely, and the only reason our knowledge of the world around us continues to grow exponentially is because the knowledge of our forefather is given to us to start with

were would science be if no one went to school, if there was nothing to learn?

most religions tell you the concept they are teaching, and the greater powers of that religion, are beyond any ONE persons understanding.

you will realize that all of this religion and our seeking a higher power are the evolution of man kind as an individual into a social entity

we are going to be like ants that do not survive as individuals but as a hive

like mother fucking Voltron

AND WE ARE DESIGNED THIS WAY

just like ants and we are evolving to be that way so when we find the catalyst that drives that instinct we will find god

i found that search far more fruitless than just realizing that truth is discovered when one lives according to a given mantra and sees for ones self if the promise holds true

[pray4pistils]

How about Creation through evolution? ..which, to me, seems to be the case.

:yeahthats

This is my stance almost exactly. I'm an agnostic (meaning that I question the existance and nature of God). Or, in other words, I'm neither a believer or an atheist. I do lean towards the existance of a higher power but certainly not one that looks or thinks like humans or one that is involved with the minutiae of our daily lives.

Frankly, I see no conflict between creationism and the theory of evolution. Let's liken it to a cosmic level of bowling where a higher power creates the alley and the laws of physics. God throws the ball and then natural forces affect the trajectory and the results that we mere humans observe. This is roughly analogous to God creating all that is and then letting nature do its thing for us to see and theorize about.

I don't believe in true good or evil. It's always relative to the person experiencing it. For instance, let's say a tornado comes to the USA and destroys a town. The bible beaters may say that it was Satan's work or God's punishment for non-believer's sins. (I definitely don't believe in an anthropomorphic "devil", btw.) However, the Native Americans may believe that it was the Great Spirit's righteous vengeance enacted against their oppressor -the very holy rollers that stole/kept their land in the first place.

So... can such a situation really demonstrate good or evil? To answer this definitively is to miss the point entirely, I say. Notions of good and evil are merely expressions of the convenience or pain that people feel when they experience it. Likewise, when one looks at the world this objectively there is no longer any theological conflict between creation or evolution. They're just two separate but interrelated phenomenae. :2cents:

Thoughts?

[ddrew]

like mother fucking Voltron



Voltron, lol, sweet.


Evolution

[Anti]

Neither creationism nor so called "darwinism" are the truth.

Allow me the indulgence of being bold about it:

Anyone who wholeheartedly believes in the theory of Darwin as if it is 100% unvarnished ultimate reality is as foolish as someone who wholeheartedly accepts the theory of creationism.

There is a lot that the modern theory of evolution (as based on, but not beholden to Darwin) that makes a good bit of sense. It does a lot toward explaining how things happened here. Much like CSI. It looks at the evidence to determine - as well as possible with current evidence - exactly what happened, in what order, approximately how long ago. (But sometimes CSI gets the wrong guy. Evidence wasn't truth.)

It's good for giving us a jumping off point in our own pursuit of that ever-elusive 'truth'.

Creationism gives us no room to pursue anything, really, since it claims a simple answer. GOD DID IT! If so, all that's left to understand is why god did it, and why does it look like god did such a rotten job? 99.9% of the universe is deadly to humanity (indeed, to all life as we know it,) yet he created this universe just for us.

That being said, it is entirely within the realm of possibility - IMHO a very likely possibility - that we will continue to make discoveries that make our current beliefs about the universe look as laughable as the idea that putting leeches on your skin to remove the tainted blood and make you well is to us. (It is, however, possible that we will one day stumble across inconclusive evidence that something deserving of the title "GOD" may eventually be proven.)

If you put a gun to my head and demanded that I come down in favor of evolution or creationism, I'd choose evolution (unless you were a fundamentalist, in which case my answer would be, "Praise the Lord, Brother!").

In that choosing (and this must be very clear to you, or further discussion on this point will go round and round in circles as the atheism thread did for a while) I am only choosing the one that based on current evidence best explains said evidence.

As more evidence is unearthed, as scientific method moves forward, I hope to remain open-minded to new possibilities that may directly contradict what we believe-to-be-true. Even my own deeply cherished assumptions about the nature of reality.

Notice I say cherished, and not held. I strive not to hold ANY belief at all, but attempt to dwell in a comfortably chaotic, spontaneously creative state of mind.

I do slip from time to time. I'm not Buddha. (Or Jesus.) (Unless you ask Vishnu, and then he'll tell you that ALL is Brahman. I AM.)

[Teucer]

lol! No ddrew, I haven't been eaten by a young earth Dinosaur. I just have other things going on in my life. Amazing huh.

Anyhow, you asked about the Ark. Just exactly what questions do you have? How all the animals could fit in the ark? How they could be fed and cared for the whole time (A tad over a year)? How they all came to the ark? Whether there were Dinosaurs on the Ark? How it didn't sink? It's design?

There's enormous scope here mate. Pick your top two questions and I'll answer them for you.

Unless you want to topic change at all? I don't mind, I'm comfortable debating almost anything...

Have a great day =)

[Anti]

Teucer,

#1a. Do you believe that God created the world in seven days?
#1b. If so, can you define the length of a day for a being that wasn't raised on this planet?

#2. Can you posit what meaning time might have to a being that was beyond time?

#3a. Why would God require any "time" at all in order to create and shape the earth?
#3b. Couldn't he simply will it into being, fully realized?

#4. Why would he need to rest on the last day? Was his omnipotence taxed by creation?

#5a. Does god have a body?
#5b. If so, where does that body exist?

#6a. How can god be a "he"?
#6b. Does god have genitals?
#6c. That implies that there is a female of his species around somewhere, doesn't it?

I humbly and open-mindedly await the thrilling answer from your fingertips.

[levant]

Darwin talked a whole heap of shit!

[ddrew]

lol! No ddrew, I haven't been eaten by a young earth Dinosaur. I just have other things going on in my life. Amazing huh.

Anyhow, you asked about the Ark. Just exactly what questions do you have? How all the animals could fit in the ark? How they could be fed and cared for the whole time (A tad over a year)? How they all came to the ark? Whether there were Dinosaurs on the Ark? How it didn't sink? It's design?

There's enormous scope here mate. Pick your top two questions and I'll answer them for you.

Unless you want to topic change at all? I don't mind, I'm comfortable debating almost anything...

Have a great day =)

Ok, here's my cut and pasted response complete with many impossible points for you to explain, why don't you pick the 2 you find least challenging and address them.
Also Anti's ?'s too

The Ark
This boat would have had to have been bigger than a super-tanker!
There are MILLIONS of species on the land. There are over three hundred and fifty thousand species of beetle alone. The sheer number of insects would fill several arks, before you even consider the larger creatures. The ark would have to be the single largest ship ever in the history of the world. Modern technology could not possibly create a ship large and stable enough to act as Noah's Ark (someone on alt.atheism suggested that Noah would have needed a space-suit to walk on the deck!).
Many species of land animal require highly specialised habitat and food to survive. Koalas, for instance, eat one kilogram of fresh Eucalyptus- tree leaves per day, which provide all their water and nutrition (some people have suggested Noah had a year's supply of dried Euc. leaves. But Koalas need the leaves for their water. What did Noah do? Rehydrate them? With what, a desalination plant? Hold them out in the rain every morning?) Also, no matter what time of year it was, many creatures would be hibernating (it's always winter somewhere on the globe). Many creatures are only found on one continent, indeed some are limited to a small island/forest/mountain. It's a neat trick to be able to walk thousands of miles to the Middle East if you're hibernating on a remote island near Alaska.

How could the ark cope with all the specialised requirements of food/environment for millions of creatures? The 320 different species of humming-bird, for example, have very high metabolic rates and have to consume large amounts of nectar throughout the day. The Ark would have had to cater for 640 humming-birds, requiring an almost constant supply of fresh nectar. From flowers. Which wouldn't grow in great abundance in a dark, damp boat.

How could the ark cope with disposing of the waste products of those creatures? It must have had an incredibly advanced plumbing and ventilation system, superior to anything to be found on modern ocean liners or large military vessels (eg. aircraft carriers). One problem that dairy farmers have is that vast quantities of fresh dung produce highly toxic gases (falling into the slurry pit can be fatal because of this), and it would have been many times worse on an Ark. Next time you are at a zoo, ask one of the keepers how easy it is to deal with the needs of the few hundred animals they have for a month, and then imagine scaling that up to a gigantic floating zoo with millions of creatures being looked after by one old man and his family.

Where did Noah find the pitch to waterproof the Ark with? Flood theorists say that all the world's oil / petroleum deposits were formed during the Flood. How could Noah find and use pitch to waterproof the Ark before the Flood, when the pitch was formed during the Flood? Did he have SCUBA gear as well, and kept diving down to gather fresh pitch from the ocean floor and apply it to the Ark while it was floating around? Pitch is a petroleum deposit, which takes more than a couple of thousand years to form. (Some people argue that "wood-pitch" was used instead, although the commonly held belief is that it was petroleum-pitch).

Using modern equipment, it can take a good shipyard years to build a large ship, using hundreds of men. Noah (five hundred years old at the time) apparently had himself, a few helpers and a lot of gopher-wood trees. We are expected to believe that he built the Ark, using crude hand-tools, over a period of many years in a world filled with evil, scheming criminals. ("The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.")

Here are a few of the things he would have had to deal with

Wood rotting. Left out in the open, the partly-built Ark would be exposed to the elements, such as rain, wind, lightning (a large structure is likely to get struck quite often, and wood burns), fungus, termites and ravenous beavers (well, maybe not beavers). Maybe he first built a huge hangar in which he could construct it safely? That would have almost as great an enterprise as the Ark itself! Unfortunately, the Bible does not enlighten us as to the whereabouts of Noah's Shed. I guess it was washed away in the Flood...
Theft and vandalism. The hordes of fiendish deviants living around Noah at the time would no doubt have had enjoyed enormous sinful fun by sabotaging the Ark, stealing the wood for themselves (why cut and prepare your own wood when Noah's done the job for you?) and harassing the few workers.

Also, you skipped right over where I showed that the T rex soft tissue you claimed as evidence of recent dinosaurs is really from the bones of 70 million year old remains, 100's of scientific articles and journals supporting it.
So please touch on that as well.

__________________
I'm Star stuff

[ddrew]

And while your chewing on that, I have been gearing up in your absence, so I will bring the next arguement into the impossibility of Noah, the flood itself.

The Flood

The bible states that all mountains were covered, until they were about twenty feet below water. This also rules out the idea that it was somehow a local flood, confined to the Middle East (the most bizarre explanation I have heard along these lines is that Mars came close to the Earth, and it's gravitational pull raised up a dome of water in the region. The problems with this are too many to even think about.)

(And a point Anti has brought up already, but I think is worth repeating)
Some people might find it a little odd that God, omnipotent being who can create entire galaxies in an instant, takes weeks and weeks to flood the planet. Perhaps water is a bit fiddly to create?

How much water was there?

And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered. Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.

Over the top of Mt. Everest then? The volume of water would have been astronomical. Millions of cubic miles. Where did it come from? Where did it go? The polar ice-caps are not big enough. The atmosphere does not contain millions of cubic miles of water.

Using a bit of armchair maths, we can roughly calculate how much water would have been needed to cover the planet to the top of Mt. Everest:
The radius of the Earth is approx. 6370km
The height of Everest above sea-level is approx. 8.8 km
Therefore, the volume of the Earth is approx. 1,082,696,932,000km³, or 1,080 billion cubic kilometers.
The volume of the earth to the height of Everest is 1,087,190,293,000km³
Subtracting the first volume from the second gives approx. 4,493,361,000, or four thousand, five hundred million cubic kilometers of water!
Also, this rain is supposed to have fallen within about 40 days. That means that there would have been about 220 metres of rainfall every day over the entire planet (8800/40 = 220)! A few centimetres in a day is considered to be extremely heavy rain.



Many Ark-theorists claim that scale models of the Ark have been built according to the Biblical specifications, and found to be extremely sea-worthy in test-tanks. I hope that these tests also attempted to simulate the correct amount of rainfall by aiming several high-pressure fire-hoses directly at the model.

Assuming it was fresh water (as it rained) this would have severely diluted the oceans, causing devastation among the marine creatures. Ask anyone with a marine fish-tank just how sensitive reef-fish and corals are to changes in water conditions. Virtually all sea-life that could not stand brackish water would have been destroyed.

How did so many plants survive being submerged in brackish water for so long? Again, many plants are quite sensitive to conditions. Take some of your plants and leave them submerged in the bath or a pond for a year and see how they do. I wonder how MJ made it through then? Must have had it in the Arks greenhouse along with all the other plants needed for the millions of species on board.

Then, after the waters subside (where to?) there are still more problems with the story. What happened to all the corpses of the countless numbers of animals and humans that died? Surely there would have been terrible plague and disease caused by all that rotting meat.
Many sea-creatures would have been deposited in places they could not normally reach - inland lakes etc. Is there any evidence of marine fish skeletons being found in high, freshwater lake beds?

One imaginative way of explaining away the water is that the Earth was a lot flatter back then - the mountains were very low and the seas very shallow. After the Flood, God raised the mountains and sank the ocean floors, reducing the land area and creating space for the water to drain away to. As usual, there is no evidence to support this notion, and it also raises more questions.
For example, how did the deep-ocean sea creatures come about? There are plenty of fish than can only survive at the great pressures on the ocean bottoms, the abyssal plains. These could not have existed before the Flood, as the oceans were apparently too shallow. Maybe they evolved after the Flood (in an incredibly short time)? Maybe Satan created them (after all, they are all really ugly with lots of teeth)? Funny how creationists use evolution (and other branches of science) when it suits them, but denounce it as Satanic Lies the rest of the time...

Many claims are made for sighting of the remains of the Ark in the mountains of Turkey. These Ark-pieces are supposed to be about nine thousand feet up the side of one precipitous mountain or another (usually Ararat). Now, these mountains are not gently rolling hills. They're huge great things covered with snow and full of jagged crevices. The mountain-goats, birds and flying squirrels could have probably got down safely (as long as they didn't freeze or starve on the way), but elephants, penguins, camels and crocodiles are not noted for their natural mountaineering ability.

[ddrew]

I saw you in another thread talking about how God gave you free will, since you believe that, could you explain away the points I made here.

http://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=2530109&postcount=8

[Anti]

Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.

I am not arguing with your wonderfully erudite posting above, but for the sake of those of us who don't try to do miraculous backflips in order to make sense of ancient texts, I would like to point out that mountains is a mistranslation of the Hebrew word harîm which - in this context - would be better translated to mean hills.

A literal translation from Hebrew is "Five ten cubits upward rose the waters and they covered the hills." The tops of the hills in the clause "and they covered the hills" were less than 15 cubits above the normal water level during the annual inundation and were therefore covered when the water rose 15 cubits higher. "Under the whole sky" means within Noah's visible horizon. All of the hills within Noah's visible horizon were covered by the water when the river rose 15 cubits. If the flood water had been more than ten thousand cubits deep, the authors of Genesis would have said so. Fifteen cubits is consistent with a local flood.

(Last paragraph is a paraphrase of this link (http://www.noahs-ark-flood.com/). Emphasis mine.)

[Kizzattack]

Someone said God gives us free will? Free will isn't free will if some Biblical tyrant is threatening you with eternal hellfire for not complying with his rules and commands. The Judeo-Christian God's version of free will is, "If you don't do what I say, I will torture you 'till the end of time."

[Anti]

The Judeo-Christian God's version of free will is, "If you don't do what I say, I will torture you 'till the end of time."

Not to mention that if you posit a god that is omniscient (all knowing) and omnipotent (all powerful) the best you could hope for is the ILLUSION of free will, since your every thought and action would've been predetermined by God prior to having created the universe, and therefore unchangeable by you. Even when you THINK you've changed your mind, you've only continued to follow the path laid down for you when creation began.

[Kizzattack]

Not to mention that if you posit a god that is omniscient (all knowing) and omnipotent (all powerful) the best you could hope for is the ILLUSION of free will, since your every thought and action would've been predetermined by God prior to having created the universe, and therefore unchangeable by you. Even when you THINK you've changed your mind, you've only continued to follow the path laid down for you when creation began.

Which brings me to another discrepancy I have: if God is omnipotent and omniscient, and he has his divine plan for everyone, why does he create people with the full knowledge that he'll be sending them to hell? Could he not just make people that will go to heaven? He can stop people going to hell, and do whatever he wants (he is God after all, and omnipotent), and he loves us, so why does he make souls that he's ultimately just going to throw in his divine bin?

It doesn't make sense to me, which is why I have a hard time understanding why anybody believes in the Bible. Maybe it's just me being Autistic, but I have a hard time finding much in the Bible that adds up.

[Anti]

It doesn't make sense to me, which is why I have a hard time understanding why anybody believes in the Bible. Maybe it's just me being Autistic, but I have a hard time finding much in the Bible that adds up.

It's not autism. It's just that there's not much in the bible that adds up if you try to interpret it literally. It's like saying that the places in the Iliad really existed, so therefore the entire story of the Iliad is 100% gospel truth. In those days, people used metaphor and fact interchangeably. Ideas were what mattered and truth was subjective.

Most people who insist that the bible is 100% factual haven't read the whole thing cover to cover, like I have. They pick and choose the portions that agree with whatever they WANT to believe and then claim that the parts that contradict it are merely misinterpretations.

[Machine Elf]

Darwin is dead, evolution continues on regardless of men and religions.

Darwin came up with a testable idea. Much of his commentary on his own idea was completely wrong. But the idea is correct.

But that evolution happens, that everything, not just biological species, but chemicals, molecules, rocks, landscapes, the planets, suns, solar systems, galaxies, the whole of existence as we know it appears to be constantly evolving, the preferred structural form of reality visibly being filamentary and mycelia-like in nature. Things will tend to come together then change and disperse, to change and come together again.

[japican]

I do not understand evolution
Why would humans stop evoluting wouldn't we like start changing why did we not start changing or like mutating to something different?
it just doesn't make sense

[baet]

wheres sum rebuttal or opposing rationale for the absurd story of noahs ark?

these stories were meant to fool illiterate peasants of the dark ages. how anyone whole heartidly believes them today is beyond me. i guess its the faith thing huh

[Machine Elf]

Humans are still evolving.

Humans some day will go extinct. Whether our descendants survive or not, they will surely evolve if they do, and over time it will be safe to say they are not homo sapiens sapiens anymore and are another species, and our species is now simply relegated to a past echo. If humans manage to survive another 25 thousand, 50 thousand, 100 thousand years (probably not at this rate), they will surely evolve beyond homo sapiens sapiens as we are today.

I feel in fact in order to curb our own extinction we must evolve much sooner than this (less than 5,000 years, even 500 years). Homo sapiens sapiens have outlived their time on this planet. It is time to evolve or extinction will be how nature deals with us.

[japican]

well i havn't seen any evoloved homo sapiens

[GMT]

we are so evolved as a species that we have brought a halt to the purest form of evolution. The process still continues though now in a new direction, or has rather been split into 2. We have one group of the rich beautifull people who breed within their own group. And we have the folks who live their lives having kids one after another doing nothing but. We do ofcourse have the people who fall inbetween these categories, but with the power being in the hands of the first group, and being outbred by the second group, the future of the middle group is not a secure one. We will end up with 2 races of people, no longer based on skin colour or national boundaries, but on genetic quality. Has anyone ever seen the film or read the book time machine? That may not actually be so far off our long term future as the gap between the important 2 breeding groups widens.

[Anti]

I do not understand evolution
Why would humans stop evoluting wouldn't we like start changing why did we not start changing or like mutating to something different?
it just doesn't make sense

We haven't stopped evoluting. (sic) What your not taking into account is the MILLIONS OF GENERATIONS involved. Gradual, perhaps imperceptible changes over many, many, many generations result in offspring that is different than the forebearers.

What do you suppose breeders of dogs and cats (and other animals and plants) are doing if not deliberately selecting traits that they desire to reproduce, while deliberately weeding out traits that they don't want? They do this by breeding animals together that possess the traits they are seeking.

Many of us on this forum do the same with cannabis plants.

[ureapwhatusow]

god in all religions talks to man in terms relative to man at that point in time

notice there is a common denominator

ill break it down into simpler terms for everyone

we are designed to evolve into our own gods.

So since we exist therefore god exists, and he is we

but we have the free will to be apathetic miscreants who need an excuse to embrace humanity

Any religion that pontificates humanity is alright by me, and practitioner that uses it to deceive is not

do i need to understand what makes a person give a fuck or not or shouldl i really focus on whether they simply do give a fuck about the world or not

or maybe they are in the process of discovery

whats so fucking tough about that

and why does every one the need to justify or debunk Gods existence

why be afraid to just find out

God or not

in the end I guarantee

you will reap what you sow

[pray4pistils]

To me, it's a foolhardy adventure to battle science with belief. It's far more reasonable to just say "This is what I believe; I don't need any proof" because that's the nature of faith itself. Still, I really hope that Teucer or any other bible thumpers will take the challenge to defend their fundamentalist/literalist interpretations. If you're so convinced... then, how about some *reasoned* discussion? How do you sustain your faith without wearing blinders to the natural world?

As for me, my agnosticism drives me to search for and consider alternative points of view. If I ever meet my maker, he/she/it should know that I gave it all a whirl with this intellect that I was granted. It ain't my fault if my own mental apparatus won't accept what it deems to be nonsense! This brain of mine is in a perpetual state of existential quandry (but not crisis). :)

[lost in a sea]

creationalists are now saying that yes dinosaurs did exist, but they were only around for one day!! 6000 years ago!! and man was walking around next to them fully clothed and reading the bible, crazy shit but doesnt creationalism just exist in pockets around the U.S?? i really dont think its prevelent anywhere else in the world.

evolution requires population selection pressure's, in order to go in any paticular direction.

nowadays ,as a population, we are not mortaly affected by any one selection pressure.

so although evolution can never stop, it is now not helping us survive.

as GMT said the only major selection processes around today, are skinny, pritty people that are becoming more elitist, and working class people that have kids with anyone.

[lost in a sea]

one more thing is that:

before penicillin and all the other cillins were around, we were killed by the droves by viruses and bacteriums.

microbes used to be a selection pressure, as the people that survived had a greater ability to fight the disease.

now we have pharmaceutical companies producing drugs that maintain our evolutionary armsrace with microbes.

you have heard of mrsa?? multi-resistant-staphalococcus-aureus. it became multi resitant by being exposed to all the antibiotics and winning (through its own evolution)

many common microbes are multi resistant to some extent, and in the near future there may not be a single antibiotic that definitly works.

the population is too great, and we have been short changing microbes for a hundred years, we may have to start paying what we owe, with our lives.

[Weedman Herb]

Five ten cubits would be 50 cubits Not 15 ... you used your forearm to measure things ... it seems all people used to be of similar size back then ... or I would have certainly had a long armed person measure my plot when the tax man came around ... and a short armed ReMax agent ...

[zeddius2]

I do not understand evolution
Why would humans stop evoluting wouldn't we like start changing why did we not start changing or like mutating to something different?
it just doesn't make sense

we are at the end of the evolution chain right now

you will probably not see a physical change in us for a long time because we need to need or want a physical change(life or death type situation or just how people chose mates)
For example, beautiful people will have more children.

as for the life or death situation..
example, people immune to certain diseases will live and have children others will die.

lets say the entire world floods tomorrow and there is no land left. in thousands or millions of years some of us will probably have physical traits relating to a fish.

we as humans probably wont respond well to people that are different(just thinking of history) so physical different people will probably not get mates or be killed. just think of the Holocaust or the genocide in Africa

we have an ability no other creature has. we can manipulate our dna. im certain this will be manipulated sometime in our evolution.

[N. Accumbens]

Adaptation
An ability to make the best of what you have, or the knowledge of how to change it!

The humans which will prevail are those whom understand and be-LIVE in empathy, kindness, and universal good!

Good in all people.. in muslims, in asians... even (and most prominently) in those that dared to go against societies rules, and inter-bred.

Everyone has good in them... and in order to survive the turbulent times ahead... where fertilizer has been disappearing for years w/o trace by the truckloads... and in times when a mixed race ruler, with a masters thesis in marxism or some such philosophy; says no to the chosen ones...who btw have not chosen us in return...

...and the struggle for money or power- who really wins?
No one!
Leaders should lead by example!
They should exemplify their group, not through worldly possessions, but through ideals and actions.
Giving to those that come in peace, and forgiving those that come w/ war-like tendencies.

This is where humanity becomes goodly. When the nature we have been blessed w/ for survival (for it harnesses this positive energy we speak of) slowly mends us to evolve to be greater beings. Where we find that the aggressive tendencies have maimed the psyche's or physiques of those that were to father the next batch of elites.

Magnetic bipolars south and north, opposite elements which are still drawn together yet push apart..depending on the side they choose to show!

Then they come so close the energy becomes stronger and stronger... till seeds fall from the sky!

Karma will be stronger, time will be more powerful, and space will become constricted...

Then the good will prevail...

^^^but just so ya'll know it wasn't me who said this...it has all been written many times b4, in many languages.... and some of us just pick it up...right out of the thin air...the collective unconscious... one for all all for one!!!

N. Accumbens and the dopaminergenic pathways...

NAcc
:joint:

[nepalnt21]

why the "vs"???

is it hard to believe that they are inseperable??? like science and religion.

[pray4pistils]

why the "vs"???

is it hard to believe that they are inseperable??? like science and religion.

The "vs." is inevitably there whenever a theist or atheist posits the argument because it's a test of their view "against" another. In my opinion, religion is man's construct -an outwards manifestation of a culture's values. Spirituality is entirely different. That's a person's inner sense of and relationship with God.

I also see no reason to divorce science from religion. Ultimate truth must be able to accomodate hard science as well as embrace what we call the "supernatural"... whatever that really is. In my opinion, the problems stem largely from both theists and atheists claiming ultimate knowledge. That's what's so ironic about both positions. They're more alike than they are different!

[ddrew]

Myself, I'm just talking about a giant ark with pairs of all the worlds animals, fish, insects, etc... being driven around the completely flooded planet for a year by a 600 year old guy . Ultimate truth about that? It didn't happen
And dinosaurs have been extinct for 70 million years
And the planet is not 10'000 years old.
I think that stuff can, and has been proved beyond a reasonable doubt.

[Lazyman]

The difference between science and faith is this:

Science seeks to find answers using facts.

Faith starts with answers they like than seeks facts to support them.

Flawed methodology from the very get-go.

[Lazyman]

we are at the end of the evolution chain right now

you will probably not see a physical change in us for a long time because we need to need or want a physical change(life or death type situation or just how people chose mates)
For example, beautiful people will have more children.

as for the life or death situation..
example, people immune to certain diseases will live and have children others will die.

lets say the entire world floods tomorrow and there is no land left. in thousands or millions of years some of us will probably have physical traits relating to a fish.

we as humans probably wont respond well to people that are different(just thinking of history) so physical different people will probably not get mates or be killed. just think of the Holocaust or the genocide in Africa

we have an ability no other creature has. we can manipulate our dna. im certain this will be manipulated sometime in our evolution.

We are still evolving, man today is already much taller than previous generations, and sadly, more low-IQ people are having kids today than smart people. We will be a planet of tall, pretty retards in a couple generations.

[Centrum]

Did i miss something or wasn't evolution proven through the fruit fly experiments ?
Can't remember exactly what it was called just remember reading the study.

Evolution to me just feels like common sense.

[Centrum]

The difference between science and faith is this:

Science seeks to find answers using facts.

Faith starts with answers they like than seeks facts to support them.

Flawed methodology from the very get-go.

I Like that! Is that Your quote ?
Very good saying!

[Lazyman]

Not my quote per se, I've heard something similar before and it struck me as a bit profound.

My other favorite response to "evolution is just a theory."

"So is gravity, but you don't see me bouncing off the ionosphere because I don't believe in it."

[Kizzattack]

Did i miss something or wasn't evolution proven through the fruit fly experiments ?
Can't remember exactly what it was called just remember reading the study.


No matter what proof is available, and what evidence is available, if people don't want to accept evolution as a fact, they'll find any way possible to discount it.

And come to think of it, that fruit fly experiment sounds familiar. I might have read about it before.

[nepalnt21]

Did i miss something or wasn't evolution proven through the fruit fly experiments ?
Can't remember exactly what it was called just remember reading the study.

Evolution to me just feels like common sense.
of course evolution exists (even if it has not been prove, nothing has been proven), but what people have a hard time coming to terms with is the idea that they evolved from apes (which is funny, because humans are apes)

personally, i think we were planted here from our highly advanced, dying ancestors and inter-mingled with the locals.

[Lazyman]

of course evolution exists (even if it has not been prove, nothing has been proven), but what people have a hard time coming to terms with is the idea that they evolved from apes (which is funny, because humans are apes)

personally, i think we were planted here from our highly advanced, dying ancestors and inter-mingled with the locals.

Just to clarify a common misconception, the theory of evolution states that homo sapiens and apes evolved from a common ancestor, no one has ever claimed humans evolved from apes. Just shooting down a creationist argument or talking point before it comes up. ;)

[pray4pistils]

We are still evolving, man today is already much taller than previous generations,

This is not scientific proof of evolution. Heights in developing nations are lower than those in the "first" world. Within industrialized societies those that are malnourished show lower birth weights, lower heights, etc. If we control for these variables you see much less variation. Evolution doesn't occur over a few generations. It takes eons. :2cents:

[Mickymouse]

Evolution is an obsevation like all sience.you observe gravity you cant prove it but you drop an apple it will allways fall even if you belive in it or not

[zeddius2]

We are still evolving, man today is already much taller than previous generations, and sadly, more low-IQ people are having kids today than smart people. We will be a planet of tall, pretty retards in a couple generations.

lol understood but no... we wont be a bunch of pretty retards in a couple generations...thats ridiculous. if you look at the growth in science, communication etc, you will see that we are getting smarter. the old philosophy of being a jack of all trades has changed to specializing. plus we are just not as scared today as we were in the past which is an awesome motivator to learn. even if i had statistics in front of me telling me otherwise i would have to contribute it to motivation not genetics.

[ddrew]

lol! No ddrew, I haven't been eaten by a young earth Dinosaur. I just have other things going on in my life. Amazing huh.

=)

Hey Teucer, where are you?
Funny how you had all this time to post like crazy before, but now that your "Literal Ark" is sinking, and your "young earth dinosaurs" have been shown to be 70 million years old, you suddenly are much to busy with all these "other things going on in your life" to post, oh well.

[Quentin]

Don`t you think it`s hot?

That Man was Created in the image of GOD.

[Anti]

Don`t you think it`s hot?

That Man was Created in the image of GOD.


I'm not sure what's "hot" about it...

But I've always thought that "image" was a misunderstanding or literal translation of the word.


I'm pretty sure that if I were to rewrite and publish the bible, I would change that to:

Man was created in the imagination of GOD.

[pray4pistils]

Hey Teucer, where are you?

I second that. Where is Teucer with reasoned input to this discussion? When theists back away from entirely rational and open-minded debates... it confirms my suspicions that such folks are entirely irrational and close-minded. It seems that the only intellectuals are the skeptics.

By the way, that's one of the reasons why I admire the Jesuits. These monks are happy to debate the existence of God, drink beer, etc. I doubt I'll be joining their ranks any time soon, but it gives me hope for the faithful.

:2cents:

[ddrew]

It is the thread HE started to defend Creationism after all.

[ddrew]

Since he's understandably MIA, maybe we should turn it into a place for posting Jesus comics and such.

[ddrew]

Bummer for jesus

[Kizzattack]

Bummer for jesus

Yeah, being born on Christmas day must really suck, unless he got double the amount of presents when he was a child.

Check this out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YxolTgw2xs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69qXVcJG_YU

Not sure whether you're familiar with the concept of Ali G, but it's the same guy that does Borat and Bruno. Ali G was basically invented to get intelligent people to answer the most stupid questions. It's hilarious.

[Anti]

Not sure whether you're familiar with the concept of Ali G ... Ali G was basically invented to get intelligent people to answer the most stupid questions. It's hilarious.

I'm familiar with him (though i have not seen any of the movies, only saw the Ali G show a few times on HoBO back in the day. I hadn't seen this clip, however.

In his defense, I must say that the Catholic priest did a remarkable job of keeping his cool under the circumstances. I expected him to have a stroke.

[ddrew]

I'm familiar with him (though i have not seen any of the movies, only saw the Ali G show a few times on HoBO back in the day. I hadn't seen this clip, however.

In his defense, I must say that the Catholic priest did a remarkable job of keeping his cool under the circumstances. I expected him to have a stroke.

I was waiting for him to snap too, lol.

[ddrew]

Well, since the mighty Teucer appears to be vanquished, I am planting the Darwin fish, and declaring victory for the Evolutionists!

[Kizzattack]

Well, since the mighty Teucer appears to be vanquished, I am planting the Darwin fish, and declaring victory for the Evolutionists!

Sieg Heil! :biglaugh:


Haha! I found another Ali G interview with Kent Hovind and a scientist. Nice to see Hovind getting a taste of his own medicine and being made to answer questions even more stupid than his own. It makes for a funny evolution vs. creation debate too. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eB5VXJXxnNU

It's a shame Hovind is in jail now. He makes for a good wind-up target.

[dragongrower]

Haha! Ali G!

Go Go Go evolutionists!!

[KMK0420]

I believe in evolution - to a point. And i am christian.

Do i believe we came from pond scum?

Fuck no!

Do i think there were primitive humans and the breath of life/emotion/spirituality was put into man at a certain point? Maybe.

Problem is people assume the literal 7 day creation of the earth. Widely known that by either misinterpretation or just the fact that 1 day may mean 10,000 years...you don't know by what scale FOR SURE.

I don't take every word in the OT/bible literally. But i believe in 1 thing that matters - Jesus Christ existed, was the son of the only living God, died for our sins and rose on the third day.

Thats all that matters.

[lost in a sea]

the thing is the stuff supposedly happening on those seperate "days", was happening and has happened all at the same time ever since creation 13 billion years ago.

all happening in a slow, steady scientific, and measurable way. i dont need any mysticism to explain the world around me or any aspect of it.

[3dDream]

The religions are nice because they make people unique from every other creature on the planet even though our DNA contains similar code.

I can live my life just fine not caring who made it... however, I can care for it.

[ddrew]

Do i believe we came from pond scum?

Fuck no!

Do i think there were primitive humans and the breath of life/emotion/spirituality was put into man at a certain point? Maybe.

Problem is people assume the literal 7 day creation of the earth. Widely known that by either misinterpretation or just the fact that 1 day may mean 10,000 years...you don't know by what scale FOR SURE.

I don't take every word in the OT/bible literally. But i believe in 1 thing that matters - Jesus Christ existed, was the son of the only living God, died for our sins and rose on the third day.

Thats all that matters.
Hi Km, that's all great and everything, but would you mind explaining why you feel your right?
And how a dead body came back to life?
So you accept some things in the bible as true and others as not?
Hows that work? God was confused about some of the things he said, but you in your infinite wisdom can sort through and recognise his mistakes???
It's a Debate thread, it's nice that you have faith, good for you, but if you want to post here about it, don't be surprised when we ask you to support your beliefs.

[Anti]

Problem is people assume the literal 7 day creation of the earth. Widely known that by either misinterpretation or just the fact that 1 day may mean 10,000 years...you don't know by what scale FOR SURE.

You say you don't take every word in the bible literally. So step back for a moment and think about why the hebrews might've said that God would've created the world in seven days. Most ancient calenders were based on the cycles of the moon, because it was much easier to see that the moon changed its faces and returned back to the full moon every 28 days or so. So most early calendars were based on the moon, not the sun.

If you divide 28 days by the four "distinct" phases of the moon you come up with a number. I'll let you do that math for yourself. That number would need to be explained and encoded within your myth, since this particular myth is a myth about the BEGINNING OF TIME.

Moral: The seven days of creation were a way of codifying and understanding the ancient wisdom regarding the changes in the moon. People who kept time based on the moon's phases would be able to watch the moon and know: when it was time to plant; When it was time to harvest; When it was time to store.

It is unnecessary to suppose that seven "God days" really means 80,000,000 years or something. By stepping back a bit and taking the obscuring lenses of religious literalism off, we find that the picture comes into much sharper focus.

I don't take every word in the OT/bible literally. But i believe in 1 thing that matters - Jesus Christ existed, was the son of the only living God, died for our sins and rose on the third day.

His existence as a human on earth is on shakey ground, if you take the time to read the histories available. If you read enough of them, you will come upon the curious notion that around the time of the first century, there were several people claiming to be the jewish messiah and that there were many cults in many parts of the world that worshipped the divine "Sun of God" and that this God was born of a virgin, performed miracles, suffered and died on a cross and was born again three days later.

This link here (http://members.cox.net/deleyd/religion/bibleastrology.html) is to a relatively short article that was taken from a book on Astrological Symbolism that was published in 1907! It explains many of the ways that the life story of Jesus can be shown to parallel the apparent movement of the Sun through earth's skies.

There are many other pages that have many details that this one leaves out, but it's a good place to start for anyone with little to no experience of it.

One could also type in "Jesus as Sun God" in google and find many, many, many other examples.

[Brushtail]

The bible is a very interesting topic and the heart of evidence when considering creationism.
We are in an age of correctness, with the advent of modern science we seek knowledge in its most "correct" form. Science is not infallible, if you have a look at the history of science and scientific theory there have been major shifts in the way of thinking, and gradual improvements on the "scientific process" to ensure a larger degree of correctness in our scientific knowledge.

It is the scientific process that provides credibility to scientific findings.

The bible is a product of oral tradition, countless translations and several re-writings. As a firm believer in assessing the truth of what i read, it is hard to believe that the bible is untainted by the process it has undergone. If you remember playing Chinese whispers, what was said originally is totally different in the end.

Maybe im just a born skeptic, but religion just doesnt click with me. I suppose the only way i would believe in it is if it was innate, it certainly isn't detrimental to survival.

b

[DonkeyPunch]

I don't see creation and evolution as mutually exclusive. Then again, when I read a book, I am enlightened enough to consider the message, and not necessarily the most literal interpretation.

[nepalnt21]

Creation=Evolution